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summitxho

ancient magic in the wall - is it now gone? or still a purpose?

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Benjen Stark mentioned that while the wall stands the dead cannot pass, but the first wight was brought in and reanimated at Castle Black. I guess technically he did not pass through the wall as a wight, he became a wight after he was through the wall, and as we have seen so far we need a WW to reanimate the wight, so that wight was brought back despite the fact the WW was still north of the wall when he did so, we also seen the same when they brought the wight to Kings Landing, but the dead are not supposed to be able to pass through. It has me wondering a bit.

Bran the builder was the builder of the wall and the builder of winterfell. I wonder if the magic in the wall was not to keep the dead from passing, but to make them vulnerable once they had passed, the magic is in the foundations, not necessarily the wall itself, could that magic be serving a different purpose than what everyone thinks? Could the walls purpose not be to keep the WW from invading, but built as a means to defeat the night king once and for all when they returned and crossed over it? May there also be ancient magic in Winterfell that coincides with the magic in the wall to gain victory once and for all and links up to why a Stark should always be in Winterfell? Seems coincidence that Bran the builder built both, and now we have a Bran who is a 3 eyed raven who can travel into the past, and even suggested he may be able to interfere with it.

I imagine a scenario where when the first white walkers attacked, the first men and cotf were able to defeat them, but not destroy them, they knew in the future they would return, and built structures which would give future generations the means to destroy the night King for good. Bran as the three eyed raven travels back in time to the original events to see how the first men and cotf defeated the white walkers in more detail than what the legends tell, he found the WW weakness, but the tools they had at the time were not able to destroy the night king, only drive him back. Bran wargs into Bran the builder, or perhaps one in the same, and gives detailed plans with help from the cotf on what to build for the future to defeat the Night King upon his return. Bran is setting up events purposely to trick the Night King, he was marked deliberately by the Night King goading him into a false sense of security, all these events are set up to entrap the night King since the initial invasion thousands of years prior.

Its possible that the Night King assumed the wall was for keeping them up north, but in reality the magic is under the wall and once they pass through it makes them vulnerable to defeat and was all a ruse by Bran to trick the Night King into making him vulnerable to die for good.

Tinfoil absolutely, but it has me wondering just what the magic is supposed to do in the wall and how it works. Is it now gone, or is it still there serving an ulterior purpose? Just seemed so anti climatic that all it took was an undead dragon when dragons existed back then and they would/should have planned for this.

 

So what do you think, is the magic now gone and dead in the wall, or is there still something there?

 

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Anything is possible, but I think it was strongly hinted that the magic of the CotF was broken when Bran passed through the Wall. It was set up in the cave scene where once Bran was touched the magic wards which kept the Night King out were broken. Once Bran passed through the Wall, it was only then that the dragon would be useful for taking down the actual physical wall. So for all intents and purposes, what actually took down the wall was Bran's passage through it. I do think it is somewhat of a "ruse" (but not technically) in that he knew he had to pass through it in order to set in motion a chain of events which would culminate it the dawn.

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9 hours ago, John Meta said:

Anything is possible, but I think it was strongly hinted that the magic of the CotF was broken when Bran passed through the Wall. It was set up in the cave scene where once Bran was touched the magic wards which kept the Night King out were broken. Once Bran passed through the Wall, it was only then that the dragon would be useful for taking down the actual physical wall. So for all intents and purposes, what actually took down the wall was Bran's passage through it. I do think it is somewhat of a "ruse" (but not technically) in that he knew he had to pass through it in order to set in motion a chain of events which would culminate it the dawn.

I agree Bran broke the Wall by passing through it. I don't think he has a clue that's what happened, or that he needs to set anything in motion.... yet, if that ever happens.

12 hours ago, summitxho said:

Benjen Stark mentioned that while the wall stands the dead cannot pass, but the first wight was brought in and reanimated at Castle Black. I guess technically he did not pass through the wall as a wight, he became a wight after he was through the wall, and as we have seen so far we need a WW to reanimate the wight, so that wight was brought back despite the fact the WW was still north of the wall when he did so, we also seen the same when they brought the wight to Kings Landing, but the dead are not supposed to be able to pass through. It has me wondering a bit.

The dead can't pass on their own.... the corpses at Castle Black were reanimated remotely. The wight they captured was brought across by men, but after Bran broke the Wall. The dead can't pass voluntarily - until Bran broke the Wall, now they can. 

12 hours ago, summitxho said:

Bran the builder was the builder of the wall and the builder of winterfell. I wonder if the magic in the wall was not to keep the dead from passing, but to make them vulnerable once they had passed, the magic is in the foundations, not necessarily the wall itself, could that magic be serving a different purpose than what everyone thinks? Could the walls purpose not be to keep the WW from invading, but built as a means to defeat the night king once and for all when they returned and crossed over it? May there also be ancient magic in Winterfell that coincides with the magic in the wall to gain victory once and for all and links up to why a Stark should always be in Winterfell? Seems coincidence that Bran the builder built both, and now we have a Bran who is a 3 eyed raven who can travel into the past, and even suggested he may be able to interfere with it.

I very much like the idea that Winterfell might have another meaning - the location where Winter Fell, and something is down in the crypts that we've yet to find out about.

Bran can definitely affect the past - however, he may not be able to affect it to the point of changing it. The Hodor Event is - well.... is great drama, but makes no sense - unless Time is something completely different, as in not linear. Don't get me wrong, I'm on the bus. But.... yeah.

Still adding to this post, but I need to reload the page, the ads are locking me up.

EDIT: Ads aren't locking me up on Firefox like they were with Safari. Odd.

I don't think the Wall magic was a ruse.

I think some of your "tinfoiling" isn't bad, it's just super convoluted.

I'm not sure how I feel about Bran worging into anyone in a different time. And we don't know if Bran can worg into someone with a stronger mind than Hodor.

I really hate the theory -

Spoiler

that Bran is the Night King. If they sell it, fine. Buuuuuut, right now my brain says, nopefish.

 

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1 minute ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Bran can definitely affect the past - however, he may not be able to affect it to the point of changing it. The Hodor Event is - well.... is great drama, but makes no sense - unless Time is something completely different, as in not linear.

Time is not linear in our universe, at least not if you take general relativity seriously. It's a very good approximation, so good that we can almost always act as if it does, and causality is nice and simple, but you* can make loops that break the approximation so things get complicated and harder to understand.

Obviously, Bran's magic isn't explained by relativity, but it makes perfect sense than their universe is linearly causal only as a very good approximation, only broken by the exercise of very powerful magic like Bran's.

---

* Well, not you personally, unless you're secretly a member of a much more technologically-advanced race than ours. Or from the future.

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I don't think Bran broke the magic in the wall. He should have but he didn't. Its a bit of a plot hole. Bloodraven wouldn't have got Benjen to take him to the wall otherwise. If Bran broke it, we would be told overtly. Jon and Dany broke the wall with their ridiculous plan.

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It was strongly hinted that Bran broke the magic by going past the wall, I just wonder if this was a move to set us off the scent, that these events were planned in actual fact by multiple versions of Bran as he travels through time, that the ink is written and dry, but it can be amended through small changes in editing the entire piece to give us an entirely different result in the present where the ink is not yet dry (like adding words in between a story, not changing the story as its written, just adding to it to give a different ending). I cannot remember for certain, but did blood raven not say along the lines that "this was not supposed to happen yet" when Bran got the mark of the Night King? I may be remembering incorrectly.

I am having trouble getting my thoughts straight, as is the case with time travel, but the point that bothers me is Hodor already was effected by the speech impediment or whatever you want to call it before Bran traveled back in time for the first time on screen to the "Hold the door" event, so that had to happen previously in a time loop we had not seen for Hodor to be effected during the show, is there not some starting point in time where he would have been normal, before Bran meddled with time? If so, would that not show that being as the events had already unfolded in a previous time loop, would blood raven not have known about all this and done something to prevent it? If not the only reason I can think of is it was meant to happen.

Bran climbing the tower in S1E1, he was not supposed to be climbing as per Catlyn, but he did it anyways. This could be a time amendment, it sets off specific events which steers him to his current state, in previous time maybe he didnt make that climb listening to his mother like a good Stark lad, giving drastically different results.

Bran is saved by Benjen, another event Bran could have orchestrated from previous time travel, again going by memory, but did Benjen not tell him he was sent by the 3 eyed raven? aka Bran. Same thing with Jon, he could have been sent to save Jon at the last moment which is why Benjen knew there was no time to save them both. Hell Bran could have instructed the COTF to save Benjen with the dragonglass in the first place which created his half dead, half alive state, as in time he is supposed to be dead.

Bran travels past the wall, sending Rickon to the Umbers. How important was it to Jon that Rickon died in his arms? Would it have effected the battle at all? Does not seem like it would, but it makes one think that this event had to happen for other events to unfold, the decision to send him to the Umbers was Bran

Bran disobeys blood raven and time jumps on his own, gets marked by the night king, another time amendment creating perhaps not an entirely different future in itself, but an amendment to give us a different circumstance.

Bran says Jon "has to know" about his true parentage, perhaps its because that information will unfold important events.

Ravens were seen with Sam when he first killed a WW with dragonglass, ravens are a sign of the 3 eyed raven, not white walkers, what was their point there? Perhaps to watch that small change in the future where dragon glass is discovered to kill white walkers by Sam. Sam discovered that dragonglass and as Ed noted "someone was meant to find it" Perhaps this could be another nudge by time travelling Bran to create a vastly different outcome.

Just seems to me that everything Bran has done is very much leading to specific events, his actions have led to some very specific places, the final 2 points is definitely stretching I admit. Of course its likely chance and storytelling, but when you throw in the fact he can time travel, and shares the same name as some very important past characters who were heavily invested, for better for worse with the white walkers, it has me wondering if he is in fact tinkering with time to change the present where the ink is not dry.

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On 9/1/2017 at 0:53 PM, summitxho said:

So what do you think, is the magic now gone and dead in the wall, or is there still something there?

I don't mean to sound harsh but apparently there was no "magic" or any other unnatural/supernatural thing on/in the Wall.  Dragons were known to exist for millennia but I guess all it took was *a dragon to blast it down.

Just think it Daenerys wanted for some reason to align with the Night King... she would just have to go up there and blast the Wall with dragon fire and it's that simple.

*I do not opt into the idea that somehow Viscerion being "undead" gave the dragon super powers to be able to take down the Wall with "different" fire than other dragons.  Yes, it's blue.  But other than that, whatever.

The Wall turned out to be one of the weakest things in all GOT.

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3 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I don't mean to sound harsh but apparently there was no "magic" or any other unnatural/supernatural thing on/in the Wall.  Dragons were known to exist for millennia but I guess all it took was *a dragon to blast it down.

Just think it Daenerys wanted for some reason to align with the Night King... she would just have to go up there and blast the Wall with dragon fire and it's that simple.

*I do not opt into the idea that somehow Viscerion being "undead" gave the dragon super powers to be able to take down the Wall with "different" fire than other dragons.  Yes, it's blue.  But other than that, whatever.

The Wall turned out to be one of the weakest things in all GOT.

I actually agree for the most part, which is what got me thinking, was this magic in the wall really that bad? It certainly could have been, and if so I would be disappointing in how it was handled when making the show, but I also think perhaps its a red herring, and the magic in the wall never had anything to do with keeping the Night King out of the south as was widely known, but to entrap him instead and lead to his eventual defeat. I am thinking the wall still has a purpose and is linked with Winterfell somehow.

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...or the cold open of S8, is Bran realizing he broke the Wall... because he's watching the NK riding a dragon, taking down part of the Wall, and heading south at the end of S7. 

They made it a point of showing us how Bran broke the cave. 

They made point of Benjen talking about how the strong magic on the Wall does not allow the dead to pass. 

Just because no one has said it out loud yet, doesn't mean it didn't happen, because up until now, how would Bran know?

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8 hours ago, summitxho said:

I actually agree for the most part, which is what got me thinking, was this magic in the wall really that bad? It certainly could have been, and if so I would be disappointing in how it was handled when making the show, but I also think perhaps its a red herring, and the magic in the wall never had anything to do with keeping the Night King out of the south as was widely known, but to entrap him instead and lead to his eventual defeat. I am thinking the wall still has a purpose and is linked with Winterfell somehow.

It's just yet another failure of the show.

:mellow:

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There must always be a Stark in Winterfel.  They made a point of saying that several times.  Why?  Was the Stark commitment to the defense/governance of the north in some way linked to the brokered truce with the CotF and/or the spell that secured the wall?

Maybe Bran did break the spell of the wall but maybe he broke it when he and Rickon fled.

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13 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

There must always be a Stark in Winterfel.  They made a point of saying that several times.  Why?  Was the Stark commitment to the defense/governance of the north in some way linked to the brokered truce with the CotF and/or the spell that secured the wall?

Maybe Bran did break the spell of the wall but maybe he broke it when he and Rickon fled.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.... always reminds me of, "There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm." And hopefully there's more to it. :D

He didn't break anything until he was touched by the Night King. Fleeing with Rickon was long before that, and they parted at the Wall itself. 

But I do hope we get more of the Stark/WinterFELL back story.... and the crypts... in both books and show, even though time is short.

I need a bazillion spinoffs of this awesome source material.... I might need a 12-step. :blush:

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I don't know if there will ever be any explanation such as "Bran broke the magic when he went through the Wall".  I hope there is, but typically if it was the case that Bran did that the show's previously on would show Bran breaking the magic of the cave or it would be mentioned to remind everyone.  Maybe that is still yet to come in the S8 premiere.

This is one of the logic gaps that doesn't bother me as much either way.  I could totally buy that the magic was only inside the Wall of ice and once that was melted and no longer existed, the magic went along with it.  Not as good of an explanation as the Bran one, but I'm fine believing that a tricked out Viserion blowing blue flames could melt the stuffing out of the Wall and destroy the magic along with it.  

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15 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

There must always be a Stark in Winterfel.  They made a point of saying that several times.  Why?  Was the Stark commitment to the defense/governance of the north in some way linked to the brokered truce with the CotF and/or the spell that secured the wall?

Maybe Bran did break the spell of the wall but maybe he broke it when he and Rickon fled.

I don't have any answers to this, it's a good question...but, I agree with the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" idea, because the show makes a point to mention it in multiple seasons. And what's in the WF crypts? Something about that, lingers in my mind. The Starks are the blood of the First Men and they have their own form of magic and connection to nature (Old Gods, warging into animals) so it's very possible they were instrumental in the pact. Once Bran and Rickon fled, it was the first time WF wasn't held by a Stark and everything bad that could happen to their family did. Still so much to resolve and I just hope they find a way to do it in the final season.

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3 hours ago, fire&blood said:

I don't have any answers to this, it's a good question...but, I agree with the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" idea, because the show makes a point to mention it in multiple seasons. And what's in the WF crypts? Something about that, lingers in my mind. The Starks are the blood of the First Men and they have their own form of magic and connection to nature (Old Gods, warging into animals) so it's very possible they were instrumental in the pact. Once Bran and Rickon fled, it was the first time WF wasn't held by a Stark and everything bad that could happen to their family did. Still so much to resolve and I just hope they find a way to do it in the final season.

I think "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" will matter more in the books than the show.

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Go anywhere on Earth with hot springs and dig around them and earth is warm.  Winterfell has a hot spring. Although there is the tale of the heat coming from a dragon's fire, I suspect that was just a myth because a dragon would need feeding.  Dig under Winterfell and it doesn't get warm it gets cold.  The crypt is "always cold".  BtB built the first keep after the long night.  Why?  If they just defeated the NK and won dawn then why build a fortress?  A prison can look like a fortress too.  And as the circular forts that were built on the site evolved into the Winterfell castle the purpose and thus the construction could shift from keeping something in to keeping something out. 

Conjecture:  BtB built Winterfell to keep the NK's mojo bottled up.  A Stark would be kept on-site to secure it.  Starks left.  Mojo escaped. NK rises. Step 3, profit.

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15 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

Go anywhere on Earth with hot springs and dig around them and earth is warm.  Winterfell has a hot spring. Although there is the tale of the heat coming from a dragon's fire, I suspect that was just a myth because a dragon would need feeding.  Dig under Winterfell and it doesn't get warm it gets cold.  The crypt is "always cold".  BtB built the first keep after the long night.  Why?  If they just defeated the NK and won dawn then why build a fortress?  A prison can look like a fortress too.  And as the circular forts that were built on the site evolved into the Winterfell castle the purpose and thus the construction could shift from keeping something in to keeping something out. 

Conjecture:  BtB built Winterfell to keep the NK's mojo bottled up.  A Stark would be kept on-site to secure it.  Starks left.  Mojo escaped. NK rises. Step 3, profit.

Sorry, what's BtB stand for? It's too early in the morning for me :)

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18 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

Go anywhere on Earth with hot springs and dig around them and earth is warm.  Winterfell has a hot spring. Although there is the tale of the heat coming from a dragon's fire, I suspect that was just a myth because a dragon would need feeding.  Dig under Winterfell and it doesn't get warm it gets cold.  The crypt is "always cold".  BtB built the first keep after the long night.  Why?  If they just defeated the NK and won dawn then why build a fortress?  A prison can look like a fortress too.  And as the circular forts that were built on the site evolved into the Winterfell castle the purpose and thus the construction could shift from keeping something in to keeping something out. 

Conjecture:  BtB built Winterfell to keep the NK's mojo bottled up.  A Stark would be kept on-site to secure it.  Starks left.  Mojo escaped. NK rises. Step 3, profit.

That's actually a pretty interesting theory, do you have any more which backs this up? I like it.

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On 9/5/2017 at 4:09 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

...or the cold open of S8, is Bran realizing he broke the Wall... because he's watching the NK riding a dragon, taking down part of the Wall, and heading south at the end of S7. 

They made it a point of showing us how Bran broke the cave. 

They made point of Benjen talking about how the strong magic on the Wall does not allow the dead to pass. 

Just because no one has said it out loud yet, doesn't mean it didn't happen, because up until now, how would Bran know?

Could be, but with this show should we really expect what is laid out in front of us like that? So many twists and turns, it could be that simple, but at the same time I have to keep my mind open to other possibilities. The ancient magic in the wall, Winterfell and the mysteries within it, all the Bran's in previous history who had dealings with white walkers (Bran the builder, possibly Bran the Night's King, and now 3 eyed raven Bran), there has to be some sort of connection to all that, when you throw time travel into the mix, the possibilities are endless.

They did make a point of showing Bran breaking the cave, but at that time he was being mentored by bloodraven, who can see "past present and future" why did he not see this? Why was he taken by surprise when everything else he saw coming?

They did make a point of Benjen discussing how the wall does not allow the dead to pass, I agree, but the whole theory where the night king was just lying in wait north of the wall for Dany to bring her dragons opens up so many questions to me, the Night King must also be a greeneer then? Can he travel through time as well like the 3 eyed raven? If this was the case, it would make sense that not only is there a physical battle, but also a battle through time. 

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