u.s. politics: a cruel and unusual government

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Thank you, that's what I get for googling and then just skimming to see if I remembered it right. Clearly I didn't.

No problem, it happens.

[drawkcabi]

SHAME!

 

 

A reminder of what a real president sounds like, it's been so long in Trump years it's heartrending to remember: 

 

 

[DMC]

Some interesting links this morning...

Democrats dread Hillary's book tour:

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For Clinton, it's not about the future of the Democratic Party. She's promoting the book because she doesn't think the story of 2016 has been told properly. People close to her believe there's still no closure from 2016, and that no one has offered a reliable autopsy.

Her inner circle — which has been slowly whittled down to longtime aides like Huma Abedin, Nick Merrill, Philippe Reines, Dan Schwerin and a few friends — is defiant.

 

Trump wants to kill the debt ceiling:

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President Trump floated the idea of scrapping the debt ceiling altogether in a Wednesday meeting with congressional leaders.

In the meeting, in which Trump acceded to Democratic demands for a short-term debt ceiling lift to be coupled with a three-month extension on government funding and Hurricane Harvey relief, the president said that debt ceiling votes were unproductive and that the next such vote could be the last.

 

Trump tells DACA recipients they "have nothing to worry about":

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The president’s comments, however, are unlikely to give comfort to DACA recipients who are worried what might happen to them after the program ends.

 

[Zorral]

Ta-Nehisi does it again; the orange demon does have an ideology, one that has been demonstrated from earliest times and which was his father's as well, and it is white supremacy:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/

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Trump truly is something new—the first president whose entire political existence hinges on the fact of a black president.

 

[denstorebog]

Trump is really playing with fire now. If working with Democrats over Republiicans really makes him upbeat enough that it is something we're going to see more of, he truly will Lose His Base™, and yes, I realize that has become something of a trope. But coverage of cooperation with Democrats will pierce the right-wing media bubble, it will bring down the wrath of Coulter, Jones, et. al., and it will make him completely useless to his own congressmembers. And at the same time he will never be able to buy himself enough love from any centrists there might be left in the country to offset the beating he's going to get.

You don't run on being an extremist just to start cooperating with the enemy.

[Maithanet]

Trump is right** that the debt ceiling is a stupid issue that costs political capital of whoever controls the government without actually accomplishing anything. If he actually abolishes the debt ceiling, I would totally laud him for it.  I don't think he will, and I'm not even sure he'll actually try.  We'll see.  

** I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever used this phrase.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Trump did not run on being an extremist.  Hillary ran on Trump being an extremist.

Eh, he pretty much did. He took many of the typical Conservative dogwhistles and broadcast them with a bullhorn. He may have defined this as being an "outsider", but I think many would define it as extremism, and correctly so. 

[DMC]

38 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Trump is really playing with fire now. If working with Democrats over Republiicans really makes him upbeat enough that it is something we're going to see more of, he truly will Lose His Base™, and yes, I realize that has become something of a trope.

Let's be real here, this kumbaya moment between Trump and Dem leaders has a half-life in the hours.  Even ignoring political realities, Trump's emotional volatility will surely take care of that.  However...

33 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Trump is right** that the debt ceiling is a stupid issue that costs political capital of whoever controls the government without actually accomplishing anything. If he actually abolishes the debt ceiling, I would totally laud him for it.  I don't think he will, and I'm not even sure he'll actually try.  We'll see.  

This maybe, could be, possibly have legs:

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Trump and Schumer discussed the idea Wednesday during an Oval Office meeting. The two, along with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.), agreed to work together over the next several months to try to finalize a plan, which would need to be approved by Congress.

One of the people familiar described it as a “gentlemen’s agreement.” [...]

Another person familiar with the meeting said Vice President Pence is open to changes he considers in line with the “Gephardt Rule” — a parliamentary rule making it easier to tie raising the debt ceiling with Congress passing a budget. The rule is named after former House majority leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.). [...]

House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) said at a news conference Thursday that he opposes scrapping the debt-limit process.

“I won’t get into a private conversation that we had [at the White House], but I think there’s a legitimate role for the power of the purse of the Article 1 powers, and that’s something we defend here in Congress.”

If Trump truly wants to scrap the debt ceiling - or return to the Gephardt Rule - I'm fine with that.  However, tactically the Dems should extract something out of it since they will be gifting Trump alleviation from quite a bit of headaches.  The obvious deal is for Trump to pressure enough GOP members to give a clean (and passing) vote on the DREAM Act.  I think that's more than fair.

[Zorral]

He ran on white supremacy, which maybe in the US of A isn't extreme at all, at least among the white voters who voted him in?

He is a white supremacist, he didn't even dog whistle half the time.  Like his daddy was, who marched with the KKK in his salad days -- and got arrested for the violence he was committing.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

A "Conservative Dogwhistle (TM)" is a secret code used by conservatives, that only a liberal can hear.

Y'know, it really isn't. If you look at it with a non-partisan eye, it becomes pretty transparent pretty quickly. I suppose it's fair to say that the term is overused by liberals, but if you're going to claim it doesn't exist, you're fooling yourself. 

[Week]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Y'know, it really isn't. If you look at it with a non-partisan eye, it becomes pretty transparent pretty quickly. I suppose it's fair to say that the term is over-used by liberals, but if you're going to claim it doesn't exist, you're fooling yourself. 

It's more about plausible deniability than any kind of sooper sekrit code. His Charlottesville responses were a great example where he was castigated by folks with a conscience and contextual awareness, lauded by white supremacists, and - key - excused by the Right who offered tepid responses to the language but remained in support.

It also goes back to the arguments over whether he should be taken literally or not -- where taken literally his comments are excused by supporters, but the impact and intent are more extreme. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

[LongRider]

He also called on a foreign government to act against his political rival, called for a "2nd amendment solution" against his political rival, harassed the press so much at his rallies that the crowd yelled at and harassed them as well. In fact one person from the press, Katy Tur, was escorted out by security for her own safety.  He also called his rivals in his party by degrading nicknames. This is not normal, its extreme. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Sorry mac.  I can read words.  But I can't read minds.  I just don't have the knack.  If you've got some subtle ability that I don't have, then more power to you.

You COULD be right, I suppose.  But I don't particularly like it when people pretend to read my mind, and ascribe uncharitable motivations to the things I never said.  So I make it my policy to try not to do that to other people.  Golden Rule, and all that.

You don't have to be a mind reader to pick up on much of this stuff. In fact, you have to be fairly obtuse to ignore it. 

[mormont]

5 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Sorry mac.  I can read words.  But I can't read minds.  I just don't have the knack.  If you've got some subtle ability that I don't have, then more power to you.

You COULD be right, I suppose.  But I don't particularly like it when people pretend to read my mind, and ascribe uncharitable motivations to the things I never said.  So I make it my policy to try not to do that to other people.  Golden Rule, and all that.

But... you did exactly that the last time I responded to one of your posts. You went off on one, going on about how because I was a mod I was 'signalling' that it was 'open season' on you simply by criticising you, accusing me of saying things I hadn't actually said, ascribing nasty motives to me and so on.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

You're not very specific about what "much of this stuff" is.  

Here's a quick spot of reading, if you're interested.

 http://billmoyers.com/content/six-case-studies-in-dog-whistle-politics/

 

/Some of the more obvious examples would be "welfare queen" or "Foodstamp President" .

[mormont]

8 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

You are pursuing a personal grudge from two threads back.  Please stop.

You're doing it again. Someone calls you out on an inconsistent position, and you hit the panic button and start accusing them of all sorts of outrageous things.

This isn't a personal grudge: how could it be? I have nothing against you personally whatsoever. I don't know you and don't care about you. I'm just pointing out that your claims here are untrue, at best. You made a claim about not believing that dog-whistling exists. But you absolutely do believe it exists, as your previous reaction shows.

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In the meantime, this "Reap As You So" stuff looks suspiciously like a signal to the group that the normal rules of courtesy do not apply. In other words, "Have at 'im boys and girls. I have decided he deserves it". Thanks, moderator.

What is this, but an accusation of dog-whistling?

[Bonnot OG]

DeVos is a scumbag. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On dog whistle politics, can some just post Lee Atwater’s infamous comment so we can put this debate to rest…..

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I merely took the position that I'm not going to pretend I hear things that, in fact, I cannot hear, merely because others claim to hear them.  

First, racial dog-whistling has been well-researched, and whether you hear it or not it has been demonstrated over and over to have an effect on voters.  Second, Trump's statements aren't even implicit racism - they're pretty damn explicit.  Here's a very easy to find list of Trump's crazy statements during the campaign.  I'll only quote the greatest hits that clearly indicate extremism and/or racism.  Please tell me which ones you "cannot hear."

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“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. … They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” 

“I’m talking about Mexico is forcing people in that they don’t want, and they want us to take care of those people.”

“You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever.”

“When these people walk in the room, they don’t say, ‘Oh, hello! How’s the weather? It’s so beautiful outside. Isn’t it lovely? How are the Yankees doing? Oh they’re doing wonderful. Great.’ They say, ‘We want deal!’” (Trump discussing Asians at an August 2015 rally in Iowa)

“Look at that face! Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?!”

“I believe in clean air. Immaculate air. … But I don’t believe in climate change.” 

“I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down. And I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. Thousands of people were cheering.” (Referring to Muslims celebrating on 9/11 at a rally in Birmingham, Alabama, Nov. 21, 2015)

“Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

“If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of ’em, would you? Seriously. OK? Just knock the hell—I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.” 

“I would bring back waterboarding. And I’d bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.”

“Part of the problem and part of the reason it takes so long [to kick out protesters] is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore.” 

“The answer is that there has to be some form of punishment.” (About whether women should be punished for having abortions if the procedure becomes illegal)

“Europe is a big place, I’m not going to take cards off the table.” (About using nuclear weapons in Europe on “The O’Reilly Factor,” March 31, 2016)

"We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country, and that’s what they’re doing.”

“Look at my African-American here!”

“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

“If you look at his wife, she was standing there, she had nothing to say. Probably maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say, you tell me, but plenty of people have written that. She was extremely quiet and it looked like she had nothing to say.” (Interview with ABC about Ghazala Khan, July 30, 2016)

“She’s the devil.”

“I’m afraid the election’s going to be rigged, I have to be honest.”

“Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, and if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people—maybe there is, I don’t know. But I’ll tell you what, that will be a horrible day.” 

“He is the founder of ISIS. He’s the founder of ISIS, OK? He’s the founder. He founded ISIS and I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hillary Clinton.” (Speaking about Barack Obama at a rally in Sunrise, Florida, August 10, 2016)

“I’ll answer that question [whether President Obama was born in the U.S.] at the right time. I just don’t want to answer it yet.”

“[Hillary Clinton] goes around with armed bodyguards like you have never seen before. I think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons. They should disarm. Right? Right? I think they should disarm immediately.”

“Hillary Clinton should have been prosecuted and should be in jail. Instead she is running for president in what looks like a rigged election”

“What I’m saying is that I will tell you at the time [whether I accept defeat in the election]. I'll keep you in suspense. OK?”

 

[mormont]

32 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Sorry, but that's not correct.  I make no claim that "dog whistling does not exist".  I merely took the position that I'm not going to pretend I hear things that, in fact, I cannot hear, merely because others claim to hear them.  

As for whether I misinterpreted what you said two threads ago.  Okay, maybe i did.  It's possible. 

Fair enough. But your claim not to be inclined to read minds etc, is not particularly tenable IMO. All human beings do that. Sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. Trump's behaviour as President so far suggests that anyone who saw extremist dog-whistles in his campaign speeches was reading them correctly. His past and present behaviour very strongly indicate racist beliefs.