Food and Drink in ASOIF

[lwhitehead]

I just wonder since is based on War of the Roses were are the sources for Food and Drink in ASOIF setting?,

 

 

LW

[Deepbollywood Motte]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_cuisine

[falcotron]

I have no idea how much research GRRM did, and how much was just him winging it, but I think he (successfully) intending to give an overall impression of food that's plausibly medieval, and much more similar to 15th century England than to modern England, but not at all identical to 15th century England, while also being varied enough that he can use it to make points about the differences between noble and smallfolk food, or even to set things up thematically with, e.g., literal bread and salt to make us think of guest right.

But I'd bet that leaving out potatoes and other new world crops is something he did deliberately, because of all the people talking about the potatoes in LotR. So his equally-anachronistic hot peppers are probably also deliberate, maybe to remind us that Westeros is a big continent rather than just an island hanging off the coast of Europe. But things like nobody in even the wine-producing regions using verjuice for preservation or sauces? No idea whether that's a deliberate difference or an oversight.

By the way, the wiki has an article on food that attempts to list all the food and drinks mentioned in the series.

The most striking thing to me is how little he describes the variations in (and complex uses of) cheeses. That was a big deal in the 15th century, and it's just as big a deal today, but in Westeros, it's apparently all just cheese. I'm sure someone could build a tinfoil theory out of that, but my guess is that GRRM just isn't a cheese aficionado.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

8 hours ago, falcotron said:

But I'd bet that leaving out potatoes and other new world crops is something he did deliberately, because of all the people talking about the potatoes in LotR. So his equally-anachronistic hot peppers are probably also deliberate, maybe to remind us that Westeros is a big continent rather than just an island hanging off the coast of Europe. But things like nobody in even the wine-producing regions using verjuice for preservation or sauces? No idea whether that's a deliberate difference or an oversight.

...

The most striking thing to me is how little he describes the variations in (and complex uses of) cheeses. That was a big deal in the 15th century, and it's just as big a deal today, but in Westeros, it's apparently all just cheese. I'm sure someone could build a tinfoil theory out of that, but my guess is that GRRM just isn't a cheese aficionado.

There are actually quite a few new world crops available in Westeros: sweetcorn, blueberries, peanuts, pecans, sunflowers and various gourds including melons come up, as well as the peppers you mentioned. Of course, some of these could be different plants with the same name.

As for cheese, at least once there is a choice of two kinds!

Quote

Littlefinger: "Our guests will be cold and thirsty after their long climb. You are to meet them when they arrive, and offer them refreshment. Wine, bread, and cheese. What sort of cheese is left to us?"
'Alayne': "The sharp white and the stinky blue."

I looked into it some more and there is also mention of "veined white cheese", another "veined with wine", a "yellow cheese", goat cheese, soft cheese and hard cheese. Nothing about where the cheese actually comes from, though, which is how it's normally identified in Europe, at least. There doesn't seem to be a lot of that in Westeros, though - considering the size of Dorne, you'd think people might be more specific than just saying "Dornish" when referring to their wine.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

As for cheese, at least once there is a choice of two kinds!

I looked into it some more and there is also mention of "veined white cheese", another "veined with wine", a "yellow cheese", goat cheese, soft cheese and hard cheese. Nothing about where the cheese actually comes from, though, which is how it's normally identified in Europe, at least. There doesn't seem to be a lot of that in Westeros, though - considering the size of Dorne, you'd think people might be more specific than just saying "Dornish" when referring to their wine.

Someone asked GRRM (or at least reported to have done so in some way that apparently wasn't verifiable enough to become an SSM, unless I'm just failing to find it) why a continent the size of Westeros would have only two kinds of wine and two kinds of cheese, to which GRRM replied "There's actually three kinds of wine". So, even though he was obviously joking, it's nice to know there are actually more than two kinds of cheese.

(And there are more than three wines, too. It's a little weird that every region or country besides the Reach produces exactly one wine, but the range—everything from thick, inky blue to pale green—is still pretty impressive.)

Meanwhile, according to a German friend who's insisting I type this, naming cheese after its place of origin is not a European thing, it's a Roman thing that non-Romance cultures have only picked up recently, which is why you can't guess most German PDO cheeses' designated origin from the names, like Handkäse from southern Hesse or Hirtenkäse from Allgäu. Also, Limburger is stupid because it's not made in Limburg, but the related cheese Herve is.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

6 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Meanwhile, according to a German friend who's insisting I type this, naming cheese after its place of origin is not a European thing, it's a Roman thing that non-Romance cultures have only picked up recently, which is why you can't guess most German PDO cheeses' designated origin from the names, like Handkäse from southern Hesse or Hirtenkäse from Allgäu. Also, Limburger is stupid because it's not made in Limburg, but the related cheese Herve is.

Well I shouldn't have said "how it's normally identified in Europe" in that it might not apply to the majority of places, but it most certainly is how it works in many parts of Europe, including places that don't speak Romance languages (where it's not always a recent idea - cheddar has been called cheddar for hundreds of years, for example).

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I looked into it some more and there is also mention of "veined white cheese", another "veined with wine", a "yellow cheese", goat cheese, soft cheese and hard cheese.

I think the cheese is used symbolically quite a bit. In addition to the variations you list, there are also wheels of cheese that seem to be important. It might symbolize the catching of a rat or mouse, as Olenna Tyrell insists on serving cheese when she is questioning Sansa about Joffrey's character and Tyrion serves it when questioning Janos Slynt about killing Robert's bastards (iirc).

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Well I shouldn't have said "how it's normally identified in Europe" in that it might not apply to the majority of places, but it most certainly is how it works in many parts of Europe, including places that don't speak Romance languages (where it's not always a recent idea - cheddar has been called cheddar for hundreds of years, for example).

Well, England got their cheesemaking traditions at least as much from the French as from the Saxons. For cheddar specifically, there aren't any records before the 12th century, but there are two local legendary origins. The first is that William the Conqueror specifically chartered the original Cheddar dairy in 1066 because apparently he somehow knew they'd make something so amazing that it was almost his first priority upon conquering England. The less fanciful one is that it's an obvious adaptation of Cantal cheese, which was probably brought to Somerset by the Romans. Either way, a Romance-style naming convention makes sense.

But yeah, I think my friend was overstating things. There are plenty of Romance cheeses named descriptively (brocciu means ewe's milk), and German cheeses named for location (Tilsiter means from Tilsit, which goes back to the 16h century, even if most of it is now made in Emmental). Also, after a few minutes of research: Limburger is made just over the German border from Limburg, and Herve is made in Herve, which is no closer to Limburg than the Bad Aachen dairies, so it's not all that stupid after all. Also, it's tasty even if it is stupid. Also, now I really want some cheese, and the only thing I have in my fridge is generic yellow processed cheese food product that a houseguest left behind, because my German friend ate all the gouda.

[Nihlus]

The roasted puppy on a stick sounds like delectable cuisine from Slaver's Bay, that place of well thought out worldbuilding.

[Falcon2909]

2 hours ago, Nihlus said:

The roasted puppy on a stick sounds like delectable cuisine from Slaver's Bay, that place of well thought out worldbuilding.

Don't forget the delicious honeyed locusts! 

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, Nihlus said:

The roasted puppy on a stick sounds like delectable cuisine from Slaver's Bay, that place of well thought out worldbuilding.

I think puppy on a stick is just wrong. I mean from a culinary point of view.

I don't actually know much about dog meat, but I do know that dogs aren't ranch livestock. There's a reason we have words for the meat of baby cows and sheep—because veal and lamb are more tender and flavorful than beef and mutton. But we don't have words for the baby meat from game animals like deer or rabbits, or birds like chickens, or anything else but the species we've domesticated as livestock for thousands of years, because it's just less meat and harder to get at, without being any better. So, I'll bet the same is true for dogs. it just seems like a waste.

And before you start talking about the importance of presentation on palate, and how you can't fit a whole dog on a stick unless it's a puppy—what else are toy breeds for?

And now that half the forum hates me…

38 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Don't forget the delicious honeyed locusts! 

That one is a lot less fanciful. Puppy-eating is usually a baseless racist slur aimed at foreigners or hillbillies all over the world, but locust-eating is… well, it's still often a racist slur (ask an Iranian friend what "malakh khor" means), but it's not a baseless one.

Lots of people eat locusts, and lots of neighbors are disgusted by it. A Roman stationed in North Africa recorded that he learned from the Berbers that eating locusts is a fun way to gross out Carthaginians. And they're kosher, and not meat according to Judaism and Christianity (handy for old-school Catholics on Fridays, and for ascetics on vegetarian fasts like John the Baptist), and halal according to Islam, so if you ever need to gross out a Carthaginian, go for it.

[Falcon2909]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

That one is a lot less fanciful. Puppy-eating is usually a baseless racist slur aimed at foreigners or hillbillies all over the world, but locust-eating is… well, it's still often a racist slur (ask an Iranian friend what "malakh khor" means), but it's not a baseless one.

 

I don't see whats racist about it in ASOIAF.

[falcotron]

11 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

I don't see whats racist about it in ASOIAF.

I don't think GRRM is being racist. He's an American, writing for the English-speaking market. Nobody uses "locust eater" as a slur in English; the only Americans who ever think about locust eating are religious people who know the story of John the Baptist by heart. So for him, and his readers, the fact that lots of cultures eat locusts and lots of other cultures are grossed out about it isn't a value judgment, it's just a realistic way to mark that Ghiscari culture is alien to Free Cities culture. (And I guess the fact that Dany sees it as different and unappetizing but doesn't think any racist thoughts is to her credit, but it's not that big a deal.)

Puppies on a stick is a bit over the top, and I guess there are some Americans who call foreigners dog eaters as an ethnic slur, but I doubt he meant it that way. When he wants us to see Ghiscari culture as negative, he's a lot less subtle about it—the place is called "Slaver's Bay", after all. I think he was just going over the top with the differences, because this is a fantasy world. The horse people literally eat stallion hearts for strength, the hairy sailors are literally a different hominid species, why shouldn't the locust eaters also be puppy eaters?

[White Ravens]

6 hours ago, Nihlus said:

The roasted puppy on a stick sounds like delectable cuisine from Slaver's Bay, that place of well thought out worldbuilding.

That's roasted unborn puppy on a stick.    It is intended to be highly repugnant.

Quote

Kraznys mo Nakloz  -

I will feed her jellied dog brains, and a fine rich stew of red octopus and unborn puppy.

1

I think the unborn puppies on a stick are mentioned in the Strong Belwas / honeyed locusts scene.

 

 

[Ser Petyr Parker]

In the real world you have cultures where (some) people like to try and cook fish while keeping them alive even to the plate, because they believe it tastes a bit better, and others where people (supposedly) ensure they kill animals in painful ways for the same reason. Even foie gras has a cartoonish evilness to it. Although "unborn puppy on a stick" sounds over the top, plenty of real things do too.