(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

[MrJay]

46 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Your assunption is that they could defeat Highgarden without the Lannister forces at Casterly Rock. You also at the same time say that castles are incredible fortifications and super difficult to overcome. 

Isn’t that a bit contradictory? Your superior strategy is to attack a very difficult to overcome fortification with a lot less men than they attacked it with? If castles are truly as impregnable as you say, doesn’t it make sense to go with everything you have so you can ensure your odds of success? Especially in a must win mission? 

Highgarden stupidly faught them in the open. Not sure why. 

And if they didn't, and that siege lasted only a couple days, then the show is even worse than I thought. 

Highgarden happened the way it did not because of any internal consistency or logic. It happened cause the show was through with Olena and wanted her gone quickly. 

[jcmontea]

56 minutes ago, MrJay said:

Highgarden stupidly faught them in the open. Not sure why. 

And if they didn't, and that siege lasted only a couple days, then the show is even worse than I thought. 

Highgarden happened the way it did not because of any internal consistency or logic. It happened cause the show was through with Olena and wanted her gone quickly. 

That is all beside the point.

your argument was that castles are impregnable but despite that the lannister tarly forces should have attacked a castle with less men. 

whether they fought them in the open or the siege lasted a mere few days does not really change the fact that your saying they should have gone with less men. 

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, MrJay said:

Cersei is "losing" because of more idiocy. Not because of her many legit failings. It's kinda sad when you think on it. She has done so much to earn herself a loss and a beheading, and they pull some asinine stuff for her to lose? It's... I don't even have the word for it. It's like watching a hacker break into a network, leave their name, address and contact list behind with video evidence of their face, only to have some rookie cop crack the case because he had a hunch and went for a stroll one day and caught the hacker bragging. It's mind boggling. 

Do you realize what it would take for that counter attack to happen? 

 

- Daeny marshaling all her forces onto ships. Or ferrying them little by little... 

- Into enemy controlled land without anyone seeing who can sound an alarm... 

- knowing exactly where the lannister army was before even the first Dothraki started riding 

- No scouts at all along the way 

- and them not expecting to be attacked while moving. 

My head hurts just thinking on it. Everyone in westeros must be at least 90 iq points lower than any living human for this stuff to fly. It all works if we are told they are imbeciles, and it would surprisingly explain how they can be stuck in feudalism for thousands of years when we left that crap behind in less than 500.

This just sounds like your shifting the point away from the original comment you made that the show presented Cersei’s move as a great win when it really just set her up for a counter attack that would have ended the war but for the intervention of the war in the north. 

As for whether the counter attack itself was possible, yea it probably does not stand up to rigorous logistical scrutiny how it could have been pulled off. Just like it probably does not make sense how Arya could have baked those frey pies in the kitchen of the twins and a whole host of other shit that heppens on the show off stage. The show def takes some liberties with what it does off stage and hopes people either don’t think too much about it or if they do its sufficently within the realm of possible/ plausible to just go with it. 

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, MrJay said:

Cersei is "losing" because of more idiocy. Not because of her many legit failings. It's kinda sad when you think on it. She has done so much to earn herself a loss and a beheading, and they pull some asinine stuff for her to lose? It's... I don't even have the word for it. It's like watching a hacker break into a network, leave their name, address and contact list behind with video evidence of their face, only to have some rookie cop crack the case because he had a hunch and went for a stroll one day and caught the hacker bragging. It's mind boggling. 

Do you realize what it would take for that counter attack to happen? 

 

- Daeny marshaling all her forces onto ships. Or ferrying them little by little... 

- Into enemy controlled land without anyone seeing who can sound an alarm... 

- knowing exactly where the lannister army was before even the first Dothraki started riding 

- No scouts at all along the way 

- and them not expecting to be attacked while moving. 

My head hurts just thinking on it. Everyone in westeros must be at least 90 iq points lower than any living human for this stuff to fly. It all works if we are told they are imbeciles, and it would surprisingly explain how they can be stuck in feudalism for thousands of years when we left that crap behind in less than 500.

And no she is not losing because of mere idiocy. She is losing because she has a shit hand and doesn’t really have any good options available to her. She racked up one win by pure luck - attacking the iron born fleet - and racked up another at the cost of leaving her army vulnerable out on the field. She gambled that she could get the gold and get the Iron Bank on her side and the gamble would have failed had it not been for the white walkers making moves up north. Cersei had no good options and like most humans without good options she tried to swing for the fences and take on lots of risk in the hopes that the gamble could pay off. 

[The Golden Wolf]

I think that the one huge thing that can be taken away from the war between Cersie and Dany is that this is what you get when the vast majority of seasoned commanders have died off. There are no generals of note left outside of Randyll Tarly really. 

Dany was screwed extremely hard when Ser Barristan "TMB" Selmy got shanked in an alley in Mereen leaving her with only Tyrion...whose military career is in no way on the same level as Ser Barristan's. 

The main reason Cersie is winning even though she had a shitty had to begin with is that in reality Dany has a huge lack of experience in actual warfare on her side. Sure she has the Dothraki but the Dothraki mainly only fight other Khalasaars or people who have no chance against them. if not for the dragon that wagon train battle would not have been so one sided. 

[jcmontea]

8 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

I think that the one huge thing that can be taken away from the war between Cersie and Dany is that this is what you get when the vast majority of seasoned commanders have died off. There are no generals of note left outside of Randyll Tarly really. 

Dany was screwed extremely hard when Ser Barristan "TMB" Selmy got shanked in an alley in Mereen leaving her with only Tyrion...whose military career is in no way on the same level as Ser Barristan's. 

The main reason Cersie is winning even though she had a shitty had to begin with is that in reality Dany has a huge lack of experience in actual warfare on her side. Sure she has the Dothraki but the Dothraki mainly only fight other Khalasaars or people who have no chance against them. if not for the dragon that wagon train battle would not have been so one sided. 

I agree about no Barry. Huge loss.

But Jaime Lannister would disagree with you regarding the Dothraki. It clearly would not have been as one sided without Drogon because Drogon is Drogon. But the Dothraki would have probably still salughtered them. Or at least that is what the show wants you to believe given Robert’s quotes in Season 1 and Jaime’s quotes about how the Dothraki would beat any army he has ever seen. Whether they actually showed this versus just saying it is an open question.

[MrJay]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

That is all beside the point.

your argument was that castles are impregnable but despite that the lannister tarly forces should have attacked a castle with less men. 

whether they fought them in the open or the siege lasted a mere few days does not really change the fact that your saying they should have gone with less men. 

I see what you mean. I was working within the story I was given. That's why I said that. 

If I could do the plot from scratch, I would never have sent any soldiers there cause a siege of any size would be a waste of effort when you're fighting a full scale war against an outsider. 

What they should have done is sack the sorroundings towns and left it at that. Let the Tyrrell forces come out and fight, or be cut off from Daeny with a sort of blockade. 

The fact of the matter is this whole war is such a big mess that it has layers and layers of idiocy that needs to be dealt with and would need to be redone from the start. From the moment Daeny landed on dragon stone with over 100k mouths to feed and the desire to do anything but sneak some unsullied into the red keep and end this,  things went south. 

Like really. Those tunnels exist. She has the man who knows them well and it's clear that you can still sneak around. What's stopping sir twenty of house Goodmen form creeping in there? The whole thing is a mess. That's Daenys go too move and it would make sense that she would do exactly what she has done for a while. Lord knows the unsullied probably do covert sneak missions better than full on battle since that's what they have done several times now. 

They even did it for casterly rock. So why not the red keep?

I would have to rewrite this from episode 1 to have it make sense. There is no saving this wars logic. All I was doing was explaining one aspect of its absurdity. 

 

Quote

I think that the one huge thing that can be taken away from the war between Cersie and Dany is that this is what you get when the vast majority of seasoned commanders have died off. There are no generals of note left outside of Randyll Tarly really.

I said as much on another site.

The story makes more sense if you imagine everyone is an idiot

It was a joke, but the thinking behind it was real. If you imagine that such knowledge and tactics is something few of the nobility has, it all makes sense. We have two people that have no business conducting warfare going at it. And while Olenna is a great schemer, she is no general. So... 

- Daeny not understanding that the entire city isn't one big castle and she can attack it without much casualties makes sense. 

- Cersei thinking it's a bright idea to abandon a stronghold makes sense. 

-  Grey worm thinking that casterly rock is useless and he must return a failure makes sense. 

- Olenna deciding to take her weak (and she admits they suck) troops outside to fight an actual commander with better soldiers, makes sense. 

- Daeny somehow missing an entire fleet sail by her  twice. Makes sense. 

I'm not even trying to be a smart Alec. It really does make the season better. 

[jcmontea]

4 hours ago, MrJay said:

I see what you mean. I was working within the story I was given. That's why I said that. 

If I could do the plot from scratch, I would never have sent any soldiers there cause a siege of any size would be a waste of effort when you're fighting a full scale war against an outsider. 

What they should have done is sack the sorroundings towns and left it at that. Let the Tyrrell forces come out and fight, or be cut off from Daeny with a sort of blockade. 

The fact of the matter is this whole war is such a big mess that it has layers and layers of idiocy that needs to be dealt with and would need to be redone from the start. From the moment Daeny landed on dragon stone with over 100k mouths to feed and the desire to do anything but sneak some unsullied into the red keep and end this,  things went south. 

Like really. Those tunnels exist. She has the man who knows them well and it's clear that you can still sneak around. What's stopping sir twenty of house Goodmen form creeping in there? The whole thing is a mess. That's Daenys go too move and it would make sense that she would do exactly what she has done for a while. Lord knows the unsullied probably do covert sneak missions better than full on battle since that's what they have done several times now. 

They even did it for casterly rock. So why not the red keep?

I would have to rewrite this from episode 1 to have it make sense. There is no saving this wars logic. All I was doing was explaining one aspect of its absurdity. 

 

I said as much on another site.

The story makes more sense if you imagine everyone is an idiot

It was a joke, but the thinking behind it was real. If you imagine that such knowledge and tactics is something few of the nobility has, it all makes sense. We have two people that have no business conducting warfare going at it. And while Olenna is a great schemer, she is no general. So... 

- Daeny not understanding that the entire city isn't one big castle and she can attack it without much casualties makes sense. 

- Cersei thinking it's a bright idea to abandon a stronghold makes sense. 

-  Grey worm thinking that casterly rock is useless and he must return a failure makes sense. 

- Olenna deciding to take her weak (and she admits they suck) troops outside to fight an actual commander with better soldiers, makes sense. 

- Daeny somehow missing an entire fleet sail by her  twice. Makes sense. 

I'm not even trying to be a smart Alec. It really does make the season better. 

Your assuming those tunnels are unguarded. Is that a reasonable assumption at this point? Unlikely. 

You also assume for some reason that they can take the city with minimal casulties instead of having the whole thing descend into brutal urban warfare. Dany has never taken a city like that. In Yunkai the slave soldiers rebelled and in Mereen the slaves also rebelled. KL has a professional security service in the gold cloaks not to mention how many ever Lannister soldiers are augmenting them.  

If your concern is trully to minimize civilian casulities, I don’t think an attack on KL is how you go about it. 

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

The show made it clear that a small force can defend a castle.

Good example (FROM THE BOOKS) is this:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Siege_of_Storm's_End

Lannisters used the same tactic as was used by GRRM in Robert's Rebellion, during siege of Storm's End.

1.1. In the books - "the Tyrell host advanced directly on Storm's End, laying siege to it. The castle's granaries and storehouses were only half-full, as war had been unexpected."

1.2. In the show - They emptied storages of Casterly Rock, gathered from farms and fields all crops, on the way from Casterly Rock to Highgarden, and from Highgarden to King's Landing, and emptied all granaries on their way.

2.1. In the books - "Lord Paxter Redwyne took the Redwyne fleet of the Arbor and closed Shipbreaker Bay to all trade, essentially cutting Storm's End off."

2.2. In the show - Euron's fleet cut off access to the sea.

Essentially 1.2. + 2.2. = 1.1. + 2.1. SAME THING.

So without food in it, the castle is not a fortress, it's just a stone grave, for whoever is trying to hold it.

Cersei didn't sieged Unsullied in Casterly Rock, but she took away food from there, and everywhere around it, and she cut them off from their retreat path thru the sea. So even though they weren't locked in Casterly Rock, and could go anywhere from there, they were still basically in the same position, as was Stannis and his people, during siege of Storm's End. The only difference between them, is that Stannis' people couldn't go out of their castle, to get any food for themselves. While Unsullied could go out, but there was NO FOOD anywhere close to them.

They didn't died from starvation, because people can last without food for at least three weeks. And they are not an average people, they are Unsullied, a killing machines, used to fighting and marching in desert conditions. So Dany had enough time to send to them provision for their march across Westeros, to King's Landing, or back to Dragonstone.

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, MrJay said:

Let's take the sewers out of play (since the Lannisters probably were unaware).

I'm 100% sure that Cersei knew. And Tywin knew. And people in general knew. Only Tyrion himself was still in delusion, that he had a 'secret' tunnel under CR.

Tyrion isn't as smart, as he thinks he is. He's a drunkard, and a debauchee, and he hates his family. So it's very likely that during one of his drinking parties with Lannister soldiers, or servants, or with hookers, he drunkenly blabbed that he tricked Tywin Lannister, and build secret passage under Casterly Rock, right under Tywin's nose. When he was drunk, and not thinking clearly, he just wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut, and not to brag how smart and cunning he is. That he managed to trick even all powerful Tywin Lannister. And while Tywin Lannister shit gold in his toilet, the Genius Tyrion is bringing whores into his castle.

Cersei knew that Tyrion will try to seize Casterly Rock. She knew that he will use that tunnel. So she made a plan that will counter Tyrion's plan. She took away all resources from CR, and nearly all troops. Some soldiers were left behind as a scapegoats, to serve as decoy to trick Unsullied. Main forces of Unsullied were pretending that they are trying to seize the castle, while one group were sent into tunnel. Meanwhile, soldiers that remained inside castle walls, were pretending that they're holding castle defences. And while Usullied's attention was (devided between attacking castle's walls, and getting thru tunnel) centered on Casterly Rock, Euron sneaked up to their back and burned their fleet.

10 hours ago, MrJay said:

Highgarden stupidly faught them in the open. Not sure why. 

And if they didn't, and that siege lasted only a couple days, then the show is even worse than I thought. 

Highgarden happened the way it did not because of any internal consistency or logic. It happened cause the show was through with Olena and wanted her gone quickly. 

If I was writing GOT, and had enough screen time, to add that battle into one of episodes, I would have made it to go according to this scenario:

Olenna arrived back to Highgarden, after her negotiations with Dany at Dragonstone. Randyll Tarly and his son, together with their soldiers arrived to Highgarden, and went thru the gates. Olenna's people haven't even thought about stopping them. Because af far as they knew, as far as Olenna herself thought at that time, Tarlys were her bannermen, loyal to Tyrells family.

When they were already inside castle walls, Lannisters troops revealed their presence. And while attention of Olenna's people were diverted by them, they were suddenly attacked from inside, by Randyll's people. First of all they killed those that guarded the gates, and blocked Tyrells' access to their armory storage. Thus Lannisters forces were able to easily get into castle, without meeting any serious resistance. They got in, and just butchered everyone. People were unprepared, and majority of them were unarmed.

Or second scenario: Randyll arrived in Highgarden with his people. He went to talk with Olenna, and for the last time tried to reason with her. But there he confirmed for himself, that it won't work, thus he has no choice. So he gave a signal to his son, and Dickon Tarly went out of that room, where Olenna and Randyll were talking. He ordered Tarly's people to attack, and simultaneosly gave a signal to Lannisters troops, that were hiding nearby, prepared to attack. When Olenna's attention was distracted by sudden commotion, Randyll said that he will go and see what is going on. He went out, and joined his people, just in time, when Lannisters troops arrived to the gates. Open gates. And aided them in killing Tyrells' people.

If I were Jaime, I would begin execution of this plan at night. Where Randyll, Dickon and their people served a role of Trojan horse. They would have killed people guarding the gates, and people in armory room. Blocked exit of Tyrells' soldiers out of barracs, where they slept. Let Lannisters forces to go inside, and then butcher everyone.

But based on what was seen in the end of episode 3 (when Jaime went inside, there were not that many dead bodies, Tyrells had maybe just a few hundreds soldiers, present in Highgarden prior beginning of battle), the reason why Highgarden fell so fast, is because there were only small number of people. So they were unable to oppose incoming huge army. Here, 0:54-1:04:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdfPMU2ZK0

Randyll just knew when to attack. He choose the best time, while Tyrells were unprepared to defend themselves.

[jcmontea]

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm 100% sure that Cersei knew. And Tywin knew. And people in general knew. Only Tyrion himself was still in delusion, that he had a 'secret' tunnel under CR.

Tyrion isn't as smart, as he thinks he is. He's a drunkard, and a debauchee, and he hates his family. So it's very likely that during one of his drinking parties with Lannister soldiers, or servants, or with hookers, he drunkenly blabbed that he tricked Tywin Lannister, and build secret passage under Casterly Rock, right under Tywin's nose. When he was drunk, and not thinking clearly, he just wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut, and not to brag how smart and cunning he is. That he managed to trick even all powerful Tywin Lannister. And while Tywin Lannister shit gold in his toilet, the Genius Tyrion is bringing whores into his castle.

Cersei knew that Tyrion will try to seize Casterly Rock. She knew that he will use that tunnel. So she made a plan that will counter Tyrion's plan. She took away all resources from CR, and nearly all troops. Some soldiers were left behind as a scapegoats, to serve as decoy to trick Unsullied. Main forces of Unsullied were pretending that they are trying to seize the castle, while one group were sent into tunnel. Meanwhile, soldiers that remained inside castle walls, were pretending that they're holding castle defences. And while Usullied's attention was (devided between attacking castle's walls, and getting thru tunnel) centered on Casterly Rock, Euron sneaked up to their back and burned their fleet.

I don’t think they abandoned Casterly Rock as a trick. 

I think it was purely a function of the need to capture Highgarden and probaby the inability to get Highgarden and hold on to the Rock.

The Iron Bank was calling in its debt. They desperatley needed to get their hands on gold. I think that was the driving factor. 

They don’t pay the Iron Bank and all of a sudden Dany would not only have 100k Dothraki but every mercencary force in Essos as well. 

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Tyrion isn't as smart, as he thinks he is. He's a drunkard, and a debauchee, and he hates his family.

Wrong

You seriously think Tyrion hates Jaime, despite all the evidences of the opposite?

And the internet is full of theories about Tyrion betraying Dany in order to protect what's left of his family…

[MinscS2]

10 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

And the internet is full of theories about Tyrion betraying Dany in order to protect what's left of his family…

Theories?
If not for all the bad military advice he gave Daenerys that ultimately served to protect his family (both Jamie and Cersei) then Daenerys would've been on the ironthrone before the season ended. When Daenerys calls him out for "caring about/not wanting to hurt his family", there is actually a lot of truth in that statement. Tyrion placed his own agenda before that of his queen, and showed that he's ultimately more loyal to his siblings than Daenerys, which technically means he has betrayed her already.

If this will lead to anything in S8 or will just be swept under the rug remains to be seen.

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, MrJay said:

They even did it for casterly rock. So why not the red keep?

Casterly Rock is a single castle standing on top of a hill/mountain. While Red Keep is this:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/gbbysl9gvyru6dk6rkhd.jpg

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Kings_Landing-1024x682.jpg

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/9/93/King's_Landing.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20110705175704

Thus it can't be attacked. Not under current conditions. Sea on three sides - protected by Euron's fleet. If Dany's Dothraki will attack from fourth side, then between them and Cersei will be 1 million of innocent people. Furthermore castle itself also is separated from city with high walls.

The only way for Dany to get there, is her dragons. But Tyrion (the secret double agent, that is unknowingly, even to himself, is still protecting interests of Lannisters family) is always persuading her not to do this.

Seems to me, that even more than D&D wants to keep Lena Headey, for some more time on GOT, they are obliged by GRRM to keep there Tyrion. Currently he is useless. Useless to Dany, useless to GOT, useless to ASOIAF. He isn't smart enough to pose a serious threat to Cersei. He isn't experienced enought to provide any essential insign, about war strategies and big politics, to major players of the Game of Thrones. I think that even in the books, Tyrion will prove to be useless to Young Griff.

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

- Daeny not understanding that the entire city isn't one big castle and she can attack it without much casualties makes sense. 

This is entirely Tyrion's fault.

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

- Cersei thinking it's a bright idea to abandon a stronghold makes sense. 

If she didn't abandoned it, then now all her soldiers from Casterly Rock would've been dead (20 or so thousands); King's Landing would've been under siege by Olenna's and Dany's troops, and fleet of Iron Bank would've been approaching Red Keep on three sides, to eliminate Euron's fleet, and to aid Dany with their help, to let her win this war.

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

-  Grey worm thinking that casterly rock is useless and he must return a failure makes sense. 

No food, or any other resources, to sustain his 8,000 soldiers army.

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

- Olenna deciding to take her weak (and she admits they suck) troops outside to fight an actual commander with better soldiers, makes sense. 

Maybe she didn't sent them out, maybe Lannisters broke the gates with battering ram, or scaled the walls using special ladders (same as Unsullied in that episode). Some of them got in, opened the gates, and let in all the rest thru the gates. Tyrells were unprepared for a siege, so they had no barrels filled with resin, and other stuff to repel climbers.

There was only few of them, they were unprepared, furthermore they were weak.

9 hours ago, MrJay said:

- Daeny somehow missing an entire fleet sail by her  twice. Makes sense. 

Euron's fleet got to KL in scene 3 of episode 1, while Dany's fleet arrived to Dragonstone in scene 9 of the same episode. And Yara with Theon weren't with her.

https://genius.com/Game-of-thrones-dragonstone-script-annotated
Euron didn't had to go past Dany, she wasn't there yet. At that time Yara went to Dorne, to fetch from there Olenna and Sands.

Later, when Yara sailed with Sands to bring them back to Dorne, and to take from there Dornish troops, at the same time Unsullied sailed to Casterly Rock. Thus Dany's nearly entire fleet was away from Blackwater Bay, so it isn't weird that Euron's fleet easily went by Dragonstone. Who was left there to watch over sea, Dothraki that have ZERO sea experience? Furthermore they could've passed by at night time.

To certain people the war makes no sence, but that's only because either they don't get it, or they didn't like the way it was executed. So to say that something is badly made, or stupid, just because you don't get/don't like/or don't agree with it, is unreasonable.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I don’t think they abandoned Casterly Rock as a trick. 

I didn't meant that abandoning CR was a trick.

What I meant is that leaving at CR hundred or so soldiers, to keep appearance as if though Lannisters full forces were in the castle, and were defending it from being seized, and using those few soldiers as decoy, to lure Unsullied away from their fleet <- THIS was a trick.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

You seriously think Tyrion hates Jaime, despite all the evidences of the opposite?

And the internet is full of theories about Tyrion betraying Dany in order to protect what's left of his family…

Jaime is an exception. But Cersei and Tywin he hated/still hates.

Thought I agree with people that think that Tyrion is planning to betray Dany, to be forgiven by Cersei, as one of reasons.

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Daenerys calls him out for "caring about/not wanting to hurt his family"

And he didn't denyed it.

[The Golden Wolf]

15 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I agree about no Barry. Huge loss.

But Jaime Lannister would disagree with you regarding the Dothraki. It clearly would not have been as one sided without Drogon because Drogon is Drogon. But the Dothraki would have probably still salughtered them. Or at least that is what the show wants you to believe given Robert’s quotes in Season 1 and Jaime’s quotes about how the Dothraki would beat any army he has ever seen. Whether they actually showed this versus just saying it is an open question.

I always took that quote with a grain of salt. While it would be true if one lord went out and met the Dothraki in an "open field" they would be destroyed, a coordinated effort of the Lords of Westeros would destroy the Dothraki especially if they the lords choose the field of battle which being the home team they could easily do. The Dothraki are used to wide open plains and steppes but Westeros probably only has 1 or 2 regions like that. The North and Dorne would be death traps for the Dothraki due to the Cold and Heat of those regions, The Vale is mostly mountain, The Riverlands are full of rivers that would slow the Dothraki down, and The Stormlands are heavily forested. The best area for the Dothraki is Reach and the Westerlands. 

Still if not for the War of the Five Kings Westeros could have still defeated the Dothraki if they put up a united front, which is what Eddard knew. it would have been hard as hell to keep the movements of such a large fleet coming to Westeros quiet from everyone and would have given the Iron Throne time to call the banners. If anything The War of the Five Kings actually made Varys' fAegon plan more viable.  

[MrJay]

(Stretches)

17 hours ago, jcmontea said:

That is all beside the point.

your argument was that castles are impregnable but despite that the lannister tarly forces should have attacked a castle with less men. 

whether they fought them in the open or the siege lasted a mere few days does not really change the fact that your saying they should have gone with less men

No. My argument is actually that this war makes no sense (Points at thread title) . The treatment of castles that contradicts real world history and in universe examples was the spot I chose to focus on. Hence why me pointing out that it was stupid of anyone to leave their stronghold to be taken by the enemy (Cersei) , or leave their stronghold to fight a superior force (Olenna) are examples of more of the wars idiocy. 

This is just one of many reasons why the war makes no sense.

17 hours ago, jcmontea said:

This just sounds like your shifting the point away from the original comment you made that the show presented Cersei’s move as a great win when it really just set her up for a counter attack that would have ended the war but for the intervention of the war in the north. 

I don't see how. And also, that was one sentence in a long point. I find it a tad bit annoying when people focus on one out of context point like that. Just me. But I will entertain this.

I will say this again as simple as I can. Instead of going with something that makes sense and fits in with the established rules of the world they are crafting, they made an asspull. That's it. Cersei's "loss" was a loss that would have happened to anyone cause no character is above the power of the show writers. As Morpheous would say, What happened, happened and could not have happened any other way. This was not Cersei's failure and honestly this is the one time where she shouldn't have lost because there was no realistic way for the counter attack to happen.

9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Your assuming those tunnels are unguarded. Is that a reasonable assumption at this point? Unlikely. 

You also assume for some reason that they can take the city with minimal casulties instead of having the whole thing descend into brutal urban warfare. Dany has never taken a city like that. In Yunkai the slave soldiers rebelled and in Mereen the slaves also rebelled. KL has a professional security service in the gold cloaks not to mention how many ever Lannister soldiers are augmenting them.  

If your concern is trully to minimize civilian casulities, I don’t think an attack on KL is how you go about it. 

Yes it;s reasonable because there are so many of them and no one knows all of their locations. Not even Varys with all his knowledge know's them all. And Cersei chose to burn down the tower rather than explore and map them all. These tunnels being a vast and secret network is, well it's known and gone over so much that I am honestly shocked you think Cersei of all people is gonna be the one to map them all. Tell, me, is that reasonable?

And Daeny has done this already so it works. 

Unless your argument is that she only recently started caring about civilians, this just does not hold up. So often she uses this tactic that the war in the North is gonna be the first Army on Army fight her Unsullied have had in an open battlefield. So you explain to me. Why can she not attempt what she has been doing since she first got those soldiers, and continued to do up even to Casterly Rock? 

Daeny: Hmm. I need to get to Cersei but I don't wanna kill civilians.

Tyrion: Oh, I wanna chat with my bro. Varys, dem tunnels still work?

Varys: Yeah they still good bro. Why? You looking to find some whores?

Tyrion: Nah, Gonna chat with my bro. Speaking of. Daeny...I have a plan to take the rock.

Daeny: I'm listening.

Tyrion: We go in through the secret tunnels. Just gimme 20 or so guys and it's a done deal. Easy.

Daeny: Oh I like that. I've done it before and my Unsullied are great at it. You have them.

(Turns back to war table) 

Daeny: Now how do I get to Cersei....Hmmmmmmmm

 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Casterly Rock is a single castle standing on top of a hill/mountain. While Red Keep is this:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/gbbysl9gvyru6dk6rkhd.jpg

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Kings_Landing-1024x682.jpg

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/9/93/King's_Landing.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20110705175704

Thus it can't be attacked. Not under current conditions. Sea on three sides - protected by Euron's fleet. If Dany's Dothraki will attack from fourth side, then between them and Cersei will be 1 million of innocent people. Furthermore castle itself also is separated from city with high walls.

Serious question. Everyone here knows that the Red keep has a huge network of secret tunnels leading all over the place, and Varys has an intimate knowledge of a lot (but not all) of them?

Is it just me? Did I imagine this? I'm being serious here. Maybe I just got some things crossed in my head and there really are no tunnels leading in and out of King's Landing and into the Red Keep.

 

But to retort. If you can accept three dragons targeting one ship in the middle of a fleet of ships, then I am sure you can accept three dragons managing to burn the red keep and leave the rest of the city intact.

If they wanted to give Daeny a reason not to do it, they should have said she doesn't want to destroy a fortress her ancestor built for sentimental reasons. That makes more sense than pretending she cant' destroy one building without killing a million people first.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

This is entirely Tyrion's fault.

This and the rest that follows makes no sense to me. I was throwing a bone and explaining how this convoluted mess could work, and now you are shooting those down too? What I was doing there is latching on to even the most flimsy of excuses for this bad plot, and even those you cannot accept, and yet you defend stuff like Daeny not being able to burn the Red Keep.

 

And here is the kicker: 

While I was vaguely aware of the red Keep's position to the city, your links only bolstered my argument. The way it's positioned is absolutely perfect for dragon attack. Daeny doesn't even have to risk them flying over city defenses. Just come up from the sea, hover/soar around, and melt it to the ground. The city will be left unscathed. And we also see how many areas are open air (like Cersei's little map room) so there is a very good chance you can catch her and kill her outright.

It's honestly insulting to the characters and the audience they are doing everything but this. I give the writers some slack since they have a lot to do in a short time, but this is inexcusable. This is some Middle School level writing.

[MrJay]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Euron's fleet got to KL in scene 3 of episode 1, while Dany's fleet arrived to Dragonstone in scene 9 of the same episode. And Yara with Theon weren't with her.

Please do not get me started on Euron's magic fleet. That is an entirely separate point of absurdity right there.

How you gonna have a huge fleet of ships at the mouth of a port and you miss another huge fleet of ships not once but twice? And on top of that you have dragons that can easily be used as scouts. This magic fleet can sail undetected anywhere, and are faster than modern day vessels apparently.

No. I will not even discuss anything that has to do with Euron at all until this matter has ended. It's bad enough I had to incorporate the absurdity of Daeny not attacking the Red Keep, not using tunnels, or even the fact Cersei is still in control despite doing everything that would get anyone in any universe murdered.

To certain people the war makes no sence, but that's only because either they don't get it, or they didn't like the way it was executed. So to say that something is badly made, or stupid, just because you don't get/don't like/or don't agree with it, is unreasonable.

You're better than this. I won't even entertain this with a proper response because this is below both of us.

[MrJay]

So. I'm waiting on my steak to finish, and I am bored. So I am gonna go ahead and do a quick and dirty draft of how I would have done this conflict. The goal being to not interrupt suspension of disbelief, and still have roundabout the same results.

Begins: Dany lands on Dragonstone. Immediately begins preparing for a land invasion. Her advisers all coax her to it, but she doesn't want that. No civilian casualties if possible, starving them out will be the last resort. Someone suggests she just use dragon's to burn the Red Keep. She doesn't want to burn it down so she fights it. Varys suggests the tunnels.

Sir Twenty of House Goodmen heads into the tunnels. But Cersei (shockingly) is very wary of that place now. You see a "little bird" scamper and that is your first clue. Next thing you know Sir Twenty is ambushed in the darkness, and the Mountain is there as well. Cersei smiles as she hears the echoes of her enemies screams from another place in the castle.

 

So Dany is furious now. Enter Olenna. BE A DRAGON! Dany hops on Drogon and takes her kids to the Red Keep. She begins burning it, but it's rather strong so while it is damaged, it's still strong. Cersei's forces scramble and make a meager defense, but eventually Dany leaves since arrows can still kill her. She is on a high now and excited for her first real strike.

However, Cersei employs the Scorpion for next time. She dislikes some little upjump harlot coming to her home like that. This was much too close for comfort.

Meanwhile, Euron is now on deck. He cracks jokes about cocks and points out how the Red Keep looks like booty now. He says he can help. When Cersei asks about his fleet he informs her that only a fool captain would bring his entire fleet past an enemy with ships and dragons. No. They are close, and they can help.

Dany decides to split her forces (cause her advisers are not very good at war). She will take the Rock with her go to trick, though she is wary this time. She goes with her Unsullied to provide some air support. Olenna and co have left earlier already.

Enter the Euron: He allows Dany's unsullied to go unmolested. No way he is messing with dragons. However, his fleet is now hot on Yara's trail and it's now a sea chase. Unfortunately, Euron's ships are just plain better. Yara flexes her captain skills and eeks out all the speed she can, but her fleet is being overtaken. She decides to turn and fight. Enter badass sea battle scene.

Euron brings Cersei her prisoners. More cock jokes.

Dany Takes the Rock: It was easy, as she expected. Unfortunately, Jaime and Lord Tarly are not exactly restless commanders. With Jaime's impatience, and Tarly's wizdom, a plan was hatched to strike Highgarden while they were still organizing. The Reach forces arrive under a banner of loyalty, then quickly cut down defenders. Tarly mislikes this, but Jaime explains it was what his dad would have done.

Dany returns to Dragonstone to find that Highgarden is gone, The sandsnakes and Yara are captured, and she has some weird visitor guy. She is enraged and immediately goes off to attack the Red Keep once more. Cersei's Scorpion strikes Drogon and quickly ends the attack.

Dany returns wet, irate, and with a hurt pride. So when she meets Jon, she is in no mood to hear anything besides the sound of his cold knees bending. (This explains her desire to have him kneel to such an extent).

(Everything happens as normal)

Dany and Jon bond a bit and he is asking for help. She cannot. She is planning an attack on King's Landing, she has Unsullied already holding the Rock, and one of her dragon's is recovering. She is in no position to help fight another war.

As this goes on...scouts report that the Highgarden army is on the move. Dany unleashes the Dothraki as normal as well as her other two dragon's. The loot train is hauling ass as fast as the men can manage because no one feels comfortable in the open anymore. Then the attack happens, minus the scorpion. Jaime falls into the water..

Jaime emerges from water without any damned armor. Cause Bronn helped him remove it all before he drowned. Nuff said.

 

And that's all I got for now. Gonna go eat.

 

One more thing. This is just off the top of my head and I know it's not great. The point is to "fix" the story and make it all make sense like these are real people who are actually trying not to die vs following silly plot points. Feel free to tear it apart. It only makes me a better writer.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, MrJay said:

And here is the kicker:

While I was vaguely aware of the red Keep's position to the city, your links only bolstered my argument. The way it's positioned is absolutely perfect for dragon attack. Daeny doesn't even have to risk them flying over city defenses. Just come up from the sea, hover/soar around, and melt it to the ground. The city will be left unscathed. And we also see how many areas are open air (like Cersei's little map room) so there is a very good chance you can catch her and kill her outright.

It's honestly insulting to the characters and the audience they are doing everything but this. I give the writers some slack since they have a lot to do in a short time, but this is inexcusable. This is some Middle School level writing.

This. 100%. This is absolutely unavoidable and any attempt to do otherwise is justified only by the inability or laziness of the writers to describe Cersei placed in a different situation…

One might think that Lena Headey (or her impresario) is henceforth the showrunner…