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Sansa's Role In The War For The Dawn?


AEJON TARGARYEN

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“When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me.” A Storm Of Swords

What role will Sansa play in The War For The Dawn, The Great War? Any theories? ^_^

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Something instinctually tells me to expect more from Sansa's character than just handing out food to the hungry. It might be something she does because she is inherently good, but I feel that as she continues to grow from her experiences, she will be able to assume a role of greater power. A lot of people seem to underestimate her. Mainly because she is kind and still wholesome. But viewing her kindness as weakness will end up being a huge mistake for those who seek to take  advantage of her as the story continues to unfold.

Best case scenario, she becomes the warden of a large swath of land and as a result, all of the people who inhabit the area. Worst case, she dies tragically trying to do the right thing.

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Earning leadership is a big deal in the series with lots of characters.  More specifically, I see a strong possibility of brokering a peace between the Mountain Clans and the rest of the Vale.  Repeatedly the clans are mentioned as still hovering around post-Blackwater.  It appears that it's mainly the Stone Crows doing the raiding in the Riverlands, who are no friends of the Black Ears and Burned Men.  She knows some of the leaders from her marriage to Tyrion:  Timett and Chella.  The clans are considered the Free Folk of the Vale and they know how to survive in tough conditions.  They have new steel and formal battle experience from their time in the Wot5K.  If she could get them to give up raiding and get the Vale lords to allow them to assimilate, you'd have two groups of people that can help each other survive in Winter.  It's the same theme we get with what Jon, Val, and Tormund are trying to accomplish in the North.    

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24 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Earning leadership is a big deal in the series with lots of characters.  More specifically, I see a strong possibility of brokering a peace between the Mountain Clans and the rest of the Vale.  Repeatedly the clans are mentioned as still hovering around post-Blackwater.  It appears that it's mainly the Stone Crows doing the raiding in the Riverlands, who are no friends of the Black Ears and Burned Men.  She knows some of the leaders from her marriage to Tyrion:  Timett and Chella.  The clans are considered the Free Folk of the Vale and they know how to survive in tough conditions.  They have new steel and formal battle experience from their time in the Wot5K.  If she could get them to give up raiding and get the Vale lords to allow them to assimilate, you'd have two groups of people that can help each other survive in Winter.  It's the same theme we get with what Jon, Val, and Tormund are trying to accomplish in the North.    

Gotta hand it to you I bet I've seen this sentiment offered in 20 different ways, but yours is unsentimental and actually something HUGE Sansa can do without having to marry or bear children.    Kudos.   

Because I have such a nice and well described role for Sansa now I will throw in that perhaps The Vale could become a sort of sanctuary when the war comes.  Perhaps humanity could be safe in such a place?   

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28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Because I have such a nice and well described role for Sansa now I will throw in that perhaps The Vale could become a sort of sanctuary when the war comes.  Perhaps humanity could be safe in such a place?   

My opinion when it comes to the fight between the living vs the others is that the best chance for humanity will be found on the field of battle. Inhabitants of a well fortified castle are somewhat safe so long as they have food and water. But the dead don't eat, they don't get tired, and time isn't a factor for them. A siege carried out by the Others and their undead horde can last indefinitely.

This is why I don't believe Sansa is going to just sit around, hand out food, and share her knowledge of advanced sewing techniques she learned in her youth from Septa Mordane. Sansa might not be out swinging a sword, nope we cannot expect that from her. I do think that she will somehow be groomed for command though. She will guide the people of the Vale (I'm guessing she remains here) and she will inspire them to follow her through the Long Night that approaches.

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18 minutes ago, Romaine3 said:

My opinion when it comes to the fight between the living vs the others is that the best chance for humanity will be found on the field of battle. Inhabitants of a well fortified castle are somewhat safe so long as they have food and water. But the dead don't eat, they don't get tired, and time isn't a factor for them. A siege carried out by the Others and their undead horde can last indefinitely.

This is why I don't believe Sansa is going to just sit around, hand out food, and share her knowledge of advanced sewing techniques she learned in her youth from Septa Mordane. Sansa might not be out swinging a sword, nope we cannot expect that from her. I do think that she will somehow be groomed for command though. She will guide the people of the Vale (I'm guessing she remains here) and she will inspire them to follow her through the Long Night that approaches.

You know this bolded bit recalls Sansa leading in song during the Battle of the Blackwater.  Cersei mocked her, but the women (and The Hound) seemed to take comfort in this simple and very sweet moment.  

I'm not sure about command, but perhaps leadership?  She is with Little Finger and he isn't much of a commander is he?  I think she will have to take his lessons and learn to put that sort of education to good use--but this by no means excludes leading.  She was raised to be a lady and whatever use a lady can be during the Long Night Sansa is the best bet.       

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@Curled Finger honestly, I think that Littlefinger will probably bail on the Vale if he has the chance to do so when the Long Night approaches. Sansa has been a beautiful doormat in the narrative so far. At some point, her true character will emerge and she will take charge of her life.

Funny how you mentioned the Hound. If he's alive and has the slightest inkling where Sansa is, I think he would walk through fire to be near her. It's always been a hope of mine that he gets the girl in the end, and who better to love a poor sot like the Hound than sweet Sansa.

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19 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

What role will Sansa play in The War For The Dawn, The Great War? Any theories? ^_^

 

Bad!Sansa. Darth Sansa. Winter's lady. Sansa Queen of Air and Darkness. BatSansa & SweetRobin. :)

I speak as a fan of Sansa's storyline, so this is quite a new idea for me, but in hindsight the clue was always there. If two girls are as different as sun and moon, they're not going to be on the same side in the Battle for the Dawn.

The sun or moon identity is hard to pin down actually, and 'Winter's lady' is Jon's description of Alys, who reminded Jon 'so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart'.

But recent reading has edged me towards Sansa being the moon maiden who joins the dark side: including, supernatural imagery for Alayne in Winds of Winter, listed by @Lollygag here, and the Rose for a Stark thread, here.

It's enough to trigger a closer look at some of the dark and magical imagery appearing already around Sansa:

 

  • It was a glorious day, a magical day.    (AGOT, with Joff! before Mycah happened.)
  • She was drunk on the magic of the night, giddy with glamour...    (AGOT Hand's Tourney feast)
  • "I had a dream Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart," she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical...    (AGOT, to Jeyne)
  • The tournament had been the most magical time of her whole life...    (AGOT)
  • ... Sansa gave herself to the darkness.    (AGOT, after Ned beheading)
  • Those had been the most magical days of her life...    (ACOK)
  • She loved ... the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli.    (ACOK note ice colours, who is she praying to?)
  • Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond.... So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.    (ACOK, Jon)
  • Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you'll learn that soon enough ... and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.  (ACOK)
  • "It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, it's a ship I need, not a net for my hair.... [Dontos] "Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see...."    (ACOK)

Magic, magic, magic. Magic appears in connection with other characters, but in those cases there's an actual magical issue to be discussed.

Last one.

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"... The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

Ok, this one's a bit different, and it's important. She jumps out of the tower and she flies. This connects with Bran's coma dream of falling from the tower:

'Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.'

but before that, Bran sees 'the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled' on spires of ice. So it appears that Sansa, like many others, will also get her 'fly or die' moment, but she will actually pass - meaning she will not ultimately be weak. Hopefully she won't ultimately be evil either.

44 minutes ago, Romaine3 said:

Funny how you mentioned the Hound. If he's alive and has the slightest inkling where Sansa is, I think he would walk through fire to be near her. It's always been a hope of mine that he gets the girl in the end, and who better to love a poor sot like the Hound than sweet Sansa.

Walk through fire... Poor Hound, I'm sure he will. But if he wants to be near Sansa, he might have to become a creature of the night himself.  Here's a description from AGOT - 'he seemed to take form out of the night'.

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50 minutes ago, Romaine3 said:

@Curled Finger honestly, I think that Littlefinger will probably bail on the Vale if he has the chance to do so when the Long Night approaches. Sansa has been a beautiful doormat in the narrative so far. At some point, her true character will emerge and she will take charge of her life.

Funny how you mentioned the Hound. If he's alive and has the slightest inkling where Sansa is, I think he would walk through fire to be near her. It's always been a hope of mine that he gets the girl in the end, and who better to love a poor sot like the Hound than sweet Sansa.

I love Sansa as a mirror of Elizabeth 1--the Virgin Queen.  She didn't need or want a man to rule her kingdom.  All the songs and stories of princesses and knights are the sweet idealistic Sansa and I hope she hangs on to some of it.   Still, I figure if Bran loses his legs, Jon loses his life and Arya loses her identity Sansa has to lose something too.   No boyfriends, no husbands.   She's got to sacrifice.  Poor Hound, maybe there is a woman for him somewhere in the vast story, but not Little Bird...though I'm not opposed to a scandalous secret love affair!     

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@Springwatch all of the Stark children (including Jon Snow) of the current generation possess an element of magic within them. Robb and Grey Wind are both dead, so their magic got snuffed out. Sansa is the only child who lives without a Dire Wolf. We all know that tragic story. In the death of Lady, I believe that Sansa's magic is amplified in a way that has yet to be revealed.

Deep down, (even though Sansa's chapters are boring to me & I really can't identify with her in all honesty because I am not a female but I empathize with her so that counts for something right?) Sansa's inherent goodness & her core values have remain unchanged in spite of all the awful things that have happened to her thus far. Keeping this in mind, I don't see how GRRM drastically alters her into another version of her dead mother unless he just flat out kills her off and gives her to the others. I don't see that happening because he has put too much time into having her kicked around. She hasn't been completely broken yet by the circumstances she has suffered through, so it seems to me that her strength of character will win out over any dark forces that may try and consume her. Add to the fact that she lost her Wolf, so the least GRRM can do for her is give her a mean old Dog.

 

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22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Gotta hand it to you I bet I've seen this sentiment offered in 20 different ways, but yours is unsentimental and actually something HUGE Sansa can do without having to marry or bear children.    Kudos

Yes.  I really believe GRRM (being ultimately feminist) does intend to have Sansa's purpose mean something more then getting married and having children.  Not that marriage and children are inherently bad or unfeminist (they aren't), but her story isn't about using her body and family name as a bargaining tool or her worth as a human being.  I think the books show us all the ways this patriarchal role for women can go horribly wrong.  And Sansa herself is someone who starts with absolute faith and trust that performing her societal role perfectly will naturally lead to a happy outcome with prince charming.  Her own sense of self worth is directly to this.  It hurts when she sees with every marriage proposal she's confronted with that it's really her claim that people want.  But it's also good that her eyes are now opened and she can examine the option critically for what it is.  You have to wonder as a reader, can all George think of for Sansa to deal with is yet another marriage plot point???  There's been 5 so far.  I think he's showing us the problem, not the solution.  He wants us to question it.  Yet so many people are so quick to think her only contribution to the story is not actually her contribution, but her husband's.  That invalidates her experiences and the things she's learned along the way if it only amounts to her husband doing all the heavy lifting of the story.  It's making her take a backseat in her own POV.

Spoiler

By the time we get to Harry the Heir, her initial reaction is horror at the idea of yet another marriage.  But I think in the sample we see her thinking about this option more critically.  She's not keen on it, but for the moment it's more of a matter of playing the hand she's been dealt. She does at least make an effort to get to know Harry and really evaluate this option.  Her questions show she's trying to get below the surface with him and understand him better.  What she really wants is to get her life back and to go home, so she has to decide if Harry is worth it.  I don't think this will pan out at all, but it does show a major change in her thinking since AGOT.  She doesn't have faith that if she marries the handsome knighted young lord that everything is going to be okay.  She sees it would mean marrying a shallow asshole that will probably be screwing around soon.    

I think with the Mountain Clans we have an opportunity to settle an issue that has been going on for a while.  Lysa said Petyr will set things to right with them and that is completely wrong.  He hasn't done one thing about the raiding and he is both the Lord of the Trident and LP of the Vale.  The clans are the remnants of the First Men of the Vale that were isolated out by the conquest of the Andals.  The deal they made with Tyrion is that they would take back the Vale by force.  What they really want isn't scraps and looting, but to get their home back which points to a desire for stability.  One of Sansa's biggest strengths is that she is a genuine people person.  She has the "soft power" of making people feel comfortable (even good about themselves) and she is a compassionate listener.  This makes some people just want to act on their better natures.  This shouldn't be underestimated as a very useful tool in convincing people to act for mutual benefit.  It's very akin to how her father treated people.  Yet Sansa also has first hand observations about the uses of political theater.  The Vale culture operates heavily on chivalric ceremony and custom, so she knows how to speak their language.  Yohn Royce, as a very close friend and kin of the Starks, should be a major player in this as well.  He's been iced out as a major leader in the Vale by LF bribing the other lords.  It's no wonder that he married his daughter Ysilla to Horton Redfort's son Mychel because they are the few remaining hold outs against LF.  They're against the ropes right now and might be more open to a negotiation with the clans for their support.  

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Because I have such a nice and well described role for Sansa now I will throw in that perhaps The Vale could become a sort of sanctuary when the war comes.  Perhaps humanity could be safe in such a place?   

Possibly.  There are the grain stores and the Vale of Arryn still has winter wheat growing and soon to be ready for harvest.  Even Jon thought to borrow money from the IB to buy food from the Vale.  There's also Harrenhal.  It's monstrously huge and could be put to use sheltering thousands of people.  It also has fertile farm land surrounding it, but a major problem as well.  All the wars and ravaging have taken it's toll on the smallfolk population of the Riverlands.  What the land needs is an influx of new people to farm and harvest.  Resettlement is a huge part of Jon's plan in the North.  Harrenhal also is centrally located and it's close to waterways for transport.  Curses aside, it's also has enormous historical importance.  It keeps coming up over and over again in the story.  We should expect to see it put to use in the future for something important.  It's currently being held by the pious Bonifer Hasty, who just might respond positively to Sansa based on her being the most devout of her siblings in regards to the Seven (though she has definitely gravitated more toward the Old Gods as well).  Especially if she plays up the Maiden / princess imagery to him considering his history with Rhaella Targaryen.  I don't know if that will go down, but I see a lot of potential options here in the region that could help tremendously in the war and winter. 

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2 hours ago, Romaine3 said:

This is why I don't believe Sansa is going to just sit around, hand out food, and share her knowledge of advanced sewing techniques she learned in her youth from Septa Mordane.

You do realize an army needs to be supported by food and supplies, something only the non-combat folk can supply to them.  Someone has to do it.  The living won't last long without someone handling logistics.  I'm not trying to start anything here, but this sounds heavily female coded in the value of this labor and effort compared to fighting on the field.  This work is vital to the overall war effort and not beneath her or a poor use of her character.  It fits extremely well with her experience in the bread riots seeing how bad things can go when basic needs are not met.  She saw the Tyrells use food to manipulate the smallfolk after they were the ones that actually starved them to begin with.  She heard Cersei's advice to rule through fear and brutality.  She rejects both and says love is the better way to rule.  She will earn her heroism by legitimately caring about people and their needs.  That's her father's legacy and a major reason why people want to fight for his kids ("for Ned's little girl") long after he's dead.       

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@Blue-Eyed Wolf 

I am well aware that feeding your people, feeding your army, and tending to their needs in every capacity you as a leader possibly can is essential to success. Sansa may very well personally do so from time to time to gauge the morale of the people she is leading. For the most part though, she needs to delegate this responsibility to those people she can deem trustworthy enough to handle this task. Her focus as Warden of the Vale needs to shift primarily to the grand scheme of things.

She needs to be paying attention to troop counts, enemy movements, recruiting the hill tribes and making them feel important and included, how many non combatants are under her wings, what can they do to be productive, can she keep her lines of communications open, supplies flowing in, everything you can think of that would lead to success, Sansa has to be mindful of in order to ensure that her people make it through. The worst part about it is that she is going to have to live with herself knowing that she is going to be sending good people to their deaths. That I think will be the hardest part for her when it is all said and done.

I think she will be able to do it though.

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49 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I love Sansa as a mirror of Elizabeth 1--the Virgin Queen.  She didn't need or want a man to rule her kingdom.  All the songs and stories of princesses and knights are the sweet idealistic Sansa and I hope she hangs on to some of it.   Still, I figure if Bran loses his legs, Jon loses his life and Arya loses her identity Sansa has to lose something too.   No boyfriends, no husbands.   She's got to sacrifice.  Poor Hound, maybe there is a woman for him somewhere in the vast story, but not Little Bird...though I'm not opposed to a scandalous secret love affair!  

I think she does, but it's more tempered by experience.  She sees that all to often people treat the knighthood as window dressing.  The problem many of our soiled knights encounter is that they made their knightly vows second to all their other vows and decisions, when it should have been the other way around.  Yes, there is some inherent misogyny in knightly culture, but the defending the weak and helpless is always a good thing.  I don't think George wants us to throw the baby out with the bathwater as he is turning a very critical eye on the institution.  The songs are about high ideals.  But instead of saying the songs are stupid and lies, he's saying that most people will fail to live up to their highest ideals but the effort is important.  It's still worth trying.  So sometimes the songs are true and there are legit heroes in the world.  I hope a song is written about Brienne ^_^.  While she may start out as a Maiden figure, she certainly has tons of marriage and motherhood symbolism surrounding her.  I doubt she's ultimately destined to be a "virgin queen" figure.  I'm just saying that she dreams of a daughter that looks like Arya (who's been mistaken for someone's kid) and she pictured being surrounded by puppies (not children) when she imagined her marriage to Willas, with the lame leg.  And Stranger is a stallion and he refuses to be gelded :leer:.  I think there will be a permanently rejecting the expected role and telling society to go pound salt on this one area of her life even if she's looked down upon for it.  She does have a willful streak when it comes to love as we saw with her running to the queen out of "love" for Joffrey.  That had tragic consequences because of her childish understanding of what love was and the fact that Joffrey was not a guy worth rebelling over (to say the least).  But if the guy was someone worthy and she has a more mature understanding of love...

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"I've never seen an aurochs," Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen.
Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread.
"She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want."

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled. "And where is Arya this morning?"

There's lots of people in the story that wanted to be Starks, but couldn't.  I think there's maybe one or two that might actually get adopted as a Starks after all is said and done.      

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As Alayne, Sansa was running the Eyrie household. That means ordering supplies, working with household staff from the kitchens to cleaning crews and maybe even outside workers. It also means making and working within budgets, dealing with tradesman, communications, entertainment, etcetera, etcetera. Running a large household that also serves as the center of government is not a small job, and is excellent training for the logistics function of an army. My nephew does just this in the Quartermaster Corps of the US Army - make sure supplies are ordered and arrive where needed when they are needed wherever the Army is on the globe.

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4 minutes ago, deja vu said:

As Alayne, Sansa was running the Eyrie household. That means ordering supplies, working with household staff from the kitchens to cleaning crews and maybe even outside workers. It also means making and working within budgets, dealing with tradesman, communications, entertainment, etcetera, etcetera. Running a large household that also serves as the center of government is not a small job, and is excellent training for the logistics function of an army. My nephew does just this in the Quartermaster Corps of the US Army - make sure supplies are ordered and arrive where needed when they are needed wherever the Army is on the globe.

Very well put. The experience she is gaining in this role will pay off in spades for her in the near future. Having a grasp on supply and logistics gives her the resume she will need to run the grand scheme of things in the upcoming war.

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I think she will be heavily involved in rallying support for the fight, especially in the South.   It is likely that it won't be taken too seriously outside of the North, an, as a prominent Northerner and Jon's sister, Sansa will try to change that.   I also expect her to help organize evacuations and distribution of supplies, as well.

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