Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

[MinscS2]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

@MinscS2

After seeing this meme i am 100% certain she is pregnant 

https://i.redd.it/ml3sr54watmz.jpg

Interesting catch, I didn't actually think about that Tyrion says "You're pregnant" and then it cuts to Jon and Daenerys talking about baby dragons.
That's some typical GoT-foreshadowing, like the fact that the very first word Davos learns to read is "Aegon".

[jcmontea]

5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Interesting catch, I didn't actually think about that Tyrion says "You're pregnant" and then it cuts to Jon and Daenerys talking about baby dragons.
That's some typical GoT-foreshadowing, like the fact that the very first word Davos learns to read is "Aegon".

Yup. Or how in 7x01 and 7x02 the scenes transition from Littlefinger straight to Arya the person who will slit his throat. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

The Targaryen Incest  was always icky and resulted half or so of demented offspring. They inbred to try and keep their blood pure so as to better control their dragons but clearly, many of them had the hots for each other and that was REALLY Icky. I believe we are supposed to see this relationship as a sort of Oedipus Rex scenario. I do not think Jon will go to the lengths that Oedi did but when the wars are over, when the dust settles and depending who is left alive, it could get complicated.

[jcmontea]

18 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Targaryen Incest  was always icky and resulted half or so of demented offspring. They inbred to try and keep their blood pure so as to better control their dragons but clearly, many of them had the hots for each other and that was REALLY Icky. I believe we are supposed to see this relationship as a sort of Oedipus Rex scenario. I do not think Jon will go to the lengths that Oedi did but when the wars are over, when the dust settles and depending who is left alive, it could get complicated.

I am going to go out on a limb and say Cersei was right but about the wrong person "No one walks away from Daenerys Targaryen" 

But more seriously, why do you think this is an Oedipus situation? If i recall correctly a big part of Oedipus was that there was a secret prophecy he was trying to avoid but he inadvertently fulfills it through the act of killing a man on the street who was his father and sleeping with his mother unknowlinlgy. When they find out his mother kills herself because she realizes she married both her son and her husband's murderer. 

Aside from sleeping with a relative who he doesn't know is a relative, a lot of the tropes from Oedipus seem to be missing here. Also, sleeping with your mother is a much more grave situation than an aunt. 

[jcmontea]

@Lord Varys

question for you. Reading the Rogue Prince right now and it mentions that Daemon petitioned King Viserys to set aside his marriage to Lady Runeston which was declined. 

Is it explained at all anywhere what the rules for setting aside a marriage are? Is it only the King who can grant the request? 

Obviously curious in light of what the show portrayed regarding Rhaegar's annulment. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

@Lord Varys

question for you. Reading the Rogue Prince right now and it mentions that Daemon petitioned King Viserys to set aside his marriage to Lady Runeston which was declined. 

Is it explained at all anywhere what the rules for setting aside a marriage are? Is it only the King who can grant the request? 

Obviously curious in light of what the show portrayed regarding Rhaegar's annulment. 

Since Maegor and Jaehaerys I took all power away from the Faith the king effectively controlled the Faith as well. If the king grants you a divorce or annulment (or whatever 'setting aside your wife' means) then the Faith is going to grant it, too.

That is a huge portion of the fact why it makes no sense that Rhaegar would have set aside Elia - Aerys II would have never given him permission to do so nor would the High Septon dared to do something like that without the king's permission. The other is that Rhaegar would have never done something like that could potentially be so harmful to his children by Elia.

[jcmontea]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Maegor and Jaehaerys I took all power away from the Faith the king effectively controlled the Faith as well. If the king grants you a divorce or annulment (or whatever 'setting aside your wife' means) then the Faith is going to grant it, too.

That is a huge portion of the fact why it makes no sense that Rhaegar would have set aside Elia - Aerys II would have never given him permission to do so nor would the High Septon dared to do something like that without the king's permission. The other is that Rhaegar would have never done something like that could potentially be so harmful to his children by Elia.

Interesting. Thanks for the answer. 

Is it confirmed in universe some where that setting aside your wife meant your children become bastards? 

[Shmedricko]

On 9/20/2017 at 6:44 AM, jcmontea said:

Is it confirmed in universe some where that setting aside your wife meant your children become bastards? 

Not that I know of. But there was an example cut from TWOIAF where the reverse was true -- bastard children produced prior to a marriage were rendered legitimate once their parents married. From Linda:

"We do have an example of course from The World of Ice and Fire where children who were produced prior to the marriage were rendered legitimate by the marriage."

And Elio:

"Linda's referring to a detail from George's material that was cut from The World of Ice and Fire, but will be appearing in Fire and Blood, relating to a situation where Lord Hightower took up with his step-mother following his father's death.

The High Septon refused to countenance the relationship and would not allow them to marry, but they continued it and had a number of children. Eventually a new High Septon allowed the marriage and the children were rendered legitimate."

[Shmedricko]

Earlier in the thread there was some discussion about how in the Inside the Episode segment for S7E7, after D.B. Weiss talked about Jon's parentage/legitimacy causing problems in his and Dany's relationship, there was a quick "And she's his aunt" tacked on at the end. However, in the corresponding segment in Game Revealed, we got to hear his next sentence, which I think changes the context:

"And she's his aunt. So, there's that, if that kind of thing would bother you."

The fact that this off-handed comment was specifically addressed towards the audience gave me the impression that although they know some viewers may be uncomfortable with this information, it's not really going to be an issue which comes up much, if at all, in the actual show. I mean, this section of the video was even titled "All in the Family."

[Beardy the Wildling]

On 01/09/2017 at 4:42 PM, Noelle Snow said:

He was raised a Stark, or at least in the ways of the Starks

Ned Stark's parents were first cousins. The more you know.

[A Ghost of Someone]

A huge difference between First cousins and aunt and Nephew, especially when that Aunt's parents were brother and sister and theirs were as well. The snowball effect on this does not help the situation.

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

A huge difference between First cousins and aunt and Nephew, especially when that Aunt's parents were brother and sister and theirs were as well. The snowball effect on this does not help the situation.

The aunts parents being brother and sister is irrelvant. That only matters from a genetics perspective and these people don’t know genetics so that wouldn’t be a watsonian explanation for anything. And its not even a good doyalist explanation since most people in the real world also don’t know genetics. 

The Stark famiy tree also has avunculate relationships so not really sure the incest angle is supposed to be the deal breaker here.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The aunts parents being brother and sister is irrelvant. That only matters from a genetics perspective and these people don’t know genetics so that wouldn’t be a watsonian explanation for anything. And its not even a good doyalist explanation since most people in the real world also don’t know genetics. 

The Stark famiy tree also has avunculate relationships so not really sure the incest angle is supposed to be the deal breaker here.

 

Well, there is enough acknowledgement of incest being an abomination on the show for that to be considered. I doubt the show runners would bring it up outright. They like to ignore certain things when it suits them. The Targaryens heavily inbred, it is part of their lore and while stating that might make it seem like a dismissal of this potential relationship, they are certainly known in the show Universe for having a lot of madness.

Regarding the Stark family tree, that was in the books and yes, there was a half-Uncle Neice relationship that saved the family name and seems to have been concluded to do that very thing. The Targs, going back to their Valaryian origins, have done this sort of thing nearly every generation. Again, that is books though too but it implies that since it has been so repeated over the millenia, that there is genuine attractions between Targaryians that occur without pre arrangement.

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, there is enough acknowledgement of incest being an abomination on the show for that to be considered. I doubt the show runners would bring it up outright. They like to ignore certain things when it suits them. The Targaryens heavily inbred, it is part of their lore and while stating that might make it seem like a dismissal of this potential relationship, they are certainly known in the show Universe for having a lot of madness.

Regarding the Stark family tree, that was in the books and yes, there was a half-Uncle Neice relationship that saved the family name and seems to have been concluded to do that very thing. The Targs, going back to their Valaryian origins, have done this sort of thing nearly every generation. Again, that is books though too but it implies that since it has been so repeated over the millenia, that there is genuine attractions between Targaryians that occur without pre arrangement.

I buy them deciding not to breed because of the history in their family of madness. That seems plausible. I don’t buy them having an appreciation that because of all the prior inbreeding their relationship is more risky than a normal aunt nephew relationship would be. 

Although it might be a moot point since she is probably already pregnant. 

[MinscS2]

If you're gonna bring up social stigma, then it's worth considering that cousins and aunts/nephews aren't considered incest in Westeros (nor many modern countries today), only sexual relations between siblings and parents/children is.

Which makes the High Sparrows arrest of Cersei in S5 all the more strange. She was accused of sleeping with Lancel, her cousin, but surely if the faith considered cousins to be incest and hence "immoral/illegal", then it wouldn't be so accepted and widespread throughout Westeros as it already is?
 

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I buy them deciding not to breed because of the history in their family of madness. That seems plausible. I don’t buy them having an appreciation that because of all the prior inbreeding their relationship is more risky than a normal aunt nephew relationship would be. 

Although it might be a moot point since she is probably already pregnant. 

The show has certainly cast that vibe.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Ned Stark's parents were first cousins. The more you know.

Cousins once removed, which means something like three more bloodlines introduced and one more relation step away from each other. The more you know. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

If you're gonna bring up social stigma, then it's worth considering that cousins and aunts/nephews aren't considered incest in Westeros (nor many modern countries today), only sexual relations between siblings and parents/children is.

Yes it is, as a maester in the World book and in Sons of the Dragon explain. 

And this is fantasy world with an author who created his own rules, so ZERO real world comparisons apply. 

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The show has certainly cast that vibe.

Yea. At this point its chekov’s pregnancy. 

Not sure how they could have possibly foreshadowed it more aggressively without someone looking at the camera and saying Jon is getting her pregnant.

[jcmontea]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

If you're gonna bring up social stigma, then it's worth considering that cousins and aunts/nephews aren't considered incest in Westeros (nor many modern countries today), only sexual relations between siblings and parents/children is.

Which makes the High Sparrows arrest of Cersei in S5 all the more strange. She was accused of sleeping with Lancel, her cousin, but surely if the faith considered cousins to be incest and hence "immoral/illegal", then it wouldn't be so accepted and widespread throughout Westeros as it already is?
 

 

Why do you think the High Sparrow acuses her of incest for sleeping with Lancel? 

When cersei confesses she frames it as sleeping with someone outside of marriage.