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Kingslayer96

Roberts rebellion and the lie

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It's confirmed that Lyanna willingly left with rhaegar and they got married

so why didn't they speak up about this? Why didn't rhaegar and/or lyanna say it wasn't a kidnapping and rape?

and do you think this would've prevented the war? Or do you think the rebellion would've eventually happened anyway and the mad king asking for ned and Roberts heads was just the last straw with his craziness?

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I should think there would at least have been a serious reaction from Dorne had it been known that Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia annulled.

And the broken betrothal is still something that is likely to cause friction. Rickard and Brandon might still have felt they had cause to confront Rhaegar and Aerys over it, which in turn could easily have led to him killing them brutally and demanding the heads of Robert and Ned.

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The real question to me is whose lie was Robert's Rebellion built on? The War for the Five kings was built on Littlefinger's lie who benefited the most from the war. Is there a similar figure for Robert's Rebellion? 

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Yeah I totally disagree with Bran stating in episode 7 that Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie.  If he said it was based on a misconception that would be more accurate but still wrong.  A lie is someone knowingly covering up the truth and for all we can tell, Robert and the whole Stark family genuinely felt Lyanna had been abducted.  But that was not the only cause of the rebellion, as even though Lyanna willing went along with Rhaegar, they were still going to piss some people off regardless like a previous poster said.

I think in trying to make us feel empathy for Lyanna and Rhaegar (doomed lovers and all) they actually made them look selfish and totally irresponsible.  I get that two people madly in love get pretty self absorbed with each other but to not clear things up about a kidnapping??  There is no excuse for that.

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Well the rebellion was going to happen regardless, right? Robert's Rebellion started before the Rhaegar and Lyanna thing. It started because of the execution of Rickard Stark if memory serves.
But I hope they do address why Lyanna never spoke out about it. I also want them to address (or I missed it) why she left Robert for Rhaegar. I know the Robert we see on TV is this fat drunk, but that wasn't how he used to be. What changed between them? Why didn't they (R and L) clear up the kidnapping that didn't happen? There are so many things that I wish they would explain, but I doubt the show will. I hope the books will though.

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13 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Well the rebellion was going to happen regardless, right? Robert's Rebellion started before the Rhaegar and Lyanna thing. It started because of the execution of Rickard Stark if memory serves.

Rickard and Brandon visited KL because of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

But I think a rebellion would have happened anyway due to the broken betrothal and Dorne would have got involved due to the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia.

Edited to add: but things may have gone differently had people known the truth.

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10 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Rickard and Brandon visited KL because of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

But I think a rebellion would have happened anyway due to the broken betrothal and Dorne would have got involved due to the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia.

Edited to add: but things may have gone differently had people known the truth.

Ahhhh OK, thank you for the clarification on that. I am fuzzy with the history. So yeah, it may have or may not have. It would be interesting to see the show/books dive into that a bit more and flush it out, explain things a bit.

I could see Robert going crazy still about it all, since he seems pretty obsessed with her and Dorne I don't think would take it lightly. They value women differently than everyone else in the show does so I think they they might have been dragged into it.

Who knows though.

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47 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Well the rebellion was going to happen regardless, right? Robert's Rebellion started before the Rhaegar and Lyanna thing. It started because of the execution of Rickard Stark if memory serves.
But I hope they do address why Lyanna never spoke out about it. I also want them to address (or I missed it) why she left Robert for Rhaegar. I know the Robert we see on TV is this fat drunk, but that wasn't how he used to be. What changed between them? Why didn't they (R and L) clear up the kidnapping that didn't happen? There are so many things that I wish they would explain, but I doubt the show will. I hope the books will though.

Robert was a whoring drinker in his youth as well. I believe he sired a bastard when he was living in the Vale, which Lyanna knew about. She wasn't thrilled about it.

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1 hour ago, UnViserion said:

Robert was a whoring drinker in his youth as well. I believe he sired a bastard when he was living in the Vale, which Lyanna knew about. She wasn't thrilled about it.

Very good point. But wasn't she kinda (I guess not really) doing the same? Running off with a soon to be married man when she was already soon to be married? Obviously it's not exactly the same but still. 

Not arguing with you though, just playing Devil's Advocate. 

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1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

Ahhhh OK, thank you for the clarification on that. I am fuzzy with the history. So yeah, it may have or may not have. It would be interesting to see the show/books dive into that a bit more and flush it out, explain things a bit.

I could see Robert going crazy still about it all, since he seems pretty obsessed with her and Dorne I don't think would take it lightly. They value women differently than everyone else in the show does so I think they they might have been dragged into it.

Who knows though.

Robert loved war and battles just as much in his youth, and he was just as fiery then too.  So yeah, even if Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him via her own free will I cannot see him taking it lying down.

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1 hour ago, UnViserion said:

Robert was a whoring drinker in his youth as well. I believe he sired a bastard when he was living in the Vale, which Lyanna knew about. She wasn't thrilled about it.

Yup. Actually she was mentioned in the book, cant remember if Littlefinger and Sansa met her, or someone else.. . Lyanna wasnt "in love" with Robert B. She was willing to do her duty for the house by marrying him. To Robert B was in love with Lyanna, he couldnt shake his old habits. It was bound to happen anyways, when she met someone she was madly in love with, and who loved her back.

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20 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Very good point. But wasn't she kinda (I guess not really) doing the same? Running off with a soon to be married man when she was already soon to be married? Obviously it's not exactly the same but still. 

Not arguing with you though, just playing Devil's Advocate. 

i would say its a bit ironic that she was concerned about Robert's faithfulness only to become "the other woman" herself. Would Robert have managed to stay true to Lyanna once they were married? Who knows, probably not. But he never got that chance.  

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The lie is Ned lying about Jon's parentage and saving him from death. The Baratheon rule which followed the rebellion benefited from lack of suitable candidates. 

Bran for all we know, do not have the full picture regarding the rebellion. He just saw the wedding and the birth. 

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9 minutes ago, IceIceBaby said:

The lie is Ned lying about Jon's parentage and saving him from death. The Baratheon rule which followed the rebellion benefited from lack of suitable candidates. 

Bran for all we know, do not have the full picture regarding the rebellion. He just saw the wedding and the birth. 

No, the Starks all know that Brandon Stark went to King's Landing after learning Rhaegar abducted his sister Lyanna, and was imprisoned. Aerys then summoned Rickard Stark to King's Landing, and killed both Rickard and Brandon, and then demanded the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon from Jon Arryn. In response to Aerys's demand, Jon Arryn called his banners, Robert called his banners, Ned called his banners, Ned and Jon married Catelyn and Lysa Tully, Hoster Tully called his banners.

Sure, Bran probably doesn't have all the fine details, but he, generally speaking, knows what happened. As do the rest of the Starks. Except Rickon, because he wouldn't have been old enough.

 

Being generous to the show, it could be that the lie Bran was referring to was "Rhaegar Abducted Lyanna" that Brandon Stark heard and reacted to.

But, however the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship actually happened, it would've triggered a shitstorm no matter what. And Rhaegar was trying to figure out how to ease Aerys out into retirement, and Aerys was suspicious of Rhaegar, so there'd've still have been a shitstorm there.

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First, Rhaegar and Lyanna's happy little lovefest killed Rickard and Brandon.  Still, they didn't speak out.  Then it killed thousands more in battle. Still they didn't speak out.  Then, it killed Elia and 2 children.  Still, not a peep from them.  Then it killed Rhaegar himself.  Then Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower.  Countless others.

I'm calling BS on the lovefest.  We're supposed to believe they they both allowed their families to be brutally slaughtered and all of Westeros plunged into war to end the Targ legacy... to save a Targ heir who would have been the lawful heir anyway?

Well, I don't believe it.

We had enough clues in the finale that Bran doesn't see all.  Sam has to fill him in.  Could the NK be manipulating his visions?  I don't know but the bottom line is that I don't believe in the fairytale.  GRRM isn't rewriting a Disney movie here.

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8 hours ago, jcmontea said:

The real question to me is whose lie was Robert's Rebellion built on? The War for the Five kings was built on Littlefinger's lie who benefited the most from the war. Is there a similar figure for Robert's Rebellion? 

Littlefinger lied the Starks and Lannisters into war. But the bigger war was about Joffrey not being Robert's son. That wasn't a lie. 

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8 hours ago, House Rootbreaker said:

 

54 minutes ago, IceIceBaby said:

The lie is Ned lying about Jon's parentage and saving him from death. The Baratheon rule which followed the rebellion benefited from lack of suitable candidates.

 

What? First of all, that came at the end of the war.

Secondly, you wouldn't need a war to kill Jon. If Ned hadn't lied, Robert woulda had Jon killed, easy-peasy.

Thirdly, there were suitable candidates anyway: Dany and her brother. 

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40 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Except Rickon, because he wouldn't have been old enough

You mean except Rickon because he didn't actually exist. Why else would his family never talk about him? 

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45 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Being generous to the show, it could be that the lie Bran was referring to was "Rhaegar Abducted Lyanna" that Brandon Stark heard and reacted to

It doesn't require much generosity. You can say a war would've happened anyway, but that would be a different war. Bran is talking about the war which sprang from the mistaken assumption that Lyanna had been abducted, which clearly is what actually happened. Though there were intervening events and other causes at play. 

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