Why do people think the Others are morally grey?

[Tyrion1991]

Me and my friends were talking about the books and we got on to talking about the Others and one of them said, "oh yeah, its probably going to end in a truce with the Others.". I didn't say anything at the time, he may as well have added "then they can join the Starks and fight Dany with her dragons".

 

Theres a few major problems that I have with this view and I simply don't see how GRRM could say the Others are morally grey. To list a few of the big reasons.

 

* They have actually committed genocide on the Giants. Even if you were to argue, as some people insist, that this is all because we the evil humans committed some monstrous act that has brought a vengeful response down from this other power. What do the giants have to do with fire magic or humanity? Why kill all the animals? This seems like destruction for its own sake.

 

* Theres a deeply cynical attempt to compare the atrocities committed by various people on the show to the actions of the Others. This wilfully ignores the fact that this is all completely indiscriminate killing of men, women and children. Again, even if humanity has somehow committed some sort of offence against the Others or their God, this is not a proportionate response. Some people point to them "letting the Wildlings go" and "letting the Nights Watch go". Again, that can be explained away as them wanting the Wildlings to kill as many Northmen as possible to clear a path. Its also quite possible that the Others simply failed to kill the Nights Watch at the Fist. I mean Tywin Lannister did not order every man, woman and child in the Riverlands killed. Not every Lannister and Stark soldier is a sociopath. We see a lot of nuance in peoples behaviour and Tywin stops once he achieves his political goals. Conquering Westeros and turning everyone into zombies; not really comparable.

 

* Theres some attempt to argue that the Others are merely responding to the rise of Fire magic in the world. So, of course, Daenerys and her dragons must die to set the world to right and restore balance to ice and fire. Few issues with that:

 

1 - The Wildlings have nothing to do with Fire Magic and neither does most of humanity. Seems pretty evil to kill entire nations just to go kill Dany.

2 - Dragons, Fire Priests and the like have been shown as being capable of being integrated into a functioning human society. How can these things be more evil? What has made these things evil has been the people using them. Case in point Thoros vs Melisandre. No such variation among the Others.

3 - Dragons and Fire Priests have been around for millennia. Aegon had dragons in Westeros but no move was made by the Others. Its just as likely that the rise in fire magic and Danys dragons are the response of fire magic/lord of light to the aggressive actions of the Others; if not more so given Melisandre's behaviour and the various prophecies.

4 - If some humans meddling in Fire Magic was really going to cause a second doom of valyria and so the Others are trying to kill humanity to stop this from happening why wouldn't they have just talked this out and why focus their attention on killing factions not connected to fire magic?

5 - Why not make common cause with all the factions opposed to the worship of fire and the use of magic?

 

* People confuse the warging and children of the forest with the Others. This is important, because obviously these things are shown as good and associated with the Starks. Since its a story of ice and fire, many people make the assumption that a balance needs to be established between the magic of Ice and Fire. The problem is that this assumes that this means the Others are on the same side as all the people who use ice magic, that the Others aren't an evil perversion of this magic and that the ultimate threat comes from fire magic. This is where theories involving Dany killing her dragons will end the Long Night come in; since obviously the problem is the rise of fire magic. However I think this is getting it the wrong way round. The threat is the extreme of the ice magic represented by the Others and the common cause needs to be made between the moderate ice and fire groups. There probably is some insane stuff in Ashai; but we're far too late in the books to ever see any of that stuff.

 

I personally think that the Others are a supernatural force that are simply moving with the "Seasons of Magic" as ice and fire waxes and wanes. So as magic returns into the world, both forces are pushing against the Other.

 

Spoiler

If the show is to believed then they are really just automata and a destructive force that the Children unwittingly unleashed out of desperation. An allegory against turning to such destructive and violent methods.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The Others are not human, and thus perhaps not subject to concepts such as human morality. They have reasons for what they are doing. We don't know what those reasons are but they are valid according to the Others' worldview.

Keep in mind that it's possible the Others who are attacking are a rogue group, and the rest of the Others are just as eager to stop them as the humans are.

Without knowing the whole story, we can't make accurate judgments on this.

[Commander Jon Snow]

I agree. To the characters (and us the readers), the Others are basically straight up bad guys that need to be stopped. I mean GRRM has compared them to climate change for crying out loud. The real story with them is the politics it will take to deal with this problem and whether or not humanity can bound together, not some hidden complexities within the Others themselves

[DominusNovus]

Given how much Lovecraftian influence there is under the covers, isn't it reasonable to assume that they're simply beyond our understanding, like so many dangerous forces in Lovecraft's works?

[Tyrion1991]

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Others are not human, and thus perhaps not subject to concepts such as human morality. They have reasons for what they are doing. We don't know what those reasons are but they are valid according to the Others' worldview.

Keep in mind that it's possible the Others who are attacking are a rogue group, and the rest of the Others are just as eager to stop them as the humans are.

Without knowing the whole story, we can't make accurate judgments on this.

 

If they were a rogue group then why do none of the myths make reference to these good others and why haven't they tried to prevent the expansion of the Others? 

Plus, from a story telling standpoint, we already had Bran go out seeking the aid of those knowledgeable in ice magic; the Children. They ARE the "good" ice magic people trying to stop the Others. So it's unlikely that there are any more allies.

 

I think we are splitting hairs here. Evil implies self awareness and intent. Being monstrous implies something mindlessly destructive and inhuman. But in either case, both represent something that within the world of Tolkien is really two sides of the same coin. They are a monstrous, existential threat to all life and have to be opposed. I do not think the purpose of the Others is to subvert the fantasy trope of the ultimate threat coming to kill everyone. The focus is on our "heroes" and the last alliance. The others simply serve as a situation to deal with IMO.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

See, it's this unfortunate dogma saying that "GRRM doesn't write straight up good and bad guys, everything is gray". The actual text of the books can't disprove the statement - people are willing to spend time arguing that the likes of Ramsay Snow and Gregor Clegane are morally ambiguous. As an alternative save, they argue that nothing ever written could possibly be pure black or pure white. Which, if accepted, renders the claim that "GRRM doesn't write black and white" completely moot.

[lordHodor]

The humans stopped attending the Meetings of Friendship (first tuesday every 123 years on the isles of faces).

Also they broke the sacred truce and settled north of the wall.

We made them an ultimatum ("if you don´t withdraw within the next 513 years...")

It´s as if they don´t even read their mail. 

We are scared. There are a million humans, and only 20 of us (not counting undead pets).

What else are we supposed to do?

 

 

[Dragonsbone]

As to the black and white discussion, I think people overinterpret it a little bit. George RR Martin has said several times that he does not believe a person can be solely good or bad. He has even said that even the figures we hold for completely bad, had their moments of the good inside them. He took Adolf Hitler as an example, because it is said that he loved dogs. So if someone says that even Hitler was a very gray character in his opinion, you should not overanalyse this White and Grey stuff. I am not blaming GRRM of course, it is just that his definition of bad does not exist in our world that way. Most of us would identify Hitler as a bad guy if he was a character in the novels. It is just a definition matter. You can not derive anything out of that. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

I don't get it. We don't know much about the Others to make these judgement. In the show they kill black brothers and wildlings who venture north. It could be that they take these people to be invaders (sort of) who come to their land. The Others are coming south because of winter. As someone mentioned, the Others are not human. So we may never understand why they do the things they do. But we do know that the Others are a great danger to humans in Westeros, and possibly humans in all the world. So from out POV they are really bad. But from their POV, it could just be way things are. Like Death, neither good nor bad. 

[Tyrion1991]

4 hours ago, lordHodor said:

The humans stopped attending the Meetings of Friendship (first tuesday every 123 years on the isles of faces).

Also they broke the sacred truce and settled north of the wall.

We made them an ultimatum ("if you don´t withdraw within the next 513 years...")

It´s as if they don´t even read their mail. 

We are scared. There are a million humans, and only 20 of us (not counting undead pets).

What else are we supposed to do?

 

 

 

Then like rational people they would try to contact the humans and sort this out through diplomacy. They wouldn't remain aloof for thousands of years and then start killing people oblivious to pacts they never signed and which likely had nothing to do with the Others. To attack without caring to make such investigations and dialogue is evil in of itself.

Also how does that excuse committing genocide on the Giants? Surely they were innocent in breaking any pact?

[cgrav]

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If they were a rogue group then why do none of the myths make reference to these good others

 

It's hard to speculate about what likely doesn't exist, but in real Norse mythology, the word Other (Othr) refers to a being filled with the shamanic rage of Odin (Othinn), some of whom, called Berserkers, go on rogue, uncontrollable killing sprees.

[norwaywolf123]

19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Others are not human, and thus perhaps not subject to concepts such as human morality. They have reasons for what they are doing. We don't know what those reasons are but they are valid according to the Others' worldview.

Keep in mind that it's possible the Others who are attacking are a rogue group, and the rest of the Others are just as eager to stop them as the humans are.

Without knowing the whole story, we can't make accurate judgments on this.

How do you know that the others are no human? They might be a different humanoid species though with common ancestry with the "humans".

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If they were a rogue group then why do none of the myths make reference to these good others and why haven't they tried to prevent the expansion of the Others? 

Plus, from a story telling standpoint, we already had Bran go out seeking the aid of those knowledgeable in ice magic; the Children. They ARE the "good" ice magic people trying to stop the Others. So it's unlikely that there are any more allies.

 

I think we are splitting hairs here. Evil implies self awareness and intent. Being monstrous implies something mindlessly destructive and inhuman. But in either case, both represent something that within the world of Tolkien is really two sides of the same coin. They are a monstrous, existential threat to all life and have to be opposed. I do not think the purpose of the Others is to subvert the fantasy trope of the ultimate threat coming to kill everyone. The focus is on our "heroes" and the last alliance. The others simply serve as a situation to deal with IMO.

 

First of all we're talking about beings who haven't been seen in 8,000 years. When you consider that the records that are extant were written by maesters centuries after the events of the Long Night, it should be plain that there's no way we have all the information. 

Second, the split would have occurred AFTER the last Long Night and thus the humans wouldn't know about it. Just as an example: Night's King could have fled north of the Wall (we never were told he was killed) and could have spent centuries recruiting Others to his cause, quietly, and without the sanction of the Other Leadership.

And Bran is not done learning yet. We don't know what all he's going to find out, and we will find out through him. The CotF are not "ice magic people" at all. They are earth magic beings.

Within the world of Tolkien? This is not Tolkien's series. This is George R. R. Martin's series. He lives for trope inversion. He's famous for it. He also never gives us everything at once. We learn a little bit here, and a little bit there. That's how he maintains the mysteries. We know more about House Dayne than we know about the Others, and we don't know much about House Dayne. When George wants us to know what's really going on with the ice side of the story, he'll tell us. Until then the best we can do is speculate.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

How do you know that the others are no human? They might be a different humanoid species though with common ancestry with the "humans".

Because the author implied it.

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

First of all we're talking about beings who haven't been seen in 8,000 years. When you consider that the records that are extant were written by maesters centuries after the events of the Long Night, it should be plain that there's no way we have all the information. 

Second, the split would have occurred AFTER the last Long Night and thus the humans wouldn't know about it. Just as an example: Night's King could have fled north of the Wall (we never were told he was killed) and could have spent centuries recruiting Others to his cause, quietly, and without the sanction of the Other Leadership.

And Bran is not done learning yet. We don't know what all he's going to find out, and we will find out through him. The CotF are not "ice magic people" at all. They are earth magic beings.

Within the world of Tolkien? This is not Tolkien's series. This is George R. R. Martin's series. He lives for trope inversion. He's famous for it. He also never gives us everything at once. We learn a little bit here, and a little bit there. That's how he maintains the mysteries. We know more about House Dayne than we know about the Others, and we don't know much about House Dayne. When George wants us to know what's really going on with the ice side of the story, he'll tell us. Until then the best we can do is speculate.

 

Genocide isn't morally grey. What the Others did to the Wildlings and Giants constitutes genocide. They murdered tens of thousands and innocent women and children. There simply isn't any reason that exists to justify that. 

 

It it isn't a trope to say that genocide and mass slaughter is morally repugnant. It's simple human decency and to do otherwise would be to implicitly validate historical examples of it. If GRRM wanted the Others to be morally grey then he wouldn't have them killing thousands of children and exterminating entire species. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@Tyrion1991

The Others are morally grey. I hate to break it to you, but genocide is super common throughout human history. Virtually every major civilization ever has committed genocide in one way or another. You don't even have to go to ancient times. Europeans killed the Native Americans. Japan killed and raped so many Chinese people during WW2. The Germans killed millions of people, mostly Jews. The Rwanda genocide was only 23 years ago.

Please list for me the things that the Others have actually done so far that makes them worse than, say, Tywin. Tywin, a man who trapped an entire giant group of men, women, and children underground in the mines of Castamere and drowned them. And then they wrote a catchy song about it.

I absolutely think the war against the Others will end in a truce. And they are almost certainly mutated humans, like the COTF, the giants, the Valyrians, and the squishers. How else could they possibly sire "terrible half-human" children?

EDIT: Also you aren't supposed to mention show spoilers here, even under a spoiler tag. So you should probably edit your OP if you don't want the thread taken down.  

[Ser Petyr Parker]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Genocide isn't morally grey. What the Others did to the Wildlings and Giants constitutes genocide. They murdered tens of thousands and innocent women and children. There simply isn't any reason that exists to justify that. 

Yeah, but you have to understand that view is the result of being a westerner in the 21st century. Of course it's a bad thing to do, but in some ways it's a quirk of ours to see killing 10,000 people of a specific group as much worse than killing 10,000 random people. There was no Holocaust on Planetos, so they don't have the strong, emotional aversion to anything with a hint of Nazism about it as we do. Please don't think I'm trying to defend genocide in any way, I'm just trying to give a more objective view.

And the Others are not, as far as we know, actually trying to commit genocide. They're just killing the people who are nearest to them, who happen to be Wildlings. As for no reason for it, as a few are saying, remember how their army is made up of dead people? They're recruiting.

Back to moral greyness: So people say humans couldn't have a truce with the Others, because the Others are evil. They must all be killed, or at least severely restricted in their access to "human lands" somehow. From the Others' perspective, doesn't that sound a bit evil? Maybe they're saying to each other "We can't let these humans live. They'll just come back and try to kill us."

And perhaps there's just not room for both humans and Others in Westeros. Maybe the Others need a Long Night. Maybe they'd rather not kill all the humans, but they need to in order to save themselves, and they're not going to let a load of fleshy hot bloods who make weird noises get in the way of their survival.

[Dragonsbone]

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Genocide isn't morally grey. What the Others did to the Wildlings and Giants constitutes genocide. They murdered tens of thousands and innocent women and children. There simply isn't any reason that exists to justify that. 

 

It it isn't a trope to say that genocide and mass slaughter is morally repugnant. It's simple human decency and to do otherwise would be to implicitly validate historical examples of it. If GRRM wanted the Others to be morally grey then he wouldn't have them killing thousands of children and exterminating entire species. 

Again. George RR Martin considers Adolf Hitler, a genocidal mass murderer who killed, gased, built concentration camps and humiliated millions of people as a grey character. This grey character discussion based on GRRM means a shit.

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Genocide isn't morally grey. What the Others did to the Wildlings and Giants constitutes genocide. They murdered tens of thousands and innocent women and children. There simply isn't any reason that exists to justify that. 

 

It it isn't a trope to say that genocide and mass slaughter is morally repugnant. It's simple human decency and to do otherwise would be to implicitly validate historical examples of it. If GRRM wanted the Others to be morally grey then he wouldn't have them killing thousands of children and exterminating entire species. 

Exactly.  The people who say the Others are morally grey fall back on one of two arguments:

1) we don't know enough about them to judge them and we should consider them a humanoid species with their own motivations and factions - latter yet to be seen of course - and to excuse or whitewash all their actions in series to date, up to and including some weird revisionist interpretation or flat out denial of The Long Night (see upthread for this argument in spades)

2) The Others aren't human so we can't judge them by our moral standards 'cos who's to say genocide against other species isn't the height of nobility in theit culture or merely a form of effective pest control.  "Oh, humans, again?  Where did we get to with the myxomatosis again?"

As we are all human and the work is written with our moral compass in mind - how else for the reader to relate to the story or care about its' characters? - the second argument is pretty baffling to me.  The Others slaughter people and raise them as undead.  The subjective human experience of them is that the Others are monstrous and evil and have to be opposed or annihilation follows (see the Long Night).  If that's too simple or "cartoon evil" so be it.

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@Tyrion1991

The Others are morally grey. I hate to break it to you, but genocide is super common throughout human history. Virtually every major civilization ever has committed genocide in one way or another. You don't even have to go to ancient times. Europeans killed the Native Americans. Japan killed and raped so many Chinese people during WW2. The Germans killed millions of people, mostly Jews. The Rwanda genocide was only 23 years ago.

Please list for me the things that the Others have actually done so far that makes them worse than, say, Tywin. Tywin, a man who trapped an entire giant group of men, women, and children underground in the mines of Castamere and drowned them. And then they wrote a catchy song about it.

I absolutely think the war against the Others will end in a truce. And they are almost certainly mutated humans, like the COTF, the giants, the Valyrians, and the squishers. How else could they possibly sire "terrible half-human" children?

EDIT: Also you aren't supposed to mention show spoilers here, even under a spoiler tag. So you should probably edit your OP if you don't want the thread taken down.  

WTF?  Genocide may be an awful feature of human history and it's present (the Yazidis sadly know this all too well) but it doesn't make it or it's perpetrators (or the Others) morally grey.  That shouldn't need saying.

10 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Again. George RR Martin considers Adolf Hitler, a genocidal mass murderer who killed, gased, built concentration camps and humiliated millions of people as a grey character. This grey character discussion based on GRRM means a shit.

I don't believe he said or meant any such thing.  He pointed out that no person is entirely black or white, as in entirely and always sadistic/monstrous or altruistic/benevolent in all their doings.  This is a simple acknowledgment that human charcter is complex not one-dimensional and that a man who sent millions of men, women and children to the gas chambers could nonetheless be kind to his dog or, one would assume, to his lover, Eva Braun.

This does not make Hitler in any way a grey character in GRRM's eyes, i.e. one we should argue over by pointing out his "good deeds" in contrast to his "bad deeds" in trying to make up our minds and reach a judgment about him, it simply shows him to be a human being, albeit one of if not the most reviled ever to have lived (and rightly so).

In general, the confusion over what GRRM means by morally grey and how we should understand that ourselves and apply it in story is astonishing.

[chrisdaw]

It isn't even a relevant question. The moral of the story is the humans should put aside their own differences to face together the threat to their existence, and if they don't they all die. The Others are therefor required to be a straightforward undeniable evil threat, if they're anything less then the moral is lost as they become just another faction to be treated with and understood like any other. It is why he has likened them to a force of nature, both in SSMs and the text too.