Jump to content
Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Yea. When order breaks down and people don't have good options rules get thrown out the window. 

Arya never cared about him being a bastard so that is probably not going to be the reason she doesn't think Jon should be the head of the family. 

Bran just doesn't care at this point. 

Sansa accepted him "your a Stark to me" (6x10) and when she suggests Bran should be lord of Winterfell is shut down by Bran. 

If none of the Stark siblings care about who is the "rightful" ruler why would anyone else.

its possible this also foreshadows how Jon will deal with him being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. If none of his siblings asserted there rights vis-a-vis him, why would he assert his rights against Daenerys? 

I would be interested to know what happens if the rest of the Stark siblings/ northern lords do not agree to bending the knee and following Dany. Will the Stark siblings exert their claim then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I would be interested to know what happens if the rest of the Stark siblings/ northern lords do not agree to bending the knee and following Dany. Will the Stark siblings exert their claim then?

I would think de-facto they would have to since they would be in effect over throwing Jon in order to re-declare independence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Jon finds out his heritage bomb, he's not going to be the PtWP, he's going to be Azor Ahai King Jon who abdicates to Dany swearing allegiance to her as ruler. He'll go fight the good fight against the WW's, die, and Daenerys finds out she's with child...with the prince that was promised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2017 at 4:44 PM, Apoplexy said:

I would be interested to know what happens if the rest of the Stark siblings/ northern lords do not agree to bending the knee and following Dany. Will the Stark siblings exert their claim then?

I think if there was going to be friction on this issue it would have been obvious. Sansa knows about it, as does Arya I gather. Bran certainly does (he has the scroll in his hands when Sam visits). I suspect Sansa would have already told the Northern lords and gotten them under control by the time Jon comes. The idea in the finale was that the pack is getting together, not fighting with itself. And for now, at least, Jon is the pack alpha. By the time anything about his paternity comes out they'll be fully involved in the war against the NK, and I doubt anyone will have any time for something like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

I think if there was going to be friction on this issue it would have been obvious. Sansa knows about it, as does Arya I gather. Bran certainly does (he has the scroll in his hands when Sam visits). I suspect Sansa would have already told the Northern lords and gotten them under control by the time Jon comes. The idea in the finale was that the pack is getting together, not fighting with itself. And for now, at least, Jon is the pack alpha. By the time anything about his paternity comes out they'll be fully involved in the war against the NK, and I doubt anyone will have any time for something like this.

HBO released the note that Jon sent Sansa after the finale. I think there was a reason for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

HBO released the note that Jon sent Sansa after the finale. I think there was a reason for it.

Maybe because people asked them what the note that Bran had actually said?
Not everything must have an ulterior motive. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Maybe because people asked them what the note that Bran had actually said?
Not everything must have an ulterior motive. :)

Maybe. But I think Jon's bending the knee will have some unpleasant consequences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

HBO released the note that Jon sent Sansa after the finale. I think there was a reason for it.

Yeah I've read the released letter. He takes the position of warden and proclaims Dany the Queen. Nothing substantial here that doesn't already appear in Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger. Littlefinger is the one who wants to use this to create friction. Sansa plays him and ultimately executes him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yeah I've read the released letter. He takes the position of warden and proclaims Dany the Queen. Nothing substantial here that doesn't already appear in Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger. Littlefinger is the one who wants to use this to create friction. Sansa plays him and ultimately executes him. 

Littlefinger thought it was logically for Jon and Dany to marry which meant they were a threat to his plan to take throne for himself. In that scene he tried to turn her against Arya and Jon. He over played his hand. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/09/2017 at 6:35 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I agree. I think what's left of Bran in the 3eyed Raven wants to tell Jon because Jon is his family. He knows Jon wanted to know who his mother was. Sam also knows that Jon hated being a bastard. Jon being a legitimate Targaryen or Stark bastard makes no difference in the Great War. He is going to be fighting one way or the other. 

Yeah You might be right... He has to know who his parents are... For some reasons... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/09/2017 at 6:18 PM, Apoplexy said:

I don't remember in the show, but I think Aemon mentioned TPTWP to Jon. Also, telling him about his heritage might help Jon understand the probable reason why he was brought back to life. 

And Bran's reasoning to tell him was probably to let him know that he is the Targaryen heir to the IT. What Jon chooses to do with that information is upto Jon.

Of course it is up to Jon... But when they spend that much time about Jon's Lineage, it makes it even more important for everyone... Not just an information about Jon and only for Jon... But it feels like it is something even more important than it appears to be.... Whilst I don't really see why...

He was brought back to fight the WW... He fought against them in season 5 episode 8 before dying... He didn't know he was a Targ... That's why I don't see how "Being a Targ" will change anything in Jon. He has always done the stupidest bravest thing, and will end up dead for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe he have seen the night king have turned the Viserion and knows Daenerys can ride Drogon, Jon rides Rhaegal and Bran can  warg into Viserion to stop the night king. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2018 at 4:08 AM, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Yeah You might be right... He has to know who his parents are... For some reasons... 

My assumption was he has to tell him because this is literally the one thing that Jon's always been wondering about and he knows. Showing there's still a little bit of Bran Stark under it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/2/2018 at 8:10 PM, Lord Lannister said:

My assumption was he has to tell him because this is literally the one thing that Jon's always been wondering about and he knows. Showing there's still a little bit of Bran Stark under it all.

I thought that too.  I know that Arya is Jon's biggest fanboy, but Robb and Bran love him too.  It shows a little bit of Bran peeking through.  That he would want to tell Jon the truth and let him know about his mother.  Hopefully more of Bran will come through in season 8.  That he can balance his power and being Brandon Stark. 

I think it helps that the person telling Jon about his true parentage really loves him.  That he is surrounded by family and friends. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought it was pretty obvious why Jon 'has to know'.  It's clear at this point that Bran's purpose is to help defeat the Night King.  He knows he's the chess player, and he knows he needs to make the right moves.  He isn't thinking about Jon's feelings, or how many times him and Dany are going to do the naked dance of dragons.  We know Jon also has a massive role to play in defeating NK, and Bran realises Jon needs to be Aegon Targaryen to fulfill that role.  Can't see there being any more or less to it than that. 

 

I imagine pretty much everything Bran does or says from now on will be him moving another chess piece to where it needs to be for the checkmate on his opponent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

1. There is no reason Jon shouldn't know about his parents, after being told PRIVATELY. He may then share the information with Danerys and others. It is obvious that Sansa and Arya accept that Bran's visions are real and accurate. It was after Sansa consulted Bran (remember her mysterious visit to someone, not shown?) that she set up the final act with Arya. It was Bran's vision of the REAL history behind Petyr Baelish that ended him. Now did they share this with Yohn Royce? It would seem so. Royce accepted Sansa's accusations against Baelish (though he was rather predisposed to anyway). Bran would demonstrate his abilities to Jon and Jon would accept Bran's vision. If Royce would accept the accuracy of Bran's vision, a collection of the important Northern lords (Glover, Manderly, Mormont) could be gathered and told the truth.

2. But what is the truth? People assume automatically because the High Septum married Lyanna and Prince Rhaegar that everything is fine with Jon/Aegon. This unfortunately, is not true, at least not outside the plot arc. Prince Rhaegar was granted a divorce by the Faith (a divorce, not an annulment. An annulment ends a marriage when it is either unconsummated or childless. A consummated marriage with children can only end in divorce.) and the married in the Faith to Lyanna. But Prince Rhaegar is the Heir and he is still under the command of Aerys II, who is King, father and head of the Targaryan family. King Aerys II decreed that Prince Rhaegar would marry Elia Martell to seal an alliance with Dorne. As head of the Targaryan family , he negotiated a family alliance between the Targaryans and Martells. As Rhaegar's father, he arranged his marriage. Lyanna is daughter of a "Great House" and as a daughter, still under the hand of her father, Lord Rickard. As the head of the Stark family and her father, Lord Rickard DID NOT give Lyanna permission to marry Prince Rhaegar. King Aerys II neither rescinded his decree of marriage, decreed a divorce nor approved the marriage to Lyanna. Lyanna and Prince Rhaegar may be married in the Faith, but they are NOT legally married. In the eyes of the Houses involved, the King and the Westerosi legal system, Jon/Aegon is a bastard. Worse, he is an unacknowledged bastard like Gendry, with no personal or family rights and no name. To make him a legal son of Prince Rhaegar and place him in the succession required that Prince Rhaegar PUBLICALLY acknowledge him as his legal son and a Royal decree accepting the acknowledgement and placing him in the line of succession, behind Aegon, Elia's son. Divorce does not remove an acknowledged royal child from the succession. Both Mary and Elizabeth saw their mothers divorced and executed, but each succeeded to the throne of England after Edward VI. If Prince Rhaegar could not, then the head of the Targaryan family would have to acknowledge him PUBLICALLY, giving him legal standing. He could also be legitimized by a Royal decree. Danerys Stormborn is now head of the Targaryan family and Queen Pretender to the Iron Throne. She could acknowledge Jon as Rhaegar's son, at which point she becomes a Princess and heir and Jon becomes King Pretender. This works if there is not an acknowledged male anywhere in Westeros and Essos with Targaryan blood. Evidently, Westeros has something like Salic Law which means the senior male of the dynasty inherits both crown and kingdom. If anyone acknowledges and legitimizes Gendry as a BARATHEON, he has a superior claim to the Throne because of the strain of Targaryan blood in the Baratheons, despite Danerys being the daughter of the former King. This is what kept Elizabeth I awake at night because there were several English males still alive with Tudor or Plantagenet blood.

3. As such, Jon's acknowledgement by Lord Edard Stark, made him a Stark bastard, when he was no one's bastard. This was a legal action by Lord Stark. Jon may have been a bastard, but he now hade legal and social standing with family rights within the Starks. Ned MADE him a Stark. But he is a Stark bastard with NO LEGAL claim to the succession to the Iron Throne.

4. It can even be argued that he is legally a Stark, regardless of his bloodline. He was made King in the North by acclamation by the lords of the North. Remember that there is only one King in the North, WHOSE NAME IS STARK. Not Snow. Not Tragaryan. By tradition and custom, Jon cannot be King in the North without being a Stark. He is legally a Stark bastard because Ned acknowledged him PUBLICALLY, where Prince Rhaegar made no provisions for such an act should he be killed before doing so. So he can legally be a Stark and King in the North because the lords ACCEPTED HIM AS A STARK. That makes him Jon Stark.

5. Just a comment on Bran and Sansa. In the Medieval world until pretty close to the end, a lord or king was also a military leader, who not only commanded but lead from the front. A lord or king was expected to be able to lead his vassals to war. Minors, women and handicapped males had great difficulty being accepted, gaining power and holding it. Edward II and Richard II both faced continued opposition not only for their misrule but their failures as war leaders. You only see a woman ruling England in her own right until after the Middle Ages ends. There are no Queens of France ruling in their own right. No Holy Roman Empresses (even in the 18th century, Maria Theresa could not stand for election herself so proposed her husband). Isabella of Spain was notable because there were none before and none after and she was a co-ruler with Ferdinand. Bran's injuries and limitations made him ineligible, as did Sansa's gender, in the eyes of the Northern lords, ruling as Jon's regent is one thing, ruling in her own right is another.

6. Now all this is based on what we know of Medieval politics, society, traditions and culture and assume that they apply to GRRM's Westeros, both in the books and TV. Based on what has been written and shown so far, it is obvious that GRRM does not always follow history. This is after all fantasy soap opera, so anything may go, regardless of its logic or what plot gaps it creates.

Edited by Michael Snyder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Posted (edited)
On 8/31/2017 at 3:53 PM, falcotron said:

But yeah, he was sure his men wouldn't accept it two weeks earlier, and now he's sure they will accept it, and he doesn't have any new information to give them except "Trust me because I've seen what she's like and she's good", which isn't the kind of thing people generally just accept even when it's not being said about the woman you've just started sleeping with, so…

EXACTLY. Jon is contradicting himself here. 

In my mind, saving him on a mission isn't that impressive. It's an act that still benefits her because it's like going to save the men who are working for her. So is the show telling us sincerely that Jon "Broody To a Fault" Snow is going to be so in awe of Dany that he thinks people like Lyanna Mormont will fall to their feet simply because Dany rides a dragon and burns wights - something she should be doing ANYWAY because she's declaring herself the Protector of the Realm? Like kudos...for doing your damn job?

So, in thinking that his people will also bend the knee, either he's the trusting fool everyone thinks he is OR he's flattering her. 

It's probably the latter, because it doesn't make sense that his beliefs about the Northern Lords' reactions to accepting a southern ruler have changed.

 

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Posted (edited)

I feel like I should also comment on the main issue of the thread, so I'm submitting another comment.

I see things quite differently than most, because I don't believe for one second that they're just going to brush this succession thing under the rug, either with a marriage (too easy) or a "lets forget about it and fight zombies" (really lame).

I think the entire series is leading up to this war over succession. They dragged out Jon's parentage reveal for 2 seasons for a reason - it will be a major arc in S8.

Show-wise, what they seem to be emphasizing is the flexibility of Jon's Night's Watch oath, that he is the "shield that guards the realms of men." There have been multiple scenes now where that point is hammered, and I think Jon is going to realize that the best way to do the most good, and keep to that part of the oath (the only part that matters), is to take the throne. Davos suggested as much in S5 when he urged Jon to take Winterfell. What gave Jon pause then, was him trying to follow the oath literally - but post-death, he's over that overly strict interpretation of these things. He's going to do what he thinks is right. Even if it means betraying his oath to Dany. This would qualify as "treason" in her mind (what the other folks are listing are simple betrayals; Mirri didn't swear fealty to her).

I also don't think Jon "believes" in Dany as a ruler, or whatever utopian Targaryen fantasy people are dreaming up. I think he was just flattering her to get her to go North. There is no way that Jon actually thinks that Dany would be a better ruler of the North than he could be. She hasn't even set foot there, and she doesn't seem to care about saving the North unless a bunch of conditions are met...not exactly a way to Jon's heart.

That Jon is the better ruler for Westeros will be even more clear once 1) Dany realizes that she's stepped right into the thick of a Northern Independence movement, and that she doesn't actually "have" the North and will never have it, even if she married Jon, 2) news about Cersei breaking her word drops, and that Dany doesn't actually "have" the South either, 3) news about the Tarlys drops, which is like a powder keg that will blow up in her face, guaranteeing that she will have no support from any of the Lords of Westeros ever again, 4) her only ally has lost his power because he NOT ONLY bent the knee so offensively; he's a Targaryen who gave the North to a Targaryen, AND he's sleeping with her...all of this will negatively affect his ability to make the Lords march in line behind her. This would also nicely set up a Mance parallel, where Jon has to tell her "If you can't understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no point explaining."

Now all Jon has to do is decline to marry her because of the incest, watch her freak out over this very reasonable decision, gauge her reactions to the points numbered above...and he'd be even more certain that he would do a better job. If the lords of Westeros agree, because he's a man and because he doesn't burn people, it's on. Dance 2.0.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×