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King Jon Snow Stark

Warden of The North

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14 hours ago, The Knight of Flours said:

a - Sansa's internet-bro now knows Jon is really a Targ now and so may be able to be un-chosen/replaced as King of the North

Half Stark. Which makes it interesting. 

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21 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Half Stark. Which makes it interesting. 

Wrong half. As being the son of Lyanna he will be behind Arya in line for the North. When he was Ned's bastard at least he was the Lord's last son. 

25 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Dragons can slaughter wights by the thousands, the only question is how effective dragons are in fighting other dragons.

When they are evading projectiles? White Walkers don't burn either. How long before they get 2 good shots in?

Also remember the storm in this episode and its affect on the raven. The bird could barely fly. Remember The Last Storm during the conquest? The dragon couldn't fly.

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27 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Half Stark. Which makes it interesting. 

Jon was never a "Stark" because he didn't use the family name. He says I'm not a Stark ever episode. He was made the north's leader because he was Ned Stark's son. He's not. I think that's one of problems the northern lords will have. 

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1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon was never a "Stark" because he didn't use the family name. He says I'm not a Stark ever episode. He was made the north's leader because he was Ned Stark's son. He's not. I think that's one of problems the northern lords will have. 

Jon's parentage reveal has been hyped for so long because it supposedly makes him the rightful heir to a throne. It would be really interesting if instead of gaining a crown he loses one (and rightfully so).

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42 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Jon's parentage reveal has been hyped for so long because it supposedly makes him the rightful heir to a throne. It would be really interesting if instead of gaining a crown he loses one (and rightfully so).

He's already given up the northern crown according to the letter send Sansa. I think Jon would be more interested in having a mother which is the last thing he asked Ned about. 

He's pledge to Dany so he gave up the irone throne too.

If the lords want Sansa to Warden or Queen, I think Jon will still go around talking about white walkers. I wouldn't surprise if Jon steps down once he finds out he isn't Ned's son. 

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2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon was never a "Stark" because he didn't use the family name. He says I'm not a Stark ever episode. He was made the north's leader because he was Ned Stark's son. He's not. I think that's one of problems the northern lords will have. 

trouble is Northern Lords are going to have to eat humble pie when the WWs come knocking.  I must say I will enjoy that because those Lords in the North are way too proud for me.  Okay, Lyanna in the show is cool because the actress is beyond amazing but hate the Northern Lords.  They are proud but never pragmatic lol

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2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

The Night King must have been a very accomplished archer before he was made into what he is lol either that or the guy got lucky! ong ;)

Or he had 8000 years with nothing to do but wait around for magic to shift again, and it only takes a decade or two of dedicated practice to get really good at it. Hell, he's probably just as good at knife throwing, and knitting, and plate spinning, and close-up magic tricks—with that much time, what else is there to do but become an expert in just about everything?

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2 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Wrong half. As being the son of Lyanna he will be behind Arya in line for the North.

But if I recall correctly Westeros in general and the North in particular prefers male rulers. Has there ever been a "Queen in the North" or "Wardeness of the North"? Plus Jon is older and has commanded. 

They would skip over Arya I'm pretty sure. 

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2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon was never a "Stark" because he didn't use the family name. He says I'm not a Stark ever episode. He was made the north's leader because he was Ned Stark's son. He's not. I think that's one of problems the northern lords will have. 

Except now he is revealed a legitimate Stark child rather than a bastard accident.  

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43 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Except now he is revealed a legitimate Stark child rather than a bastard accident.  

True but they said over and over they don't care he was a bastard because he was Ned's son. 

If they are willing to follow any Stark child. Sansa was right there. He was picked because he was Ned's son no other reason. And she had more rights than Jon Snow or Jon Targaryen.

 

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2 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

But if I recall correctly Westeros in general and the North in particular prefers male rulers. Has there ever been a "Queen in the North" or "Wardeness if the North"? 

Their traditions are roughly similar to Plantagenet England's—especially in that they're a big mess of conflicting precedents that nobody has really thought through. They prefer male rulers, but they also prefer to avoid tracing through the maternal line for the same reason. Picking Sansa or Arya would set a precedent they wouldn't want to set, but so would picking Jon. Which is how England ended up with a few female Queens, a few Kings whose strongest claim was maternal, and a whole lot of civil wars or negotiations to avoid them.

Anyway, they've pretty much avoided the problem so far—Jon is King in the North because he was elected King in the North, not because he's Robb's heir as King or because he's Ned's heir as Lord Paramount, while Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell under King Jon because Jon is out of the running. Once they're both up for the same position, it won't come down to a law, or even a tradition that everyone agrees on; people who prefer one or the other will have enough justification to stick to it, and that's all that will matter.

Fortunately, I doubt either Jon or Sansa will try to press their claim to the point of an armed conflict or a coup, so it isn't going to come up. The Starks will probably decide among themselves who should be in charge, and then basically everyone has to go along with that, because it's very hard to fight for a pretender whe doesn't actually want the job.

Anyway, as far as history goes: We don't know whether there was ever a reigning Queen in the North/Winter's Queen, but I'm pretty sure there was no Wardeness of the North, based on the fact that there are only a few generations missing between King Torrhen and the first Lord Benjen, and there aren't any reigning Ladies counted in the generations we've seen (plus, it looks like Lorra Royce may have ruled for a time as the Widow Stark and she isn't counted, although we won't know what exactly happened there until She-Wolves of Winterfell comes out).

But there are obviously plenty of Ladies who've run other Northern houses—we even see some right now, both in the show and in the books, most famously Lyanna Mormont and her predecessor Lady Maege.

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3 hours ago, falcotron said:

The Starks will probably decide among themselves who should be in charge, and then basically everyone has to go along with that, because it's very hard to fight for a pretender whe doesn't actually want the job.

True. It is probably for the best there is a common enemy to unify all, as the North has shown it's loyalties can be fickle and shifting in times past. And even recently Sansa and Jon clashed on whether to pardon the disloyal houses. Just one example, house Umber was responsible for Rickons death. There might still be future tensions there. Karstarks, a huge house, fought for the Boltons directly against aejon snow. The north so easily could fall into chaos. 

What I'm saying is, the Starks might decide but not everyone will necessarily go with it. 

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3 hours ago, falcotron said:

Anyway, they've pretty much avoided the problem so far—Jon is King in the North because he was elected King in the North, not because he's Robb's heir as King or because he's Ned's heir as Lord Paramount, while Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell under King Jon because Jon is out of the running. Once they're both up for the same position, it won't come down to a law, or even a tradition that everyone agrees on; people who prefer one or the other will have enough justification to stick to it, and that's all that will matter.

Well said.

We even have a precedent for this within the show. During the War of the Five Kings in Season 2, birthright didnt seem to matter too much to Renly's bannermen who supported his claim for the throne over Stannis'. 

Under Westerosi law, Renly had absolutely zero right to the Iron Throne while Stannis lived, yet he staked his claim anyway and amassed a lot of supporters and a large army while doing so.

The Lords will ultimately support who they want to (and the majority of the time, loyalty isnt too much of a factor in that - its more which leader they think will be better for them in terms of their own power, prosperity and status). 

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1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

Under Westerosi law, Renly had absolutely zero right to the Iron Throne while Stannis lived, yet he staked his claim anyway and amassed a lot of supporters and a large army while doing so.

Exactly, there seems to be an understood "right by conquest" that also is accepted. Stake your claim, if you can take it, it's yours. As long as you can hold it. :D

And dragons help. ... 

 

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35 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Exactly, there seems to be an understood "right by conquest" that also is accepted. Stake your claim, if you can take it, it's yours. As long as you can hold it. :D

That too seems to be a lot like England. After William, nobody actually used the term "right of conquest" for centuries, but there were a lot of succession struggles, and in every case, whoever won the war, everyone suddenly agreed that they belonged on the throne.

And, up until Henry Tudor, they generally just left the nerds to work out the legal rationalization after the fact, if even that. For example, why was Stephen the successor to Henry I, and Henry II to Stephen? Because the Treaty of Wallingford between their forces says so, and also, shut up, that's why. We don't see the wording of the treaty that ends the Dance of the Dragons, but I'll bet it's almost identical.

But that "up until Henry Tudor" is interesting, because Dany is the obvious Henry Tudor parallel to end the War of the Five Kings and the traditional medieval era in one fell swoop, marry the only other plausible candidate for the throne, and then get everyone so busy trying to keep up with her radical economic reforms that nobody has time to fight over anything else.

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10 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon was never a "Stark" because he didn't use the family name. He says I'm not a Stark ever episode. He was made the north's leader because he was Ned Stark's son. He's not. I think that's one of problems the northern lords will have. 

I think  we might see 10 min of the first episode, with the northen lords  upset because he has given up the north independency on his own, without asking anyone's opinion. Also, if they decide to go realistic, we would have to expect some frictions and coexistence's problems between the armies. The northerners have just had to reluctantly accept the wildlings , and now they have to make room for the dothraki  and unsullied camps  beside their own (I hope some charitative soul give those folks some furs and a warmer footwear :D)

On the other side, I don't think that Jon not being Ned Stark's biological son would make things so different for them. He still has the Stark blood, he still was raised by Ned,  who called  him son "for all the North to see".  And these are times of war, he is the most suitable to lead, so I'm sure there will be some bitching, but it will last till they know the WW are south of the wall.

It they defeat the WW as most of us expect and hope, and they all survive,  I am confident they'll reach an agreement acceptable to all. If they don't survive... well, then it doesn't matter .

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3 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

I hope some charitative soul give those folks some furs and a warmer footwear

I can't remember—in the show, did the Flints give Stannis's knights winter clothing, or just laugh at how bad the winter clothing they'd brought was?

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20 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

But if I recall correctly Westeros in general and the North in particular prefers male rulers. Has there ever been a "Queen in the North" or "Wardeness of the North"? Plus Jon is older and has commanded. 

They would skip over Arya I'm pretty sure. 

The North are not squeamish about girls although there has never been a QITN, see Lyanna and Alys. There is always a first time. Considering Jon's actions this season I'd argue he's behind dismembered wight Benjen at this point.

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3 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The North are not squeamish about girls although there has never been a QITN, see Lyanna and Alys. There is always a first time. Considering Jon's actions this season I'd argue he's behind dismembered wight Benjen at this point.

They can choose whomever they want as long as it's not Sansa. She's the biggest fool & weakest link on the show. And only a bunch of damn idiots would follow her.  They have made much of the Northern Lords dumb but hopefully not all are damn idiots.  I'm sure the foolish damn idiot show runners will make her the lone Stark survivor & leave her in charge of everything.  Talk about a potential shitty ending...

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