Patterns in wounds and deaths - please help compile a list.

[Seams]

53 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

Are you also looking for AVOIDED deaths? Like Tyrion narrowly AVOIDED being mauled by lions in the fighting pit? (I think...if I remember right and it's not some other animal, It could be prophetic of his alliance with the Targaryen house protecting him from his own family)

Very interesting. That might deserve a whole discussion of its own. Tyrion avoids the lion because Dany intervenes, right? So which other characters narrowly avoid being killed by wild animals? Brienne is rescued from the bear by Jaime. Jon is attacked by Orell's eagle. He avoids being killed and the eagle is later killed by Melisandre (or so she claims). Roose Bolton goes wolf hunting from Harrenhal. He doesn't seem to make a narrow escape, but does kill a bunch of wolves (maybe the same ones Arya encountered one night when she went off to make water while traveling with Yoren).

Oh but your point is partly that the lion is also the Lannister sigil. Joffrey remarks at one point that Dany's brother, Viserys, was killed by dragons because gold coins are called dragons and Viserys is killed with molten gold. He tells Sansa it's the same as if Robb had been killed by wolves. So I bet those are linked to Tyrion in the lion's den. Good observation.

[JaneSnow]

1 hour ago, Bitterblooms said:

Are you also looking for AVOIDED deaths? Like Tyrion narrowly AVOIDED being mauled by lions in the fighting pit? (I think...if I remember right and it's not some other animal, It could be prophetic of his alliance with the Targaryen house protecting him from his own family)

Reminds me of how I think Cersei remembers at one point when she and Jaime were little she went to where the lions were kept and they dared each other to touch it. Jaime was too afraid to but Cersei poked it. Considering that Cersei loathes him but Jaime is rather fond of him, could that be significant?

[Lollygag]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:19 PM, Azarial said:

Nice, I knew I had to have missed some.

So if it's a stomach wound in particular, and not multiple wounds Ned and Robbert may fit too as they are stomach and neck wounds (albeit more severe ones) I wonder if their is meaning in stabbed in gut vrs heart? or both in Jon's case, as the one in the back seems likely to have done that.

Sansa fits this figuratively.

Here, she can't be heard in an implicit throat injury.

ACOK Sansa IV
That night Sansa dreamed of the riot again. The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks. She wept and told them she had never done them hurt, yet they dragged her from her horse all the same. "No," she cried, "no, please, don't, don't," but no one paid her any heed. She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard. Women swarmed over her like weasels, pinching her legs and kicking her in the belly, and someone hit her in the face and she felt her teeth shatter. Then she saw the bright glimmer of steel. The knife plunged into her belly and tore and tore and tore, until there was nothing left of her down there but shiny wet ribbons.

 

Her arc is full of not being able to speak (little bird) and being punched in the stomach.

[Lollygag]

On 6/11/2018 at 8:47 AM, Seams said:

It's interesting to see this sour leaf discussion again now that I've put some time into the color and fruit symbolism associated with the Rainbow Guard. Emmon Frey is one of three Emmons in the story, including Renly's yellow guard, Ser Emmon Cuy. Lemons are associated with healthy teeth (or, at least, dental hygiene) in ASOIAF but Emmon Frey seems to undermine that with his slimy red mouth full of sour leaf. (I wonder whether there's a pun on slime and smile? Of course there would be.)

Swords are also associated with smiles, oddly. When Arya finds she can't bring herself to throw needle into the canal in Braavos, she says it reminds her of Jon Snow's smile. This might fit with your observation that cutting someone's throat creates a red smile.

One thing that strikes me about this cluster of related images or symbols around smiles, lemons and sour red leaf (resulting in a red mouth) is that GRRM never mentions limes - an obvious candidate for a pun with smiles. I think this might be because the color green has an entirely different set of meanings and it would throw off his system of symbols to link limes to smiles. He does mention grapes and crushing of grapes (Saladhor Saan and Dunk), pomegranates (Littlefinger tells Sansa that he doesn't like to get the juice on his hands) and, of course, blood oranges (overripe ones drop all around Doran Martell and Arya throws one at Sansa's dress). GRRM uses many fruits in symbolic ways, but I don't think he mentions limes at all. (If someone has access to the Search site and wants to correct me on this, I welcome evidence to the contrary. I can't access the Search site on this computer. Oh, I see one I cited in a different thread - the crowd in Dorne throwing fruit at Doran and his entourage, to protest the death of beloved Prince Oberyn and the apparent lack of response from the Prince Doran. Lemons, limes and oranges are thrown. But this does show limes as weapons, not as something that is eaten, fwiw.)

Ser Loras, who is not associated with a single color, as Lord Commander of the Rainbow Guard, slays Emmon Cuy (yellow) and Robar Royce (red) because he believes they were derelict in their duties for not protecting Renly. They were standing guard at Renly's pavilion, sort of guarding the "mouth" of his tent. Jaime, boss of Loras as Lord Commander of the King's Guard, later helps Ser Loras to understand that he should not have killed Emmon and Robar.

Anyway. Complicating things, I realize. It is fun to grapple with a complex motif such as the "red mouths" symbolism you singled out, but it always leads me to new layers of symbolism.

Exploring the symbols around sourleaf might turn out something along the lines of bitter/sour fruit. Think I figured out the difference between the red mouth symbolism (genuine intent to murder in the moment and in the moment only) as opposed to sourleaf which is linked to characters who have or are somehow complicit in long-term planning of a murder - hence their sourness/bitterness. Characters linked to sourleaf:

1. Yoren - plotted to kill his brother's killer and ended up in the NW for it.

2. Chett - plotted to kill Mormont

3. Marwyn - openly claims to not be trustworthy and supposedly has a murderous past. Up to something surely.

4. Snatch (Tyrion ADWD) - linked to Bronn who is a turncoat sellsword. We'll have to see about him.

5. Bennis (Sworn Sword) - betrayed Dunk

6. It’s being loaded upon the ship Bride in Azure in Qarth. It’s also transporting wine and striped hides and is owned by the Thirteen.

7. Masha Heddle who ran the Inn at the Crossroads

8. The Pious dwarf Brienne meets

9. Emmon Frey - plotting to end Edmure.

10. Arya tries sourleaf but hates it.

 

Masha and the Pious Dwarf stand out. Catelyn notes that Masha used to smile happily, yet notes that those smiles are no longer happy. So she's undergone something which changed her for the worse. With Tyrion, she tells Catelyn to kill him offsite as she wants no involvement in high lord's troubles despite letting Tywin's son be murdered is doing just that. Tywin later treats this as betrayal. Hmmm....

The dwarf certainly has reason to want revenge and be plotting a murder as he claims his compatriots have been murdered. I can't locate the details on him so I'm guessing a more indepth read of him might turn up something. His bloody smile appears while saying the word "Gold?" for Sansa's reward which gives the dwarf a dark air. Perhaps he's a symbolic Tyrion? Tyrion was pious in not forcing Sansa to consummate their marriage. Tyrion had a bulbous penis and the Pious dwarf had a bulbous nose. Tyrion lost his, um, nose, and he is most certainly sour. The dwarf ends up being taken to Cersei.

Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head.

His nose was veined and bulbous, his teeth red from sourleaf, and he was dressed in the brown roughspun robes of a holy brother, with the iron hammer of the Smith dangling down about his thick neck.

 

Might consider a connection between nose injuries and full castration. Wouldn't be the first time these two parts were juxtaposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Camel

 

[Lollygag]

I'm considering treating pale eyes as something like a birth defect = character defect. This wouldn't apply to eyes which are pale due to old age (Old Nan, Barristan) or the sick. There's a lot of consistency of pale eyes for colder characters. Not a full list:

Viserys

Bran’s would-be killer

Tywin

The Boltons

 Ilyn Payne

Jon Con (Tyrion compares his pale eyes to Tywin's)

Lysa

Selyse

Mandon Moore

Emmon Frey

The wights

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm considering treating pale eyes as something like a birth defect = character defect. This wouldn't apply to eyes which are pale due to old age (Old Nan, Barristan) or the sick. There's a lot of consistency of pale eyes for colder characters. Not a full list:

Viserys

Bran’s would-be killer

Tywin

The Boltons

 Ilyn Payne

Jon Con (Tyrion compares his pale eyes to Tywin's)

Lysa

Selyse

Mandon Moore

Emmon Frey

The wights

I agree that the word "pale" has a particular connection to cold. I didn't look at characters as much as places, and it looks like I moved onto other things before pinning down a definite explanation. Maybe your analysis of pale eyes will zero in on GRRM's hidden meaning.

 

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Exploring the symbols around sourleaf might turn out something along the lines of bitter/sour fruit. Think I figured out the difference between the red mouth symbolism (genuine intent to murder in the moment and in the moment only) as opposed to sourleaf which is linked to characters who have or are somehow complicit in long-term planning of a murder - hence their sourness/bitterness. Characters linked to sourleaf:

1. Yoren - plotted to kill his brother's killer and ended up in the NW for it.

2. Chett - plotted to kill Mormont

3. Marwyn - openly claims to not be trustworthy and supposedly has a murderous past. Up to something surely.

4. Snatch (Tyrion ADWD) - linked to Bronn who is a turncoat sellsword. We'll have to see about him.

5. Bennis (Sworn Sword) - betrayed Dunk

6. It’s being loaded upon the ship Bride in Azure in Qarth. It’s also transporting wine and striped hides and is owned by the Thirteen.

7. Masha Heddle who ran the Inn at the Crossroads

8. The Pious dwarf Brienne meets

9. Emmon Frey - plotting to end Edmure.

10. Arya tries sourleaf but hates it.

 

Masha and the Pious Dwarf stand out. Catelyn notes that Masha used to smile happily, yet notes that those smiles are no longer happy. So she's undergone something which changed her for the worse. With Tyrion, she tells Catelyn to kill him offsite as she wants no involvement in high lord's troubles despite letting Tywin's son be murdered is doing just that. Tywin later treats this as betrayal. Hmmm....

The dwarf certainly has reason to want revenge and be plotting a murder as he claims his compatriots have been murdered. I can't locate the details on him so I'm guessing a more indepth read of him might turn up something. His bloody smile appears while saying the word "Gold?" for Sansa's reward which gives the dwarf a dark air. Perhaps he's a symbolic Tyrion? Tyrion was pious in not forcing Sansa to consummate their marriage. Tyrion had a bulbous penis and the Pious dwarf had a bulbous nose. Tyrion lost his, um, nose, and he is most certainly sour. The dwarf ends up being taken to Cersei.

Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head.

His nose was veined and bulbous, his teeth red from sourleaf, and he was dressed in the brown roughspun robes of a holy brother, with the iron hammer of the Smith dangling down about his thick neck.

I'm lovin' this. I like the "impulse to kill" explanation, but I think your next insights might be even more to the point: these sourleaf characters seem to be "evil twins" or remote agents or -- dare I say it? -- daemons of characters we have seen elsewhere. Bran and Arya both taste blood in their mouths when their wolves make a kill. Maybe the chewers of sourleaf are like those direwolves, out ranging and making kills that provide a (false) sense of "nourishment" for a major character.

You mention the pious dwarf as a symbolic Tyrion, and I think that is correct. He is also a guide for Brienne, telling her about Nimble Dick Crabb's boasting about fooling a fool and (iirc) the Stinking Goose. There's something symbolic about Brienne taking his seat and the dwarf eats her food, as I recall. There could also be a clue in the rhyming "sparrow" and "arrow," as Tyrion later seems to have some crossbow discussion with Snatch.

Is this sour leaf / red mouth group a closed loop? Interlocking loops? Tyrion kills Tywin with a crossbow. The pious dwarf (sparrow / arrow) launches Brienne on her quest. (Tyrion begins his quest after killing Tywin.) The pious dwarf is beheaded as bounty hunters search for dwarf heads to present to Cersei, hoping to cash in on the reward she offers for Tyrion's death. Tyrion meets up with Snatch, who is the new embodiment of Tyrion's loyal champion, Bronn. Snatch may be a player in the upcoming invasion of Westeros, which Tyrion intends as the means to topple Cersei from power. Recall, also, that Tyrion and Bronn first encounter each other at the inn at the crossroads, where Masha Heddle was the proprietor.

But here's a different, related loop, if you think sour leaf and lemons might be linked: Cersei does not like washing her mouth with lemons, even though it's supposedly good for her teeth. Emmon Frey (one of the three Emmon lemons in the books) is the Frey most closely linked to the Lannister family and he is a red-mouthed chewer of sour leaf. The Freys were the blood thirsty implementers of the Red Wedding. Therefore, Emmon Frey is a symbolic direwolf for Cersei. Emmon wants Edmure Tully to die so his claim to Riverrun will be free of challengers. Brynden "Blackfish" Tully escapes Riverrun, apparently living up to his trout sigil by swimming out into the Trident under a gate. (There has to be deliberate symbolism around the "Trident," meaning "three teeth" and the dental hygiene associated with lemons.) Lem Lemoncloak wades into the Trident to retrieve a duck shot with an arrow (ASoS, Chap. 13, Arya II). He hopes it will be cooked with lemon, but there are no lemons. Later on the same journey, Arya obtains clean drinking water from a trout-shaped fountain to ease the suffering of caged northmen, sentenced to death for rape. She pours the water into their cracked and bleeding mouths. Anguy then kills the men with arrows to put them out of their misery (ASoS, Chap. 29, Arya V).

This is fun. Here's another loop: Sour leaf chewer Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield wounds one of the servants of the Red Widow, cutting his cheek with the tip of his sword. He later downplays the wound, saying that it's just a little claret -- a type of wine -- on the man's cheek. Brynden Blackwood has a wine stain birthmark on his cheek. Biter (whose name may be wordplay on "bitter") bites Brienne's cheek at the inn at the crossroads. where we earlier saw sour leaf chewer Masha Heddle. Brienne is a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall, who voluntarily sustains a cheek injury in an attempt to avoid worse bloodshed with the Red Widow.

Masha might be part of the Asha and Osha group of rhyming characters. Masha's nieces, Willow and Jeyne, take over the inn after Masha dies, and they are almost certainly intended as parallels of Arya and Sansa. So it would make sense that Masha is a parallel, too. Maybe she is a symbolic Catelyn?

I just looked at the character profile for Snatch on the wiki, and the parallel to Bronn is fascinating. Tyrion says, "Bronn's meaner bastard shadow, or I'm Baelor the Beloved." I'm starting to suspect that shadows are the big dark magic weapon of mass destruction in ASOIAF. Melisandre knows how to conjure them in strategic ways, but there are a lot of other shadows we should probably be watching. Tyrion wears a shadow cloak when he descends to the dank cellar of the alchemists to see the stockpile of wildfire grenades. So this Snatch could be a very interesting companion as Tyrion's arc moves to its next stage.

This is a long shot, but I also wonder about a parallel between Snatch and the fool Patchface, with the vaguely rhyming name. Patchface talks about "silver seaweed" in one of his cryptic speeches. In an early attempt at anagramming for clues, I wondered whether silver seaweed might represent "wise red leaves." If Patchface himself is not a parallel for Snatch, he might at least be telling us what we can learn from characters who chew sourleaf.

You've been looking at the red mouths more closely than I have, so I suspect you have many more insights. I look forward to learning more.

[Lollygag]

@Corvo the Crow

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Now that I mentioned it, could the burns be a mark of Rhllor of sorts? Sandor survives his trial by fire against Beric. Jon may appear dead but perhaps he will wake during his funeral when they try to burn him? Are there any other characters who have suffered burns earlier and escape fiery death later?

Continuing from the Wow I Never Noticed That Thread. Thought this was a great addition here. If we think of cold as burning like fire, then Gared certainly qualifies. He has ears burned off by the cold and the Hound has an ear burned off by fire. He survived the Others. Likewise, Craster has lost an ear to the burn of cold and he also survives interactions with the Others.

 AGOT Prologue

"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

 

 

[ravenous reader]

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if it's been covered -- the literal castrations as well as symbolic emasculations are very important. I can't offer a definitive exegesis, but @Crowfood's Daughter has related the castration motif to the Fisher King wound, the 'dolorous stroke.'  

We get references to being 'unmanned' as early as the Prologue, in which that word is repeated twice, so it's key. Further examples include Theon, Varys, other eunuchs such as the Unsullied, Cersei's penis envy directed vs her brothers, viciously cutting them down to size, (not so nimble) Dick who is decapitated with a morningstar, and Yellow Dick's gruesome fate, one might saying 'biting his own tail' like the dragon in the ouroboros, among others.  Then, more controversially, what about Daenerys who magically lobotomised her husband, got him to bite a pillow (in an inversion of what he used to do to her), and then usurped his position, bells, braids and all..?  Not to mention Tormund's missing member jokes, and the subtext of all the lost and broken swords and swordhands.

GRRM has protested that he's Into 'boobies not wieners', contradicting South Park's insinuation that he's 'obsessed with wieners' -- is that why he's apparently so obsessed with removing them..?

[JaneSnow]

Would illness as well be considered under this umbrella of injuries?

[Castellan]

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Exploring the symbols around sourleaf might turn out something along the lines of bitter/sour fruit. Think I figured out the difference between the red mouth symbolism (genuine intent to murder in the moment and in the moment only) as opposed to sourleaf which is linked to characters who have or are somehow complicit in long-term planning of a murder - hence their sourness/bitterness. Characters linked to sourleaf:

1. Yoren - plotted to kill his brother's killer and ended up in the NW for it.

2. Chett - plotted to kill Mormont

3. Marwyn - openly claims to not be trustworthy and supposedly has a murderous past. Up to something surely.

4. Snatch (Tyrion ADWD) - linked to Bronn who is a turncoat sellsword. We'll have to see about him.

5. Bennis (Sworn Sword) - betrayed Dunk

6. It’s being loaded upon the ship Bride in Azure in Qarth. It’s also transporting wine and striped hides and is owned by the Thirteen.

7. Masha Heddle who ran the Inn at the Crossroads

8. The Pious dwarf Brienne meets

9. Emmon Frey - plotting to end Edmure.

10. Arya tries sourleaf but hates it.

 

Masha and the Pious Dwarf stand out. Catelyn notes that Masha used to smile happily, yet notes that those smiles are no longer happy. So she's undergone something which changed her for the worse. With Tyrion, she tells Catelyn to kill him offsite as she wants no involvement in high lord's troubles despite letting Tywin's son be murdered is doing just that. Tywin later treats this as betrayal. Hmmm....

The dwarf certainly has reason to want revenge and be plotting a murder as he claims his compatriots have been murdered. I can't locate the details on him so I'm guessing a more indepth read of him might turn up something. His bloody smile appears while saying the word "Gold?" for Sansa's reward which gives the dwarf a dark air. Perhaps he's a symbolic Tyrion? Tyrion was pious in not forcing Sansa to consummate their marriage. Tyrion had a bulbous penis and the Pious dwarf had a bulbous nose. Tyrion lost his, um, nose, and he is most certainly sour. The dwarf ends up being taken to Cersei.

Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head.

His nose was veined and bulbous, his teeth red from sourleaf, and he was dressed in the brown roughspun robes of a holy brother, with the iron hammer of the Smith dangling down about his thick neck.

 

Might consider a connection between nose injuries and full castration. Wouldn't be the first time these two parts were juxtaposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Camel

 

When I did some rereading after the OP went up, I divided red smiles into two groups - (1) foreshadowing death of the person - the red on teeth of sour leaf - Masha Heddle the iconic case. The red is as if they are being murdered and their own blood is in their mouths. But I think in the Dunk story some boy recruits to the little war over the water source are seen with red smiles, but they do not all die, it could be seen as Dunk fearing their deaths, as its his POV. He is trying to avoid violence. I would put Yoren in the foreshadowing of death class, not as someone who planned a revenge murder.

Blood on lips or mouth - murderous thoughts/nature/foreshadowing committing murder - Cersei and Melisandre - its like they are an animal with the blood of their prey on the lips - like licking the lips of blood of the victim. Its less common than the red sour leaf teeth.

Might be worth going through your list and seeing of this works or not.

 

[Castellan]

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm considering treating pale eyes as something like a birth defect = character defect. This wouldn't apply to eyes which are pale due to old age (Old Nan, Barristan) or the sick. There's a lot of consistency of pale eyes for colder characters. Not a full list:

Viserys

Bran’s would-be killer

Tywin

The Boltons

 Ilyn Payne

Jon Con (Tyrion compares his pale eyes to Tywin's)

Lysa

Selyse

Mandon Moore

Emmon Frey

The wights

Ilyn Payne is the most obvious pale eyed character. He represents death, the Stranger (cadaverous appearance). I think the pale eyed people (possibly excepting Emmon Frey) are seen as cold observers. Eyes can project warmth, liveliness, emotion, engagement, but theirs don't.

The Boltons eyes are the coldest - like chips of ice. This has led some readers to propose that the Boltons have an Other ancestor. It could also just help convey that they are family with a strong streak of psychopathy.

Mandon Moore is described as emotionless, beating Sansa with no emotion at all, he is almost like an animated corpse. 

Tyrion thinks of Jon Con's eyes as pale when comparing him mentally to Tywin and resenting his cold judgemental attitude. But this is Jon Con old and doing his duty but having lost everything he held dear. Both he and Tywin probably actually had attractive eyes when young, or when not viewed by Tyrion.

I might go check out some of the others on your list. Pale eyes on middle aged neurotic women (Selyse and Lysa) could indicate their self obsession and lack of warmth and their reserve - analogous to the Boltons but from different causes. Viserys - could it just be the otherworldliness that seems to hang around the Targs - a faery property, or a freakish property, the wrong side of the Targ coin. Although with his lack of understanding of other people and his own obsessiveness and anger he is like Selyse and Lysa. 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

@Corvo the Crow

Continuing from the Wow I Never Noticed That Thread. Thought this was a great addition here. If we think of cold as burning like fire, then Gared certainly qualifies. He has ears burned off by the cold and the Hound has an ear burned off by fire. He survived the Others. Likewise, Craster has lost an ear to the burn of cold and he also survives interactions with the Others.

 AGOT Prologue

 

"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

 

 

 

 

So fire burns save from fiery death and cold burns save from a cold one? It makes sense.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Exploring the symbols around sourleaf might turn out something along the lines of bitter/sour fruit. Think I figured out the difference between the red mouth symbolism (genuine intent to murder in the moment and in the moment only) as opposed to sourleaf which is linked to characters who have or are somehow complicit in long-term planning of a murder - hence their sourness/bitterness. Characters linked to sourleaf:

Someone a while back had a great post on sourleaf and death. @Lost Melnibonean maybe?

[Lollygag]

On 6/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

I'm lovin' this. I like the "impulse to kill" explanation, but I think your next insights might be even more to the point: these sourleaf characters seem to be "evil twins" or remote agents or -- dare I say it? -- daemons of characters we have seen elsewhere. Bran and Arya both taste blood in their mouths when their wolves make a kill. Maybe the chewers of sourleaf are like those direwolves, out ranging and making kills that provide a (false) sense of "nourishment" for a major character.

I think the bolded is exactly right. Sourleaf is also a painkiller, a Westerosi opioid which didn't catch on due to it's bad taste and unattractiveness. It also plays into the revenge themes of the series where characters use revenge as a painkiller and a solution to their problems. I think you have it right: the bloody/red mouth is quite straight forward, but sourleaf in contrast is much more complicated. It makes sense: if a bloody/red mouth is about the urge to kill in the moment, it wouldn't need to be overly complex. Sourleaf is addictive and makes a character's mouth bloody over an extended period of time thus creating a more complicated situation.

On 6/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

But here's a different, related loop, if you think sour leaf and lemons might be linked: Cersei does not like washing her mouth with lemons, even though it's supposedly good for her teeth. Emmon Frey (one of the three Emmon lemons in the books) is the Frey most closely linked to the Lannister family and he is a red-mouthed chewer of sour leaf. The Freys were the blood thirsty implementers of the Red Wedding. Therefore, Emmon Frey is a symbolic direwolf for Cersei. Emmon wants Edmure Tully to die so his claim to Riverrun will be free of challengers. Brynden "Blackfish" Tully escapes Riverrun, apparently living up to his trout sigil by swimming out into the Trident under a gate. (There has to be deliberate symbolism around the "Trident," meaning "three teeth" and the dental hygiene associated with lemons.)

Emmon Frey becoming Cersei's teeth in the Riverlands would make a lot of sense. Jaime has just resigned from the job and it would be natural to turn to Aunt Genna and Uncle Emmon.

 

On 6/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Masha might be part of the Asha and Osha group of rhyming characters. Masha's nieces, Willow and Jeyne, take over the inn after Masha dies, and they are almost certainly intended as parallels of Arya and Sansa. So it would make sense that Masha is a parallel, too. Maybe she is a symbolic Catelyn?

Some of the characters like Yoren and Chett stand on their own, not that they don't also have parallels, but the Pious Dwarf and Masha don't warrant this complex treatment, though I do think there's a backstory to Masha. I agree that Catelyn is my first guess. She's felt murderous towards Tyrion for a long time at this point fitting the sourleaf pattern and she's using revenge as a painkiller as evidenced by her despondency over Bran when it was an accident and no one was to blame in contrast to her become hyper-focused once she had a target in the catspaw. Catelyn is being calculating and careful with Tyrion but Masha may represent Catelyn's real feelings on the matter as Masha bypasses trial, discussion, negotiation, etc and goes straight to killing him:

AGOT Tyrion IV

Scarlet-tinged spittle flew from the fat innkeep's mouth as she begged of Catelyn Stark, "Don't kill him here!"

"Don't kill him anywhere," Tyrion urged.

 

On 6/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

I just looked at the character profile for Snatch on the wiki, and the parallel to Bronn is fascinating. Tyrion says, "Bronn's meaner bastard shadow, or I'm Baelor the Beloved." I'm starting to suspect that shadows are the big dark magic weapon of mass destruction in ASOIAF. Melisandre knows how to conjure them in strategic ways, but there are a lot of other shadows we should probably be watching. Tyrion wears a shadow cloak when he descends to the dank cellar of the alchemists to see the stockpile of wildfire grenades. So this Snatch could be a very interesting companion as Tyrion's arc moves to its next stage.

AGOT Jon I

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

On 6/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

This is a long shot, but I also wonder about a parallel between Snatch and the fool Patchface, with the vaguely rhyming name. Patchface talks about "silver seaweed" in one of his cryptic speeches. In an early attempt at anagramming for clues, I wondered whether silver seaweed might represent "wise red leaves." If Patchface himself is not a parallel for Snatch, he might at least be telling us what we can learn from characters who chew sourleaf.

Patchface technically belongs in the red mouth club for Mel's vision, but I think Mel has this wrong and it's the fool Bowen Marsh that she's really seeing. If it is Bowen Marsh, he belongs to the pomegranate group along with LF. Could Patchface be a bridge of sorts between Snatch and Bowen Marsh? Also, note that Marsh loses part of his ear and from that point on he can only hear/sing one song.

ADWD Jon X

Melisandre's face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."

…

"I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now."

 

ADWD Jon III

Bowen Marsh edged his mount up next to Jon's. "This is a day I never thought to see." The Lord Steward had thinned notably since suffering a head wound at the Bridge of Skulls. Part of one ear was gone. He no longer looks much like a pomegranate, Jon thought. Marsh said, "We bled to stop the wildlings at the Gorge. Good men were slain there, friends and brothers. For what?"

ADWD Jon V

Bowen was a good man in his way, but the wound he had taken at the Bridge of Skulls had hardened his attitudes, and the only song he ever sang now was his familiar refrain about sealing the gates.

 

 

[Lollygag]

14 hours ago, Castellan said:

When I did some rereading after the OP went up, I divided red smiles into two groups - (1) foreshadowing death of the person - the red on teeth of sour leaf - Masha Heddle the iconic case. The red is as if they are being murdered and their own blood is in their mouths. But I think in the Dunk story some boy recruits to the little war over the water source are seen with red smiles, but they do not all die, it could be seen as Dunk fearing their deaths, as its his POV. He is trying to avoid violence. I would put Yoren in the foreshadowing of death class, not as someone who planned a revenge murder.

Blood on lips or mouth - murderous thoughts/nature/foreshadowing committing murder - Cersei and Melisandre - its like they are an animal with the blood of their prey on the lips - like licking the lips of blood of the victim. Its less common than the red sour leaf teeth.

Might be worth going through your list and seeing of this works or not.

 

I have to admit that I'm a bit hesitant about foreshadowing right now so it's not really on my radar. I've seen quite a few instances of foreshadowing for events already come to pass that are very complex chains which are about impossible to spot unless it's after the event's already passed and one is looking for the foreshadowing. I've seen a lot of foreshadowing from the early books which clearly were not foreshadowing as that event didn't come to pass and circumstances dictate it's no longer possible to come to pass. I don't recall the actual details, but Seams found the largest foreshadowing chain sequence I've seen which looked like it consisted of most if not all of a chapter on the Tourney of the Hand I think. Lately I look more to plot set up than foreshadowing.

I don't doubt that some of the sourleaf symbolism is foreshadowing. I tend to see some of these things as interconnected anyhow: for example, revenge murder leads to living by the sword/dying by the sword fates making it also potential foreshadowing in itself. Revenge murder also gets treatment across all kinds of books/tv/movies as killing one's own soul if not one's body, so that might make revenge murder a foreshadowing of just soul-death, not literal death.

14 hours ago, Castellan said:

Ilyn Payne is the most obvious pale eyed character. He represents death, the Stranger (cadaverous appearance). I think the pale eyed people (possibly excepting Emmon Frey) are seen as cold observers. Eyes can project warmth, liveliness, emotion, engagement, but theirs don't.

The Boltons eyes are the coldest - like chips of ice. This has led some readers to propose that the Boltons have an Other ancestor. It could also just help convey that they are family with a strong streak of psychopathy.

Mandon Moore is described as emotionless, beating Sansa with no emotion at all, he is almost like an animated corpse. 

Tyrion thinks of Jon Con's eyes as pale when comparing him mentally to Tywin and resenting his cold judgemental attitude. But this is Jon Con old and doing his duty but having lost everything he held dear. Both he and Tywin probably actually had attractive eyes when young, or when not viewed by Tyrion.

I might go check out some of the others on your list. Pale eyes on middle aged neurotic women (Selyse and Lysa) could indicate their self obsession and lack of warmth and their reserve - analogous to the Boltons but from different causes. Viserys - could it just be the otherworldliness that seems to hang around the Targs - a faery property, or a freakish property, the wrong side of the Targ coin. Although with his lack of understanding of other people and his own obsessiveness and anger he is like Selyse and Lysa. 

I agree with the cold observer interpretation. Tywin's eyes especially are often linked to cold. Also agree that there's some complexity going on here which is worth looking into further.

[JaneSnow]

Do you want me to see if I can compile a whole list of pale eyes or do you already have that? I'm good with lists

[Seams]

On 6/16/2018 at 2:22 AM, Lollygag said:

I'm considering treating pale eyes as something like a birth defect = character defect. This wouldn't apply to eyes which are pale due to old age (Old Nan, Barristan) or the sick. There's a lot of consistency of pale eyes for colder characters. Not a full list:

Viserys

Bran’s would-be killer

Tywin

The Boltons

 Ilyn Payne

Jon Con (Tyrion compares his pale eyes to Tywin's)

Lysa

Selyse

Mandon Moore

Emmon Frey

The wights

 

13 minutes ago, JaneSnow said:

Do you want me to see if I can compile a whole list of pale eyes or do you already have that? I'm good with lists

Sure! Bring it on. The ice / eyes pun is so important in the series - understanding all of the pale eyes characters is probably a good exercise, and certainly relevant to patterns of death. (Now I'm also think of a pale / impale pun . . . )

[JaneSnow]

Pale eye list

Ilyn Payne

Viserys Targaryen

The guy that tried to kill Bran

Old Nan

Barristan Selmy

Samwell Tarly

Lysa Tully

Roose Bolton

Tywin Lannister

Selyse Baratheon

Ser Mandon Moore

Ser Emmon Frey

Leobald Tallhart

Ser Robar Royce

Dagmer Cleftjaw

Ramsey Snow

Davos Seaworth

Mero

Val

The fat fellow that visited the House of Black and White

Summer

Jon Connington

Wyman Manderly

Wights

Harry the Heir

Ser Criston Cole

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

17 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Pale eye list

Ilyn Payne

Viserys Targaryen

The guy that tried to kill Bran

Old Nan

Barristan Selmy

Samwell Tarly

Lysa Tully

Roose Bolton

Tywin Lannister

Selyse Baratheon

Ser Mandon Moore

Ser Emmon Frey

Leobald Tallhart

Ser Robar Royce

Dagmer Cleftjaw

Ramsey Snow

Davos Seaworth

Mero

Val

The fat fellow that visited the House of Black and White

Summer

Jon Connington

Wyman Manderly

Wights

Harry the Heir

Ser Criston Cole

 

 

 

Great list!

Val's eyes go from pale grey to blue when she returns from fetching Tormund. I'm unsure as to how to interpret that. Harry's eyes are reported by LF as dark blue, but Sansa later describes them as pale blue.

Davos has brown eyes, but when he is stranded on the island, his eyes are described as pale, no specific color distinguished. Some speculate that Davos actually died. If not, the passage indicates sickness. Barristan, Old Nan and Pycelle are distinguished as having pale eyes due to age, so it may indicate physical sickness in some characters. By extension, maybe psychological or emotional sickness in others?

ACOK Prologue

Davos was a slight man, his low birth written plain upon a common face. A well-worn green cloak, stained by salt and spray and faded from the sun, draped his thin shoulders, over brown doublet and breeches that matched brown eyes and hair.

ASOS Davos I

Davos watched the sail swell through pale red-rimmed eyes, and tried to hear the sound of the wind caught in the canvas. She is coming this way. Unless she changed course soon, she would pass within hailing distance of his meager refuge. It might mean life. If he wanted it. He was not sure he did.

 

AFFC Alayne II

"And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told." He teased her with a smile. "Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the riverlands and the Reach as well."

 

TWOW Alayne spoilers for Harry's description. 

Spoiler

TWOW Alayne I

Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose. Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.