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MilesJames

How to stop the Night King

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53 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Possibly, like Tyrion, I always try to give a "carrot" rather than a stick lol  If you could flesh out your theories I would be forever grateful lol My latest obsession is with the nature of WWs, ther crypts at Winterfell and a possible magical barrier that drives your lot South ;)

But there is a hell more to it than that and we cannot know without further info.  I think the crypts and the super hot volcano line baths hold a clue...

There was a truce before and I believe there will be one this time, more permanent I hope... (WW -V- Living)

 

 

I don´t theorize seriously about the show. I have a theory, The Night king Master Plan, in that thread, but it is just for laughs.

If the showrunners do not take the plot seriously, I won´t be bother trying to think what they don´t.

I have some half baked theory about the Night King in the books, but it is not ready for serious sharing yet.

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1) 100k? meh theres at least 100k dothraki, each with a horse, worth at least 50 wights each

kl alone there's 1 million peasants, each capable fighting as well as a meager wight.

Besides, wildfire hidden in the groud + huge army of the undead = massive destruction (that is why they will reach kl.

 

2) that takes time. besides they are all already in the north, except the lannisters

winter has already spread and there is little food, but no problem so far...

 

3) only that one time for plot reasons. obviously there will be a 1 on 1 dragon fight or even 2 on 1, magical spears only show up for the plot. besides, mongols (dothrakhi) > dragonglass arrows.

 

4) Easy, just suicide the remaining two dragons, remember it all started because of them? They were all powerless before, even wildfire. I imagine the 3er was sitting on his ass all this time because he too was powerless. 

 

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2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

Seeing as our heroes took nary a bow on their "capture the wight mission", I suspect D&D have retroactively wiped bows from existence :rolleyes:. However I know there are still those anti dragon scorpions... Dragonglass tipped scorpion bolt! Oh yeah..

Bows clearly do exist—we saw them being used by both sides, in the same battle as the scorpion. However, as with many things, they don't seem to serve the same tactical purpose in Westeros as in the real world for some reason.

The Lannister archers fired at the Dothraki during their second charge, but waited until they were about two feet away, instead of sending up a volley of arrows during the entire charge. The Dothraki horse archers are even more baffling—they waited until after their cavalry had broken through the lines, twice, and were engaged in a melee with the Lannisters, before shooting into that melee. And then they waited some more, found a line of set shields, and fired their arrows directly at the shields.

The only way all of that makes sense is if everyone on Planetos knows that arrows are somehow drawn to the nearest Lannister coat of arms. Which would make them useless against the dead—they'd just all hit Jaime.

Although that does bring up one possibility: Jaime sacrifices himself to charge through the lines and give the Night King a big hug, and then everyone launches arrows into the air. Since we don't know what works, they should try a variety—regular flaming arrows, wildfire, dragonglass, Valyrian steel, boxing glove, etc.

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I have a feeling the NK will suffer a case of Valyrian steel sword through bowels. 

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1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I don´t theorize seriously about the show. I have a theory, The Night king Master Plan, in that thread, but it is just for laughs.

If the showrunners do not take the plot seriously, I won´t be bother trying to think what they don´t.

I have some half baked theory about the Night King in the books, but it is not ready for serious sharing yet.

Would you care to share???

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i appreciate but wracking my brains here as to what the NK would want and all the magic in WF LOL may take a while but will come up with something lol ;)

 

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One dragon should fly high above ground and burn wights. But first they should get rid of giants and Ice dragon. They can use for that Quburn's weapon, with arrowheads made from dragonglass. Other dragon could drop off several paratroopers (:D) as close as possible to White Walkers, and they should kill those WW with Valyrian steel. So that should be Jon, Arya, Brienne, Jaime, and Sam can give his sword to someone more capable, like Gray Worm or Tormund, or even Gendry, or to Arya (because in a fight against WW long sword would be much better than short dagger). When all WW will be gone, all wights will also perish. Then, if by that time Night's King will still have a dragon, there should be a duel between Jon and NK, Jon on Drogon and NK on Ice dragon.

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Find his motivation which will expose his weakness then exploit it. Easy. Also act like you have a plan so when it's over you can take all the credit.

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5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Would you care to share???

This is my half baked book theory:

I think we somehow got the timeline of events wrong:

- The Children of the Forest and other "mythical creatures" inhabited the whole world.

- Humanity, at first just one more species, started to expand, warring against the Children and others.

- The Children were practically eradicated in Essos, where humanity probably originates from. 

- At some point, humans also started migrating to Westeros. At some point the Children decided enough was enough and decided to wage full scale magical warfare on humanity. The Others are likely a product of this period. 

- This full assault partially worked, forcing humanity to seek a truce. I think this is the story behind the Last Hero legend. He did not seek help, though, but tried to contact the Children leaders to sign peace. He may have been a Stark.

-As a side note, it is worth mentioning Azor Ahai and similar warrior figures are mainly from Essos mythology. My bet is that he is not a hero who ended the war by defeating the Others. I think he is more the archetype of the aggressor, humanity destroying the Children´s environment with war and fire. 

-The Pact probably included some safeguards against humanity wielding excessive magic. When you think about it, Westerosi society seems less magically inclined than the ones in Essos, and the main culture and ideology producers keep advising against magic.

- I am not quite sure why the Others seem to be coming back right now, but I have a couple of ideas. Maybe is just a natural cycle, magic is getting stronger. Or maybe some other thing has happened to stir them up.

- I am almost 100% convinced the end game will not be a war against the Others. Humanity can simply not win a war like that. The endgame will be some human representatives (Bran...) realizing this truth. A new Pact will have to be forged and the Starks will have a huge role in it, as humanity representatives.

 

I don´t have much evidence on this, but there is no real evidence the Others will be defeated by war apart from the prophecies of fanatics. Having read quite a lot of GRRM work, I know he is a pacifist, and many of his other stories have similar endings, so the Great War to end all wars does not suit him.  

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32 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

As a side note, it is worth mentioning Azor Ahai and similar warrior figures are mainly from Essos mythology. My bet is that he is not a hero who ended the war by defeating the Others. I think he is more the archetype of the aggressor, humanity destroying the Children´s environment with war and fire. 

Where else could they be from? Westeros has its Last Hero/Watch/etc. myth; the rest of the known world has different myths, and the rest of the known world pretty much is Essos.*

And meanwhile, Westeros's Last Hero is every bit as warlike as Essos's Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, etc.

In fact, the least warlike Long Night myth we've heard, by far, is from Essos—the Rhoynish hero who traveled to the mouth of the river to convince the gods to stop squabbling and sing a song to end the winter.

(I still have a lingering suspicion that all of the different myths are actually separate myths, not just local retellings of the Last Hero, even though there are definitely problems with that theory. See here if you're interested. But let's not get too off track here.)

---

* OK, yeah, the north coast of Sothoryos may have had some myths that have been lost since the civilizations and colonies there vanished; the Summer Isles may have myths we haven't heard; etc. But if they were interesting, we would probably have heard of them. Also, if there's a part of the world least affected by the Long Night and least likely to be involved in fighting it, it's the equatorial part.

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5 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

This is my half baked book theory:

I think we somehow got the timeline of events wrong:

- The Children of the Forest and other "mythical creatures" inhabited the whole world.

- Humanity, at first just one more species, started to expand, warring against the Children and others.

- The Children were practically eradicated in Essos, where humanity probably originates from. 

- At some point, humans also started migrating to Westeros. At some point the Children decided enough was enough and decided to wage full scale magical warfare on humanity. The Others are likely a product of this period. 

- This full assault partially worked, forcing humanity to seek a truce. I think this is the story behind the Last Hero legend. He did not seek help, though, but tried to contact the Children leaders to sign peace. He may have been a Stark.

-As a side note, it is worth mentioning Azor Ahai and similar warrior figures are mainly from Essos mythology. My bet is that he is not a hero who ended the war by defeating the Others. I think he is more the archetype of the aggressor, humanity destroying the Children´s environment with war and fire. 

-The Pact probably included some safeguards against humanity wielding excessive magic. When you think about it, Westerosi society seems less magically inclined than the ones in Essos, and the main culture and ideology producers keep advising against magic.

- I am not quite sure why the Others seem to be coming back right now, but I have a couple of ideas. Maybe is just a natural cycle, magic is getting stronger. Or maybe some other thing has happened to stir them up.

- I am almost 100% convinced the end game will not be a war against the Others. Humanity can simply not win a war like that. The endgame will be some human representatives (Bran...) realizing this truth. A new Pact will have to be forged and the Starks will have a huge role in it, as humanity representatives.

 

I don´t have much evidence on this, but there is no real evidence the Others will be defeated by war apart from the prophecies of fanatics. Having read quite a lot of GRRM work, I know he is a pacifist, and many of his other stories have similar endings, so the Great War to end all wars does not suit him.  

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me actually.  I am also, albeit I think in the minority, who things that there has to be another deal brokered although I do also think we are definitely get some battles and the Night King may even die but not the Others completely.  They may agree to go back into hibernation or whatever it is they were doing until recently though...

My latest obsession seems to revolve around Winterfell, the crypts etc and I can't wait to find out more about the magic and so on.

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5 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

This is my half baked book theory:

I think we somehow got the timeline of events wrong:

- The Children of the Forest and other "mythical creatures" inhabited the whole world.

- Humanity, at first just one more species, started to expand, warring against the Children and others.

- The Children were practically eradicated in Essos, where humanity probably originates from. 

- At some point, humans also started migrating to Westeros. At some point the Children decided enough was enough and decided to wage full scale magical warfare on humanity. The Others are likely a product of this period. 

- This full assault partially worked, forcing humanity to seek a truce. I think this is the story behind the Last Hero legend. He did not seek help, though, but tried to contact the Children leaders to sign peace. He may have been a Stark.

-As a side note, it is worth mentioning Azor Ahai and similar warrior figures are mainly from Essos mythology. My bet is that he is not a hero who ended the war by defeating the Others. I think he is more the archetype of the aggressor, humanity destroying the Children´s environment with war and fire. 

-The Pact probably included some safeguards against humanity wielding excessive magic. When you think about it, Westerosi society seems less magically inclined than the ones in Essos, and the main culture and ideology producers keep advising against magic.

- I am not quite sure why the Others seem to be coming back right now, but I have a couple of ideas. Maybe is just a natural cycle, magic is getting stronger. Or maybe some other thing has happened to stir them up.

- I am almost 100% convinced the end game will not be a war against the Others. Humanity can simply not win a war like that. The endgame will be some human representatives (Bran...) realizing this truth. A new Pact will have to be forged and the Starks will have a huge role in it, as humanity representatives.

 

I don´t have much evidence on this, but there is no real evidence the Others will be defeated by war apart from the prophecies of fanatics. Having read quite a lot of GRRM work, I know he is a pacifist, and many of his other stories have similar endings, so the Great War to end all wars does not suit him.  

Yes, pretty much, kind off :)

GRRM said he wanted to write about what happened after Aragon won and took over middle Earth, what were his tax polices and so on... also, what happens to the magical creatures like Hobbits and any remaining Elves as humans expand?

I just see the CotF like Hobbits and the NK/Walkers like Elves. Their existence and connection to the magic on Planetos has been gradually destroyed by humanity's expansion. They are the oppressed, they are the victims - and the NK is kind of the sword of the oppressed.

Human's, in this story, are the bad guys - we've just been following the tale from the bad guys POV. Think about it, ASoIaF is very critical of humanity - the humans have some magic but no spirituality, the idea that the things we love destroy us is driven home over and over in the text, they are genocidal, driven by with selfishness and hatred.

This is not to say that the NK will win. The humans may - but the bittersweet will be realising that the bad guys won. The goal will be reversed on us, the viewer. Kind of like Roy's death at the end of Blade Runner, when you finally sympathise with the replicants. I believe this tale will have us finally understanding what the White Walkers stood for was correct, after they are gone.

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4 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, pretty much, kind off :)

GRRM said he wanted to write about what happened after Aragon won and took over middle Earth, what were his tax polices and so on... also, what happens to the magical creatures like Hobbits and any remaining Elves as humans expand?

I just see the CotF like Hobbits and the NK/Walkers like Elves. Their existence and connection to the magic on Planetos has been gradually destroyed by humanity's expansion. They are the oppressed, they are the victims - and the NK is kind of the sword of the oppressed.

Human's, in this story, are the bad guys - we've just been following the tale from the bad guys POV. Think about it, ASoIaF is very critical of humanity - the humans have some magic but no spirituality, the idea that the things we love destroy us is driven home over and over in the text, they are genocidal, driven by with selfishness and hatred.

This is not to say that the NK will win. The humans may - but the bittersweet will be realising that the bad guys won. The goal will be reversed on us, the viewer. Kind of like Roy's death at the end of Blade Runner, when you finally sympathise with the replicants. I believe this tale will have us finally understanding what the White Walkers stood for was correct, after they are gone.

They have never been eradicated.  Only driven back.  Why should this time be any different?

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Just now, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

They have never been eradicated.  Only driven back.  Why should this time be any different?

Dany and Jon and Possibly Bran and Jamie. Humanity has a whole bunch of magical 'heroes' lined up. It's like imagine of there were 2 or 3 Saurons, how could Frodo have won?

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I think Jon had a good chance to end it all when the Night King exposed himself infront of him.

Obviously such an opportunity could never work in Season 7, so Jon wisely chose to run. 

But in season 8 it should be more then enough to finish the war with the dead. 

The point is that the war could be ended in an instant whenever a battle occurs, it's all up to the showrunners. 

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8 minutes ago, ummester said:

Dany and Jon and Possibly Bran and Jamie. Humanity has a whole bunch of magical 'heroes' lined up. It's like imagine of there were 2 or 3 Saurons, how could Frodo have won?

There were heroes back then too and they only drove them back.  Maybe the bittersweet end is showing the creation of a new Night King.  

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12 minutes ago, ummester said:

Dany and Jon and Possibly Bran and Jamie. Humanity has a whole bunch of magical 'heroes' lined up. It's like imagine of there were 2 or 3 Saurons, how could Frodo have won?

Imagine if there were Sauron, Saruman, Wormtongue, and the Witch-King, how could Frodo have won?

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