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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I find it funny because of all the plot naval bullshit this season has produced, the Silence is the one thing I can explain:

- Euron leaves King's Landing to get Cersei a gift. (He passes Dragonstone for the first time)

- He then intercept the fleet from Dragonstone to Sunspear (Dorne in the show). Of course some people argue there are sealines as if wind and weather does not exists and as if the Ironborn themself would not avoid the Coast. This is somehow a joke as Ironborn vs Ironborn fleet should not have a position advantage but whatever. He knows the position for one reason and one reason only: He has a spy on board or the naval commander intentionally moves the fleet to a certain spot to find. 

- And of course, because one Ironborn fleet is faster as another, he can assault the one ship he has to assault. As if combat formation is a thing. 

- For some reason nobody understands why the Unsullied use another ship travel ticket than Yara's ironborn fleet. This is the case because later we get the report that Yara's fleet has been destroyed. And of course only one ship survives. Because again Ironborn ships are faster than Ironborn ships. Ths Unsullied most likely use another ship class and therefore have another route (hint hint, Dromons are not very stable at high sea, hint, hint)

- Euron then orders his fleet including the Silence to pursuit the Dromon fleet. How he knows of the second fleet I don't know. It would be more logical for the remainder of his fleet to transport the Lannister forces or return to their one and only base of operation: the Iron Isles. He himself leaves his fleet and takes the land route to KL through the Stormlands.

- As I mentioned earlier the first thing I would have done ,like asap yesterday, would be to block the Blackwater from the south. Again this would have prevented Euron to reach KL but whatever. (hint hint, it would solve a raven problem if it ever existed, hint hint)

- So Euron marches to KL through the Kingswood and the Silence is off. And most likely reaches the Iron Isles before the Dromon fleet because the Dromon fleet has to navigate closer to the coast after the Arbor while Ironborn ships can navigate the high sea. 

- Of course both of Dany's fleets are not in the mood to do any raven communication what so ever. It must be incredible hard to send from any friendly position on their route in the Reach or in Dorne or for Dany to send commands ahead of the fleet to a location she knows the fleet will arrive at. Like .... Oldtown. Not that anything raven related is in Oldtown. Nononononono.

- Then the Dromon fleet arrives at Casterly Rock and all the commander of CR has to do is sending a raven at first sighting to Pyke about the fleet and bang. The Iron Fleet leaves Pyke to intercept. Wohooooo.

 

- So the Silence and the teleporting is explained, Euron simply takes the land route, the Iron Fleet intercepts from the Iron Isles by raven and done. And since now all is explained I want to highlight once more the absurd incompetence in team Dany. Because if you have a lack of ravens getting ravens from Driftmark or literally anywhere else would be impossible. I don't give a shit anymore. 

You could be right but I think it isn't even necessary that Euron took the land route and sent the Silence ahead. Just look at the map and the distances involved (my estimations are pretty rough, I drew lines in photoshop on a map of Westeros and compared the length):

- King's Landing to Dragonstone by Sea is about 400 miles. The detour Euron took (somewhere south of Dragonstone to KL and back on route) is no more than 1.000 miles.

- The entire route from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock is about 3.000 to 4.000 miles

- Average mileage for medieval sailing ships is about 160 miles a day with immense differences because of weather, ship type and skill of the crew. Lets say the Unsullied traveled 3.500 miles at 160 miles a day. They were on sea for 22 days.

- Euron had to travel 4.500 miles and as he has faster ships (built for speed and sea battles rather than troup transport) and is a better sailor, he manages 190 miles a day. 23 and a half day.

- The Unsullied sneaked up on CR and fought a battle there. The extra day is accounted for.

- It's quite possible that the difference in speed between the two fleets is even greater, because ship types matter a lot when it comes to sailing ships.

Correct me if I got something grossly wrong. I'm no expert on things nautical. Google had to help a lot.

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4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Well, possibly. :)
They don't seem to be in a rush though, and if there's any truth behind the "It was a trap from the NK"-theory it makes sense that they would wait until Daenerys showed up anyway, so they could let the lake refreeze on it's own.

I favor the idea that the NK saw an opportunity that someone might come to the rescue and decided to wait and see who would show up. So he let Gendry escape. The ice spears he had ready indicate that the trap was more specific though.

Still, that whole episode really stretched things too far imo. They should have found a reason for Dany being at Eastwatch too. The extra distance to Dragonstone is just too much.

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16 minutes ago, Zapho said:

You could be right but I think it isn't even necessary that Euron took the land route and sent the Silence ahead.

I simply rage each time Euron casually sails with a fleet through the Gullet (the strait between Driftmark and the continent) and nobody cares. While the entire point of Driftmark/Dragonstone is its position as a gate to Blackwater Bay.  

That's why I prefere the land version.

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17 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Yet they showed or implied none of this.

They showed final result of it - Euron's new Iron Fleet.

I'm not making any excuses. This conversation starten (not even with you) when I pointed to other Member that it is possible, with Euron's resources and number of people, to build 1,000 ships in six months.

 

 

17 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

You're literally making all this shit up on D & D's behalf because they're too lazy. Look at this. It's pathetic. You're trying so damn hard to make excuses for this cynical trainwreck of a show. It's actually kind of depressing.

 

19 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

You're honestly a smarmy git for someone defending a season of GoT that's involved a budget-breaking polar bear wight, the lines 'it's a foreign invasion' preceding lesbian sex, boatsex, the big gay wight hunt fellowship beyond the wall, teleporting fleets, teleporting ravens, and the list goes bloody on.

 

17 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

They just make shit appear out of nowhere because the moronic viewers don't care, and the smarter-but-emotionally-pot-committed viewers like you will make any excuse necessary.

Look at you, you're fighting to your dying breath to defend a show that tried to make 'you want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy' sound seductive. God, that's kind of miraculous. D & D have successfully instilled a cult-like devotion in people that's convinced them that they're flawless, talented writers.

 

19 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Also, fuck off with the 'you just don't like surprises' bullshit.

 

20 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Were you watching the series blind or something? The Silence has an obvious design difference to the other Ironborn ships; you know, it's the ship with loads of loads of angular sails, much bigger than the other boats?

 

On 19.09.2017 at 5:08 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

You're forgetting that the Iron Islands would also need enough trees to rebuild the fleet as well, but once again, this level of honeypotting just shows that D & D don't give a flying fuck about plausibility when they have emotionally pot-committed people with properly-functioning frontal lobes willing to make all the excuses for them.

 

On 19.09.2017 at 3:31 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

The only difference between honeypotters and people like me is the former uses their intellect to make excuses for the show, the latter to poke holes in it. And D & D hate intellectuals all the same, they just don't say anything about the honeypotters while they sneer at people like me. Their real audience, the ones they like and the ones they write for, are the clapping seals that want to see more GURL POWAAAA or tits and dragons.

 

 

My reply to all of that:

On 19.09.2017 at 3:56 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

I'd appreciate you not being a smarmy bastard.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

And naval channel that leads thru Westeros is one of those possibilities. 

I don't think it is. Even with the war going on, someone would have noticed and stopped it. Plus the whole thing could not have been planned that far ahead and Euron was busy building ships.

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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

They showed final result of it - Euron's new Iron Fleet.

I'm not making any excuses. This conversation starten (not even with you) when I pointed to other Member that it is possible, with Euron's resources and number of people, to build 1,000 ships in six months.

 

The more I think about it the more I like my interpretation (typical human response). Euron did not build 1,000 ships. He built a lot of damm ships. How many? As many as he could during that time. He is the Donald Trump of Weseros who talks out of his arse and uses numbers figuratively instead of literally. 

 

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reply to all of that:

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The more I think about it the more I like my interpretation (typical human response). Euron did not build 1,000 ships. He built a lot of damm ships. How many? As many as he could during that time. He is the Donald Trump of Weseros who talks out of his arse and uses numbers figuratively instead of literally. 

:agree:

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I simply rage each time Euron casually sails with a fleet through the Gullet (the strait between Driftmark and the continent) and nobody cares. While the entire point of Driftmark/Dragonstone is its position as a gate to Blackwater Bay.  

That's why I prefere the land version.

That's true but unfortunately we saw his fleet arriving in KL for his first meeting with Cersei and he doesn't strike me as the type who would leave command of his super ship in a lieutenant's hand. There's still the possibility that he uses magic to veil the Silence (and possibly his whole fleet). The books hinted at lots of dark stuff he dabbled in and season 8 might show some of it.

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4 minutes ago, Zapho said:

There's still the possibility that he uses magic to veil the Silence (and possibly his whole fleet). The books hinted at lots of dark stuff he dabbled in and season 8 might show some of it.

Well, I guess magic against magic (Dragons) is not defined. ;)

 

As with most of the season: A good structure where Euron uses Dany's presence in the North would have solved 90% of the problems. So many problems could have been avoided by a action -> reaction structure starting with Cersei's money problem and looking from where it goes from there. And not the cut we got. That cut was horrible.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If you don't like it so much, why are you even watching it? Just to criticize it after?

There was indication of it shown on screen, you just missed it. Though not you alone, others too. I gave a hint where to look for this clue, but people missed it too.

Creep Squad wasn't limited to Cersei, Qyburn, the Mountain, and Birds. There WERE others. It wasn't directly shown on screen, but it was obvious from what WAS shown.

And what was shown, given you're once again being a smarmy git and implying that we're all stupid for not worshipping D & D as flawless writers and seeing all the obvious 'off screen development'?

Also, 'don't like, don't watch' is the rallying call of people who don't like critical thought, or thinking in general. Maybe I'm frustrated at the fact people are treating second-rate, dime-a-dozen Hollywood-style schlock as worthy of critical acclaim and analysis when it's writing on par with a horny teenage boy's?

PS: Outright hostile, my style, is not the same as smarmy, your style.

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9 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

And what was shown, given you're once again being a smarmy git and implying that we're all stupid for not worshipping D & D as flawless writers.

Also, 'don't like, don't watch' is the rallying call of people who don't like critical thought, or thinking in general. Maybe I'm frustrated at the fact people are treating second-rate, dime-a-dozen Hollywood-style schlock as worthy of critical acclaim and analysis when it's writing on par with a horny teenage boy's?

PS: Outright hostile, my style, is not the same as smarmy, your style.

Lol.

I think there is a space between the deepest most profound artistic work and dime a dozen hollywood style schlock. 

In that space is where GoT resides. Where in the space, is debatable. But its not as bad as you paint it to be nor do people who think its closer to the other side of the spectrum don't know what they are talking about. They just like different things and don't focus on time or logistics. 

Having said that, it is also undoubtedly true that it is a revolutionary TV show and has changed the game regarding what is even possible with television as a medium. 

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7 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol.

I think there is a space between the deepest most profound artistic work and dime a dozen hollywood style schlock. 

In that space is where GoT resides. Where in the space, is debatable. But its not as bad as you paint it to be nor do people who think its closer to the other side of the spectrum don't know what they are talking about. They just like different things and don't focus on time or logistics. 

Having said that, it is also undoubtedly true that it is a revolutionary TV show and has changed the game regarding what is even possible with television as a medium. 

Game changing in regards to how much budget is acceptable to throw at TV as a medium, almost certainly. Its effects are revolutionary, of that, there is no doubt. Its writing, however, is not.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

They showed final result of it - Euron's new Iron Fleet.

Oh yeah, while I'm here, no, showing a final result isn't good enough. Extend this logic to storytelling in general.

Would Lord of the Rings work if they just showed the ring falling into Mount Doom with Smeagol, and then left fans to say 'Ah, well, the ring was a conduit of power for a dark lord that was taken by a human then caused a succession of disastrous events, passing from bearer to bearer until the final bearer, Frodo, went on a very very long walk through a land called Middle Earth (which this final result really establishes), all the while a war is raging on between the forces of the dark lord and everyone else, distracting the dark lord enough to allow Frodo to make it to Mount Doom, which is the only thing hot enough to melt the ring and kill the dark lord forever, and if you didn't get that from a ring falling into a volcano then you're just a dumb hater' without any of this actually happening in the books/on the screen?

I imagine to you it would, if your logic was truly consistent and extensible. However, this logic isn't extensible. There are limits to saying 'the final result justifies not showing us any of the journey there'.

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4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Game changing in regards to how much budget is acceptable to throw at TV as a medium, almost certainly. Its effects are revolutionary, of that, there is no doubt. Its writing, however, is not.

I think in terms of production, in terms of storytelling scope, in terms of what a show can demand from an audicence, in terms of themes, in terms of number of interesting characters, in terms of just basic plotting and development of multi-season arcs its unlike almost anything else on television.

You go back and watch season one and its clear that there were storylines being set up that year that are only being paid of in season 7. Most of TV just doesn't work that way. 

Obviously a lot of that is because its adapting an incredible book series, but taken as a TV show there just is not much like it. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Oh yeah, while I'm here, no, showing a final result isn't good enough. Extend this logic to storytelling in general.

Would Lord of the Rings work if they just showed the ring falling into Mount Doom with Smeagol, and then left fans to say 'Ah, well, the ring was a conduit of power for a dark lord that was taken by a human then caused a succession of disastrous events, passing from bearer to bearer until the final bearer, Frodo, went on a very very long walk through a land called Middle Earth (which this final result really establishes), all the while a war is raging on between the forces of the dark lord and everyone else, distracting the dark lord enough to allow Frodo to make it to Mount Doom, which is the only thing hot enough to melt the ring and kill the dark lord forever' without any of this actually happening in the books/on the screen?

I imagine to you it would, if your logic was truly consistent and extensible. However, this logic isn't extensible. There are limits to saying 'the final result justifies not showing us any of the journey there'.

Lord of the Rings (the movies) pulled a bull shit army of the dead out of their ass in the third act, never really explained Arwyin and why she was sick, never explained what the hell those eagles were about.... not sure that is what you want to point to regarding good storytelling

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5 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think in terms of production, in terms of storytelling scope, in terms of what a show can demand from an audicence, in terms of themes, in terms of number of interesting characters, in terms of just basic plotting and development of multi-season arcs its unlike almost anything else on television.

You go back and watch season one and its clear that there were storylines being set up that year that are only being paid of in season 7. Most of TV just doesn't work that way. 

Obviously a lot of that is because its adapting an incredible book series, but taken as a TV show there just is not much like it. 

 

When you put it like that, I guess it was admirable for even trying to adapt aSoIaF, even if I hold the writers and their 'creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen' in contempt. The first few seasons were actually capable of keeping foreshadowing from the books intact, and that's honestly neat compared to most TV shows.

I may be being harsh when I say it's dime-a-dozen Hollywood schlock, in that its execution was at least once upon a time really, really good. But I still harbour a deep resentment for D & D and their moronic creative process. They're upjumped morons propped up by decent source material, good actors, and good directors. The bastards dared say that the actors weren't told to get into characters; they just had to 'say the lines' and leave the writing up to them, the fucking super-geniuses.

Their hubris and the critics that fan the flames of said hubris are possibly the greatest sources of my antipathy towards the show.

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lord of the Rings (the movies) pulled a bull shit army of the dead out of their ass in the third act, never really explained Arwyin and why she was sick, never explained what the hell those eagles were about.... not sure that is what you want to point to regarding good storytelling

Not saying LotR is a great film; it's also Hollywood schlock, I was just pointing out the extension of the logic honeypotting runs off of (ie: They earned it offscreen).

But yeah, the random dead army was complete bullshit.

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16 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think in terms of production, in terms of storytelling scope, in terms of what a show can demand from an audicence, in terms of themes, in terms of number of interesting characters, in terms of just basic plotting and development of multi-season arcs its unlike almost anything else on television.

You go back and watch season one and its clear that there were storylines being set up that year that are only being paid of in season 7. Most of TV just doesn't work that way. 

Obviously a lot of that is because its adapting an incredible book series, but taken as a TV show there just is not much like it. 

 

There is nothing like it, ever.  That's what all the complainers on here don't get.  TV is not made this way and never will be again.  I for one, along with most people I know, appreciate that, even when the show frustrates me.  I feel bad for others who can not enjoy the show in that way, as it's truly one-of-a-kind and truly a really special show, one of the best ever made.  

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2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

There is nothing like it, ever.  That's what all the complainers on here don't get.  TV is not made this way and never will be again. [...]as it's truly one-of-a-kind and truly a really special show[...]

I'm sorry. I'm still waiting for my Babylon 5 Vorlon moment. This may sound incredible nitpicky but until now there are so many things that are NOT resolved and never will be. Like all the story about the WW. Or Winterfell. Or Storm's End. Or the Tower of Joy. And so on. Sure, you can throw in a bunch of mysteries and use some later. A lot of series have done that. But that is simply not the same as the Babylon 4 story in Babylon 5. That was a one of a kind story that let's you confused in season 1 and then season 3 comes and it pulls out this story arc from nowhere. 

I would rate the later GoT more as a Deep Space Nine with an overall theme. But when it comes to story potential ... no. And it not as if other shows haven't had entire show arcs. Battlestar Galactica had. They even counted the number of survivors. 

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@Tagganaro - Agreed. Despite it's many flaws, I'd say Game of Thrones is in a league of it's on as far as TV-shows are concerned. Heck, I know people who have zero interest in fantasy (be it literature, movies or TV) who are glued to the screen watching Game of Thrones whenever a new episode airs.

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19 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

@Tagganaro - Agreed. Despite it's many flaws, I'd say Game of Thrones is in a league of it's on as far as TV-shows are concerned. Heck, I know people who have zero interest in fantasy (be it literature, movies or TV) who are glued to the screen watching Game of Thrones whenever a new episode airs.

I'd argue the reason people who don't like fantasy like GoT is because it panders to the same old viewer-hooking tricks that any other TV show does, but honestly, that argument alone relies a little too much on the hipster-like 'it's popular, so it sucks' logic. I think people are just emotionally pot-committed at this point, committed to the intriguing characters that were established early on.

Even if they get irreparably neutered, like Tyrion, people will always be invested in the characters they've attached themselves to, especially when GoT still markets itself as a show where 'anyone can die' (even though Arya and Jon have blatant plot armour). Hell, it's why I managed to watch through Seasons 5 & 6 in silence and merely mull over my discontent before exploding onto these forums only after Season 7 broke my camel-like back.

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