Speculation: Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are bastards of Aerys II

[DragonBlood]

First off, I haven't watched the TV series since Season 4, so please, no spoilers from the series.

 

So, I just finished reading the history of the Targaryens and noticed that:

1. Aerys II lusted forJoanna Lannister.

2. He took some liberties during Tywin's bedding.

3. Months later, Joanna gives birth to twins.

4. Years later, Aerys II goes to Casterly Rock where Tywin holds a celebration for the birth of Viserys.

5. Later, Joanna gets pregnant again, and gives birth to a deformed dwarf, rumoured to have a tail that was later cut off.

 

What if Aeryes took a lot of liberty with Joanna? Tywin would obviously have known of this, but kept silent for many reasons, some being:

1. Tywin was the Hand of the King and his close friend (for a time, before he got mad). This gave him the power to rule, which he would lose if he called on Aerys' crimes. There is no guarantee that Rhaegar would let him rule as he did.

2. Tywin might never have known for sure whether Jaime and Cersei were his own or Aerys', and would never have wanted to. For many years after, he did not have a child, so it would mean he is left heirless.

3. Tywin did not want dishonor to taint House Lannister or his wife, whom he loved. Presumably, she was forced into it, or at least he was convinced she was.

All this would make him more and more frustrated and angry at the king. When he comes with his wife to King's Landing and Aerys publicly comments about Joanna's "teats", that would have been the last straw, setting into motion his plan to eventually betray the king. (I'm guessing he even had a role to play in the abduction of Lyanna Stark, which would cause the Starks, Baratheons, Tyrells and almost all the realm to rebel). This falls in place with his general character; his blood isn't hot, and his vengeance always comes with a slow, hard patience.

 

This explains:

1. Why Jaime and Cersei have incestuous feelings for each other; they have Targaryen blood in them. There is evidence that this characteristic is part of their genes; when Aegon V the Unlikely wanted no more incest in the Targaryen dynasty, he still couldn't stop his son falling in love with his own sister, since they were children.

2. Why Tyrion was born a dwarf, "deformed", with a tail; this has long been a feature in the Targaryen inheritance. Rhaenyra Targaryen was confirmed to have a deformed child, as did many other ancestors of Aerys II. Aerys himself had had many, many deformed and stillborn children with Rhaella.

 

It might be that the typical Lannister features of golden hair and green eyes might have trumped the Targaryen genetics of violet eyes and silver-golden hair.

Thoughts?

[4 Eyed Crow]

If Twyin was mad at Aerys for impregnating Joanna, I'd expect that he'd quit right away as Hand of the King, since (if I remember correctly) he was more powerful than Aerys at that point. His power comes more from money than from being Hand, so he won't necessarily lose power. 

Tywin had always wanted to groom Jaime into the perfect heir, so I don't think he considered himself as "left heirless". Then again, you could argue that it was just an act.

Maybe Jaime and Cersei got their preference for incest from the Targaryens, but anybody could be incestuous. Beyond the wall, Craster took his daughters as wives, and it's highly unlikely that he's related to the Targaryens. 

Tyrion was rumoured to have a tail, but that is just a rumour and nothing more. In ASOS, Oberyn said that he had nothing in between his legs "but a tiny pink cock". If he had a tail that was cut off, I would expect there to also be a bandage or some sort of scar.

Tywin and Joanna were cousins while Joanna and Aerys were completely unrelated. If anything, Joanna and Tywin would probably have more chance of passing on a recessive deformity onto their child Joanna and Aerys would. After all, the deformities seen in incest don't just happen randomly; they are the result of familial recessive traits popping up. Also, by the descriptions of Tyrion in the books, it sounds like he has a dominant type of dwarfism called achondroplasia, which is either the result of random mutation, or inherited from a parent who has it themselves. Then again, maybe genetics in Planetos are different.

But anything's possible, really, at this point, so you may be right.

[Falcon2909]

Would be the mother of all plot twists if Joanna and Aerys were actually in love

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 4.9.2017 at 8:42 AM, DragonBlood said:

2. He took some liberties during Tywin's bedding.

3. Months later, Joanna gives birth to twins.

4. Years later, Aerys II goes to Casterly Rock where Tywin holds a celebration for the birth of Viserys.

5. Later, Joanna gets pregnant again, and gives birth to a deformed dwarf, rumoured to have a tail that was later cut off.

I think you are confusing some things.

1. The wedding took place in 263 AC, but the twins were born in 266 AC.

2. Viserys was born in 276 AC, but Joanna died in 273 AC.

BUT: There was a tourny in King's Landing in 272 AC (because of the tenth anniversary of Aerys's coronation), and Joanna was there.

[DragonBlood]

On 9/4/2017 at 6:55 PM, 4 Eyed Crow said:

If Twyin was mad at Aerys for impregnating Joanna, I'd expect that he'd quit right away as Hand of the King, since (if I remember correctly) he was more powerful than Aerys at that point. His power comes more from money than from being Hand, so he won't necessarily lose power. 

Tywin had always wanted to groom Jaime into the perfect heir, so I don't think he considered himself as "left heirless". Then again, you could argue that it was just an act.

Maybe Jaime and Cersei got their preference for incest from the Targaryens, but anybody could be incestuous. Beyond the wall, Craster took his daughters as wives, and it's highly unlikely that he's related to the Targaryens. 

Tyrion was rumoured to have a tail, but that is just a rumour and nothing more. In ASOS, Oberyn said that he had nothing in between his legs "but a tiny pink cock". If he had a tail that was cut off, I would expect there to also be a bandage or some sort of scar.

Tywin and Joanna were cousins while Joanna and Aerys were completely unrelated. If anything, Joanna and Tywin would probably have more chance of passing on a recessive deformity onto their child Joanna and Aerys would. After all, the deformities seen in incest don't just happen randomly; they are the result of familial recessive traits popping up. Also, by the descriptions of Tyrion in the books, it sounds like he has a dominant type of dwarfism called achondroplasia, which is either the result of random mutation, or inherited from a parent who has it themselves. Then again, maybe genetics in Planetos are different.

But anything's possible, really, at this point, so you may be right.

Good point about Oberyn. It's still possible that he somehow missed it, though, but it's unlikely.

However, I strongly feel that incest is still a genetic trait of Valyrian birth. Craster took his children for wives, but not his own sister. They're both equally incestuous, sure, but biologically speaking, a brother and sister growing in the same house and having sexual feelings for each other is extremely rare. There is something called the Westermarck Effect, which makes siblings repelled by each other's sexuality.

I still think it's possible, though unlikely.. Let's wait and see.

[DragonBlood]

On 9/6/2017 at 3:26 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think you are confusing some things.

1. The wedding took place in 263 AC, but the twins were born in 266 AC.

2. Viserys was born in 276 AC, but Joanna died in 273 AC.

BUT: There was a tourny in King's Landing in 272 AC (because of the tenth anniversary of Aerys's coronation), and Joanna was there.

Good catch with the dates. This definitely seems to rule out the twins being children of Aerys.

I somehow thought the tourney was held for Viserys' birth. Weird.

[4 Eyed Crow]

This is a quote from GRRM himself:

Quote

Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

Tyrion is a traditional Lannister name, so it would make more sense if Tywin was the father. It seems odd that a Targaryen would give his baby a traditional Lannister name, especially since Jaime (whoever his father is) did not even get one. 

Well, I guess you could argue Aerys was taking precautions to not make people suspicious. But I think it would have been enough to go with a generic name like Robert or Jon and, if need be, give some warnings to keep silent.  

[DragonBlood]

I just noticed. One more thing to add to why Tyrion is of Aerys' blood is that 

Spoiler

at the Bridge of Dream in Chroyane, Tyrion went into the water in direct contact with a stone man, but still didn't get Greyscale. This is because those of the dragon blood do not get diseases (Daenerys recollects this at one point).

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 15.11.2017 at 3:17 AM, DragonBlood said:

at the Bridge of Dream in Chroyane, Tyrion went into the water in direct contact with a stone man, but still didn't get Greyscale. This is because those of the dragon blood do not get diseases (Daenerys recollects this at one point).

Maegelle, Daeron II, Valarr and Matarys will be glad to hear about their immunity to diseases. ;-)

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Maegelle, Daeron II, Valarr and Matarys will be glad to hear about their immunity to diseases. ;-)

Plus Aegon III. He died of tuberculosis.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

On 13/9/2017 at 5:19 PM, DragonBlood said:

Good point about Oberyn. It's still possible that he somehow missed it, though, but it's unlikely.

However, I strongly feel that incest is still a genetic trait of Valyrian birth. Craster took his children for wives, but not his own sister. They're both equally incestuous, sure, but biologically speaking, a brother and sister growing in the same house and having sexual feelings for each other is extremely rare. There is something called the Westermarck Effect, which makes siblings repelled by each other's sexuality.

I still think it's possible, though unlikely.. Let's wait and see.

While I agree with you to an extent, we need to remember that most marriages between the Targaryens were arranged. In arranged marriages, the couple has sex with each other because it's their duty to produce children. Sure, love or at least fondness may come later, but duty comes first.

And that brings forth the question, how many Targaryens were actually attracted to each other? Sure, they've grown up together and they're most likely good friends, though there are a few exceptions (*cough* Aegon IV and Naerys *cough*), but was there attraction to each other or did they just do their duty to their family?

[Lord Varys]

On 13.9.2017 at 6:19 PM, DragonBlood said:

There is something called the Westermarck Effect, which makes siblings repelled by each other's sexuality.

Apparently, there are hints that the Westermarck effect is more rooted in social norms and behavior than biology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

While I agree with you to an extent, we need to remember that most marriages between the Targaryens were arranged. In arranged marriages, the couple has sex with each other because it's their duty to produce children. Sure, love or at least fondness may come later, but duty comes first.

If there is something to the Westermarck effect then it is rather unlikely that many of the Targaryens were actually romantically in love with each other or sexually attracted to each other. 

There are hints that the Targaryens grew up in an environment where their incestuous unions were considered to be perfectly normal and accepted. Egg casually mentions that he is betrothed to his sister Daella in TSS, never realizing that Dunk is abhorred by the whole incestuous marriage thing.

If we are not talking about siblings who didn't like each other all that much - Aegon-Naerys or Aerys-Rhaella - then the fact that they were siblings (or other close kin) could have helped them to get through their arranged marriages much better than many of the other people who were forced into arranged marriages (e.g. Stannis-Selyse or Jon-Lysa). They may have not loved each other romantically but they would have loved each other as siblings.

 

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

And that brings forth the question, how many Targaryens were actually attracted to each other? Sure, they've grown up together and they're most likely good friends, though there are a few exceptions (*cough* Aegon IV and Naerys *cough*), but was there attraction to each other or did they just do their duty to their family?

Aegon-Rhaenys, Jaehaerys-Alysanne, and Jaehaerys-Shaera seem to have been really romantically in love. About the others we simply don't know enough, but Aegon-Visenya and Aerys-Rhaella were clearly not in love.

I assume Aelor-Aelora could also have been in love. They were twins, after all. About Aegon-Rhaena and Baelon-Alyssa we don't know all that much (or anything).

[4 Eyed Crow]

On 9/13/2017 at 0:19 PM, DragonBlood said:

However, I strongly feel that incest is still a genetic trait of Valyrian birth. Craster took his children for wives, but not his own sister. They're both equally incestuous, sure, but biologically speaking, a brother and sister growing in the same house and having sexual feelings for each other is extremely rare. There is something called the Westermarck Effect, which makes siblings repelled by each other's sexuality.

I still think it's possible, though unlikely.. Let's wait and see.

While incestuous marriage is a Valyrian tradition, likely it’s more influenced by surroundings, rather than a genetic trait. There’s House Velaryon, which is also from Valyrian birth, and there’s not anything to suggest that the Velaryons are incestuous.

[Castellan]

I think its unlikely Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's but I think that idea has been deliberately thrown in as a red herring.

I think Tyrion is a chimera. A chimera is a genetic mix where two lots of fertilised eggs have merged and the person can have some parts (e.g. blood cells) from one father and others from another. Tyrion is not just a dwarf, he is particularly deformed as well, and has two different colours of hair and differently coloured eyes. It seems like he will turn out to be palsy with dragons like Brown Ben Plumm. 

The mythical chimera from which the genetic condition has been named had the head of a lion, the tail of a serpent and a goats head in the middle of its back. That sounds like Tyrion I guess the goat part could be his tendency to act the goat or his predilection for sex (goatishness). 

I also don't think Tywin would have let any suspicions about parentage of any of his children rest. Nor would he have failed to act if he knew. I think Joanna hid whatever happened with Aerys precisely because her husband would act immediately and possibly get himself killed. Classic reason for putting up with rape, or not telling anyone. I think he just resents Tyrion for being a dwarf and causing Joanna's death.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Not long after the wedding, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella Targaryen from her service in King's Landing, departed for Casterly Rock at once, and she seldom visited the capital afterwards. That reduces greatly the chances that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys's children. 

Timeline makes it more possible for Tyrion to be Aerys's son.Joanna attended the Anniversary Tourney in King's Landing in 272 AC and in 273 birthed Tyrion. I believe that he is truly Twyin's son. Twyin would have killed him if he was not his son. Story so far has focused on Tyrion resembling Twyin unlike Cersei and Jaime (in character). 

 

 

[Rufus Snow]

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

I keep wondering what exactly Aunt Genna means by this. Is it the literal truth, or does she mean Tyrion is closer in character to Tywin than Jaime is?

[Shiera Blackwood]

On 9/22/2017 at 9:00 PM, 4 Eyed Crow said:

Tyrion is a traditional Lannister name, so it would make more sense if Tywin was the father. It seems odd that a Targaryen would give his baby a traditional Lannister name, especially since Jaime (whoever his father is) did not even get one. 

Well, I guess you could argue Aerys was taking precautions to not make people suspicious. But I think it would have been enough to go with a generic name like Robert or Jon and, if need be, give some warnings to keep silent.  

Well, Jaime DID get a traditional Lannister name. Unlike some of the other big families that stick to a very narrow palette of naming patterns (looking at you, Targaryens with your endless ae diphthong), the Lannisters seem to have several different naming traditions that repeat from one generation to the next. The "Ty" names (mainly for men, but not exclusively) are the most recognizable, possibly because the past few heirs to Casterly Rock have had a Ty name. "Lan" and "Ge" names have historically been popular, along with "Cer" and "Ja/Jo" names. Jaime and Cersei have close ancestors named Cerelle and Jaesin, and first cousins named Cerenna and Janei.

In other words, I don't think that Joanna and Tywin would have placed more importance on a "Ty" name than any other that followed a family pattern. All of their kids are steeped in the Lannister name Kool-Aid.

[Danelle]

On 12/29/2017 at 0:37 AM, Rufus Snow said:

I keep wondering what exactly Aunt Genna means by this. Is it the literal truth, or does she mean Tyrion is closer in character to Tywin than Jaime is?

The second.

She also compares Jaime to his uncles, claiming that he has their characteristics but when it comes to ruthless tactics and a calm,cold attitude he is nothing like Tywin. 

On 9/4/2017 at 4:37 PM, Falcon2909 said:

Would be the mother of all plot twists if Joanna and Aerys were actually in love

Actually that might not be a plot twist at all.

We really don't know many things about Joanna, other than that Tywin and the twins defended her memory. While Barristan mentioned that tales about her were told in KL, no such tales continued after Cersei became queen. Jaime, who loathed Aerys, is oblivious of the lust that his King felt for his mother. Judging from Aerys' aggressive behavior towards Rhaella, it was natural to expect that he had forced Joanna as well. But according to WOIAF, at least at some point, they seemed to be in love and Joanna wanted to have an affair with him. In the early stages of their affair, Aerys does not appear to be the same man that Jaime slaughtered and it is likely that Joanna liked him. The big question is whether her feelings for him were as strong after she gave birth to the twins and then she was publicly insulted by Aerys. I would love to find out what exactly occurred during her last visit to KL. 

[newbieone]

It's possible and hinted at, so who knows, perhaps it's true, especially if we end up with Tyrion as a proper dragonrider with no explanation such as 'oh, it's extremely rare, but it does happens in the general population' or 'some distant ancestor up the line' (a lot of people had a Targaryen grandmother prior to Robert's Rebellion).

What I find inconsistent is that Tywin and Joanna loved each other throughout, and there are no indications of her being polymarous, hence she probably wouldn't be one to cheat on him, and what we certainly don't have is hints of rape. 'Unwonted liberties' is not consensual, of course, but if that had been full-on rape, then it would have been stated as such, since there were witnesses and not just rumours.

Besides, Aerys's remark about Joanna's breasts seem to indicate a lack of a closer relationship, or familiarity, or anything like that. This is a weak argument, of course, but intuitively he sounds more like a perv who's been fantasizing about her than a former lover or sexual partner.

[Helga Stark]

It would be fascinating if this were true, if Tywin was building a dynasty for the children of the man he eventually fought against and so on - but I doubt it.

For one, we know Tywin believed Joanna’s safety and honour was more important than being Aerys’ Hand. Unless I’m mistaken, Aerys made some crude comments about Joanna’s one night and the next day Tywin tried to resign as Hand.

Also, it this is true it completely ruins the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin was seemingly perfect - intelligent, cunning, handsome, powerful, inspiring, courageous - was most similar to Tyrion - who is apparently deformed and a drunk and lover of whores- of all his children.

They hate each other and yet are so very alike and despite it being his deepest desire Tywin cannot prove Tyrion isn’t his flesh and blood. Having Aerys as Tyrion’s true father just makes Tywin out to be some especially cruel evil step parent. Which is just, well, that would totally ruin this amazing story and relationship, in my opinion.