alternate jon

[Graydon Hicks]

what if jon had been sent to essos to live a little, instead of going and committing himself to a life of celibacy and unpleasant company on the wall?

[Romaine3]

What if Tyrion hit a late growth spurt? 

[Graydon Hicks]

then tywin would pull that stick out of his ass.

[Romaine3]

29 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

then tywin would pull that stick out of his ass.

Lol, doubtful... We'll mark it down as a "maybe" though.

[Graydon Hicks]

i started this thread cause i was wondering how thing would change for jon if he had gone to essos. in essos, the stigma against bastards doesnt exist. no unless brought by other westerosi. maybe he spends some time as a merchants guard, or joins a sellsword company for a few years and earn himself a comfortable amount of gold. maybe even find himself some pretty young thing and start a family. 

maybe he hears about the targaryens, i think they would have been on their way to vaes dothrak at that point, maybe about as far as quohor? and he decides to go have a look at the last remnants of a house that have become something of a myth or legend for his generation.

or does he head south into the disputed lands and come across the golden company, the most famed and successful of the mercenaries of essos.

[Gendarrion]

there's nothing to Essos for him, at least at the wall he becomes a better person(from arrogant at first) and also guided by good people such as Maester Aemon, Jeor and Donal Noye, in essos there's nothing for him there. he might be used by illyrio for some sort of scheme but that's just unlikely. if he goes to bravos or lys he will just be a traveling bastard and probably join sellsword companies someplace along the way. but he is seeking for honor and he can't find it there..

[Romaine3]

Jon's decision to join the Night's Watch has always baffled me honestly. Didn't he know that one doesn't just sign up for a life at the Wall? It's certainly not a romantic place to live your life. All of the brothers are criminals of some sort, or disgraced noblemen seeking redemption. Plus, the vow of celibacy! I mean come on Jon! At 14 all I did was think about sex. At 35, I'm still the same way!

Plus his family situation makes no sense. Eddard was such a good role model, but never notices that his wife treats Jon like he is less than dirt? He had to have noticed! Why didn't he put his foot down from the get go and let Catelyn know that Jon was important to him, and that if she didn't love the boy like the mother he needed, that he wouldn't tolerate it and send her packing. Nope! He allows her to openly resent Jon's existence.

If Jon had chosen to run off to Essos, who would have funded his trip? A boy who knows nothing like Jon would be quickly relieved of anything of value that he possessed either on the ship, or within fifteen minutes after stepping foot onto the ground of whatever port of call the ship he was on sailed into.

Jon's best bet was to have communicated better with Lord Eddard. He should have either followed him to Kings Landing, or have had his pops arrange to have had him married to one of his Northern bannermens daughters. Anything would have been better than moping around Winterfell getting the evil eye from Catelyn all the time. But choosing a life in the Night's Watch was even more of a dumb decision than having to put up with her crap!

[The Fattest Leech]

Then we would have a very different story and one thing would lead to another for every character arc and this wouldn't be ASOIAF. The story is perfect the way it is. 

[devilish]

Jon Snow’s upbringing was ‘problematic’. Everyone knew that Ned loved him as a son. The boy was raised in Wintefell as one of Ned’s sons. That means that if someone got his hands on the boy then he would have had leverage on the Warden of the North. On the other hand because of Cat, he couldn’t be legitimised. That means that Jon couldn’t marry a noblewoman or become a ward of a prestigious house. 

In Essos Jon Snow would have been an easy target to anyone who either want to make a quick buck (ie take him hostage and push for a ransom) or who wants to do damage to the crown. If Jon ended up captive to Illyio or the GC then, as said, he would be used as leverage against his father or his half-brother.

The NW was a decent although cruel solution for the boy. Sure the Northmen rated the NW. However by the time of GOT all the prestige and military strength surrounding the NW was gone. It was a pack of rapists and criminals who envied Jon and would probably want him killed. One might say the same with Benjen. There again Benjen is a Stark. No crow would dare lifting a finger against a Stark considering that Winterfell is a spit away from the wall and the LC is a Mormont. 

. Legitimising him was a bit too far considering that Cat didn’t like that (and she seems related to half Westerosi nobility). On that particular regard I bet that she will find support from a certain Cersei who got a certain interest not to see bastards ending up with royal surnames especially with true born sons running around. Stating that, there are more elegant solutions to the Jon problem.

a-    Jon Snow could have been sent to an elite knight as a squire. Ned was Warden of the North and the king’s best mate. His wife was related to half Westerosi nobility and was desperate to see Jon leaving Winterfell for good. Surely there must be someone who is good with the sword and who was willing to go past the fact that Jon was a bastard. The great Barristan Selmy himself would probably go past that issue. Same can be said about Brynden Tully a rebel at heart whose quite good with the sword and who would probably not mind doing his niece this little favour 

b-    Once he gets knighted Jon could have easily found a job as a household knight. His father is warden of the North and hand of the king. His half-brother was heir to Winterfell, Hoster’s nephew, Robin’s cousin and the future queen’s brother.  Jon was good with the sword himself and would have become better under a decent tutor. For all we know Robb could have hired him especially after mummy dies. Same thing can be said about Sansa who would certainly want someone in the KG who understands her and is loyal to her more then to the king (Cersei had Jamie, Margaery had Loras etc)

c-    Alternatively he could have been sent to the citadel to become a maester. In time he might replace Maester Luwin in Winterfell. 

d- Cat could become a bit more mature and accept Jon as a potential loyal and valid subject to her son. In time he could develop into a Brandon Snow who served his half brother well. It wouldn't hurt if Ned leaves a sum of money and some lands to the boy just in case the Tully crazy poisons Robb against Jon. 
 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

19 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

what if jon had been sent to essos to live a little, instead of going and committing himself to a life of celibacy and unpleasant company on the wall?

Hopefully he comes back a little bit more like Oberyn Martell. 

[Graydon Hicks]

but would many in essos know jon is the bastard of winterfell? sure, many in the free cities, might, might, recognize that the surname snow meant he was a bastard of the north, but how many would know that much about eddard?

and sure, he would naive as a maid in essos, but maybe ned sends him with someone, like a manderly, who might know their way around braavos or pentos, and might have contacts that might be of use. it not like ned would just send him off with no support what so ever.

and sending jon to squire for some lord or knight that eddard trusts, yeah, that could have definitely happen. i even read a scenario where it did. very well done it was too. he even got married to a hornwood girl after he got knighted.

i dont see a future as a maester. jon just doesnt strike me as one to be overly inclined to the scholarly arts. the citadel is as much a calling as the NW is a punishment.

[kissdbyfire]

On 05/09/2017 at 7:12 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Then we would have a very different story and one thing would lead to another for every character arc and this wouldn't be ASOIAF. The story is perfect the way it is. 

Hear, hear! 

[Lifestream]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:02 PM, Romaine3 said:

Jon's decision to join the Night's Watch has always baffled me honestly. Didn't he know that one doesn't just sign up for a life at the Wall? It's certainly not a romantic place to live your life. All of the brothers are criminals of some sort, or disgraced noblemen seeking redemption. Plus, the vow of celibacy! I mean come on Jon! At 14 all I did was think about sex. At 35, I'm still the same way!

But Jon doesn't know that the Night's Watch is made up of criminals, cause Northmen (or at least WF) keep the NW in high regard. the rest of the Houses? not so, that's why it's filled with criminals. And that's exactly at the realization he comes when he first joins, that it's not made up of noble people who wish to serve a noble cause. it's the same with Sansa believing that reality is liked in the songs and stories.

Jon's uncle, Benjen, had decided to join NW and he was a noble man and a decent role model. So Jon's opinion of NW perhaps is based on his opinion of Benjen who decided to serve/protect the realm, noble cause no doubt. Jon is 14 of course he's naive. If people think that at 14 the person the want to bone is the love of their life and can't live without them, why is it had to understand that Jon viewed NW in a romantic view?

On 9/5/2017 at 2:02 PM, Romaine3 said:

Plus his family situation makes no sense. Eddard was such a good role model, but never notices that his wife treats Jon like he is less than dirt? He had to have noticed! Why didn't he put his foot down from the get go and let Catelyn know that Jon was important to him, and that if she didn't love the boy like the mother he needed, that he wouldn't tolerate it and send her packing. Nope! He allows her to openly resent Jon's existence.

Ned did something very unusual for every nobleman who fathers bastards, he brought Jon home. He insulted Catelyn's honor. And Catelyn is very honorable, perhaps she was the more honorable and dutiful maid in all the 7 Kingdoms in her time. Catelyn is pretty much acting like mom after her mom died, doesn't complain, excels at what she's supposed to know as a woman, betrothed to Brandom and she doesn't whine nor complain because she's aware it's her duty to her family and has accepted and WHEN Brandon dies, she's expected to marry his brother (whom she's never met) as tradition dictates and once more she doesn't complain. She was the perfect daughter, heck she was even prepared for bastards because that's how men(Lords) in Westeros are. She's S tier wife material right there and then Ned brings Jon to live among her children. Something that NO lord does to his wife because it's insulting.

 

Not only that, but some decades ago people had to deal with the Blackfyre Rebellion. So not only is she not getting perhaps the respect and treatment she deserves after working hard her whole life, her children are also in danger (in her mind) from a bastard who could challenge them.

 

Was that all? No, when Catelyn hears rumors regarding Ashara Dayne she decides to ask Ned herself and not only doesn't he answer he actually gets really angry. So what does this tell Catelyn about Jon's mother? Well that Ned must have loved her a lot to bring Jon here AND that he must still love her to have such a reaction. And the shadow of the woman Ned loved and had Jon with remains till they separate. And Jon is a constant reminder of that and a constant threat to Catelyn.

 

I won't argue that Catelyn was cold to him, cause she was and did seem to try to create distance between him and her kids in indirect ways, but those circumstances make it pretty difficult for Catelyn to warm up to him. Ned also seems to be aware how difficult it'd be FOR ANY woman (not only Catelyn) to be in such a situation and that's why he never forces her to be the mother Jon never had, because he knew how much he dishonored her in everyone's eyes by bringing Jon here. But at the same time he has a promise.

 

I personally would not want to be in a case such as Catelyn's where I do everything right without whining and complaining and then I get rewarded with dishonor or anything similar. I'd feel cheated out of what I really deserved to be honest. But Catelyn again, tried to suppress that around Ned and grew to love him but he couldn't unfortunately do the same in regards to Jon. And that is because the issue is unresolved essentially. That woman haunts Catelyn and Ned is not willing to discuss it with her or assure her, so it's natural it'll cause friction and problems in some sort of way.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

but would many in essos know jon is the bastard of winterfell? sure, many in the free cities, might, might, recognize that the surname snow meant he was a bastard of the north, but how many would know that much about eddard?

and sure, he would naive as a maid in essos, but maybe ned sends him with someone, like a manderly, who might know their way around braavos or pentos, and might have contacts that might be of use. it not like ned would just send him off with no support what so ever.

and sending jon to squire for some lord or knight that eddard trusts, yeah, that could have definitely happen. i even read a scenario where it did. very well done it was too. he even got married to a hornwood girl after he got knighted.

i dont see a future as a maester. jon just doesnt strike me as one to be overly inclined to the scholarly arts. the citadel is as much a calling as the NW is a punishment.

No, he wouldn't be known as Ned's bastard in Essos for the most part. 

Maybe he would found a sellsword company, or join the Company of the Rose. That would be interesting.