Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Cron

How Much Wildfire Is Left, And How Should It Be Used Against The Army Of The Dead??

Recommended Posts

I think there's still a LOT of wildfire in King's Landing, and it will eventually be used against the Army of the Dead.

In fact, I can't even begin to imagine why Tyrion hasn't already mentioned it to Dany, and why he didn't ask about it (so far as we know) when they were recently in King's Landing.

My understanding is that there was a LOT, enough to basically blow up all of King's Landing, so I believe it has NOT all been used up (at the Battle of Blackwater and the Green Trial)

So...how much do you think is left, why didn't Tyrion ask about it, and how should it be used in battle against the Army of the Dead??

Personally, I could see casks of it being loaded into catapults and shot at the approaching undead.  My understanding is that it is very volatile (sort of like nitroglycerine, and/or napalm), and upon impact the cask would explode, throw the stuff all over the place, still burning, and do massive damage to the undead army.

Your thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Cron said:

I think there's still a LOT of wildfire in King's Landing, and it will eventually be used against the Army of the Dead.

In fact, I can't even begin to imagine why Tyrion hasn't already mentioned it to Dany, and why he didn't ask about it (so far as we know) when they were recently in King's Landing.

My understanding is that there was a LOT, enough to basically blow up all of King's Landing, so I believe it has NOT all been used up (at the Battle of Blackwater and the Green Trial)

So...how much do you think is left, why didn't Tyrion ask about it, and how should it be used in battle against the Army of the Dead??

Personally, I could see casks of it being loaded into catapults and shot at the approaching undead.  My understanding is that it is very volatile (sort of like nitroglycerine, and/or napalm), and upon impact the cask would explode, throw the stuff all over the place, still burning, and do massive damage to the undead army.

Your thoughts?

Oh, and frankly, I'm also wondering if Tyrion could rig up a wildfire flame thrower.

But that might be pushing it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the rumours seem to indicate that there is still wildfire in KL, however Cersei must have used a considerable amount already when she blew up the Sept, so I can't be certain how much is left.

Now, of course we don't know what happened between Cersei and Tyrion off screen but the fact that it was left "off screen" means that whatever it was the show runners want it to be surprise.  It is not inconceivable that he may have given her something, even some sort of promise for wildfire, although I think it is unlikely or at least that that scene involved wildfire in any way.

Approaching the pyromancers would have been his best bet but time was limited and the pyromancers are under Cersei's rule and he is pretty much "persona non grata" in KL at the moment.  Still he may have sent out someone in an errand...   Possibly far fetched but I thought it was a bit odd that Bronn left with Pod (both Tyrion's pals) with the lame excuse of going out for a drink.

One explanation that has been provided is that Lena and Jerome don't get on in real life and that they have requested not to do a scene together.  Okay, fair enough.  Still Pod and Bronn were not a central part to the negotiations.  Jerome could simply not have been there and I don't think anyone would be starting great threads in here regarding his absence from that scene lol  I reckon they were on a mission for Tyrion and visiting the pyromancers with a great bag of gold could have been it although I am probably barking at the wrong tree here.,,

Still, the main problem I can see is that yes that substance is extremely volatile so transporting it to the Wall would be some feat!  It is more likely than not that it would blew up half the realm in the process and Tyrion is acting very cautious of late.  Granted he did use it in the Blackwater but it was either that or leave it to Cersei/Joffrey to do so with far less restraint lol and he didn't need it to be transported very far then...

Also, we do not know for a fact if WWs are vulnerable to wildfire or not and I presume neither does Tyrion, the pyromancers or anyone since hardly anyone believed in WWs until very recently.  

The idea of the flame thrower is very cool and wicked ;)  Tyrion, to me, has been acting a bit "out of character" most of the season and I do hope that he has just been keeping his cards very close to his chest and that he has something out of his sleeve yet to be revealed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

The idea of the flame thrower is very cool and wicked ;)  Tyrion, to me, has been acting a bit "out of character" most of the season and I do hope that he has just been keeping his cards very close to his chest and that he has something out of his sleeve yet to be revealed...

I'd like to see the Tyrion, who wants a sweet life after all and is now somehow planning his future with women and booze in his own castle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

I'd like to see the Tyrion, who wants a sweet life after all and is now somehow planning his future with women and booze in his own castle.

I strongly suspect he will get that in the end but in the mean time he has to earn it lol ;) in terms of staying alive more than anything lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cersei holds the key to wildfire production, but she doesn't trust Tyrion, Jon or Daenerys and only cares about protecting herself.

I suspect that any wildfire that still exists in King's Landing or any that Cersei continues to have produced in secret will be reserved for some kind of Mad Queen moment shortly before her death.

This may serve a dual purpose of making the battles against the dead a bit more exciting. Wildfire almost seems like it would be too potent, given how vulnerable wights are to fire. It could completely decimate the Night King's army in seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would Cersei share her greatest weapon with her enemyes? Maybe she's planning to use it later, against whoever will survive fight with NK, and will come to get her throne. Seems more likely that she will blaze away Red Keep, same as how Mad King wanted to do this. Though this time either there will be no Jaime there to stop her, or he will kill her, but will be too late to stop wildfire. Based on Dany's vision it looked like Red Keep was destroyed by something major, like dragonfire or wildfire explosion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Khorkalba said:

Cersei holds the key to wildfire production, but she doesn't trust Tyrion, Jon or Daenerys and only cares about protecting herself.

I suspect that any wildfire that still exists in King's Landing or any that Cersei continues to have produced in secret will be reserved for some kind of Mad Queen moment shortly before her death.

This may serve a dual purpose of making the battles against the dead a bit more exciting. Wildfire almost seems like it would be too potent, given how vulnerable wights are to fire. It could completely decimate the Night King's army in seconds.

Cersei had full control of it and the realm, although in name at the time, when Tyrion persuaded the pyromancers to make it for him lol  I think the issue here is safe transportation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Why would Cersei share her greatest weapon with her enemyes? Maybe she's planning to use it later, against whoever will survive fight with NK, and will come to get her throne. Seems more likely that she will blaze away Red Keep, same as how Mad King wanted to do this. Though this time either there will be no Jaime there to stop her, or he will kill her but will be to late to stop wildfire. Based on Dany's vision it looked like Red Keep was destroyed by something major, like dragonfire or wildfire explosion.

She would not indeed and I think someone like Tyrion (if he indeed mentioned that in whatever pact he made with her) would not honour whatever the pact was either.   "It Takes One to Know One" lol If Tyrion wants wildfire he would obtain it by different means but I think he would be right to be very cautions with its transportation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Cron said:

I think there's still a LOT of wildfire in King's Landing, and it will eventually be used against the Army of the Dead.

In fact, I can't even begin to imagine why Tyrion hasn't already mentioned it to Dany, and why he didn't ask about it (so far as we know) when they were recently in King's Landing.

My understanding is that there was a LOT, enough to basically blow up all of King's Landing, so I believe it has NOT all been used up (at the Battle of Blackwater and the Green Trial)

So...how much do you think is left, why didn't Tyrion ask about it, and how should it be used in battle against the Army of the Dead??

Personally, I could see casks of it being loaded into catapults and shot at the approaching undead.  My understanding is that it is very volatile (sort of like nitroglycerine, and/or napalm), and upon impact the cask would explode, throw the stuff all over the place, still burning, and do massive damage to the undead army.

Your thoughts?

During the dragon pit negotiations, the Jon bending the knee part too up most of the time. So there wasn't any time to bring up the wildfire. And we still don't know how Tyrion convinced Cersei to agree to a truce. He may or may not have mentioned the wildfire then. But I don't think Cersei will give it up because I think she plans to use it for her own personal defense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

During the dragon pit negotiations, the Jon bending the knee part too up most of the time. So there wasn't any time to bring up the wildfire. And we still don't know how Tyrion convinced Cersei to agree to a truce. He may or may not have mentioned the wildfire then. But I don't think Cersei will give it up because I think she plans to use it for her own personal defense.

Very interesting.

Yeah, I had wondered about the possibility that the wildfire was discussed in secret beteween Tyrion and Cersei.

I wonder what she might have wanted from him in return to give it up???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cron said:

Very interesting.

Yeah, I had wondered about the possibility that the wildfire was discussed in secret beteween Tyrion and Cersei.

I wonder what she might have wanted from him in return to give it up???

I think there's a reason they brought up tommen and myrcella in the Cersei-tyrion discussion. Tyrion was responsible for having myrcella go to dorne. And cersei maintained that it was tywin's death that made the Lannisters vulnerable. Cersei was implying  that the tyrells couldn't have gained influence had tywin been alive, and she wouldn't have been imprisoned, etc. Thus, she made Tyrion feel guilty about tommen's suicide.

I think she got Tyrion to agree to betray Dany on some level, and he agreed, either out of guilt, and/or in exchange for wildfire. Maybe that's why tyrion gave that disapproving look.

My guess would be she asked him to spy on Dany for her, report back the vulnerabilities of the dragons. The dothraki and the unsullied would stay loyal to Dany no matter what. She could've asked Tyrion to smother Dany in her sleep, but I'm not Tyrion would agree to that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Cersei had full control of it and the realm, although in name at the time, when Tyrion persuaded the pyromancers to make it for him lol  I think the issue here is safe transportation...

Tyrion doesn't have that kind of influence anymore, and there's no way he'd manage to get the wildfire to the docks without Cersei knowing even if he could somehow bribe the pyromancers. He couldn't even smuggle himself into the city successfully without Cersei knowing.

I just can't see any plausible scenario where Tyrion gains access to wildfire before Cersei is defeated and killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I think there's a reason they brought up tommen and myrcella in the Cersei-tyrion discussion. Tyrion was responsible for having myrcella go to dorne. And cersei maintained that it was tywin's death that made the Lannisters vulnerable. Cersei was implying  that the tyrells couldn't have gained influence had tywin been alive, and she wouldn't have been imprisoned, etc. Thus, she made Tyrion feel guilty about tommen's suicide.

Hmmm.  Well, perhaps Cersei was trying to manipulate Tyrion by making him feel guilty about that stuff, but of course most of it was Cersei's fault, since she was the one who empowered and armed the Faith Militant.

I can understand why Tyrion would feel guilty about Myrcella, but what did Tyrion do that he might even arguably led ot the death of Tommen?  Far as I recall, that stuff all happened after Tyrion was gone from King's Landing.  I realize you are not blaming Tyrion (I think), and just saying what you think Cersei was trying to do to Tyrion, but why would he believe the part about Tommen?

38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I think she got Tyrion to agree to betray Dany on some level, and he agreed, either out of guilt, and/or in exchange for wildfire. Maybe that's why tyrion gave that disapproving look.

Yikes!  Oh, I hope Tyrion is not going to betray Dany.   I understand you might be right, and are just saying what you think might happen, but I will be really disappointed if that is the direction they go in, since it would make pretty much NO sense to me.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though.

38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

My guess would be she asked him to spy on Dany for her, report back the vulnerabilities of the dragons. The dothraki and the unsullied would stay loyal to Dany no matter what. She could've asked Tyrion to smother Dany in her sleep, but I'm not Tyrion would agree to that.

Hmm.  Spying and/or smothering Dany in he sleep?  I understand you're just speculating, but I really hope that is not going to happen.

How would you feel about Tyrion doing those things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Cron said:

Hmmm.  Well, perhaps Cersei was trying to manipulate Tyrion by making him feel guilty about that stuff, but of course most of it was Cersei's fault, since she was the one who empowered and armed the Faith Militant.

I can understand why Tyrion would feel guilty about Myrcella, but what did Tyrion do that he might even arguably led ot the death of Tommen?  Far as I recall, that stuff all happened after Tyrion was gone from King's Landing.  I realize you are not blaming Tyrion (I think), and just saying what you think Cersei was trying to do to Tyrion, but why would he believe the part about Tommen?

Yeah, I'm not blaming Tyrion at all. It was all Cersei's fault. 

But I think cersei herself somehow believes that Tyrion was responsible for her children's deaths. Dealing with the loss of a child is not easy, and blaming Tyrion is what keeps her functioning I think. As for Tyrion, I'm sure he feels some guilt about killing his own father. And if Cersei made the argument that none of this would have happened if tywin were alive, I think it would make Tyrion feel some guilt about tommen too. Jaime had set him free, Tyrion did not have to kill tywin. Again, I'm not blaming Tyrion for tommen's death, just saying that Tyrion's conscience may make him feel he bears some responsibility towards the downfall of the Lannister family. And he was indeed extremely attached to tommen and myrcella.

20 minutes ago, Cron said:

Yikes!  Oh, I hope Tyrion is not going to betray Dany.   I understand you might be right, and are just saying what you think might happen, but I will be really disappointed if that is the direction they go in, since it would make pretty much NO sense to me.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though.

The show has discussed tyrion's loyalties multiple times, which is what makes me think he might betray Dany. He has been struggling with decisions since his family was his opponent. And guilt can make a person do things that are completely out of character. Maybe he feels the need to protect this niece/nephew when couldn't protect the others.

 

27 minutes ago, Cron said:

Hmm.  Spying and/or smothering Dany in he sleep?  I understand you're just speculating, but I really hope that is not going to happen.

How would you feel about Tyrion doing those things?

Honestly, I don't want to see Tyrion do any of that either. I want to see him stick to the side he choose. He thinks Dany can make the world a better place, so he really, really shouldn't be betraying her. In case he does, I would consider him extremely weak. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion used a lot at the Battle of Blackwater Bay.  Cersi asks something along the lines of "if the rumors are true" referring to the Wildfire buried throughout the City.  This implies she hasn't had it produced since the Blackwater Bay and may/or may not have had help from the Pyromancers in making more.  But, I'd lean towards not.

The reality is that it's a one trick pony and there's no guarantee the NK doesn't have the power to put it out.  While better than nothing it's not as renewable nor versatile (in terms of where and when it can be deployed) as Dragon fire.

However, given the plot armor she's had since the Sept blew up I'm sure D&D will make it work out in her favor until the last or 2nd to last episode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Yeah, I'm not blaming Tyrion at all. It was all Cersei's fault. 

The part with the Faith Militant.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

But I think cersei herself somehow believes that Tyrion was responsible for her children's deaths. Dealing with the loss of a child is not easy, and blaming Tyrion is what keeps her functioning I think. As for Tyrion, I'm sure he feels some guilt about killing his own father. And if Cersei made the argument that none of this would have happened if tywin were alive, I think it would make Tyrion feel some guilt about tommen too. Jaime had set him free, Tyrion did not have to kill tywin. Again, I'm not blaming Tyrion for tommen's death, just saying that Tyrion's conscience may make him feel he bears some responsibility towards the downfall of the Lannister family. And he was indeed extremely attached to tommen and myrcella.

Oh, okay.  You're saying that Cersei believes that in the chain of events, Tyrion killed Tywin, and so Cersei blames Tyrion for everything after that, cuz she believes if Tywin had not died he would have kept the Lannisters on top.

I understand you're just saying what you think Cersei thinks, but of course that's warped beyond belief.  She is blaming Tyrion for stuff she herself did, and that Tyrion wasn't even around to have a say in, b/c of what she and Tywin did to Tyrion.

Also, of course, such "causal chain" reasoning can just go back and back and back indefinitely. Hey, maybe it's actually all Tywin's fault, cuz of what he did to Tyrion.  Or maybe it was one out of hundreds of other events that led to Myrcella and Tommen dying, any one of which could have prevented those deaths if they had not happened.  Who knows, if Joffrey hadn't had Ned killed, Tommen and Myrcella might well be alive.  Although the "butterfly effect" is real, I think at some point we have to say some events are too remote from others to make solid connections.  

Plus, of course, I'm not surprised Cersei blames anyone and everyone but herself.  I've known people in the "real world" who are VERY quick to blame other people, even for things which they CLEARLY are directly and solely responsible for themselves.  Such people, in fact, are not uncommon at all, i believe.

(Once again, though, I understand you are just saying what Cersei thinks, though, not what you think)

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

The show has discussed tyrion's loyalties multiple times, which is what makes me think he might betray Dany. He has been struggling with decisions since his family was his opponent. And guilt can make a person do things that are completely out of character. Maybe he feels the need to protect this niece/nephew when couldn't protect the others.

Ah. You believe the fact that the issue of Tyrion's loyalty keeps coming up may mean it is foreshadowing that it could become a real problem?  Could be.

I wonder if Tyrion does feel guilt about killing Tywin, though.  If he had it to do over, would he?  I think he would, but maybe he does feel some guilt about the impact on the rest of the Lannisters, that could be.  I think if Tyrion was an only child, though, he would not feel an ounce of guilt about killing Tywin, though.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

 

Honestly, I don't want to see Tyrion do any of that either. I want to see him stick to the side he choose. He thinks Dany can make the world a better place, so he really, really shouldn't be betraying her. In case he does, I would consider him extremely weak. 

Yeah, I agree.  Guess we'll just have to cross our fingers and hope it doesn't come to that.  I think it would be radically inconsistent with Tyrion's character.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Khorkalba said:

Cersei holds the key to wildfire production, but she doesn't trust Tyrion, Jon or Daenerys and only cares about protecting herself.

I suspect that any wildfire that still exists in King's Landing or any that Cersei continues to have produced in secret will be reserved for some kind of Mad Queen moment shortly before her death.

This may serve a dual purpose of making the battles against the dead a bit more exciting. Wildfire almost seems like it would be too potent, given how vulnerable wights are to fire. It could completely decimate the Night King's army in seconds.

Yes, too many reasons why using wildfire again becomes very complicated so I guess it is probably unlikely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

but I thought it was a bit odd that Bronn left with Pod (both Tyrion's pals) with the lame excuse of going out for a drink

That's just 'cause Jerome Flynn (Bronn) and Lena Headey (Cersei) hate each other's guts and simply will not do a scene together :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×