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MilesJames

How to stop the Night King

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44 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

There were heroes back then too and they only drove them back.  Maybe the bittersweet end is showing the creation of a new Night King.  

Yes indeed - like Jon realises to defeat him he must replace him and go into the North to watch over humanity again.

40 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Imagine if there were Sauron, Saruman, Wormtongue, and the Witch-King, how could Frodo have won?

Good point, there is hope for our frozen hero yet!

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17 minutes ago, Wagshell said:

Do we think the dragonglass has to be removed from his heart for him to be stopped? Just wondering.

Maybe there's some kind of surgery he can get that will allow him to survive without it. Wasn't that the C-plot to one of the Iron Man movies? I'll bet they stole that from GRRM.

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6 hours ago, falcotron said:

Where else could they be from? Westeros has its Last Hero/Watch/etc. myth; the rest of the known world has different myths, and the rest of the known world pretty much is Essos.*

And meanwhile, Westeros's Last Hero is every bit as warlike as Essos's Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, etc.

In fact, the least warlike Long Night myth we've heard, by far, is from Essos—the Rhoynish hero who traveled to the mouth of the river to convince the gods to stop squabbling and sing a song to end the winter.

(I still have a lingering suspicion that all of the different myths are actually separate myths, not just local retellings of the Last Hero, even though there are definitely problems with that theory. See here if you're interested. But let's not get too off track here.)

---

* OK, yeah, the north coast of Sothoryos may have had some myths that have been lost since the civilizations and colonies there vanished; the Summer Isles may have myths we haven't heard; etc. But if they were interesting, we would probably have heard of them. Also, if there's a part of the world least affected by the Long Night and least likely to be involved in fighting it, it's the equatorial part.

You are probably right and I am off with the Essos/Westeros dichotomy. I will have a look at that thread, it is a matter than interests me a lot.

1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me actually.  I am also, albeit I think in the minority, who things that there has to be another deal brokered although I do also think we are definitely get some battles and the Night King may even die but not the Others completely.  They may agree to go back into hibernation or whatever it is they were doing until recently though...

My latest obsession seems to revolve around Winterfell, the crypts etc and I can't wait to find out more about the magic and so on.

You will probably enjoy the Heresy threads. Most of the stuff about the Stark I said comes straight from them.

1 hour ago, ummester said:

Yes, pretty much, kind off :)

GRRM said he wanted to write about what happened after Aragon won and took over middle Earth, what were his tax polices and so on... also, what happens to the magical creatures like Hobbits and any remaining Elves as humans expand?

I just see the CotF like Hobbits and the NK/Walkers like Elves. Their existence and connection to the magic on Planetos has been gradually destroyed by humanity's expansion. They are the oppressed, they are the victims - and the NK is kind of the sword of the oppressed.

Human's, in this story, are the bad guys - we've just been following the tale from the bad guys POV. Think about it, ASoIaF is very critical of humanity - the humans have some magic but no spirituality, the idea that the things we love destroy us is driven home over and over in the text, they are genocidal, driven by with selfishness and hatred.

This is not to say that the NK will win. The humans may - but the bittersweet will be realising that the bad guys won. The goal will be reversed on us, the viewer. Kind of like Roy's death at the end of Blade Runner, when you finally sympathise with the replicants. I believe this tale will have us finally understanding what the White Walkers stood for was correct, after they are gone.

I was thinking about the LotR ending as well. Some people has speculated about a possible "death of Magic" ending, a la Tolkien, and have rightfully said this would be a bittersweet ending. 

I am of the flimsy opinion that The George will go for the opposite: a rebirth of Magic. At the end of the day, Magic has been basically dead in Planetos for the last centuries. Humanity will have to pay a price or make sacrifices to avoid being wiped out in this new era of Magic. 

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8 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

You are probably right and I am off with the Essos/Westeros dichotomy. I will have a look at that thread, it is a matter than interests me a lot.

I think the best idea in that thread is not my original idea, but someone else's observation of how different the Rhoynish story is. I  still haven't figured out exactly how to fit that into my thinking, but I'm working on it…

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13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I think the best idea in that thread is not my original idea, but someone else's observation of how different the Rhoynish story is. I  still haven't figured out exactly how to fit that into my thinking, but I'm working on it…

I think most of these stories are a type of cargo cult. My opinion is that during the Long Night there were resource wars all over Westeros and Essos. The survivors claimed their victory (or peace) when the Long Night ended and built legends around their leaders at the time.

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think most of these stories are a type of cargo cult. My opinion is that during the Long Night there were resource wars all over Westeros and Essos. The survivors claimed their victory (or peace) when the Long Night ended and built legends around their leaders at the time.

That makes sense. At the end of the day, it is the victor (or the survivor) who gets to tell the story.

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3 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I was thinking about the LotR ending as well. Some people has speculated about a possible "death of Magic" ending, a la Tolkien, and have rightfully said this would be a bittersweet ending. 

I am of the flimsy opinion that The George will go for the opposite: a rebirth of Magic. At the end of the day, Magic has been basically dead in Planetos for the last centuries. Humanity will have to pay a price or make sacrifices to avoid being wiped out in this new era of Magic. 

I think the rebirth of magic, and subsequent defeat/decline/withdrawal of humanity is a more interesting way to end, for sure. The kind of tales that end like this are mostly considered apocalyptic - like the resolution to the Ragnarok, or the Biblical Revelations. This said, the Greek meaning of apocalypse is an uncovering, or revealing of the truth - so it would definitely fit. It's just a big risk to end a story like that, though it would be remembered for longer.

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1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

That makes sense. At the end of the day, it is the victor (or the survivor) who gets to tell the story.

You can then imagine the legends that will be told about the survivors of the new Age of Heroes: Sam the Slayer, The Hound and The Stranger, Tormund Thunderfist, the Mother of Dragons, etc.

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On 8/31/2017 at 3:40 PM, falcotron said:

Actually, Dany's army is clearly bigger. He has around 100K wights. She has 100K Dothraki, plus the Unsullied, and whatever forces Jon or anyone else can bring.

But also, even if medieval battles were a pure numbers game, which they aren't, I'm pretty sure you couldn't count wights vs. humans as 1:1. On the one hand, wights are resistant to normal weapons; on the other hand, they don't fight very well when left to their own devices, and they're more susceptible to fire than living people. I think on balance, it's pretty clear that 100K wights is nowhere near as good a force as 100K living soldiers, at least if those humans have the basic knowledge of how to fight wights and the time to prepare with fire and obsidian and so on.

The reason the NK is undefeatable is that each battle reduces the enemy's forces but increases his, unless he loses so disastrously that most of his Walkers die or something.

And that's the first part of the answer: Draw him into a massive battle where the stakes are so high that he can't just leave and come back with more wights if things don't look so good. Then you may be able to get a chance to have a dragon dogfight, ground him, and then have someone fight him one-on-one with a Valyrian steel sword. Or maybe you can keep him distracted enough that Bran can engage him in some kind of mental duel even though he doesn't seem to be as powerful on a level playing field. Or… really, most of the best plans go through a climactic battle like this. (Which is a good thing for D&D, because spending most of their CGI budget on a climactic Battle for the Dawn 2.0 seems a good idea from a production standpoint.)

Of course there are other possibilities. Maybe you can sneak up on him. Maybe he's actually a reasonable being with aims that aren't completely antithetical to humanity so you can negotiate with him. Maybe you can sacrifice Jon and his double kingsblood in a bonfire and freeze the whole wight army so now it's an easy fight against just the Walkers. Maybe…

"He only has 100k" That was an estimation by Jon who only saw the man he has with him in severly foggy artic conditions. 

 However the night king could easily have millions of wights by now if he wanted to. So if he only has 100k the real question is why did he choose to only have 100k men ? 

Even if we assume the living have a great kill to death ratio, do you expect them to charge an army and fight to the last man ? There is nothing to stop him from simply rasing anyone who dies from his side. Does Daynerias army know no fear ever and will never break ? 

A dragon dog fight ? Do you remember what happened when the fellowship came ? Night king know they were coming. Surrounded them. Choose not to kill them. Waited for dragons to come, kiled far away dragon and let other dragon escape. (I am confident he let other dragon escape becuase he also let jon escaoe right after) 

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On 9/1/2017 at 3:38 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

First Dany has to fix her mess and kill Viserion to unseat the Night King. I don't think she can kill the Night King and is more likely to be killed in the act.

Jon has to then lead a distraction force to occupy the wights. They've made wights easier to kill in the show presumably for this reason. In the books one wight can't die by one slash of dragonglass, they need to be hacked and burned. This will only work once, as the next night all your soldiers are the enemy should you need to retreat.

Arya has to infiltrate the rear of the force with a group of soldiers to kill the Night King, thus mostly ending the battle.

Arya ? You want an assassin to lead a charge/attempt to kill a being that can probaly see the future, and has a dragon ?   Even if Arya could get to the night king, what is to stop the night king from just killing her ? Its not lile she can sneak up on him. 

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On 9/1/2017 at 4:18 AM, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Actually, 2 words can defeat the Nightsking: Dragonglass Arrow

Distract the NK and his henchmen with a squad of awesome soldiers (Hound, Brienne, Tormund, Bronn, etc) equipped with Valyrian steel and Dragonglass weapons. Try and get them as close as possible to the NK, so he needs to have his army defend his position from the advancing squad.

Have a squad of archers circumvent the AOTD and sneek up behind de NK's position and fire massive amounts of dragonglass arrows at his position. He and his crew are bound to be hit by at least 1 arrow.

Done, end of the Great War!
Time to start bickering about a throne, crown, land, sex and children.

This actually has a small chance of working. If nights king can be killed by dragon glass. He is much stronger than normal others and is unaffected by dragonfire and can possible see future.

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25 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

Arya ? You want an assassin to lead a charge/attempt to kill a being that can probaly see the future, and has a dragon ?   Even if Arya could get to the night king, what is to stop the night king from just killing her ? Its not lile she can sneak up on him. 

You didn't read my post in full, unseating him from his dragon is step 1. Distracting the wights is step 2. Leading a small band to get close to and kill the Night King is step 3. We know no one else who can do this. Otherwise you would have to imagine Jon barelling through 100,000 wights just to get close to him

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Where are Ramsay's twenty good men? All died in the BoB? 

 

In any case the proper way is take the Night's King and R'llhor in one place, bash their heads together, make them speak out their designs and differences for everyone to hear and then cast them off both as failures. Too bad Jon Snow is not Captain Sinclair. Nor is Dany Delenn.

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1 hour ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Where are Ramsay's twenty good men? All died in the BoB? 

Maybe, but right now theon has the "20 good men" thing going on, but I'm not sure if they are of the same quality. He learned the art of 20 from observing Ramsey so.... Maybe he can pull it off. 

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On ‎01‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 6:45 PM, #teamNightking said:

Seeing as our heroes took nary a bow on their "capture the wight mission", I suspect D&D have retroactively wiped bows from existence :rolleyes:. However I know there are still those anti dragon scorpions... Dragonglass tipped scorpion bolt! Oh yeah..

That will be used to kill unviserion of course.

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On 2.9.2017 at 9:58 AM, Wagshell said:

Do we think the dragonglass has to be removed from his heart for him to be stopped? Just wondering.

Yes, that sounds logical. Cut up with Valyrian steel probably.

Unviserion might be killed with lots of dragonglass arrows instead of one dragonglass scorpion. 

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