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Patterns in wounds and deaths - please help compile a list.


Seams

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3 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Any other lists you want? I can divide them by location of the injury or type of injury or both. I seriously love doing stuff like this

Its a great list. I haven't looked at them all yet. I searched just on 'pale eyes' (which misses some of course) and still think that they do not always mean the same thing.

Ilyn, the Boltons, Mandon Moore, and the would be assassin of Bran to me have the most symbolic meaning - death, otherworldliness, enigmatic (The assassins description is actually a washed out version of Ilyn Payne).

Sam and Emmon Frey - both the instances I found were when they were feeling powerless afraid and probably exhausted - Emmon when brought out of the dungeon before the Starks and Sam when stuck into armour and sent for arms training on his first day in the NW. They are both ineffectual people (Sam changes) and afraid so it still fits my general idea that while eyes can project liveliness, emotion, personality, thoughts, these two are overwhelmed and have feeble sort of eyes in these scenes at least. 

Jon and Tywin as seem by Tyrion - cold deliberately emotionless surveying of Tyrion. It occurs in the scene where Jon Con interviews Tyrion and also when he tells him he has to lay off the alcohol.

Must have a look at the new ones.

 

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59 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Its a great list. I haven't looked at them all yet. I searched just on 'pale eyes' (which misses some of course) and still think that they do not always mean the same thing.

Ilyn, the Boltons, Mandon Moore, and the would be assassin of Bran to me have the most symbolic meaning - death, otherworldliness, enigmatic (The assassins description is actually a washed out version of Ilyn Payne).

Sam and Emmon Frey - both the instances I found were when they were feeling powerless afraid and probably exhausted - Emmon when brought out of the dungeon before the Starks and Sam when stuck into armour and sent for arms training on his first day in the NW. They are both ineffectual people (Sam changes) and afraid so it still fits my general idea that while eyes can project liveliness, emotion, personality, thoughts, these two are overwhelmed and have feeble sort of eyes in these scenes at least. 

Jon and Tywin as seem by Tyrion - cold deliberately emotionless surveying of Tyrion. It occurs in the scene where Jon Con interviews Tyrion and also when he tells him he has to lay off the alcohol.

Must have a look at the new ones.

 

Maybe I could include the context as well in future lists? Also do you have a complete list for red/bloodstained lips yet?

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43 minutes ago, JaneSnow said:

Maybe I could include the context as well in future lists? Also do you have a complete list for red/bloodstained lips yet?

I have a lot of the content for pale eyes. I can adapt your list by adding referenced quotes in spoilers under each name.

I looked at red mouths and lips ages ago and don't have a list, so if you want to do it, please do! Its worth checking the Dunk and Egg tales for it too.

I looked at bites once because Brienne;s bite seems so cruel - and horrifying to read, I have not really gotten over it - and as one writer points out on another forum its almost like the author fetishises the abuse and insults Brienne receives and the bite is certainly their horrible culmination. Anyway, one thing I found was some sinister mouth and teeth imagery in Brienne's chapters preceding that chapter. Its good to delve into the detail of imagery.

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Red/Bloody Lips List

Bronn's lips are smashed and bloody after his fight with Ser Vardis Egan when he represented Tyrion in trial by combat to prove he was innocent of trying to kill Bran.

Ser Loras has a split and bloody lip after his fight with Brienne.

Arya mentions not wanting to interrupt Chiswyck in fear of receiving a bloody lip.

Alayaya has bloody, broken lips after being beaten via Cersei's orders

At the beginning of AFFC, shortly after his mother's death when Sansa goes to get Sweetrobin ready, he's been crying. His lip is bloody where he has beaten it.

When Cersei protests Tommen being trained by Loras in fear of him being injured, Loras counters by saying that "Bruises and bloody lips are part of being a knight."

Masha Heddle, the innkeep, has stained red teeth from always chewing sourleaf.

Melisandre has red lips

Joffrey's lips are described as being as red and soft as worms

Yoren mentions a Night's Watch recruit that tried to kill him and got a 'red smile for his trouble'

Sweet Donnel Hill, one of the boys that was planning on deserting with Chett, is described as having red lips as well as claiming to be a Lannister bastard

When Littlefinger and Sansa talk and eat fruit together before they take off for the Vale, Littlefinger's lips are red from the pomegranate seeds.

Just before Catelyn dies, she can taste the blood on her lips

Maggy the Frog is described as having 'glistening red lips'

Daeron sang of 'red, red lips.'

Nymeria, on of the Sand Snake, has 'wine-red' lips

Melisandre claims to have seen Patchface in her fires, surrounded by skulls, with lips red with blood.

 

 

 

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I suspect the bloody mouths imagery is also connected to the sigil of House Lonmouth, skulls and kisses.

The consensus in this forum is pretty strong that Lem Lemoncloak is actually Ser Richard Lonmouth, a close friend and Rhaegar loyalist. He seems to have turned into a bloodthirsty executioner for Lady Stoneheart after wearing the Hound's helmet. Does the helmet represent a skull? If so, where is the kiss to go with the skull? (Maybe it's the "unkiss" that Sansa remembers from her encounter with the Hound in her bedchamber.)

Besides Richard, the only other named individual Lonmouth was Joffrey, who was the lover of Laenor Velaryon, husband of princess Rhaenyra. Joffrey died when his helm cracked by a blow from a morningstar during a tourney. While Joffrey had represented Laenor in the tourney, the blow was delivered by Criston Cole, a former supporter of Rhaenyra but now fighting with the sponsorship of Queen Alicent, the rival queen in the Dance of the Dragons. So Joffrey's story might show both the kisses (his relationship with Laenor) and the skull (a cracked helmet).

The words of House Lonmouth are, "The choice is yours." Is the choice between skulls and kisses? Death and love? Or?

This red mouth motif needs some more exploration, so thank you for keeping this going. Maybe we can look at cracked helms and, specifically, blows from a morningstar, when we finish with the red lips. The morningstars probably relate to Dawn and Morne. Brienne defeats Ser Loras with a morningstar in the melee at Bitterbridge and Ser Dontos uses a melon morningstar on Sansa's head when he tries to divert Joffrey's wrath after Robb's victory over Lannister forces.

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15 hours ago, Seams said:

This red mouth motif needs some more exploration

Just spitballing: red lips for having tasted the weirwood seed paste, which looks like blood, so the vision was pointing to Patchface being someone who would have drunk from the same cup Bran is now drinking. In short, saying he's a greenseer.

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Cracked/Broken Helms List

When Renly is unhorsed by the Hound in the tourney in AGOT, one of the antlers is snapped on his helm

The giant's skull that Rattleshirt uses as a helm is broken

Sandor hits an unnamed knight at the Twins when outside of the red wedding in the head with an axe, 'crashing through his helm and the skull beneath'

In the fight that gave him a head injury that lead to the end of his fighting days, Merrett Frey's helm was broken

In the melee at Bitterbridge, Brienne broke Robin Potter's helm

While traveling together Ser Hyle Hunt finds a broken helm and offers it to Pod, who declines.

Sam's helm is shattered when Thorne makes Halter beat him up

During Joff's wedding, one of the dwarves that is fighting has his helm shattered

(Haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories yet so I can't give context, but if someone could add it that would be nice)

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Blows from a Morningstar

Tyrion is hit by a Morningstar and falls off his horse when fighting at Green Fork.

Brienne unhorses Red Ronnet with a Morningstar during the melee at Bitterbridge.

At the same melee, Brienne smacks Ser Loras with her Morningstar a bit but her blows are blocked by his shield.

Ser Dontos smacks Sansa with the melon Morningstar in an attempt to satisfy Joff

Shagwell hits Nimble Dick in the knee with a triple Morningstar

Ser Loras fought with a Morningstar at Dragonstone, 'slaying left and right'

Dorea Sand of the Sand Snakes knocks oranges off of trees with her Morningstar

(Perhaps I could do head injuries in general?)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 22 June 2018 at 2:15 AM, JaneSnow said:

Cracked/Broken Helms List

When Renly is unhorsed by the Hound in the tourney in AGOT, one of the antlers is snapped on his helm

The giant's skull that Rattleshirt uses as a helm is broken

Sandor hits an unnamed knight at the Twins when outside of the red wedding in the head with an axe, 'crashing through his helm and the skull beneath'

In the fight that gave him a head injury that lead to the end of his fighting days, Merrett Frey's helm was broken

In the melee at Bitterbridge, Brienne broke Robin Potter's helm

While traveling together Ser Hyle Hunt finds a broken helm and offers it to Pod, who declines.

Sam's helm is shattered when Thorne makes Halter beat him up

During Joff's wedding, one of the dwarves that is fighting has his helm shattered

(Haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories yet so I can't give context, but if someone could add it that would be nice)

and Jaime is stuck in his helmet at the tourney of the hand, I think.

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On 6/21/2018 at 12:36 PM, JaneSnow said:

Blows from a Morningstar

Tyrion is hit by a Morningstar and falls off his horse when fighting at Green Fork.

Brienne unhorses Red Ronnet with a Morningstar during the melee at Bitterbridge.

At the same melee, Brienne smacks Ser Loras with her Morningstar a bit but her blows are blocked by his shield.

Ser Dontos smacks Sansa with the melon Morningstar in an attempt to satisfy Joff

Shagwell hits Nimble Dick in the knee with a triple Morningstar

Ser Loras fought with a Morningstar at Dragonstone, 'slaying left and right'

Dorea Sand of the Sand Snakes knocks oranges off of trees with her Morningstar

(Perhaps I could do head injuries in general?)

In the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread, I just took a close look at the combat between Aerion Brightflame and Ser Duncan the Tall during the Trial of Seven. Much of the detail in that battle supports the notion that Aerion has brought a dragon to fight on his behalf (the image on his shield) and that Dunk then uses that dragon to defeat Aerion, bashing the princeling repeatedly with his own shield until he yields. Before Dunk gets a hold of Aerion's shield, he has a symbolic death and then is nearly done in by Aerion's morningstar:

... the ground rose up to meet him. He landed with a bruising impact that jarred him to the bone and drove the breath from his lungs. ... He knew he had to find his feet again, or die. Groaning, he forced himself to hands and knees. He could not breathe, nor could he see. The eyeslit of his helm was packed with mud. Lurching blindly to his feet, Dunk scraped at the mud with a mailed finger. There, that's . . .

Through his fingers, he glimpsed a dragon flying, and a spiked morningstar whirling on the end of a chain. Then his head seemed to burst to pieces.

... The dragon appeared above him.

Three heads it had, and wings bright as flame, red and yellow and orange. It was laughing. "Are you dead yet, hedge knight?" it asked. ... The dragon laughed again. "No? Eat this, then." The spiked ball whirled round and round the sky, and fell toward his head as fast as a shooting star.

Dunk rolled.

Where he found the strength he did not know, but he found it. He rolled into Aerion's legs, threw a steel-clad arm around his thigh, dragged him cursing into the mud and rolled on top of him. Let him swing his bloody morningstar now.

(The Hedge Knight)

That passage seems to bring together a number of those folk explanations of the comet that appeared in the sky in AGoT and ACoK - it's a dragon, a red hot sword fresh from a hot forge, an omen of bloodshed, the herald of a new season or a new king. It also conflates the comet beliefs with the shooting star that Dunk sees at his grassy green campsite under the stars. The author almost certainly wants us to connect the weapon called a morningstar with a weapon called Dawn, made from a comet fallen to earth; possibly also to a weapon called Lightbringer.

There is also a lot of imagery to match Bran's fall after Jaime pushes him off the wall of the old keep - hitting the ground, losing his legs, opening his third eye, "eating" something and finding a power he did not know he had.

I think people struck with a morningstar have a special reborn status. Even those who die (e.g., Nimble Dick) are probably reborn in other forms, but with something special added.

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