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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I can at least (try) to rationalize that even if they really should've explained it better.
It's possible that they where so close to the wall that Gendry could run back in X amount of hours, and just because we only saw 1 night pass doesn't mean that only 1 night passed; if they spent 4-5 days on that isle - It takes much longer than 1 day for a lake to refreeze to the point that it would be able to carry the weigh of that many humans - then the timeframe might add up.

Except if you stretch it out to 4 or 5 days, you have to wonder how Jon & Co. survived in subzero conditions without shelter. Not only survived, but survived in good enough shape to fight the Army of the Dead by themselves for a while before the dragon showed up. 

I know, the Hound pounded a cave in the rock big enough for them to fit in, and Beric kept them warm with his pyromancy. We weren't shown it, but trust me. 

 

Also, we've seen that general coldness follows the White Walkers, and possibly the Night King himself has demonstrated the special magical skill of Cold Touch®. They didn't refreeze the lake quicker why? 

Oh yeah, "It's a trap!" Ol' Night Kingy knew a dragon was coming and knew he'd need reverse-dragonfire to get past the Wall.

Which we also weren't shown, because they burned the budget for those scenes on the zombie polar bear. 

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Just now, darmody said:

Which we also weren't shown, because they burned the budget for those scenes on the zombie polar bear. 

"Damn it, we want that wight polar bear!" - Emmy-Award-Winning Writer, 2017

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7 minutes ago, darmody said:

Except if you stretch it out to 4 or 5 days, you have to wonder how Jon & Co. survived in subzero conditions without shelter. Not only survived, but survived in good enough shape to fight the Army of the Dead by themselves for a while before the dragon showed up. 

Warm clothes and pure badassery? ;)

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Have you read what I wrote?

You think it's impossible to build another ship the same as Silence?

Was there serial number writen on board of that ship? No.

Was there name of it writen on the side? No.

Was there Euron shown on board of that ship, jumping up and down on upper deck and waving his hand to Unsullied? No.

I saw that video. But are you 100% sure that THAT ship IS Silence? And not Silence II?

I'm just saying that it's possible that:

1. THAT ship is NOT Silence,

What a great tv show, setting up that interesting-looking ship, letting us know it belongs to Euron, then not telling us there's another ship that looks just like it sailing in the fleet. No doubt sailed by Euron's secret twin, Beuron, who was Man in the Iron Masked by their other brother, Balon. 

It's totally awesome, as cool as if Star Wars had a ship called the Billenium Balcon, piloted by Han Solo's brother Ban Bolo and his trusted companion Bewbacca the Bookie. 

 

Think of how much confusion could have been cleared up by simply not showing the ship in the shot at Casterly Bay or whatever it's called. 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

What a great tv show, setting up that interesting-looking ship, letting us know it belongs to Euron, then not telling us there's another ship that looks just like it sailing in the fleet. No doubt sailed by Euron's secret twin, Beuron, who was Man in the Iron Masked by their other brother, Balon. 

It's totally awesome, as cool as if Star Wars had a ship called the Billenium Balcon, which, right after Han Solo showed up to clear the way for Luke to fire on the Death Star took the shot itself and saved the day before Luke could get there. 

HE'S NOT EURON, HE'S D & D'S ORIGINAL CHARACTER, BLEURON!

 

This is what Megarova thinks GoT is.

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Creep Squad wasn't limited to Cersei, Qyburn, the Mountain, and Birds. There WERE others. It wasn't directly shown on screen, but it was obvious from what WAS shown.

I assume you mean it's obvious because without an alternative explanation it's simply bad writing. But it's bad writing either way, because not only are we not shown Cersei organizing a "Black Guard," it was impossible for her to do so without her enemies noticing. In which case her enemies would've executed countermaneuvers, almost like a real plot. Which didn't happen. Instead, it was one long Cersei-stomping, then Kablammo!

She was under house arrest, had no allies that weren't weirdos, monsters, or kids with no social position whatsoever. Oh, and Jaime, but he wasn't there. If she had tried to recruit allies, dangit, it's King's Landing. Everyone's watching everyone. Especially Mz. Epic Walk of Shame herself. If she had secret allies all along, and the show didn't show us (why?), why didn't anyone else notice? Kevan may be as bad at spycraft as Varys and Littlefinger were this season, but when did Olestra suddenly get so incompetent? I mean, aside from letting Cersei's army march across the Reach and take Highgarden with minimal resistance.

But that was at least explained to the audience by the Tarlies jumping ship. And they had reasons to jump ship. We weren't shown anyone besides the Monster Squad on Cersei's side, and no one else had any reason to be on her side. Even those who despised the Faith Militant probably also despise House Lannister and its sassy mistress. 

We have two problems, here. One is that Secret Team Cersei, deduced into existence by your imagination, wasn't shown to exist. Not even long after D&D's beloved Shock Factor® is no longer an issue. The other is that the Secret Team Cersei Theory produces more plotholes than it solves. Because now you have to re-explain the entire Season Six King's Landing storyline as being Everyone But Cersei is a Boob. That's the Season Seven storyline, my friend.

In Season Six, Olestra, the High Sparrow, Marge, Tommen--well, Tommen knew about as much of what was happening as Jon Snow knows about anything, so nevermind him--Kevan, Pycelle, and literally everyone else thought Cersei's back was against the wall (not that wall) and she had no friends and no hope after trial by combat was eliminated. Their big mistake was to overlook the existence of wildfire. That was the story.

Your fan-fiction has them all as morons who overlooked Cersei's employment of conventional backstabbing moves. Why were they so confident that she was out of the game? Was the real story about their hubris? They were all as blind and dumb as S-7 Littlefinger and Varys, which I hardly need say is pathetic. Could make for an interesting storyline, but it wasn't on the Game of Thrones I watch. 

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20 hours ago, Einheri said:

Shipbuilding still requires people with the relevant know how and experience, so the question we should be asking ourselves is how many on the Iron Islands are actually capable of carrying out this task?

Wrong. Some of them, those that will be in charge, have to have previous experience. But for others it's not necessary.

Example from history:

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

Eighteen American shipyards built 2,710 Liberty ships between 1941 and 1945.

(Liberty ship is three times bigger than basic ship of Iron Fleet. Also Iron Fleet's ships are wooden, so their construction is much easier in comparision with ships from times of WWII.)

Some of Lyberty ships were build at Bethlehem-Fairfield Shipyards, in 1943.

At that time on construction of this ships there worked 46,700 people.

From Wikipedia:

"As America entered the war the shipbuilding yards employed women, to replace men who were enlisting in the armed forces."

"The first ships required about 230 days to build (Patrick Henry took 244 days), but the average eventually dropped to 42 days."

Shipyards often used inexperienced workers.

Sources: https://wiki2.org/en/Liberty_ship

"I'm afraid we may have now forgotten what photos like this show: how an amazingly complex activity can be planned, organized, carried out, and managed entirely by human beings without computers or computer networks. It was done using paper, pencils, wallboards, typewriters, carbon paper, telephones, radios, regular mail, and teletype machines. Many of the people involved likely did not have a high school education; few had a college degree. They did it with about 20% of the population, those in prime working age and in the best health, gone into the military."

http://www.shorpy.com/node/16316 

"They built 18 brand new shipyards just for Libertys. And put 650,000 Americans - women, men, young people, old people - building these ships. They became the largest fleet of ships ever built in the history of the world in such a short period of time."

http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthewater/exhibition/6_2.html

Infro from same link. During WWI "A push to recruit 250,000 additional shipyard workers in early 1918 led the Emergency Fleet Corporation to create the “U.S. Shipyard Volunteers.” Men who signed up to work in the yards were exempted from the military draft". <- in picture from this article there's hiring ad according to which laborers were required to work 10 hours per day.

How many out of those 650,000 people during WWII, and 250,000 people during WWI had previous experience at shipbuilding?

 

According to this http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Fleet

"the Iron Fleet is the elite naval force of the ironborn. It consists of around a hundred warships dipping 100 oars or more. It is one of the three most powerful fleets of Westeros, along with the royal fleet of the crownlands and the Redwyne fleet of the Arbor."

"The Iron Fleet is not the entirety or the majority of the ironborn naval forces, which are estimated to number well over 500 longships. However, most of these ships only dip 20 oars and are meant for coastal raiding, not pitched naval battles and ship-to-ship engagements."

"Since the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion, the Iron Fleet has been rebuilt to its former size."

Ironborn already have build over 500 ships, so they have many experienced shipwrights (shipbuilders).

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7 minutes ago, darmody said:

I assume you mean it's obvious because without an alternative explanation it's simply bad writing. But it's bad writing either way, because not only are we not shown Cersei organizing a "Black Guard," it was impossible for her to do so without her enemies noticing. In which case her enemies would've executed countermaneuvers, almost like a real plot. Which didn't happen. Instead, it was one long Cersei-stomping, then Kablammo!

She was under house arrest, had no allies that weren't weirdos, monsters, or kids with no social position whatsoever. Oh, and Jaime, but he wasn't there. If she had tried to recruit allies, dangit, it's King's Landing. Everyone's watching everyone. Especially Mz. Epic Walk of Shame herself. If she had secret allies all along, and the show didn't show us (why?), why didn't anyone else notice? Kevan may be as bad at spycraft as Varys and Littlefinger were this season, but when did Olestra suddenly get so incompetent? I mean, aside from letting Cersei's army march across the Reach and take Highgarden with minimal resistance.

But that was at least explained to the audience by the Tarlies jumping ship. And they had reasons to jump ship. We weren't shown anyone besides the Monster Squad on Cersei's side, and no one else had any reason to be on her side. Even those who despised the Faith Militant probably also despise House Lannister and its sassy mistress. 

We have two problems, here. One is that Secret Team Cersei, deduced into existence by your imagination, wasn't shown to exist. Not even long after D&D's beloved Shock Factor® is no longer an issue. The other is that the Secret Team Cersei Theory produces more plotholes than it solves. Because now you have to re-explain the entire Season Six King's Landing storyline as being Everyone But Cersei is a Boob. That's the Season Seven storyline, my friend.

In Season Six, Olestra, the High Sparrow, Marge, Tommen--well, Tommen knew about as much of what was happening as Jon Snow knows about anything, so nevermind him--Kevan, Pycelle, and literally everyone else thought Cersei's back was against the wall (not that wall) and she had no friends and no hope after trial by combat was eliminated. Their big mistake was to overlook the existence of wildfire. That was the story. 

Instead, they're all morons who overlooked her employment of conventional political backstabbing moves. They were all as blind and dumb as S-7 Littlefinger and Varys, which I hardly need say is pathetic. 

Thank god someone is giving real talk about how Megarova is just incapable of accepting a simple Doylist explanation of 'they just didn't care'.

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35 minutes ago, darmody said:

Except if you stretch it out to 4 or 5 days, you have to wonder how Jon & Co. survived in subzero conditions without shelter. Not only survived, but survived in good enough shape to fight the Army of the Dead by themselves for a while before the dragon showed up. 

We really need to get a somewhat realistic approximation of the time they would have had to spend on that rock in a frozen or not so frozen lake. Do we have any indication that ravens in universe fly faster than normal ravens? There is a bit about the pious king Baelor wanting to raplace ravens with doves at one time in TWoIaF and it didn't work out. In RL, doves are preferred as messenger birds. In-universe they aren't. Is speed a factor? Bearing in mind that the know-it-all-at-once device in-universe is a three-eyed raven? 

4 to 5 days seems to be the minimum to me too. I have less of a problem with the NK giving them the time than them being stupid enough to not realize that something fishy was going on when the NK gave them that much time. The NK had nothing to lose. It didn't matter to him whether he killed them instantly or 5 days later. But he also had nothing to gain from waiting for no reason. Therefore, he had a reason. He either had a plan from the start or he simply saw a chance to get more out of it than about 10 new wights. 

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8 minutes ago, Zapho said:

We really need to get a somewhat realistic approximation of the time they would have had to spend on that rock in a frozen or not so frozen lake. Do we have any indication that ravens in universe fly faster than normal ravens? There is a bit about the pious king Baelor wanting to raplace ravens with doves at one time in TWoIaF and it didn't work out. In RL, doves are preferred as messenger birds. In-universe they aren't. Is speed a factor? Bearing in mind that the know-it-all-at-once device in-universe is a three-eyed raven? 

4 to 5 days seems to be the minimum to me too. I have less of a problem with the NK giving them the time than them being stupid enough to not realize that something fishy was going on when the NK gave them that much time. The NK had nothing to lose. It didn't matter to him whether he killed them instantly or 5 days later. But he also had nothing to gain from waiting for no reason. Therefore, he had a reason. He either had a plan from the start or he simply saw a chance to get more out of it than about 10 new wights. 

Actually, three-eyed-crow in the books, the same verse you were talking about the dove replacement, but eh, techncalities, technicalities. Seriously, it's easier to just say 'they didn't care', especially when the directors have admitted with the teleporting ravens scene that they deliberately stretched plausibility for DRAMATIC SATISFACTION™ and that it doesn't matter because most of their audience will never ever question it anyway (and only when most of their audience questions it will they ever consider it a writing fuckup).

Article here: http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-timeline-explained/

Applicable quote: "We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities."

They know it's implausible, and assume people who give a shit about plausibility are just killjoys that are 'very concerned' (I'm imagining this being said in a smarmy tone) with minutia instead of people with valid criticisms of a silly spectacle-fuelled plot like the Meme Dream Team capturing a wight.

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35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wrong. Some of them, those that will be in charge, have to have previous experience. But for others it's not necessary.

Example from history:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

Eighteen American shipyards built 2,710 Liberty ships between 1941 and 1945.

(Liberty ship is three times bigger than basic ship of Iron Fleet. Also Iron Fleet's ships are wooden, so their construction is much easier in comparision with ships from times of WWII.)

Some of Lyberty ships were build at Bethlehem-Fairfield Shipyards, in 1943.

At that time on construction of this ships there worked 46,700 people.

From Wikipedia:

"As America entered the war the shipbuilding yards employed women, to replace men who were enlisting in the armed forces."

"The first ships required about 230 days to build (Patrick Henry took 244 days), but the average eventually dropped to 42 days."

Shipyards often used inexperienced workers.

Sources: https://wiki2.org/en/Liberty_ship

"I'm afraid we may have now forgotten what photos like this show: how an amazingly complex activity can be planned, organized, carried out, and managed entirely by human beings without computers or computer networks. It was done using paper, pencils, wallboards, typewriters, carbon paper, telephones, radios, regular mail, and teletype machines. Many of the people involved likely did not have a high school education; few had a college degree. They did it with about 20% of the population, those in prime working age and in the best health, gone into the military."

http://www.shorpy.com/node/16316 

"They built 18 brand new shipyards just for Libertys. And put 650,000 Americans - women, men, young people, old people - building these ships. They became the largest fleet of ships ever built in the history of the world in such a short period of time."

http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthewater/exhibition/6_2.html

Infro from same link. During WWI "A push to recruit 250,000 additional shipyard workers in early 1918 led the Emergency Fleet Corporation to create the “U.S. Shipyard Volunteers.” Men who signed up to work in the yards were exempted from the military draft". <- in picture from this article there's hiring ad according to which laborers were required to work 10 hours per day.

How many out of those 650,000 people during WWII, and 250,000 people during WWI had previous experience at shipbuilding?

Those new people still have to learn how to do their jobs, which takes time.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

According to this http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Fleet

"the Iron Fleet is the elite naval force of the ironborn. It consists of around a hundred warships dipping 100 oars or more. It is one of the three most powerful fleets of Westeros, along with the royal fleet of the crownlands and the Redwyne fleet of the Arbor."

"The Iron Fleet is not the entirety or the majority of the ironborn naval forces, which are estimated to number well over 500 longships. However, most of these ships only dip 20 oars and are meant for coastal raiding, not pitched naval battles and ship-to-ship engagements."

"Since the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion, the Iron Fleet has been rebuilt to its former size."

Ironborn already have build over 500 ships, so they have many experienced shipwrights (shipbuilders).

More than 11 years has passed since the end of the Greyjoy rebellion.

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

 I gave a hint where to look for this clue, but people missed it too

Could you give us more explicit clues, Hintmaster?

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Just now, darmody said:

Could you give us more explicit clues, Hintmaster?

Once again. Smarmy. As. Fuck. She must be thinking she's so clever. Just like how D & D must think of themselves, funnily enough.

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52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Example from history:

I mean you can draw all kind of things from history. But just because something from another technological period in another society with another building material and another population was done, doesn't mean that it can be done elsewhere. Sure, we talk about a fantasy world where it is possible to invent anything and rationalize everything. But that does not mean it makes the original idea any better when it was not even needed for the story in the first place.

There is no need to proof some 1000 ship madness. Sounds a lot like Mussolini and his 8 million blades. And there you have another historic connection. And you can decide if Euron is now Mussolini in your Westeros or not. 

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27 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Once again. Smarmy. As. Fuck. She must be thinking she's so clever. Just like how D & D must think of themselves, funnily enough.

If I were D&D I would think I think I am super clever every time i look at my Emmy's and my bank account. 

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

If I were D&D I would think I think I am super clever every time i look at my Emmy's and my bank account. 

Sad, but true. 'Creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen' gets you money, adulation, and respect in this world. It's no wonder D & D are cynical; it's a cold equation that's paid off.

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9 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Sad, but true. 'Creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen' gets you money, adulation, and respect in this world. It's no wonder D & D are cynical; it's a cold equation that's paid off.

They learned some of the lessons of their show

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

They learned some of the lessons of their show

I'd argue 'cynicism makes you win' is the thematic opposite of the books, which in my opinion is 'you have be the change you seek in this world, but dammit, be pragmatic about it at least'. I mean, we've seen cynics get toppled thanks to people rightfully starting getting sick of their shit in the books. As opposed to D & D's perspective, which is that Ramsay Bolton is a top-notch leader and everyone loves him for being a violent psychopath, and he only lost because Deus ex Vale Army. The way I see it, the books don't cheat to make the heroes win. The show cheats to make the bad guys win.

So I guess, yeah, they're promoting their own miserable worldview with the show. And its success only validates this worldview.

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59 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I'd argue 'cynicism makes you win' is the thematic opposite of the books, which in my opinion is 'you have be the change you seek in this world, but dammit, be pragmatic about it at least'. I mean, we've seen cynics get toppled thanks to people rightfully starting getting sick of their shit in the books. As opposed to D & D's perspective, which is that Ramsay Bolton is a top-notch leader and everyone loves him for being a violent psychopath, and he only lost because Deus ex Vale Army. The way I see it, the books don't cheat to make the heroes win. The show cheats to make the bad guys win.

So I guess, yeah, they're promoting their own miserable worldview with the show. And its success only validates this worldview.

I was speaking glibly. 

But being serious about it, I don't think the theme of the show is that being the most cynical is the path to victory. I certainly think the show says being cynical and having a certain amount of pragmatism/ ruthlessness can be advantageous - e.g. Dany in Astapor and Vaes Dothrak - but pure cynicism disconnected from any greater moral project has been having a really tough time of it in the show since the end of season 4. 

- Tywin was killed by his own son because his own conception of family was so corrosive and devoid of any morals that he thought it was ok to have his son executed to ensure he would not become his heir. The world doesn't work that way. Not everyone is so cynical. People care about things and his other son cared enough about real family and real personal relations that he set brother free which ultimately led to his demise. 

- Roose - a person even more cynical than Tywin. But if your willing to betray your own King and stab him, than what morals, what limits what norms are you communicating to your son is important? None really. And ultimately his son felt no compunction about doing the same thing to him in order to ensure his own position. 

- Walder Frey - a man like Roose who was willing to break a sacred commitment - guest right - in order to massacre a family to advance his position. He put poison out into the world that ended up boomeranging on to him when a member of the family he tried to eliminate came looking for revenge to not just destroy him but his entire male line.

- Ramsey - Treated the world as a sick game and fellow human beings as merely a tool for his own enjoyment including his wife. That wife ends up escaping and coming back to destroy him with an army that decided to fight for her. 

These are just some examples but ultimatley all of them are examples in the show of the most cynical being toppled in large part because their own actions set up a series of events that lead to their demise. 

In the end, I am sure we will be able to add Cersei and Euron to this list.  

And then perhaps more important than just those individual examples, is the idea of Ned vs. Tywin. Sure Ned was killed off early in part because he wouldn't play by the cynical rules of other. But compare the legacies of the two men. Ned because of the way he lived his life left a legacy that is going to save the world.

The key members of the Dragon and the Wolf alliance were all positively influenced by Ned and his lessons either directly because they decided to live their lives in a certain way in response to his teachings (e.g. Jon) or indirectly because they were saved by decisions and fights he picked (e.g. Dany very well could have been killed had they decided to try and execute her right away since Jorah still had not had the time to develop the relationship with her that led him to interfere). This is in marked contrast to Twyin whose legacy at this point is a daughter so warped and corrupted by his teachings that she is willing to risk the world burning if it means a slightly greater chance of holding on to power. 

In a world where we all die (''all men must die") - even the mighty like Tywin Lannister - what is truly important are the choices we make, how we decide to live, what we decide to value ("all men must serve") and how we decide to face our mortality ("death is the enemy, the first enemy and the last, but we must still fight it"). Nothing really hits this home than how Ned and Tywin lived their lives and what the people impacted by those lives are choosing to do in the face of an existential threat. 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I was speaking glibly. 

But being serious about it, I don't think the theme of the show is that being the most cynical is the path to victory. I certainly think the show says being cynical and having a certain amount of pragmatism/ ruthlessness can be advantageous - e.g. Dany in Astapor and Vaes Dothrak - but pure cynicism disconnected from any greater moral project has been having a really tough time of it in the show since the end of season 4. 

- Tywin was killed by his own son because his own conception of family was so corrosive and devoid of any morals that he thought it was ok to have his son executed to ensure he would not become his heir. The world doesn't work that way. Not everyone is so cynical. People care about things and his other son cared enough about real family and real personal relations that he set brother free which ultimately led to his demise. 

- Roose - a person even more cynical than Tywin. But if your willing to betray your own King and stab him, than what morals, what limits what norms are you communicating to your son is important? None really. And ultimately his son felt no compunction about doing the same thing to him in order to ensure his own position. 

- Walder Frey - a man like Roose who was willing to break a sacred commitment - guest right - in order to massacre a family to advance his position. He put poison out into the world that ended up boomeranging on to him when a member of the family he tried to eliminate came looking for revenge to not just destroy him but his entire male line.

- Ramsey - Treated the world as a sick game and fellow human beings as merely a tool for his own enjoyment including his wife. That wife ends up escaping and coming back to destroy him with an army that decided to fight for her. 

These are just some examples but ultimatley all of them are examples in the show of the most cynical being toppled in large part because their own actions set up a series of events that lead to their demise. 

In the end, I am sure we will be able to add Cersei and Euron to this list.  

And then perhaps more important than just those individual examples, is the idea of Ned vs. Tywin. Sure Ned was killed off early in part because he wouldn't play by the cynical rules of other. But compare the legacies of the two men. Ned because of the way he lived his life left a legacy that is going to save the world.

The key members of the Dragon and the Wolf alliance were all positively influenced by Ned and his lessons either directly because they decided to live their lives in a certain way in response to his teachings (e.g. Jon) or indirectly because they were saved by decisions and fights he picked (e.g. Dany very well could have been killed had they decided to try and execute her right away since Jorah still had not had the time to develop the relationship with her that led him to interfere). This is in marked contrast to Twyin whose legacy at this point is a daughter so warped and corrupted by his teachings that she is willing to risk the world burning if it means a slightly greater chance of holding on to power. 

In a world where we all die (''all men must die") - even the mighty like Tywin Lannister - what is truly important are the choices we make, how we decide to live, what we decide to value ("all men must serve") and how we decide to face our mortality ("death is the enemy, the first enemy and the last, but we must still fight it"). Nothing really hits this home than how Ned and Tywin lived their lives and what the people impacted by those lives are choosing to do in the face of an existential threat. 

 

 

The 'legacy' argument works for Ned and Tywin, sort of, but falls apart for Robb, which is sad, because it was one of the biggest examples in the books (the Northmen coming together and conspiring to unseat Roose Bolton because of their love for the Starks, instead of Roose falling because Ramsay decided to take advantage of Roose's only moment of humanity followed by the northmen mostly rallying to his side because kinslaying is cool), who is treated by every northerner with a pulse like a bloody moron, to the point where they seemingly preferred a sadistic, kinslaying madman, and would proceed to become the most fickle, undecided allies ever, making you wonder why Ned's legacy and Robb's subsequent legacy can even count as having an effect.

Similarly, Ramsay didn't lose because he was hated. He lost because Sansa had Littlefinger on her side, who's cynically attempting to make her his pawn (though the Vale Lords genuinely liked her, credit where it is due). And while I appreciate they attempted to have Ned's legacy appreciated explicitly with Jon mentioning he's upholding Ned's values no matter what at the parlay, it falls apart because 1: He implies that the act of being good got Ned killed, as everyone seems to, instead of attributing Joffrey's random dickery, and 2: He's using it to justify his own idiocy. So once again, credit where it is due for effort, but it falls short in my opinion.

It gets worse with Doran, who did nothing but try to uphold peace for Dorne, and for all we know, his legacy is WEAK MAN and his son is WEAK BOY, their soldiers let a bunch of bastards kill and usurp him, and we don't even know what legacy Ellaria and the Sand Sneks have left on Dorne, especially given it was not their decisions that fucked them over in the end, but Deus ex Euron, but sadly we do know D & D won't explore this because they understandably want to forget Dorne ever existed.

But I will give credit where it is due. They're perhaps actually trying to portray a somewhat non-cynical theme here... at times.

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