(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

[SirArthur]

37 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

She was trying to set up a siege of KL all season it just kept getting interupted. 

This is a myth. She wasn't. She was going for Casterly Rock. She did not even clear Blackwater Bay. If she would have gone Stannis approach Euron would not have come through or would have had to break through. Don't make things up when the show clearly shows how to attack KL from Dragonstone.

[jcmontea]

6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

This is a myth. She wasn't. She was going for Casterly Rock. She did not even clear Blackwater Bay. If she would have gone Stannis approach Euron would not have come through or would have had to break through. Don't make things up when the show clearly shows how to attack KL from Dragonstone.

Don’t say I am making stuff up. 

Watch the damm show and actually listen to what people say. That is clearly the plan. It is said on multiple occasions. If you can’t hear watch it with subtitles or read a transcript. 

whether they do it competently or whether the show explains the finer points of it is a seperate question. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

For example if Dany actually has those numbers and 2 dragons then it means that by moving the Dothraki to the North, they have parity or even greater force than the Army of the Dead (assuming that Dany's estimate of a 100,000 or so is correct and all there is). But that doesn't make the Army of the Dead seem so terrifying as everyone is saying.

This would seem to make this supposedly apocalyptic threat that has been building since 1x01 and has inspired writings, religions and prophecies even in another continent rather manageable. But I'm not sure if that was the message that they even intended to give.

Have you watched The Walking Dead? There was a scene in that show, when group of MC came into prison, and freed people that haven't fought yet with the zombies. So when those prisoners were attacked by zombies, they started to beat them in the same manner, as they usually do it with living humans. And it looked laughable, and totally innefective. Zombies don't feel pain, and even very serious injuries won't cause them to become weaker or slower. The same thing applyes to the Undead Army of NK.

Dothraki are a good wariors, and prominent fighters. But it's totally different to fight against opponent that is already dead. For good warriors fighting is reflective, i.e. they are trained to aim to injure their opponents in vital areas, such as heart, liver, head, or cut/injure weaponwielding hands. But in a fight against dead enemy, that sort of fighting is inefective. So it will be hard for Dothraki (or anyone else) to break their usual pattern/style of fighting. And it takes time to get used to fight against totally diffrent sort of opponents. Jon became more adapt, and more efective, in fighting against the Dead, because he faced them several times, and already uploaded into his mind, style of fighting effective against them.

Now imagine - Dothraki warrior is fighting against several zombies, he struck one of them in the heart, then he cut off a hand of another one, and third one he cut in half. Nevertheless they are still coming at him. What will be natural reaction of that Dothraki? - He will freeze. His mind is in a state of shock. He's thinking - 'what's wrong? why my attacks aren't effective?' And then he will 'remember' that he's fighting against those that are not humans anymore, that usual style of fighting won't be effective against this opponents. He will freeze only for a few seconds. But when he will emerge out of his tiny shock, it will be already too late - in those few seconds they killed him. Add one more fighter in the Army of the Dead.

The Dead don't fight like humans, they fight like rabid animals on crack. So their 100,000 army can kill millions of living, and they won't even get tired.

[Hajk1984]

57 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Have they said she has less than 100k Dothraki? I just always had 100k in my head but now not sure if its from the history and lore from season 6 or whether that was clear in the show. Even if its 100k v 100k i still think the AOTD is huge because a.) their army gets stronger with death so as the living army dwindles theirs goes up and b.) if you don’t kill the NK and every white walker than just one of them can break off and easily raise up another army and the living can’t 

I think that figure is from season 6 (I don't remember it being mentioned this season). Hence questions regarding how many ships etc. and logistics of feeding such an army, its horses and so become relevant (and what about families? Dothraki will have women and children, so I may assume upto 250,000 even or what?). Did she just leave Daario with his Sellsword company to control three cities at substantial distance. That ought to work out great (again, they jumped over how the insanely complex situation in Meereen was to be solved; Daenerys and her followers spent years fixing it, yet now suddenly Daario can do it and allow the people to "choose their own leader" as if introducing democracy is so simple... but explained if we just assume D&D now needed to get her out of there and get her to Westeros because that's where they needed to pieces to be in season 7).

If the numbers are 100k vs. 100k (more actually since the living have 2 dragons, and the Vale+North--which Jon put on a full-time conscription military setting demanding that everyone 10-60, male or female, train to fight) then Cersei's decision starts looking downright rational. If Dany and the North can already assemble a matching force, and the North is at war with Cersei after that war, and the North is now a part of Dany's kingdom, what incentive does she really have to agree to a truce? The threat isn't as apocalyptic as Jon is making it out to be with these numbers, it seems to me. The North is the most vulnerable, but that is now mainly Dany's concern. And the living have interesting advantages now too. They can fight with long range weapons (arrows etc., with the Dothraki being good archers as we saw) which the dead have not been shown capable of. These arrows can have both dragonglass tips or fire. They can also use pitch and wildfire etc. None of this intelligent fighting with such weapons has been shown by the AotD, which seems to rely on attacking directly and its enemies not having the weapons needed to kill its zombies. I doubt that any Dothraki should fall without taking a few of the dead with him. That's why the war doesn't seem that significant with these numbers.

[Hajk1984]

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Have you watched The Walking Dead? There was a scene in that show, when group of MC came into prison, and freed people that haven't fought yet with the zombies. So when those prisoners were attacked by zombies, they started to beat them in the same manner, as they usually do it with living humans. And it looked laughable, and totally innefective. Zombies don't feel pain, and even very serious injuries won't cause them to become weaker or slower. The same thing applyes to the Undead Army of NK.

Dothraki are a good wariors, and prominent fighters. But it's totally different to fight against opponent that is already dead. For good warriors fighting is reflective, i.e. they are trained to aim to injure their opponents in vital areas, such as heart, liver, head, or cut/injure weaponwielding hands. But in a fight against dead enemy, that sort of fighting is inefective. So it will be hard for Dothraki (or anyone else) to break their usual pattern/style of fighting. And it takes time to get used to fight against totally diffrent sort of opponents. Jon became more adapt, and more efective, in fighting against the Dead, because he faced them several times, and already uploaded into his mind, style of fighting effective against them.

Now imagine - Dothraki warrior is fighting against several zombies, he struck one of them in the heart, then he cut off a hand of another one, and third one he cut in half. Nevertheless they are still coming at him. What will be natural reaction of that Dothraki? - He will freeze. His mind is in a state of shock. He's thinking - 'what's wrong? why my attacks aren't effective?' And then he will 'remember' that he's fighting against those that are not humans anymore, that usual style of fighting won't be effective against this opponents. He will freeze only for a few seconds. But when he will emerge out of his tiny shock, it will be already too late - in those few seconds they killed him. Add one more fighter in the Army of the Dead.

The Dead don't fight like humans, they fight like rabid animals on crack. So their 100,000 army can kill millions of living, and they won't even get tired.

I haven't watched the Walking Dead. However, this threat would be immense if Jon and co. hadn't spent several seasons discovering exactly what weapons to use against the dead. Now they know that dragonglass and fire work, that direct fighting in the normal way doesn't and so on. Arming the Dothraki with the appropriate weapons (e.g. dragonglass arrows, daggers etc.) should make them effective. Only extraordinary incompetence in telling their soldiers what to do would give us this result. Moreover, Dragonstone provided a huge amount of dragonglass (as Jon said initially, "all we'll need" in 7x04).

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

This is a myth. She wasn't.

She was. This (read parts in bold), it's from Episode 2:

Spoiler

YARA: If you want the Iron Throne, take it. We have an army, a fleet, and three dragons. We should hit King's Landing now. Hard. With everything we have. The city will fall within a day.

TYRION: If we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die in the firestorms.

ELLARIA looks at TYRION with disgust.

ELLARIA: It's called war. You don't have the stomach for it, scurry back into hiding.

TYRION: I know how you wage war. We don't poison little girls here. Myrcella was innocent.

ELLARIA: She was a Lannister. There are no innocent Lannisters. My greatest regret is that Oberyn died fighting for you.

DAENERYS: That's enough. Tyrion is the Hand of the Queen. You will treat him with respect.

DAENERYS pauses for a moment.

DAENERYS: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.

OLENNA addresses DAENERYS from across the table.

OLENNA: That's very nice to hear. Of course, I can't remember a queen who was better loved than my grand daughter. The common people loved her, the nobles loved her. And what is left of her now? Ashes. Commoners, nobles, they're all just children really. They won't obey you unless they fear you.

DAENERYS: I'm grateful to you, Lady Olenna, for your council. I'm grateful to all of you. But you have chosen to follow me. I will not attack King's Landing. We will not attack King's Landing.

OLEANNA: Then how do you mean to take the Iron Throne? By asking nicely?

DAENERYS: We will lay siege to the capital surrounding the city on all sides. Cersei will have the Iron Throne but no food for her army or the people.

TYRION: But we won't use Dothraki and Unsullied.

TYRION begins walking around the carved table of Westeros.

TYRION: Cersei will try to rally the lords of Westeros by appealing to their loyalty, their love for their country. If we besiege the city with foreigners, we prove her point. Our army should be Westerosi.

ELLIA: And I suppose we're providing the Westerosi?

TYRION: You are.

TYRION reaches down and picks up a figurine that resembles a Kraken in a longship.

TYRION: Lady Greyjoy will escort you home to Sunspear and her Iron Fleet will ferry the Dornish army back up to King's Landing.

TYRION walks to the south of the map and picks up a figurine that resembles a sun. He takes both figurines and places them at King's Landing.

TYRION: The Dornish will lay siege to the capital alongside the Tyrell army. Two great kingdoms united against Cersei.

OLENNA: So, your master plan is to use our armies? Forgive me for asking, but why did you bother to bring your own?

TYRION reaches down and picks up the figurine resembling an Unsullied helmet. He begins walking back around the map of Westeros.

TYRION: The unsullied will have another objective. For decades House Lannister has been the true power in Westeros. And the seat of that power is Casterly Rock. Grey Worm and the Unsullied will sail for the Rock and take it.

TYRION stops in front of Casterly Rock. There is a figurine that resembles a lion. He knocks the lion over with the Unsullied figurine. Everyone in the room nods in agreement.

DAENERYS: Do I have your support?

YARA: You have mine.

ELLIA: Dorne is with you, Your Grace.

Lady Olenna nods her head in agreement.

There was no point to start a siege, as long as part of Lannister forces was behind their back, in Westerlands/Casterly Rock, and was able to attack them, and to trap them against walls of King's Landing. So first they went to eliminate CR, and then they were going to surround KL. And Sand sailed to Dorne to bring their troops for this siege.

[Megorova]

41 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

I haven't watched the Walking Dead. However, this threat would be immense if Jon and co. hadn't spent several seasons discovering exactly what weapons to use against the dead. Now they know that dragonglass and fire work, that direct fighting in the normal way doesn't and so on. Arming the Dothraki with the appropriate weapons (e.g. dragonglass arrows, daggers etc.) should make them effective. Only extraordinary incompetence in telling their soldiers what to do would give us this result. Moreover, Dragonstone provided a huge amount of dragonglass (as Jon said initially, "all we'll need" in 7x04).

People tend to fight with weapons that they are used to. Even the Hound, first fought with a hammer (others with swords), and then he saw that this weapon isn't effective, and switched to dragonglass dagger. Problem with those daggers, that they are short.

Also Dothraki are more used to weapons like sabres, or whatever those swords are called. So they would still use them in a fight against the Dead. Daggers alone won't be effective. They are a close range weapon, much closer range than Dothraki swords, or weapons that the Dead use.

39 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

(and what about families? Dothraki will have women and children, so I may assume upto 250,000 even or what?).

You think she moved all of them?

Doesn't look like it. As fas as I remeber, is that Dany took from Vaes Dothrak only warriors, while women, children and elderly were left behind.

They are not going to settle in Westeros, they went there only to aid Dany in conquiring 7K.

43 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Did she just leave Daario with his Sellsword company to control three cities at substantial distance. That ought to work out great (again, they jumped over how the insanely complex situation in Meereen was to be solved; Daenerys and her followers spent years fixing it, yet now suddenly Daario can do it and allow the people to "choose their own leader" as if introducing democracy is so simple... but explained if we just assume D&D now needed to get her out of there and get her to Westeros because that's where they needed to pieces to be in season 7).

More like Dany herself never wanted to be Queen in Essos, she always wanted to get back to Westeros. So Meereen and its people, and others from Essos, to her became an unneeded baggage. Thus she just left them all behind, to their own devices, to deal with their own problems, and moved on.

[jcmontea]

26 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

I think that figure is from season 6 (I don't remember it being mentioned this season). Hence questions regarding how many ships etc. and logistics of feeding such an army, its horses and so become relevant (and what about families? Dothraki will have women and children, so I may assume upto 250,000 even or what?). Did she just leave Daario with his Sellsword company to control three cities at substantial distance. That ought to work out great (again, they jumped over how the insanely complex situation in Meereen was to be solved; Daenerys and her followers spent years fixing it, yet now suddenly Daario can do it and allow the people to "choose their own leader" as if introducing democracy is so simple... but explained if we just assume D&D now needed to get her out of there and get her to Westeros because that's where they needed to pieces to be in season 7).

If the numbers are 100k vs. 100k (more actually since the living have 2 dragons, and the Vale+North--which Jon put on a full-time conscription military setting demanding that everyone 10-60, male or female, train to fight) then Cersei's decision starts looking downright rational. If Dany and the North can already assemble a matching force, and the North is at war with Cersei after that war, and the North is now a part of Dany's kingdom, what incentive does she really have to agree to a truce? The threat isn't as apocalyptic as Jon is making it out to be with these numbers, it seems to me. The North is the most vulnerable, but that is now mainly Dany's concern. And the living have interesting advantages now too. They can fight with long range weapons (arrows etc., with the Dothraki being good archers as we saw) which the dead have not been shown capable of. These arrows can have both dragonglass tips or fire. They can also use pitch and wildfire etc. None of this intelligent fighting with such weapons has been shown by the AotD, which seems to rely on attacking directly and its enemies not having the weapons needed to kill its zombies. I doubt that any Dothraki should fall without taking a few of the dead with him. That's why the war doesn't seem that significant with these numbers.

My interpretation was that Cersei def made a rational decision. An immoral one, but certainly a rational one since her decision maximizes the chances she holds on to power. 

Had she trully agreed to fight with Dany and Jon her chances of remaining Queen would be a lot less than under her current path.

Of course her current path also increases the chance the dead win but she doesn’t care about that. 

Again, i think the power of the dead is not their numbers its their ability to regenerate. There could be a massive fight in Winterfell next year that the living win after sufferring massive casualties in episode 3. 

But if the NK gets away and heads south he will have a much bigger army in no time and then the living would be at a massive disadvantage for a climatic battle in episode 5. 

[Hajk1984]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

YARA: If you want the Iron Throne, take it. We have an army, a fleet, and three dragons. We should hit King's Landing now. Hard. With everything we have. The city will fall within a day.

TYRION: If we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die in the firestorms.

ELLARIA looks at TYRION with disgust.

ELLARIA: It's called war. You don't have the stomach for it, scurry back into hiding.

TYRION: I know how you wage war. We don't poison little girls here. Myrcella was innocent.

ELLARIA: She was a Lannister. There are no innocent Lannisters. My greatest regret is that Oberyn died fighting for you.

DAENERYS: That's enough. Tyrion is the Hand of the Queen. You will treat him with respect.

DAENERYS pauses for a moment.

DAENERYS: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.

OLENNA addresses DAENERYS from across the table.

OLENNA: That's very nice to hear. Of course, I can't remember a queen who was better loved than my grand daughter. The common people loved her, the nobles loved her. And what is left of her now? Ashes. Commoners, nobles, they're all just children really. They won't obey you unless they fear you.

DAENERYS: I'm grateful to you, Lady Olenna, for your council. I'm grateful to all of you. But you have chosen to follow me. I will not attack King's Landing. We will not attack King's Landing.

OLEANNA: Then how do you mean to take the Iron Throne? By asking nicely?

DAENERYS: We will lay siege to the capital surrounding the city on all sides. Cersei will have the Iron Throne but no food for her army or the people.

TYRION: But we won't use Dothraki and Unsullied.

TYRION begins walking around the carved table of Westeros.

TYRION: Cersei will try to rally the lords of Westeros by appealing to their loyalty, their love for their country. If we besiege the city with foreigners, we prove her point. Our army should be Westerosi.

ELLIA: And I suppose we're providing the Westerosi?

TYRION: You are.

TYRION reaches down and picks up a figurine that resembles a Kraken in a longship.

TYRION: Lady Greyjoy will escort you home to Sunspear and her Iron Fleet will ferry the Dornish army back up to King's Landing.

TYRION walks to the south of the map and picks up a figurine that resembles a sun. He takes both figurines and places them at King's Landing.

TYRION: The Dornish will lay siege to the capital alongside the Tyrell army. Two great kingdoms united against Cersei.

OLENNA: So, your master plan is to use our armies? Forgive me for asking, but why did you bother to bring your own?

TYRION reaches down and picks up the figurine resembling an Unsullied helmet. He begins walking back around the map of Westeros.

TYRION: The unsullied will have another objective. For decades House Lannister has been the true power in Westeros. And the seat of that power is Casterly Rock. Grey Worm and the Unsullied will sail for the Rock and take it.

TYRION stops in front of Casterly Rock. There is a figurine that resembles a lion. He knocks the lion over with the Unsullied figurine. Everyone in the room nods in agreement.

DAENERYS: Do I have your support?

YARA: You have mine.

ELLIA: Dorne is with you, Your Grace.

Lady Olenna nods her head in agreement.

There was no point to star a siege, as long as part of Lannister forces was behind their back, in Westerlands/Casterly Rock, and was able to attack them, and to trap them against walls of King's Landing. So first they went to eliminate CR, and then they were going to surrpond KL. And Sand saild to Dorne to bring their troops for this siege.

And yet in 7x07 Cersei (pretend) issues a command to "call the banners, all of them", so apparently the Lannisters haven't even bothered to do that yet. Back in season 1 that was one of the first steps that Robb took when going to war.

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

And yet in 7x07 Cersei (pretend) issues a command to "call the banners, all of them", so apparently the Lannisters haven't even bothered to do that yet. Back in season 1 that was one of the first steps that Robb took when going to war.

Lol. No idea what that meant. Only thing that would even make sense is either that just meant the remaining Lannister forces in the Riverlands and what survived the field of fire or Cersei was just talking some bs to make it seem like she was doing something. 

[Hajk1984]

2 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

My interpretation was that Cersei def made a rational decision. An immoral one, but certainly a rational one since her decision maximizes the chances she holds on to power. 

Had she trully agreed to fight with Dany and Jon her chances of remaining Queen would be a lot less than under her current path.

Of course her current path also increases the chance the dead win but she doesn’t care about that. 

Is it even immoral? One country is clearly at war with mine and now they (as the North is now part of Dany's dominion) are facing a roughly equal enemy on their other border. What motivation do I really have (even morally) to go and defend their country when they won't even guarantee me a peace  and security of my borders following this battle? The chances for the dead are not looking that great if the living have parity in numbers as well as intelligence (that the dead have shown very little evidence of), and the weaponry to fight them. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if the NK is defeated by 8x02 or 8x03 (Jon may have a badass fight scene and deliver a final blow to the NK).

 

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

People tend to fight with weapons that they are used to. Even the Hound, first fought with a hammer (others with swords), and then he saw that this weapon isn't effective, and switched to dragonglass dagger. Problem with those daggers, that they are short.

Also Dothraki are more used to weapons like sabres, or whatever those swords are called. So they would still use them in a fight against the Dead. Daggers alone won't be effective. They are a close range weapon, much closer range than Dothraki swords, or weapons that the Dead use.

There are arrows and flaming arrow etc too. And the Dothraki use daggers as well. Remember the daggers Drogo was carrying (and dropped when fighting that dude for Dany's honor). One can also make spears with such tips for the Unsullied and so on. Given their prowess, if they really have equal numbers with the dead, I don't see them being overwhelmed by the AotD. For that I'd need the dead to have a huge numerical advantage.

[Hajk1984]

3 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol. No idea what that meant. Only thing that would even make sense is either that just meant the remaining Lannister forces in the Riverlands and what survived the field of fire or Cersei was just talking some bs to make it seem like she was doing something. 

Yeah, but the BS idea didn't make sense as Jaime etc. took it seriously when that happened and even Dany and Jon seemed to have the look one would expect if it was something momentous. And Lannister forces in the RL etc. are already banners that have been called. They are stationed at that place for now. That was one of the reasons I asked which lands are controlled by which party. Because it sounded like she was issuing a call for something major when she did that, not something that would only raise a few thousand forces. That could make sense if it was a royal command to all the lords who has pledged themselves to the Iron Throne to call their banners. In which case it would make much sense and seem like a huge contribution depending on which lands the Iron Throne currently controlled. 

[jcmontea]

2 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Is it even immoral? One country is clearly at war with mine and now they (as the North is now part of Dany's dominion) are facing a roughly equal enemy on their other border. What motivation do I really have (even morally) to go and defend their country when they won't even guarantee me a peace  and security of my borders following this battle? The chances for the dead are not looking that great if the living have parity in numbers as well as intelligence (that the dead have shown very little evidence of), and the weaponry to fight them. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if the NK is defeated by 8x02 or 8x03 (Jon may have a badass fight scene and deliver a final blow to the NK).

I think your not factoring in the ability of the dead to grow their numbers as part of their advantage. That is huge. In a normal fight where there is parity both armies get whittled down. In this fight one gets whittled down and the other grows bigger. Huge difference. 

You can make that argument. There is no clear right answer since its inherently a values judgement. Really depends on how much value you place on the survival of the human race versus the ability of a ruler to hold on to power. If you value the first more highly than its immoral. If you don’t value the first and value the second only than its not. 

 

[jcmontea]

2 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yeah, but the BS idea didn't make sense as Jaime etc. took it seriously when that happened and even Dany and Jon seemed to have the look one would expect if it was something momentous. And Lannister forces in the RL etc. are already banners that have been called. They are stationed at that place for now. That was one of the reasons I asked which lands are controlled by which party. Because it sounded like she was issuing a call for something major when she did that, not something that would only raise a few thousand forces. That could make sense if it was a royal command to all the lords who has pledged themselves to the Iron Throne to call their banners. In which case it would make much sense and seem like a huge contribution depending on which lands the Iron Throne currently controlled. 

It makes no sense that its a new army though. Since she would have called it already. Unless she didn’t because of dragons. But then we are getting to far afield.

Simpler is better with this show and the simplest explanation is it just meant their remaining forces. 

[Hajk1984]

6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think your not factoring in the ability of the dead to grow their numbers as part of their advantage. That is huge. In a normal fight where there is parity both armies get whittled down. In this fight one gets whittled down and the other grows bigger. Huge difference. 

You can make that argument. There is no clear right answer since its inherently a values judgement. Really depends on how much value you place on the survival of the human race versus the ability of a ruler to hold on to power. If you value the first more highly than its immoral. If you don’t value the first and value the second only than its not. 

 

The dead only increase their number with those they kill. In which case I think each Dothraki and Unsullied should be able to take a few before falling. Of course if the NK can start raising the dead from centuries ago who have been buried but not burned then that may give him the sort of massive numerical advantage he needs. I just feel he needs a bigger force. Millions seems more appropriate.

I don't think there is such a serious threat to the human race based on what they've shown. Cersei knows they have dragons that can burn wights by the thousands and parity in numbers. So numbers parity and superior WMDs. I don't know if immorality would apply here. Certainly Jaime's reaction seems overblown. 

[Hajk1984]

9 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

It makes no sense that its a new army though. Since she would have called it already. Unless she didn’t because of dragons. But then we are getting to far afield.

Simpler is better with this show and the simplest explanation is it just meant their remaining forces. 

I think the simplest here is that D&D needed certain pieces in place so they put them there. But there is so much ambiguity at this point that what happens in season 8 (in terms of threat, numbers etc.) is something they can easily play around with.

Their remaining forces would not be much if Tyrion's initial estimate of 10,000 was correct (in fact it isn't clear why it matters at all given that even Royce in the North controls 2,000 soldiers. Seems like a minor number for the crown, and rather small for the Lannister army. But I will interpret the numbers as flexible. They wanted to get Dany and her forces (whatever numbers they want to give them) up in the North and Cersei and the Golden Company in the South to set up two conflicts, so that is what they accomplished.

[SirArthur]

45 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There was no point to start a siege, as long as part of Lannister forces was behind their back, in Westerlands/Casterly Rock,

Oh lord. So she holds back the Dothraki because they cannot siege and then there is no point is a siege because an army is in her back. 

a ) This problem didn't matter when the Unsullied attacked the Rock, although it was to be expected that an army in their back would beat them. Riverrun style.

b ) But suddenly when the Unsullied should besiege KL and the Dothraki are actually there to beat a relief army, the argument comes up.

This makes no sense. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

And yet in 7x07 Cersei (pretend) issues a command to "call the banners, all of them"

That was a lie! She just put a show for J&D Co. She didn't called anyone, furthermore there was no one to call. In episode 2 (or was it 1?), Jaime said to her as much - we have no allies.

1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

There are arrows and flaming arrow etc too.

Fire don't kill them instantly.

Quote

One can also make spears with such tips for the Unsullied and so on.

Spears are good to fight against WW, but not against wights.

Wights attack en masse, i.e. many at once. If 3-5 of them will attack one person, then while their opponent will strike one of them with a spear, when he will be pulling out his spear (out of flesh and bones, because untike WW, wights don't shatter appart, at least those that are not bones alone), others will be already closer than the spearhead. So one of them he will stab with a dagger, but others will already be close enough to gnaw at his throat.

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Given their prowess, if they really have equal numbers with the dead, I don't see them being overwhelmed by the AotD. For that I'd need the dead to have a huge numerical advantage.

They move faster, they attack so viciously, that people won't be able to hold off against them for long. Watch this videos carefully, pay attention to the way wights attack.

Watch this one from 4:45 to 5:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLkWW1XQClM

And this one from 1:15 (the guy with a dragonglass spear was grabbet at 2:10 and killed at 2:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3UpBKOhE4

Spear turned out to be the least effective weapon, to fight against many wights at once.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

Millions seems more appropriate.

I don't think there is such a serious threat to the human race based on what they've shown.

What about Ice Dragon? Did you forgot about it? It breathes 'winter magic', not fire.

In 5 minutes it can turn population of entire city into wights.

It's a Flying Death. Biological weapon of mass destruction.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Oh lord. So she holds back the Dothraki because they cannot siege and then there is no point is a siege because an army is in her back. 

a ) This problem didn't matter when the Unsullied attacked the Rock, although it was to be expected that an army in their back would beat them. Riverrun style.

b ) But suddenly when the Unsullied should besiege KL and the Dothraki are actually there to beat a relief army, the argument comes up.

This makes no sense. 

Again.

Dany wanted troops from Dorne and The Reach to siege KL. She didn't wanted to use barbarian army for this. She needed Westerosi warriors (this also is writen in that script in previous post). here it is again:

"TYRION: Cersei will try to rally the lords of Westeros by appealing to their loyalty, their love for their country. If we besiege the city with foreigners, we prove her point. Our army should be Westerosi.

ELLIA: And I suppose we're providing the Westerosi?

TYRION: You are."

Thus Dany has sent Olenna to The Reach to bring Tyrells forces, and Sand Mom back to Dorne by seas, to bring her troops by Yara's fleet.

Those two armies wasn't able to prepare a siege, as long as there were still Lannisters behind their back, in Casterly Rock. Thus first Dany needed to remove them from there.

She planned to eliminate Casterly Rock, and only after that to start a siege of King's Landing, surround the city with armies from Dorne and The Reach.

But Cersei killed off Olenna, and Sands, and she also brought Lannisters forces from Casterly Rock to King's Landing.

Now, when there's no more enemies that can come up to their back, Dany can siege the city. But now she doesn't have any other armies aside from her barbarians.

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a ) This problem didn't matter when the Unsullied attacked the Rock, although it was to be expected that an army in their back would beat them. Riverrun style.

Unsullied attacked Casterly Rock from the sea's side. King's Landing was in front of them. Also they were going to retreat back thru sea, by using their fleet. As long as they had those ships they were able to escape, in case if Lannisters from King's Landing would've sent reinforcements to Casterly Rock.

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b ) But suddenly when the Unsullied should besiege KL and the Dothraki are actually there to beat a relief army, the argument comes up.

Situation changed entirely.

Dany's original plan became impossible. She had no more Westerosian armies at her disposal. She had left only barbarians. So she had no other option aside from using them.

[Count Balerion]

4 hours ago, Jabul said:

Yeah, that appears to be the case. I can click on the URL and get to the original post. However, when I go to the listing, I see my topic on a pink background, and there is one of those circles with an exclamation point in it. 

I should have waited longer before posting the URL on this thread. Sorry about that. 

It's OK; we'll read it after it gets approved.