One last big twist in Season 8?

[jcmontea]

30 minutes ago, InspironQ said:

Interesting, this Tyrion betrayal. It would really hurt but I also think it would make perfect sense and probably the best bit of character development in these recent seasons. Tyrion for all his maltreatment at his father's and sister's hands has still sought their acceptance. Maybe he truly believed in Dany initially (and probably still does to some extent) or maybe she was just another person he could hitch on to so he could wield some sort of power - he did confess how much he liked being hand to Joffrey. However, he might also be convinced that his new position will finally give him the respect and acceptance even from his family (Cersei in particular). He is a Lannister after all and family for them is everything. I wonder what Varys' role in all this is.

Yea. Maybe they are setting up a betrayal of Tyrion/ Varys to Jon when his parentage is revealed, Jon abandons Dany because of the Tarley burning and Dany loses it and turns into a full on Rhaenerya figure who grows super paranoid does crazy stuff and loses more and more power the more vicious and hardline she becomes and the message of the story is power does bad things to people and it does even worse things to women. 

If i am being honest, they seeded enough where something like that wouldn’t be out of left field. 

if you were trying to write a caricature of GoT/ ASOIAF and turn into it a full on nihilistic piece of crap, that would be a good way to do it. 

[Guest TheRealKingInTheNorth]

I really don't see Jon betraying Dany much less being interested in ruling. The worst I think that could happen between them (assuming Dany is not with Jon's baby) is that he dumps her because of his Targaryen heritage and if maybe Dany continues to be impulsive in burning people. Also believe it's too late for Dany to go full on crazy. As terrible as a piece of storytelling that would be, I think the creators lost the marbles for something like that seasons ago.

[jcmontea]

7 minutes ago, InspironQ said:

I really don't see Jon betraying Dany much less being interested in ruling. The worst I think that could happen between them (assuming Dany is not with Jon's baby) is that he dumps her because of his Targaryen heritage and if maybe Dany continues to be impulsive in burning people. Also believe it's too late for Dany to go full on crazy. As terrible as a piece of storytelling that would be, I think the creators lost the marbles for something like that seasons ago.

I hope your right and if i had to bet would say this scenario is unikely. I really don’t want this thing to descened into a nihilistic caricature of itself. 

[Faera]

So, the twists we've had so far that GRRM presumably gave to D&D that they could reveal were: "Hold the door!" (aka, It's all Bran's fault!), and the burning of Shireen, right? Seems to reason that the last big twist will relate to a big mystery that is in both the book and show. The only things I can think of are:

- Why did the Others come back now? What are they after?

- What did the voice in the flames say to Varys?

- Who or what is sending the visions in Mel's flames?

- How is Sam still fat after all this time?

[jcmontea]

27 minutes ago, Faera said:

So, the twists we've had so far that GRRM presumably gave to D&D that they could reveal were: R+L=J, "Hold the door!" (aka, It's all Bran's fault!), and the burning of Shireen, right? It is also possible that the Others' creation by the CotF is one, too, though I guess that could be book only. Seems to reason that the last big twist will relate to a big mystery that is in both the book and show. The only things I can think of are:

- Why did the Others come back now? What are they after?

- What did the voice in the flames say to Varys?

- Who or what is sending the visions in Mel's flames?

- How is Sam still fat after all this time?

Are you sure it was three big twists vs three big things? 

I understood that it was Shireen, Hodor and the ending. 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I understood that it was Shireen, Hodor and the ending. 

I don't know, I was just guessing.

What you said is probably more accurate.

[jcmontea]

On 9/29/2017 at 9:11 AM, Faera said:

I don't know, I was just guessing.

What you said is probably more accurate.

Nope. You were right. 

http://ew.com/article/2016/05/24/george-rr-martin-3-twists-game-thrones/

three shocking twists. The third one comes at the end but is not the ending. 

At this point my money would be on it having to do with how Cersei/ Jaime die but who knows. Even though Valonqar was heavily predicted, so was Shireen’s death so it being a popular theory would not seem to disqualify it.

[MinscS2]

Cersei blows up KL, possibly with herself and Jamie still in it.

[jcmontea]

24 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Cersei blows up KL, possibly with herself and Jamie still in it.

KL or at least the Red Keep does seem fairly doomed. Something has to cave in that roof. 

Although poor Jaime in that scenario. Guy has had some of the biggest failures in this show:

- captured in season 1

- inadvertently gets his old man killed in season 4

- can’t save his daughter in season 5

- gets kicked out of the KG and can’t save his son in season 6 

- sets up an armistace which his sister uses as a forum to backstab the living without him knowing about it 

i guess would be in character for him to go out like that

[MinscS2]

Don't forget the worst part of all: Saving almost one million people and almost no one knows about it. Talk about being an unsung hero.

But yeah, at the very least the Red Keep needs to go. The Iron Throne is not only a symbol of the "wheel" and destruction, but how are Jon and Dany supposed to co-rule when there's only one throne? 

[of man and wolf]

On 9/9/2017 at 1:55 AM, MrJay said:

But before that? This means that his entire plan rested on Daeny having baby dragons and then choosing to come and offer one up to him on a silly suicide mission.

Basically, unless there was some other way he had in mind, this guy basically predicted the future. And if he can predict the future, what hope do the good guys even have?

That's why he's Bran.

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Don't forget the worst part of all: Saving almost one million people and almost no one knows about it. Talk about being an unsung hero.

But yeah, at the very least the Red Keep needs to go. The Iron Throne is not only a symbol of the "wheel" and destruction, but how are Jon and Dany supposed to co-rule when there's only one throne? 

True. That is probably the best inference as to why the Iron Throne won’t be there in the end.

[Faera]

14 hours ago, jcmontea said:

True. That is probably the best inference as to why the Iron Throne won’t be there in the end.

Well, Dany as good as saw that the Red Keep is destroyed. Bran also saw a dragon flying over King's Landing, which still could be Viserion. I know it wasn't snowing in the vision but it wouldn't be the first time they retconned a vision. It could even be that Cersei does indeed use wildfire but it is ineffective against the Night's King and the Others.

Anyway, not too sure whether that would be a twist. Cersei has already used wildfire once, so stands to reason she'd do it again. Who actually kills Cersei might be it but they didn't really do the "little brother" thing in the show... though I guess it wouldn't take much to establish and resolve it in S8.

I still lean towards the question "what do the Others want/why come back now?" might be the last twist. There are plenty of theories floating around about that already as to why they're back, so it would answer a burning question, especially if it's unexpected. 

[jcmontea]

8 minutes ago, Faera said:

Well, Dany as good as saw that the Red Keep is destroyed. Bran also saw a dragon flying over King's Landing, which still could be Viserion. I know it wasn't snowing in the vision but it wouldn't be the first time they retconned a vision. It could even be that Cersei does indeed use wildfire but it is ineffective against the Night's King and the Others.

Anyway, not too sure whether that would be a twist. Cersei has already used wildfire once, so stands to reason she'd do it again. Who actually kills Cersei might be it but they didn't really do the "little brother" thing in the show... though I guess it wouldn't take much to establish and resolve it in S8.

I still lean towards the question "what do the Others want/why come back now?" might be the last twist. There are plenty of theories floating around about that already as to why they're back, so it would answer a burning question, especially if it's unexpected. 

That could be why they did not include the Valonqar in the show. In order not to telegraph it too much. Because of that line most book readers already suspect Jaime. Would prob still be a massive twist for most show watchers to have Jaime kill Cersei and Cersei kill him.  

But who knows really. Could very well be Other related as your suggesting. 

Whatever it is its going to be tragic though given its on the same level as shireen dying and Hodor. 

[Faera]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Whatever it is its going to be tragic though given its on the same level as shireen dying and Hodor. 

3

That's what has stumped me! Both of those things were gut-wrenching to watch. However, the implication has been that they might play out differently in the books than the show. Shireen's death is almost certainly going to happen a little differently due to her location in proximity to her father. I also question whether "Hold the door!" will happen to the same way, or whether it'll even happen at Bloodraven's cave. So, the big twist we are yet to see might not necessarily be exactly the same scenario. Jaime killing Cersei would be a shock for show-watchers, though, not for book readers. Maybe the circumstances will be vastly different for that reason.

(If Jaime kills Cersei, I bet everyone will be bracing themselves to see if he pulls off his face and reveals himself to be Arya).

Personally, I'm surprised Cersei has lasted as long as she has in the show given the state of affairs in the books for. Though must be said, book-Cersei and show-Cersei are infamously different from one another in a lot of regards.

[falcotron]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

Personally, I'm surprised Cersei has lasted as long as she has in the show given the state of affairs in the books for. Though must be said, book-Cersei and show-Cersei are infamously different from one another in a lot of regards.

After both stories are done, and the two Cerseis meet up in the afterlife, it'll probably go something like this:

• show!Cersei: Ah, my illustrious counterpart. You know, maybe if you hadn't become such a lush, you would have survived a lot longer.
• book!Cersei: Fat lot of good it did you. You still lost all your children. And your kingdom. And got killed by Jaime. Our Jaime.
• show!Cersei: So? An extra two years of life is nothing to sneeze at. Did you see when I got to put down that dragon queen, right to her face? And kill those Dornish bitches? You didn't get to do anything nearly that satisfying, did you?
• book!Cersei: True. But if I'd been a man, then they would have let me. It's not fair!
• show!Cersei: But I'm not a man either, so how does—I mean—wait a second, you're not just a drunk, you're nutso too?
• book!Cersei: You're part of the plot against me! Just like Daven and Kevan and Tygett and…
• show!Cersei: Who are all those people? Our dad just had one brother and one nephew, and that's our entire family tree.
• book!Cersei: Sure, that's what they want you to think. Just like they don't want you to know about Loras's and Margy's two brothers, or their Redwyne and Fossoway uncles. It's all a conspiracy. Wake up, sheeple! The Great Sept was an inside job!
• show!Cersei: Uh, yeah, I know, I did it.
• book!Cersei: Oh, that's the so-called official story, if you're dumb enough to believe it. You probably think the world is round, and Essos actually exists rather than being an invention of the cartographers.
• show!Cersei: Yikes. This conversation isn't as much fun as I expected. I'm going to go back to the fiery hellpits to be tortured now.

 

[jcmontea]

4 hours ago, falcotron said:

After both stories are done, and the two Cerseis meet up in the afterlife, it'll probably go something like this:

• show!Cersei: Ah, my illustrious counterpart. You know, maybe if you hadn't become such a lush, you would have survived a lot longer.
• book!Cersei: Fat lot of good it did you. You still lost all your children. And your kingdom. And got killed by Jaime. Our Jaime.
• show!Cersei: So? An extra two years of life is nothing to sneeze at. Did you see when I got to put down that dragon queen, right to her face? And kill those Dornish bitches? You didn't get to do anything nearly that satisfying, did you?
• book!Cersei: True. But if I'd been a man, then they would have let me. It's not fair!
• show!Cersei: But I'm not a man either, so how does—I mean—wait a second, you're not just a drunk, you're nutso too?
• book!Cersei: You're part of the plot against me! Just like Daven and Kevan and Tygett and…
• show!Cersei: Who are all those people? Our dad just had one brother and one nephew, and that's our entire family tree.
• book!Cersei: Sure, that's what they want you to think. Just like they don't want you to know about Loras's and Margy's two brothers, or their Redwyne and Fossoway uncles. It's all a conspiracy. Wake up, sheeple! The Great Sept was an inside job!
• show!Cersei: Uh, yeah, I know, I did it.
• book!Cersei: Oh, that's the so-called official story, if you're dumb enough to believe it. You probably think the world is round, and Essos actually exists rather than being an invention of the cartographers.
• show!Cersei: Yikes. This conversation isn't as much fun as I expected. I'm going to go back to the fiery hellpits to be tortured now.

 

lol. although I think we overestimate how much Cersei is a goner in the books because of where the story ends. At the end of season 5 Cersei looked like a goner as well and lo and behold she is still there chugging. Could easily happen in the books as well we just have no idea at this point. Everyone seems to think Aegon is going to kick her out of King's Landing which could happen. But who is to say Cersei doesn't try and take advantage of the Others Invasion to retake KL. We just don't know at this point. 

I think the twist will be Cersei commits suicide but takes Jaime with her in a double murder suicide. 

That ending just feels right to me for a few reasons: 

1.) it would be a great twist at the end which fits with what D&D said. 

2.) it fulfills Magi the Frog prophecy because Cersei will make the decision when "when [her] tears have drowned [her]" and then [the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you] 

3.) it closes the parallel between how her children died and how their killers died. Olena killed Joffrey with poison. She dies of poison. Elaria killed Mycella, Cersei kills Tyenne. Tommen committed suicide because of Cersei so Cersei will commit suicide. 

4.) was potentially foreshadowed 

"jaime and I are more than brother and sister. we shared a womb. we came into this world together, we belong together" - 1x07

They came into this world together and they will leave this world together. 

"we've always been together. We'll always be together. We're the only two people in the world" - 6x06

Always be together even in death. 

”in the armys of the woman i love” “she want the same thing” - 5x04 

Yup. She will want the exact same thing by the end. 

“She’ll be the end of you” 7x03

Yup. She will literally be the end of you as you kill each other. 

"She's a disease. I regret my role in spreading it. You will too." 7x03

Maybe Jaime will be even happy to go or ok with it if it means he can take her out as by the end he will have so profoundly regretted his role in spreading the Cersei disease. 

Which raises the question what does Cersei do to get Jaime to that point? Is it burning down King's Landing? Is it killing Daenerys who Tyrion claims "If [she] die we're all lost. Everyone, everything" 

Who knows. I doubt its killing Dany (her being core 5). But by the end Jaime will probably be willing to sacrifice himself if it means getting rid of Cersei. 

 

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Maybe Jaime will be even happy to go or ok with it if it means he can take her out as by the end he will have so profoundly regretted his role in spreading the Cersei disease.

I suspect Jaime's going to survive. GRRM likes to repeat the same plot but have it means something completely different this time. And Jaime becoming the kingslayer again is the best opportunity in the story to do that. It's about doing the right thing this time, instead of balancing one oath against another. He'll be looking to Tyrion and Brienne to judge him, rather than Tywin and Cersei who are only ever going to judge him on his usefulness to the family. He won't get to keep his position of honor and then whine that he doesn't get the respect that should go with it. And so on.

It seems like the perfect way to finish his arc (which seems to finally be back on track after two and a half seasons of going in circles).

Whereas Jaime dying with Cersei, even if it does have more foreshadowing, doesn't seem as powerful. Sure, there's a reason the evil sidekick redeeming himself and then heroically dying is a trope, because there's a lot of variation to milk out of it. But the twisted repetition of Jaime in throne room standing over Aerys's/Cersei's corpse waiting for Ned/Jon to hand things over to and just the look in his eyes being enough for us to see how different it is this time, I think that's a better ending to a better story.

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Which raises the question what does Cersei do to get Jaime to that point? Is it burning down King's Landing?

I was thinking she just blows up the Red Keep, and he stops her before she can blow up the whole city.

[jcmontea]

31 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I suspect Jaime's going to survive. GRRM likes to repeat the same plot but have it means something completely different this time. And Jaime becoming the kingslayer again is the best opportunity in the story to do that. It's about doing the right thing this time, instead of balancing one oath against another. He'll be looking to Tyrion and Brienne to judge him, rather than Tywin and Cersei who are only ever going to judge him on his usefulness to the family. He won't get to keep his position of honor and then whine that he doesn't get the respect that should go with it. And so on.

It seems like the perfect way to finish his arc (which seems to finally be back on track after two and a half seasons of going in circles).

Whereas Jaime dying with Cersei, even if it does have more foreshadowing, doesn't seem as powerful. Sure, there's a reason the evil sidekick redeeming himself and then heroically dying is a trope, because there's a lot of variation to milk out of it. But the twisted repetition of Jaime in throne room standing over Aerys's/Cersei's corpse waiting for Ned/Jon to hand things over to and just the look in his eyes being enough for us to see how different it is this time, I think that's a better ending to a better story.

That certainly makes sense and would be a very heroic and stirring end for Jaime's arc. The only reason why I am not completely onboard with the idea is because I have all this potential foreshadowing going through my head regarding them dying together. But that is just availability bias. 

Quote

I was thinking she just blows up the Red Keep, and he stops her before she can blow up the whole city.

Yea. That feels appropriate. The only thing that makes me hesitant on this one is that it feels a tad repetitive with Cersei having already blown up the Sept but nothing says they can't go to that well again. 

[MrJay]

Am I the only one who didn't feel anything when Hodor died?

I get why it's tragic. I feel that Bran was kind of a jerk for what he did and I feel for the man in that regard, bit the whole "Hold the Door = Hodor" thing struck me as funny. Yes I laughed.