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sansa, arya, and dany

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54 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Did I anywhere said that she's a bad guy, or that Viserys is poor or noble, or anything of the sorts? No, I didn't.

He got what he deserved, though she did played part in his death, and did it intentionally.

And I repeat again - I'm not a Dany hater. But let's be honest she's far from being perfect, and she does many mistakes, as does Jon.

 

i agree dany is far from perfect. i always thought her husband killed viserys because of his son not her.

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13 minutes ago, princess brittany said:

i agree dany is far from perfect. i always thought her husband killed viserys because of his son not her.

Who is perfect both in this world or ours?

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1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

Your using the word delusion wrong. 

Delusion means: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

Given how no one knows that Rhaegar's true born son is alive except for two people at this point who have not told anyone, the fact that Dany thinks she is the last Targaryen can't be a delusion by definition.

English isn't my native language. It's my 4th.

What I meant, is that what she thinks as being true is actually false. So all her claims are based on false information. And I think that even if she will discover truth, it won't change her demeanor. So then she will be delusional ^_^

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3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Might I ask for the source of this statement?
I thought the script wasn't even finished yet, so I'm surprised there has already been spoilers of this magnitude. 

Here's my  understanding of it:

 

Spoiler

Years ago, when GRRM and D&D originally pitched the show to HBO, GRRM gave them an outline which ended with 5 people living for sure:  Bran, Arya, Dany, Jon and Tyrion.    These are the "Safe Five."  Now, my understanding is that unless they CHANGE that, those 5 are safe.  My personal opinion is that they will NOT change it.  My understanding is that GRRM has basically said he has known and envisioned the ending of the story for a long time, and will not change it just cuz parts become known and/or pieces of the puzzle are figured out (which has actually happened, most notably with R+L=J.  We have also been told that the endings in the show for the major characters WILL be the same as in the books.  Thus, I believe that those 5 are safe.  Now, is that a guarantee that Sansa will die?  No, not as far as I know, BUT, Sansa is a major character and her absence from that list seems pretty significant to me. My opinion is that Sansa will die.

 

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Here's my  understanding of it:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Years ago, when GRRM and D&D originally pitched the show to HBO, GRRM gave them an outline which ended with 5 people living for sure:  Bran, Arya, Dany, Jon and Tyrion.    These are the "Safe Five."  Now, my understanding is that unless they CHANGE that, those 5 are safe.  My personal opinion is that they will NOT change it.  My understanding is that GRRM has basically said he has known and envisioned the ending of the story for a long time, and will not change it just cuz parts become known and/or pieces of the puzzle are figured out (which has actually happened, most notably with R+L=J.  We have also been told that the endings in the show for the major characters WILL be the same as in the books.  Thus, I believe that those 5 are safe.  Now, is that a guarantee that Sansa will die?  No, not as far as I know, BUT, Sansa is a major character and her absence from that list seems pretty significant to me. My opinion is that Sansa will die.

 

I think those spoilers are actually rather wrong... You may have confused some stories.

Spoiler

1/ The outline was not for DnD, but actually for the publisher in 1996.

2. Since then, ASOIAF has changed drastically. The story, the characters...Even the list of the main characters (now Sansa is part of the group)

3. The 5 characters are not supposed to survive the series, just that they will be alive for the final showdown.

4. Due to the changes in Sansa's story, she became the part of the said group and we now see that she, just as the other 5 main characters, is actually alive for the final showdown.

 

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6 minutes ago, Risto said:

I think those spoilers are actually rather wrong... You may have confused some stories.

  Hide contents

3. The 5 characters are not supposed to survive the series, just that they will be alive for the final showdown.

4. Due to the changes in Sansa's story, she became the part of the said group and we now see that she, just as the other 5 main characters, is actually alive for the final showdown.

 

Two out of four ain't bad:

Spoiler

 

3. The quote is "Five characters, however, will make it through all three volumes, growing from children to adults and changing the world around them and themselves." This quote also qualifies an earlier statement that GRRM wants the reader to feel as if no character is ever safe; he is essentially admitting that despite attempting to create that impression, five characters are in fact "safe." GRRM then goes on to specify that those five characters are Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Bran and Arya. Nothing is mentioned about a "final showdown." 

4. No, Sansa never became part of "said group." There's no indication that the "top five" has become the "top six," or that Sansa is any safer than she was when GRRM planned the series in 1993.

 

I agree with @Cron:

Spoiler

Sansa's absence from the list of five characters guaranteed safe passage in the original outline, a list including three of her siblings (well, believed sibling in Jon's case), is rather ominous for her prospects for surviving the books.

 

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Below is the exact quote. Making it through all three volumes certainly sounds like they survive. But one never knows. 

 

"Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow."

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Here's my  understanding of it:

 

  Hide contents

Years ago, when GRRM and D&D originally pitched the show to HBO, GRRM gave them an outline which ended with 5 people living for sure:  Bran, Arya, Dany, Jon and Tyrion.    These are the "Safe Five."  Now, my understanding is that unless they CHANGE that, those 5 are safe.  My personal opinion is that they will NOT change it.  My understanding is that GRRM has basically said he has known and envisioned the ending of the story for a long time, and will not change it just cuz parts become known and/or pieces of the puzzle are figured out (which has actually happened, most notably with R+L=J.  We have also been told that the endings in the show for the major characters WILL be the same as in the books.  Thus, I believe that those 5 are safe.  Now, is that a guarantee that Sansa will die?  No, not as far as I know, BUT, Sansa is a major character and her absence from that list seems pretty significant to me. My opinion is that Sansa will die.

i think sansa wont die. i have a feeling that one of the other starks will die like bran.

 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Did I anywhere said that she's a bad guy, or that Viserys is poor or noble, or anything of the sorts? No, I didn't.

He got what he deserved, though she did played part in his death, and did it intentionally.

And I repeat again - I'm not a Dany hater. But let's be honest she's far from being perfect, and she does many mistakes, as does Jon.

 

She didn't play a part in his death. He died because he was a dipshit who threatened both the wife and the future heir of the leader of bloodthirsty savages. He was too dumb to live and she had nothing to do with him being stupid.

With regards to her claim to the throne, as far as everyone knows she's the last Targaryen. There is no point in trying to predict that she will not step down or that she will based on opinion, rather than evidence. I doubt it will come to a serious contest between Jon and Dany- the most obvious solution would be for them to marry, and a more pressing issue is defeating the white walkers. The only person obsessed with the throne right now is Cersei- everyone else is preparing to survive the long winter.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

I think those spoilers are actually rather wrong... You may have confused some stories.

  Reveal hidden contents

1/ The outline was not for DnD, but actually for the publisher in 1996.

2. Since then, ASOIAF has changed drastically. The story, the characters...Even the list of the main characters (now Sansa is part of the group)

3. The 5 characters are not supposed to survive the series, just that they will be alive for the final showdown.

4. Due to the changes in Sansa's story, she became the part of the said group and we now see that she, just as the other 5 main characters, is actually alive for the final showdown.

 

Wow, that's really interesting!

That's not how I heard it, but I'm not saying you're wrong.  Maybe it's like the "telephone game," where things get repeated and the story accidentally gets changed as more and more people get confused.  Could be.

I'm confident that what I wrote is what i heard, but hey, maybe I heard wrong.  I certainly do not claim to have heard it from GRRM himself.

In any event, even based on what you wrote, my personal opinion remains that the characters I mentioned WILL all still be alive at the final ending (because I choose to believe that, whatever else may have changed, the core remains, and subsequent information on this issue MIGHT have been misdirection), certain others will NOT be alive, and some others are big question marks.

Edited by Cron

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2 hours ago, princess brittany said:

 

Well, I suppose you could be right.

Have you read about the theory that Bran is the Night King, and Jon will put a final ending to it by killing Bran?

(By the way, this is not spoiler, of course, it is just theory, but it's a theory that seems to be gaining a lot of steam.)

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On 9/4/2017 at 8:37 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

What could be problematic is if the Starks pack up. If they really are going for Aegon and his sisters. That leaves Dany in the cold. Also if the North proclaims Sansa Queen and Dany is faced with a ruler who is legitimate, chosen by their people, not crazy and who she can't get in bed with. Well she can but I don't see Sansa going for it.

The north is in trouble.  Sansa is pretty stupid but hopefully she will realize that they desperately need the help of Daenerys, her dragons, her Unsullied, and her Dothraki.  The north has nothing with which to fight the WW with.  Daenerys could turn around and return to Dragonstone and let the north die.  She can easily turn around and go back to the Bay of Dragons, which can be hers if she wants, and just let the damn north suffer what's coming on their own if that damn Sansa and the Starks don't swallow their pride and bend their cold knees. 

Do I think the girls will get along?  Yes.  Will they like each other?  No.  Daenerys is everything that Sansa wished she is.  Daenerys is far superior to Sansa in every way.  So no, I don't think Sansa will like that.   Bottom line, the Starks should bend their knees to Daenerys and swear fealty.

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4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Below is the exact quote. Making it through all three volumes certainly sounds like they survive. But one never knows. 

 

"Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow."

Sansa is a second-tier character.  Definitely not in the Top Five.  Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya are the top five. 

 

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I can see Sansa really despising Daenerys (for many reasons), but she'll despise Jon even more for relinquishing the Northern sovereignty to a Targaryen. I'm not sure with Arya, to be honest. I can see her admiring Danaery's, but not necessarily liking her just because Jon does. It will take time for her to warm to her, if the time is given. Which I doubt it will be.

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6 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

The north is in trouble.  Sansa is pretty stupid but hopefully she will realize that they desperately need the help of Daenerys, her dragons, her Unsullied, and her Dothraki.  The north has nothing with which to fight the WW with.  Daenerys could turn around and return to Dragonstone and let the north die.  She can easily turn around and go back to the Bay of Dragons, which can be hers if she wants, and just let the damn north suffer what's coming on their own if that damn Sansa and the Starks don't swallow their pride and bend their cold knees. 

Do I think the girls will get along?  Yes.  Will they like each other?  No.  Daenerys is everything that Sansa wished she is.  Daenerys is far superior to Sansa in every way.  So no, I don't think Sansa will like that.   Bottom line, the Starks should bend their knees to Daenerys and swear fealty.

For the thousand time I've written this, but still....and then get screwed by the incredibly increaed WW army herself, when they come South. The only idiot is Cersei. Daenerys (luckily for mankind) is less an idiot.

The girls will get along, no doubt. Daenerys is not what Sansa wishes to be...Sansa wishes to be home (yes, she would be a wonderful Lady of Winterfell). Daenerys has no home and all she wanted until recently was IT.
The Starks (and it was stupid that Jon did) should not bend the knee to Daenerys. They should be alleys - yes. Jon is surely at least an equal.

Anyway, I do not think Daenerys is fit to rule anywhere. If (and the word IF speaks volumes) she ever breaks the wheel, then I will believe she is fit, but so far she has just been power-hungry self-righteous conqueror, well...until Jon came and changed her mind that cost HER a dragon, her child as she calls them.

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16 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Sansa is a second-tier character.  Definitely not in the Top Five.  Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya are the top five. 

No , she isn't. If you count Arya and Bran in main characters, Sansa has to be there. According to the books we have. Outline is a different story and as such can't be taken more seriously than the story we have. Simply, Sansa we have today is not the Sansa planned in the outline. The number of her POV chapters, the effort that is put in her growth, the position she is and closeness to certain villains of the story, the fact that Martin clearly makes strong parallels between the arcs of three Stark children (and not just them, but also Jon and Dany), the fact that this is the cross-generational saga, all of that simply refute the idea that Sansa is a second-tier character

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The show will probably have some drama in the first ep but move past it pretty quick. I expect Arya to like/admire Dany because of her similarity to Queen Nymeria (George made this comparison, not me) and vice versa. I expect some drama with Sansa in the first ep because of bending the knee but considering the Wall is down, it shouldn't really matter. I expect the WW to be attacking Winterfell at either the end of the first episode or start of the second.

 

As for the outline, it def makes it seem like those 5 will all survive. People say that it just means that they make it to the endgame and their fate is uncertain there but in context of the letter, that's not what it seems like George is saying. The sentence before he says he is willing to kill any character and then brings up those 5 as the ones who will 'survive through all 5 books'. That to me is why Sansa is still on the hot seat. A the very least, it rules out her sitting on the Iron Throne which many used to think was a possibility since George has apparently known that for over 25 years

Edited by Commander Jon Snow

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22 minutes ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

The show will probably have some drama in the first ep but move past it pretty quick. I expect Arya to like/admire Dany because of her similarity to Queen Nymeria (George made this comparison, not me) and vice versa. I expect some drama with Sansa in the first ep because of bending the knee but considering the Wall is down, it shouldn't really matter. I expect the WW to be attacking Winterfell at either the end of the first episode or start of the second.

 

As for the outline, it def makes it seem like those 5 will all survive. People say that it just means that they make it to the endgame and their fate is uncertain there but in context of the letter, that's not what it seems like George is saying. The sentence before he says he is willing to kill any character and then brings up those 5 as the ones who will 'survive through all 5 books'. That to me is why Sansa is still on the hot seat. A the very least, it rules out her sitting on the Iron Throne which many used to think was a possibility since George has apparently known that for over 25 years

I agree. It certainly seems like Sansa is a more important character now then the original outline suggests, but I would still give her a lower chance of surviving because she is not in that group of 5 and we don't have it from George himself that she will survive until the end. 

Although having said that, I think it likely she survives.

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6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I agree. It certainly seems like Sansa is a more important character now then the original outline suggests, but I would still give her a lower chance of surviving because she is not in that group of 5 and we don't have it from George himself that she will survive until the end. 

Although having said that, I think it likely she survives.

But that group of five doesn't exist anymore as we now have to count Sansa there. You assume that Sansa has lower chance on the basis of something that has been said (and ultimately refuted) 20 years ago. I think that outline is useful for some other things, but not in terms of predicting the ending as the story and the characters are utterly different. Martin outlined that with one Sansa in mind. Now, his Sansa, the Sansa we know (and love :D ) is completely different character. I would say that she has the same chance of survival as Arya or Tyrion, for example. We simply can't forget the story we have in order to put so much emphasis on the outline. 

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