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Season 8 Predictions?

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15 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The object of this "prophesy" isn't Dany producing a viable offspring; its the return of khan Drogo.  Does anyone think Drogo will return?

Not a prophesy.

You know how weird it is that this is the first time I am seeing someone point out this is about Drogo coming back from the dead and not Daeny having a baby? 

 

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Of course my perfect ending will be a happy one, but given that GRRM stated that the ending will be bittersweet i'll go with this: 

One of Dany or Jon will perish, or even both, Dany's baby will be the Heir and will be raised and trained to rule by Davos and Tyrion. Jaime will be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. 

The Night's Watch will be no more (without the Wall and the WW it won't be needed anymore).

Cersei will be offed by Arya, and Arya will leave to travel and see the World.

Gendry will be legitimised and will inherit Storm's End and continue the Baratheon line.

Sansa will be Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

Bran will have a hero's death in the fight against the Others (will be a great help in defeating them).

Samwell Tarly will be the ruler of Highgarden.

Sandor, Tormund and Brienne will also die heroically in the fight against the Others.

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I honestly think the show won't have the bittersweet ending, it will all be roses but with an extinct Tyrell family.

If there is a bittersweet ending, given GRRM's anti-war sentiments, it will be that the defeating of the WWs doesn't mean that war doesn't end. The wars, infighting between houses and people wanting the throne will continue as it always has. Maybe best explained in a book as opposed to 7 episodes of television.

But things that could/would/should happen:

Varys will survive, he always does.

Dany will (hopefully) die. But it'll be something heroic so that everyone will create memes about the awesomeness she displayed.

Tyrion will go back to the political scheming he enjoys, probably as hand of the king.

Sansa will pull an Elizabeth and rule but not marry.

Everyone else is up for death at this point.

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The books will culminate with Jon executing Dany. That they're going to shoot several endings to avoid spoilers leaking the ending makes me consider for the first time the show may actually do this.

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4 hours ago, MrJay said:

You know how weird it is that this is the first time I am seeing someone point out this is about Drogo coming back from the dead and not Daeny having a baby? 

Awww. :(
I posted something along those very lines 2 days ago.

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves"
(And the bit that was cut from the show: "When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child then he will return, and not before.")
It's worth noting that this wasn't related to the question "When/can I have children again", but was a response to Dany asking "When will I have Khal Drogo back as he once was?" aka. when would the man she loves return to her. Not being able to have children isn't the actual curse, it's an element of what needs to be achieved to break it, so that she will find love again.

Even if the show alters the curse (which they did by removing half of what Miri Maaz Duur said), and makes Dany's inability to have children the focal point of it, the requirements have already been fulfilled:
"The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" could be a metaphor for Dany's time in Essos ending, and her time in Westeros beginning.
The pyramids of Mereen collapsing, or the Wall coming crashing down can be interpreted as "mountains blowing in the wind like leaves", and the "sea went dry" when Dany took all the Dothraki with her when she left the Dothraki Sea.
Now her womb has quickened and she will bear a living child, and now she will find love again, except it won't be Khal Drogo, but Jon.

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3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Awww. :(
I posted something along those very lines 2 days ago.
 

 

Season 1: MMD says nothing about Dany's ability to bear heirs. As you say, in the show, "sun rising in the east blah blah" is about Drogo's return.

Season 7: Multiple characters are talking about MMD's prophecy that Dany may not bear children. Can't look up MMD's exact wording, as she says nothing like that back in season 1.

VERY confusing.

Anyhow, yes, season 8 Dany and Jon might end up living happily ever after, surrounded by their heirs and a pretty white fence made up of dragon bones. GRRM can work his bittersweet ending around that. Only thing I can't see happening is Cersei remaining on the throne.

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6 minutes ago, kimim said:

VERY confusing.

It's most likely a sloppy continuity error.

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21 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

It's most likely a sloppy continuity error.

I think they tried to retcon it back in season 2. 

My pet theory is they didn't think it was that inportant until Dance came out and Dany being fertile again became a thing.

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9 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think they tried to retcon it back in season 2. 

True, Dany did start speaking about how she couldn't have children already back in season 2, or rather how the dragons were the only children she would ever have. I'm not even annoyed by the missing/misinterpreted part of MMD's prophecy. Dany says she can't have children (because of reason X) and that's the narrative the show is pushing, and I'm fine with it, even if it's a continuity error.
It's quite easy for woman her age to know if she's barren or not as well, if you're the age of 18-22 and haven't bled a single time since your miscarriage, you know something is wrong.
 

Edited by MinscS2

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5 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I think they tried to retcon it back in season 2. 

My pet theory is they didn't think it was that inportant until Dance came out and Dany being fertile again became a thing.

It could also be a case of an unreliable narrator.  The Books certainly have them: Sansa's "unkiss"and the varying descriptions of Jayne Westerling. Dany would have been under a considerable amount of emotional stress at that point, having just lost her baby and her husband and much of her Khalisar.

Anyway, I still don't put much stock in this as a prophesy.  I think it was just a last bit of venom for the people who slaughtered her village. It may have also been a way for GRRM to foreshadow later events.

 On top of everything mentioned, MMD is a liar who is not above empty boasts. "You will not hear me scream." just before she dies screaming, for example.

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OP

I think they might be trying to mislead people with Jorah/Dany. Most of the second half of season 7 involved a lot Jorah seemingly acquiescing or even approving the budding relationship between Jon and Dany. Even to the point of the whole talk over Longclaw about kids. So its very much stressing that he is gracefully stepping aside and letting the better man come in. 

But, by the same token, this went hand in hand with them really pushing the relationship as this sweet and beautiful thing. Which in turn, is subverted at the end with the reveal that she is his Aunt. Making the relationship incest. Judging by Inside the Episode and the way it was shot and the whole "we have to tell him"; this is not going to end well. D&D even spelt this out emphatically "shes his aunt" and how what seemed so perfect and able to solve everything won't work out.

Which I think means they must have been trying to throw us off, by implying that this was the final nail in the coffin for Jorah getting with Daenerys. But it can't be if Jon/Dany isn't going to pan out. Which itself raises the possibility that, actually Dany is going to end up with the guy whos been by her side from the beginning. 

Why would this happen? Three scenarios:

1. Jorah full on confesses his love for Dany and she returns his affection:

In the show he actually hasn't done this. In season 7, there are a few moments, like at the beach where he's about to say something but cuts it short instead when Jon shows up. Plus when he learnt that Dany was going with Jon and the boat he did look a bit forlorn. So perhaps he decides to say how he actually feels and with all that's happening, end of the world, etc etc Dany does actually feel something and returns his love. A bit like the scene from A Storm of Swords only, it works out.

2. The Northern Lords/Vale/Riverlands makes their allegiance to Dany conditional on her marrying a Northern Lord

Its already been teased that the Northern Lords, Vale and presumably Riverlords will have a problem with the Mad Queens Daughter. Sansa is clearly going to take exception to this. They all objected to Jon going, especially Lyanna Mormont. So they don't like Dany and adamantly want a free North. Now, Jon marrying Dany is the perfect get out of dodge thing here. But, D&D have made it clear that this Aragon/Arwen thing that solves everything won't happen because incest. So if she can't marry a Stark, then surely they will insist on the next best compromise which is that Dany marry a good Northern Lord to reassure them that their interests will be looked after. Which is a very short list when you think about it. Dany already told Daario that she was fully prepared to marry somebody for duty and to secure the realm. If she has to marry a Northerner to win over three realms then; may as well be Jorah.

Which would be hilarious. Just think, who is most likely to be shouting this at Dany? Lyanna Mormont. Which means Dany can just drop the mike when she says she going to marry her cousin. :D 

3. The Incest Child

Okay hear me out on this next one. There was a lot of baby talk in season 7. There is very likely to be an incest baby inbound. However, they can't marry because of incest. The child will be a fatherless bastard because the secret has to be kept. This will cause big problems for Dany. Yes, she can legitimise bastards but this has risks and the very fact the father isn't known could lead people to suspect the truth that its Jon's child and that could in turn lead to the darker truth of the child being born of incest. Nobody, especially not the child, must know.  

So what Dany needs. :D 

- Is somebody with Northern blood to explain the childs features.

- Somebody willing to raise another mans child. (which would be hilarious after the sword conversation with Jon) 

- Somebody who can keep a secret.

- Somebody who she can convincingly turn around and say she had a relationship with. Some Northerner in her retinue who always by her side perhaps?

Now a lot of this third one depends on Jon and theres A LOT of variables to that. He might die facing the Night King in single combat. He might not know he had a son by Dany as she might conceal it from him. He might go along with the lie out of respect for Danys wishes. It would be an interesting parallel to Ned and himself and a way of bringing the story full circle.

BTW: Given how awesome the She Bears are it would be really great if Dany and Jorah had a daughter. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

I think they might be trying to mislead people with Jorah/Dany. Most of the second half of season 7 involved a lot Jorah seemingly acquiescing or even approving the budding relationship between Jon and Dany. Even to the point of the whole talk over Longclaw about kids. So its very much stressing that he is gracefully stepping aside and letting the better man come in. 

But, by the same token, this went hand in hand with them really pushing the relationship as this sweet and beautiful thing. Which in turn, is subverted at the end with the reveal that she is his Aunt. Making the relationship incest. Judging by Inside the Episode and the way it was shot and the whole "we have to tell him"; this is not going to end well. D&D even spelt this out emphatically "shes his aunt" and how what seemed so perfect and able to solve everything won't work out.

Which I think means they must have been trying to throw us off, by implying that this was the final nail in the coffin for Jorah getting with Daenerys. But it can't be if Jon/Dany isn't going to pan out. Which itself raises the possibility that, actually Dany is going to end up with the guy whos been by her side from the beginning. 

Why would this happen? Three scenarios:

1. Jorah full on confesses his love for Dany and she returns his affection:

In the show he actually hasn't done this. In season 7, there are a few moments, like at the beach where he's about to say something but cuts it short instead when Jon shows up. Plus when he learnt that Dany was going with Jon and the boat he did look a bit forlorn. So perhaps he decides to say how he actually feels and with all that's happening, end of the world, etc etc Dany does actually feel something and returns his love. A bit like the scene from A Storm of Swords only, it works out.

2. The Northern Lords/Vale/Riverlands makes their allegiance to Dany conditional on her marrying a Northern Lord

Its already been teased that the Northern Lords, Vale and presumably Riverlords will have a problem with the Mad Queens Daughter. Sansa is clearly going to take exception to this. They all objected to Jon going, especially Lyanna Mormont. So they don't like Dany and adamantly want a free North. Now, Jon marrying Dany is the perfect get out of dodge thing here. But, D&D have made it clear that this Aragon/Arwen thing that solves everything won't happen because incest. So if she can't marry a Stark, then surely they will insist on the next best compromise which is that Dany marry a good Northern Lord to reassure them that their interests will be looked after. Which is a very short list when you think about it. Dany already told Daario that she was fully prepared to marry somebody for duty and to secure the realm. If she has to marry a Northerner to win over three realms then; may as well be Jorah.

Which would be hilarious. Just think, who is most likely to be shouting this at Dany? Lyanna Mormont. Which means Dany can just drop the mike when she says she going to marry her cousin. :D 

3. The Incest Child

Okay hear me out on this next one. There was a lot of baby talk in season 7. There is very likely to be an incest baby inbound. However, they can't marry because of incest. The child will be a fatherless bastard because the secret has to be kept. This will cause big problems for Dany. Yes, she can legitimise bastards but this has risks and the very fact the father isn't known could lead people to suspect the truth that its Jon's child and that could in turn lead to the darker truth of the child being born of incest. Nobody, especially not the child, must know.  

So what Dany needs. :D 

- Is somebody with Northern blood to explain the childs features.

- Somebody willing to raise another mans child. (which would be hilarious after the sword conversation with Jon) 

- Somebody who can keep a secret.

- Somebody who she can convincingly turn around and say she had a relationship with. Some Northerner in her retinue who always by her side perhaps?

Now a lot of this third one depends on Jon and theres A LOT of variables to that. He might die facing the Night King in single combat. He might not know he had a son by Dany as she might conceal it from him. He might go along with the lie out of respect for Danys wishes. It would be an interesting parallel to Ned and himself and a way of bringing the story full circle.

BTW: Given how awesome the She Bears are it would be really great if Dany and Jorah had a daughter. 

 

I would buy the incest being a deal breaker for Dany and Jon if the whole show had not been systematically normalizing incest for 7 years and building multiple in universe reasons why the characters in the end won't care. 

- get the audience used to incest by exposing them to an even more incestou relationship? Check

- give daenerys absolutley no reason to care about incest give her family history? Check 

- include avunculate relationships in the stark family tree to get Jon used to the idea? Check

- give Jon a strong reason to marry any woman he inpregnates? Check 

- make it highly likely Daenerys is pregnant? Check

- establish how important marriage is to build alliances and create peace? Check

- establish that Jon and Dany getting married is the most logical political move for Westeros? Check

- make the characters fall in love before they find out they are related? Check 

- ensure the characters spend no time together as children to avoid the westermark effect? Check

If GRRM and D&D really wanted incest to be the deal breaker for this relationship then they have done a terrible job creating in universe reasons for that to be a deal breaker. 

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I would buy the incest being a deal breaker for Dany and Jon if the whole show had not been systematically normalizing incest for 7 years and building multiple in universe reasons why the characters in the end won't care. 

- get the audience used to incest by exposing them to an even more incestou relationship? Check

- give daenerys absolutley no reason to care about incest give her family history? Check 

- include avunculate relationships in the stark family tree to get Jon used to the idea? Check

- give Jon a strong reason to marry any woman he inpregnates? Check 

- make it highly likely Daenerys is pregnant? Check

- establish how important marriage is to build alliances and create peace? Check

- establish that Jon and Dany getting married is the most logical political move for Westeros? Check

- make the characters fall in love before they find out they are related? Check 

- ensure the characters spend no time together as children to avoid the westermark effect? Check

If GRRM and D&D really wanted incest to be the deal breaker for this relationship then they have done a terrible job creating in universe reasons for that to be a deal breaker. 

 

But isn't the point that it would be the perfect political alliance if it weren't for the incest? Dany gets to unite the realm and be alongside the man she loves. Aragon and Arwen. It's too perfect. GRRM has, I think subverted the "hidden royal lineage" trope. Instead of it being something great that brings people together, it creates chaos and breaks what should have been a good thing.

The show hasn't normalised incest. Craster. Joffrey. Targaryens generally. If you wanted to normalise incest you would play it down or avoid mentioning it. Indeed all the ills of the world can be traced to Cersei and Jamie's incest love.

Basically, they already spent a season falling in love. The incest reveal has to be something to tear them apart.

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6 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

But isn't the point that it would be the perfect political alliance if it weren't for the incest? Dany gets to unite the realm and be alongside the man she loves. Aragon and Arwen. It's too perfect. GRRM has, I think subverted the "hidden royal lineage" trope. Instead of it being something great that brings people together, it creates chaos and breaks what should have been a good thing.

Regarding the point of it, honestly I don't know if the point of it is their political alliance would be perfect but for incest. Political marriages are signed for political reasons often times irrespective of how the participants feel and irrespective of whether the relationship is incestous or not. If the political reasons are strong enough, the incest should not matter. Tons of examples both in universe and in our own world. 

If they really wanted to tell the story of this perfect political alliance being destroyed by incest, than they certainly went to great lengths to include an incredible amount of reasons why incest would not be the thing that blows up their political alliance. You could very well be correct. Jon could legitimately be disgusted by the whole thing. But, they certainly gave him a lot of reasons to in the end decide screw it i love her and what. 

6 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The show hasn't normalised incest. Craster. Joffrey. Targaryens generally. If you wanted to normalise incest you would play it down or avoid mentioning it. Indeed all the ills of the world can be traced to Cersei and Jamie's incest love.

i think its the opposite. if you don't mention it it remains taboo. by mentioning it a whole lot you normalize it. if you wanted to not normalize it you wouldn't be constantly exposed to it and you wouldn't make the family that Jon and Dany come from the family that loves to practice incest and considers it the most normal thing in the world and in fact a desirable thing. 

Also, your reading a value judgement into how the show portrayed Joffrey and connecting it to incest when i think the record is way more complicated than that because Joffrey is not the only example of incest we get in this world - once again normalizing it - nor Cersei and Jaime's being the source of all the ills in this world. 

Lets just look at all the positive things that have sprung from incest: 

- Daenerys and Jon Snow themselves are the product of incest. Dany's parents and Jon's dad were the product of brother/ sister incest and Jon's mom is the product of cousin/ cousin incest. They are the main two heroes of the story. 

- Gilly and baby Sam. One of the sweatest characters in the show. A product of incest. 

- Tyrion - product of cousin/ cousin relationship 

- Ned - product of cousin/ cousin relationship 

- Tommen and Myrcella too genuinely sweet and lovely children. Product of incest. 

So lots of good things came from incest in universe in addition to the bad. And while Jaime and Cersei's tryst in the tower certainly set things in motion plot wise, its interesting how the main in universe culprit of  the whole show is not Jaime and Cersei but Littlefinger. He is the one that gets blamed for the war of the five kings. 

So my point is that the show and books do not show incest to be an unambiguously bad thing or a clear moral failing that only negative things come from. Its grey like almost everything else in the world. 

6 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Basically, they already spent a season falling in love. The incest reveal has to be something to tear them apart.

it doesn't have to be anything. it could be something that tears them apart it could not be. it could be there to make us think it will tear them apart before all the reasons in universe why they wouldn't care begin to take effect and in the end incest makes it a true Targaryen restoration. 

I am not saying that your wrong and the incest won't tear them apart. It very well might. I am just saying if you wanted the incest to tear them apart, they have been telling the story in a very funny way. 

 

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I seem to recall there were people on these boards suggesting Jon could Marry Sansa, his half sister.  The relationship between an aunt and a nephew is just as close as half siblings.  As has been pointed, first cousins marrying isn't that much of a taboo in Westeros, at least among Noble families.  An Aunt and Nephew, particularly ones of the same age (Jon is a little older I think) shouldn't be a problem.  By Targaryan standards, this is nothing. 

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If it's some ruling together ending for Jon and Dany and their kids and a full on Targaryen restoration, I am very very meh on this type of ending. They change a lot, obviously. But I do believe them when they say they're going to get to the same places George outlined for them. This type of ending is not something I ever even considered reading his books. If it is to be, I at least hope there's more to it in George's book version.

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22 minutes ago, binhorde said:

If it's some ruling together ending for Jon and Dany and their kids and a full on Targaryen restoration, I am very very meh on this type of ending. They change a lot, obviously. But I do believe them when they say they're going to get to the same places George outlined for them. This type of ending is not something I ever even considered reading his books. If it is to be, I at least hope there's more to it in George's book version.

GRRM allegedly aims for a LotR-ending.
Aragorn (previously reluctant king, sounds familiar? :P ) and Arwen end up ruling happily for the rest of their lives.

As for the incest-speculation, I agree (unsurprisingly enough) with @jcmontea - The incest might very well drive them apart, but the story hasn't really pushed the narrative in this direction, and from a "logical" standpoint, the actual incest shouldn't drive them apart either. There is no Westermarck effect between them, (like there would be between Jon and Sansa) and avuncular marriages aren't taboo in Westeros in the first place, just unusual (probably due to cousins often being a better match age wise).
The actual incest seems more like a tool to make the audience uncomfortable with their romance, and to prevent it from being as happy and sweet as it otherwise would be, from a modern PoV, i.e. making their romance bittersweet instead of just being sweet.

The revelation that Jon is ahead of Dany in the line of succession, the fact that they're related in the first place, and the eventual identity crisis that both Jon and Dany might possibly end up having is a more likely source of tension between the two, but even then I'd consider it very strange (and even out of character) if they end up having a permanent breakup, especially if Dany became pregnant in S7E7.
 

Edited by MinscS2

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29 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I seem to recall there were people on these boards suggesting Jon could Marry Sansa, his half sister.  The relationship between an aunt and a nephew is just as close as half siblings.  As has been pointed, first cousins marrying isn't that much of a taboo in Westeros, at least among Noble families.  An Aunt and Nephew, particularly ones of the same age (Jon is a little older I think) shouldn't be a problem.  By Targaryan standards, this is nothing. 

Feels like the whole incest thing gets a bit overblown. Aside from possible reproductive issues it just doesn't seem like that big a deal. In real life the biggest taboo about incest is that it usually involves some type of abuse, but clearly that isn't the case with Jon & Dany. They are just two people that fell in love. Granted, aunt/nephew is not an ideal arrangement, but in the context of ASOIF, it shouldn't be a deal breaker either.

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15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

But isn't the point that it would be the perfect political alliance if it weren't for the incest? Dany gets to unite the realm and be alongside the man she loves. Aragon and Arwen. It's too perfect. GRRM has, I think subverted the "hidden royal lineage" trope. Instead of it being something great that brings people together, it creates chaos and breaks what should have been a good thing.

The show hasn't normalised incest. Craster. Joffrey. Targaryens generally. If you wanted to normalise incest you would play it down or avoid mentioning it. Indeed all the ills of the world can be traced to Cersei and Jamie's incest love.

Basically, they already spent a season falling in love. The incest reveal has to be something to tear them apart.

Yes, it would be perfect, but for the incest. Maybe that's how both the novels and the show will magic away how saccharine this relationship is, if it indeed ends the show/novels. Minus incest, it's way more perfect than the Aragorn-Arwen thing, which was haunted by Arwen's new and unwelcome mortality. Tolkien said that LotR was about death, and he underlines that in their story.

btw the show came closest to normalizing incest in Myrcella's speech to Jaime, right before she died.

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1 hour ago, kimim said:

Yes, it would be perfect, but for the incest. Maybe that's how both the novels and the show will magic away how saccharine this relationship is, if it indeed ends the show/novels. Minus incest, it's way more perfect than the Aragorn-Arwen thing, which was haunted by Arwen's new and unwelcome mortality. Tolkien said that LotR was about death, and he underlines that in their story.

btw the show came closest to normalizing incest in Myrcella's speech to Jaime, right before she died.

 

But doesn't GRRM talk a lot about people choosing their matches for love bringing doom and death? For example in Arrianes POV she says of Dany that young girls always prefer dashing rogues to good boys who do their duty. This is in reference to Quentyn and her rebutting him could ruin her plans to win House Martel.

Now, in books you could argue Jon Snow IS one of the good boys who does his duty but Iam not remotely convinced; I think GRRM intended him to be an "I will not bow before some ranger from the North" character. He's Aragon and especially on the show he's very much an idealised hero. He is the guy you want to be.

So Dany loving Jon could bring doom and death for future generations. Marrying for love and incest has arguably caused the downfall of House targaryen and killed millions. Surely the bittersweet thing is for Dany to deny her heart for the sake of others? 

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