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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jabul Said: The main thing is that a monarch communicates with his or her kingdom.

 

1. It's not Dany's kingdom, and she isn't their monarch.

2. Monarch of 7K is Cersei. So even if Dany will send ravens all over Westeros, like it was done by

 Aegon,

3. those people that will recive her messages, will ignore her. They are not afraid that she may come to get them, for not submitting to her. Because even though she has 3 grown dragons, as Aegon had, prior he decided to conquir Westeros, Targaryens lived at Dragonstone for 300 years. They had a full court there. People loyal to them.

With passing of time it seems that Tyrion isn't entirely loyal to Dany. He cares too much about wellbeing of his own family.

4. Also when Aegon went into battle, his two sisters with their dragons also went there. And three dragonriders are more efficient than one rider and two rideless dragons. If Dany will be killed, as Tyrior said, one arrow may cost them their entire future. She's alone, so she can't risk.

1. Here you provide a fine example of how to miss the point. As I said, Daenerys wants to be queen, and her advisers want her to be queen. The fact that she cannot currently claim to have control of the kingdom is irrelevant. Stannis didn't control much more than Dragonstone when he sent out his letter. Aegon didn't have control when he sent forth his ravens to lords great and small. 

2. Clearly false. Cersei can't claim to have solid control even of the Reach and the Riverlands. She certainly isn't monarch of the 7K. The fact that you are sitting on a throne doesn't make you a monarch. Has even one ruler of one kingdom sworn fealty to the "queen" in King's Landing? The Unsullied took CR. Did that make Daenerys Warden of the West? 

3. I really would like to know who does these public opinion surveys for you. Is there some Westerosi polling service that the rest of us haven't heard about? How do you know that the people who receive her message will not be afraid of her? Sorry, but your statement here is ridiculous. Just about the entire basis for anti-Dany propaganda put forth by the Lannisters is fear. Are you actually trying to say that people will support Cersei because they fear, say, the Unsullied, but won't support Daenerys because they don't fear the Dothraki and the dragons? If you aren't trying to maintain something like that, then what is the actual nature of your argument? At any rate, Dany's letter would not have to emphasize threats. As I said, it should include things like the reasons why Cersei's rule is not legitimate. 

Aegon had a full court? And Daenerys Targaryen is currently living in an empty castle? I honestly don't know what your point is here. Do you have one? We read in The World of Ice and Fire:

"Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small."

This was just before the invasion. We also read that the original invasion force was small. It is extremely likely that Dany has more support in Westeros than Aegon did. She most definitely has a larger army. What does it mean then to say "They had a full court there. People loyal to them"?

4. Dany is not alone, and Dany did risk riding her dragon into battle. Three dragons is three more than anyone else has. Even two (her number now) is two more than anyone in the south has. The young queen's enemies can't be confident that there is not and will not be another rider. Indeed, by the end of Season 7, it looks like we have a very good candidate for a second rider. 

 

Jabul said: It is flat out ridiculous that Tyrion the Formerly Intelligent needs the recommendation of a red priestess before he tries to communicate with places like Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

3. Looks like he indeed is a traitor. Because nearly all his advices are useless.

...

Tyrion could be a traitor, but I doubt it. More likely, his loyalties are still just a bit uncertain. It's hard to believe he was actively trying to help Cersei. We'll learn more in Season 8. Anyhow, the Imp's trustworthiness is not the most important thing in this case. No one tells Daenerys Targaryen to send messages to lords great and small--not Varys, not Olenna, not the Sand Snakes. Hell, the young woman who wants to rule should have been able to figure the matter out for herself. And then there is Missandei. Up until this season, she was intelligent. She wouldn't know much about Westerosi tradition, but she should be able to put two and two together. With people telling her queen how much the lords despise the Lannister pretender, it is only natural that the queen should communicate with these lords. 

The best explanation is the one that I have offered: a very large plot hole. The show runners arranged for the dragon queen and her team to suffer massive unexplained brain damage in the off season. 

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On 20.09.2017 at 7:10 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

And what was shown, given you're once again being a smarmy git and implying that we're all stupid for not worshipping D & D as flawless writers and seeing all the obvious 'off screen development'?

I'm not implying that anyones stupid. Also I don't worship D&D. And I don't think that their writing is flawless. Furthermore if in the end of GOT they will kill Jon or Dany, and I won't like the way they will execute this, I will find them, and off them myself -_-

 

As said in chinese proverb (or was it said by Buddha?) - I can show you directions, but the way, you need to find yourself.

1. Septa Unella. 2. Events in Tommen's room (before and after explosion).

If you won't/can't/unable to interpret subtext of what was shown in scenes with those two characters, then there's no point for me to further explain it to you. Because nevertheless you will still deny meaning of those implications, unless you will realise their meaning on your own.

 

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On 20.09.2017 at 10:13 PM, darmody said:

Also, we've seen that general coldness follows the White Walkers, and possibly the Night King himself has demonstrated the special magical skill of Cold Touch®. They didn't refreeze the lake quicker why? 

Because he wasn't there. NK and WW arrived to that lake at night, or closer to morning. They weren't among wights that attacked Jon and Co. And later when it was shown that wights surrownded lake, there was no WW among them.

Also wights' behaviour during first attack imply that there was no WW leading them. I have a theory that wights on their own, are less intelligent, than those that are lead by WW. I posted in some other thread description of several events that strongly suggest it.

On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

But it's bad writing either way, because not only are we not shown Cersei organizing a "Black Guard," it was impossible for her to do so without her enemies noticing.

Her husband for 17 years haven't noticed that she was fucking with her brother. And that his children are not his children :rolleyes: And this bad writing was done by GRRM. But no one ever complained about implausibility of this.

On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

If she had secret allies all along

Servants, not allies.

On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

We weren't shown anyone besides the Monster Squad on Cersei's side, and no one else had any reason to be on her side.

The reason to be on her side is that she's a Queen. And after her last child went against her, she finally decided to really become one (i.e. Queen), act like one, and take power in her own hands.

On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

We have two problems, here. One is that Secret Team Cersei, deduced into existence by your imagination, wasn't shown to exist. Not even long after D&D's beloved Shock Factor® is no longer an issue.

Servants serve. They are nameless, and faceless. There's no reason to introduce any of them. They are insignificant. They only serve. And she will keep them at that level. Because Cersei learned the hard way, that giving power to nobody is dangerous (High Sparrow). After powerful allies betrayed Cersei (her uncle, Tommen, etc), and caused her to go thru walk of shame, she finally got it, that she can count only on herself. And that if she wants other people to do something for her, it isn't the best way to exalt them, because when they will get to top, they will facilitate their own interests, and not hers. 

She finally seen the light.

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The other is that the Secret Team Cersei Theory produces more plotholes than it solves. Because now you have to re-explain the entire Season Six King's Landing storyline as being Everyone But Cersei is a Boob. That's the Season Seven storyline, my friend.

In Season 6 she was alone.

Also she was still in the dark. Metaphorically.

She thought that her son, THE KING, will save her. She thought that her family will save her. She thought that her loyal subjects won't let their Queen to be mistreated and humiliated.

She thought that she is a Queen, and Sparrows can't do to her what they are doing. She never thought about them as dangerous. Even after what they did to Margaery. Cersei thoughtlessly went to their lair. Where she was, absolutely unexpectedly to her, seized by them, and imprisoned.

Until the very last moment she believed/hoped that someone will do something, that it isn't happening, it can't be happening, not to her. But finally she was faced with a choice - to keep pointlessly hoping that some miracle will happen, and she will be finally saved, or to acknowledge that help won't come, that no one will save her. And that to get out of there now, or to ever get out of there, the only way is to do on her own, whatever she can, whatever it takes, even to resolve herself to go on walk of shame. 

After that her entire worldview changed. She decided to never ever let power slip out of her hands. To do whatever to keep herself safe, and on top. That's why when Tommen banned trial by combat, it didn't flipped over her entire world. His betrayal didn't struck her like a lightning. Her newfound self remain always in control. So instead of crying, and screaming, and demanding, the way she would've done before, now she immediately acted and gave order. She's a Queen, so if she wants something to be done, she give command, and her servants execute it. To make this happen, she surrounded herself with servants that are loyal, unquestioning, unwavering, obedient. And Qyburn found for her people like that. (For example maid in S7E3.)

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3 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

But I will defend Megarova by saying that the fact we don't know jack shit about the NK means that our current NK could be part of a succession. The fact WWs come from Craster's babies in the show implies that they do age in the show 'verse, to... a degree. We just don't know if it ends in death and thus a need for a WW succession.

I suppose it's possible White Walkers make copies of themselves, and that the current Night King is the umpteenth iteration of the guy we saw with Leaf(?). It wouldn't exactly be cruel of D&D not to tell us about that, though I'd like to know. 

On the other hand, it would be cruel of them to have the Night King created 50 years ago without telling us. 

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe on Earth that's so, but Planetos has different conditions. Their seasons last for years. While loooong winters did happened on our planet (glacial periods), 10 years long summer all over Earth is impossible.

:bang:

With that logic, nothing in the show ever has to make sense or has to be explained, because of "It's not Earth, it's Planetos. Things work differently there." Perhaps Planetos-ravens can fly at 20.000 mph when they feel like it, because of reasons "Planetos"?

Also, longer seasons doesn't equate to water refreezing more rapidly either...at least not on Earth.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

It indicates NOTHING. He had spears. All the rest is just assumptions. Why should someone's assumptions be considered as a canon? Just because?

It is indeed assumptions, but the fact that he had exactly three ice-javelins (one for each dragon) makes this theory more credible.
Trying to rationalize something we perceive as dumb is a normal thing to do. 

Quote

She was sick because elves are magical creatures that draw their life force from nature, or rather natural magic. When Saruman and someone at Mordor (or wherever. I'm not an expert in LotR, don't remember all their names or locations) created more and more orks and other dark creatures, their existence polluted world. And natural magic diminished.

If this was true, then all elves would start to get sick during the events of LotR. This sickness is focused on Arwen for a reason: Tolkien-elves can actually die from heartbreak, and Arwens heart got closer and closer to breaking, that's why she got "sick", or as Elrond said, was "dying".
She loved Aragorn, she wanted to spend the rest of her mortal life with him. Her father wanted to prevent this and have her sail west instead, and the more likely the chance that she would never see Aragorn again, the closer her heart came to breaking.

 

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3 hours ago, darmody said:

I suppose it's possible White Walkers make copies of themselves, and that the current Night King is the umpteenth iteration of the guy we saw with Leaf(?). It wouldn't exactly be cruel of D&D not to tell us about that, though I'd like to know. 

On the other hand, it would be cruel of them to have the Night King created 50 years ago without telling us. 

As I said, if I were a betting man, I'd go with occam's razor; the shown origin of the WWs is also the NK's origin because... you know, fantasy trope #9001; the progenitor is also the King.

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5 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

As I said, if I were a betting man, I'd go with occam's razor; the shown origin of the WWs is also the NK's origin because... you know, fantasy trope #9001; the progenitor is also the King.

I agree. I have no reason to think otherwise. Especially since the actor coverted by the children is the actor who plays the NK

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14 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

As I said, if I were a betting man, I'd go with occam's razor; the shown origin of the WWs is also the NK's origin because... you know, fantasy trope #9001; the progenitor is also the King.

All right, the famous razor. I was wondering if it might not show up in this discussion. I'm glad it has. In one of the fine bits of dialogue in Westworld, Bernard Lowe tells Dr. Robert Ford that the problems in the park seem to be due to sabotage. “It’s the simplest solution.” Ford Replies: 

“Ah, Mr. Occam's razor. The problem, Bernard, is that what you and I do is so complicated. We practice witchcraft. We speak the right words. Then we create life itself... out of chaos. William of Occam was a 13th century monk. He can't help us now, Bernard. He would have us burned at the stake.”

In a way, what we do is also extremely complicated. "We," in this case, however, are the fans, critics, posters on various threads...The world of Game of Thrones and the characters in it aren't all that complicated. Mr. Occam's razor is still quite handy. This is very much the case for the current thread. One can come up with all kinds of convoluted explanations as to why the lords of the Reach act in ignorance of their own history and against their own interest, why the definite hatred of Cersei in KL doesn't cause her significant problems, how it is that Daenerys and her advisers have become so stupid, and so on. Some of these explanations have a degree of plausibility. Some of them show creativity. However, trying to accept all of them is just too much of a burden. A simpler and vastly better explanation is available: poor writing. 

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8 minutes ago, Jabul said:

All right, the famous razor. I was wondering if it might not show up in this discussion. I'm glad it has. In one of the fine bits of dialogue in Westworld, Bernard Lowe tells Dr. Robert Ford that the problems in the park seem to be due to sabotage. “It’s the simplest solution.” Ford Replies: 

“Ah, Mr. Occam's razor. The problem, Bernard, is that what you and I do is so complicated. We practice witchcraft. We speak the right words. Then we create life itself... out of chaos. William of Occam was a 13th century monk. He can't help us now, Bernard. He would have us burned at the stake.”

In a way, what we do is also extremely complicated. "We," in this case, however, are the fans, critics, posters on various threads...The world of Game of Thrones and the characters in it aren't all that complicated. Mr. Occam's razor is still quite handy. This is very much the case for the current thread. One can come up with all kinds of convoluted explanations as to why the lords of the Reach act in ignorance of their own history and against their own interest, why the definite hatred of Cersei in KL doesn't cause her significant problems, how it is that Daenerys and her advisers have become so stupid, and so one. Some of these explanations have a degree of plausibility. Some of them show creativity. However, trying to accept all of them is just too much of a burden. A simpler and vastly better explanation is available: poor writing. 

Exactly. Honeypotting can be fun, and is varying levels of plausible, but to treat one's honeypots as fact and others as 'stupid' for not seeing them, when there's the easy and probably-correct option of bad writing? It's... eh, annoying to me.

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On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

Kevan, Pycelle, and literally everyone else thought Cersei's back was against the wall (not that wall) and she had no friends and no hope after trial by combat was eliminated.

Kevan and Pycelle weren't even on her side, even before she was imprisoned. They switched sides when Tommen became king. Though the thing is, is that they are NOT on Tommen's side. They are on their own side. They decided to stop facilitating Cersei's interestets, and begin following their own interests. Both of them were using Tommen to rise to top. When they were Cersei's allies, she was using them, they were serving to her, but she was doing what she wanted, she was the one in charge. But in case with Tommen, they can easily make him do what they want, furthermore that spineless idiot will be thinking that it was his own idea. Examples:

S6E4.

CUT TO: RED KEEP – TOMMEN'S CHAMBER

CERSEI is walking down the hall to TOMMEN’s chamber. She hears MAESTER PYCELLE talking.

MAESTER PYCELLE: And now, how to avert disaster with our current predicament. This High Sparrow. I have dealt with fanatics of every description, Your Grace. Not setting them off, that’s the most important thing. You are beset with enemies both within and without.

CERSEI enters the room

CERSEI: What are you doing here?

MAESTER PYCELLE: I am advising the king on our current predicament.

CERSEi: Leave.

MAESTER PYCELL: I am a member of the Small Council. The king’s small --

CERSEI: Is this a Small Council meeting?

MAESTER PYCELL: Obviously not. I’m here to lend my wisdom and my support.

TOMMEN: Thank you for your counsel, Grand Maester. That will be all for now.

MAESTER PYCELL: Your Grace.

MAESTER PYCELLE hobbles towards the door. As he leaves, he flashes CERSEI a smile. CERSEI closes the door.

CERSEI: Since I’ve missed the past several Small Coucil meetings, I wanted to speak to you about a few things.

TOMMEN: I’ve been thinking about the High Sparrow.

CERSEI: As have we all, unfortunately.

TOMMEN: We need to be careful in dealing with such a man. To prevent things from escalating any further. We have to be careful not to antagonize him. He has Margaery. We can’t put her at risk. He’s dangerous.

 

Tommen is using Picelle's words, and he thinks that it's all his own idea.

 

S6E7.

TOMMEN: When you attack the Faith, you attack the Crown. Anyone who attacks the Crown is unfit to serve as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

JAIME: I’ve been a member of the Kingsguard since before you were born. You don’t have to do this. You don’t have to do anything.
(Jaime understood that Tommen isn't acting on his own, he understood that others manipulated Tommen, and convinced him to do this. So he was trying to reason with Tommen, to let his see that he doesn't have to do what they said to him. He's the King, so if he won't want to do this, he doesn't have to. But Tommen was too spineless and dependent to do anything on his own.)

TOMMEN: I have to answer to the gods.

JAIME: Not when you’re sitting in that chair.

TOMMEN: The Crown’s decision on this matter is final.

JAIME: Will I be walking naked in the streets? Or will I spend a few months in the sept dungeons first to teach me about the gods’ mercy?

TOMMEN and KEVAN look at each other.     <- that's who was the puppeteer pulling Tommen-marionette's strings.

TOMMEN: You have served your house and your king faithfully for many years. And you will continue to do so. But not in this city."

 

Kevan and High Sparrow arranged to get rid of Jaime, to make Cersei helpless. But they miscalculated. Cersei wasn't alone, and she wasn't letting her enemies to stay unpunished.

 

S6E7.

"OLENNA: What’ll you do, then? You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that. The rest of your family have abandoned you. The people despise you. You’re surrounded by enemies, thousands of them. You’re going to kill them all by yourself? You’ve lost, Cersei. It’s the only joy I can find in all this misery."

Obviously that she wasn't going to kill all of her enemies all by herself. Widfire is a good tool, but it alone wouldn't be able to resolve all of her problems. So she also prepared other means. What Olenna said basically meant - "You're alone. And alone you can't get rid of all of your enemies." So the way to resolve this problem is to get support. And she was actively doing it thruout entire Season 6.

S6E1.

"CERSEI: Of course I do. You told me yourself when Father died. You said we had to stay together. You said people would try to tear us apart, take what’s ours. That was a prophecy, too. I didn’t listen to you, and everything you said came true.

JAIME places his hand on CERSEI’s cheek..

JAIME: Fuck prophecy. Fuck fate.
Fuck everyone who isn’t us. We’re the only ones who matter, the only ones in this world. And everything they’ve taken from us, we’re going to take back and more.

JAIME embraces CERSEI.

JAIME: We’re going to take everything there is.
"

It wasn't just words, or empty threats.

S6E3.

"QYBURN: Now remember, if any of your friends like sweets or need help, they can always come to me. All I need in return are whispers.

The door opens. GREGOR walks in, followed by JAIME and CERSEI.

QYBURN: No need to be afraid. This is Ser Gregor. He’s friends with all my friends."

 

"CERSEI: Varys's little birds?

QYBURN: Your little birds now, your Grace."

<- she created a Birds Network all over Westeros. And She went waaaaaaaay further than Varys while using them.

She also used them to kill. Pycelle. Lancel Lannister. But not ONLY for that.

If you have a cell phone you wouldn't limit its use to just making calls and sending SMS, would you? :huh: You will be also using its other functions like making photos and videos, listening music, playing games, connecting to the Web; you will be using its calendar, organizer, calculator, alarm clock; using it as flashlight, etc. Some creative people even invented unconventional ways to use cell phones. For example to boil eggs with it, or fry popcorn.   

Cersei is a creative person (for example the way she dealt with Sand Mom and her girl). So aside from using her Birds as informants and assasins, she also used them to recruit drones for her Black Guards, and servants for Queen's Black Court. Some people, that she recruited with Qyburn's help, thru her Birds Network, were new, but some of them were already serving in Red Keep. She just offered them a choice - either to switch to her side, or to die.

Of course she didn't just went to any of them directly, and just blatantly said to them - "Bend the knee to me, or die". No. She used her spy network to carefully tread political waters in Red Keep's court. And after Birds gathered enough information, to make an approximate layout of who is who in her surroundings, she and Qyburn decided to whom should they make a job offer.

(Varys also, in special cases, used his Birds for other work, aside from gathering info. For example thru them he hired people that were supposed to poison Dany, one of them also handed to Barristan Selmy scroll with royal pardon to Jorah, signed by King Robert.)

And courtiers chose Cersei as their rules over Tommen, because Tommen is a bad king. Because he is spineless, brainless idiot without his own opinion. Basically Tommen is a shmoo.

"The Shmoo is a small lovable creature. It laid eggs, gave milk, and when looked at as though you would like to eat it, it dies out of sheer will to please you. The shmoo loved to be eaten and could taste like any food you desire. Shmoo hide, cut thin, made a fine leather. Even shmoo whiskers made excellent toothpicks. The shmoo had the power to supply the whole world with all of its' wants and needs. The shmoo reproduces asexually, and only requires air to stay alive. When you need something, go find yourself a shmoo."

Also ANYONE can become Tommen's advisor. Anyone can come up to him, and whisper into his ear. Today one person will tell him, lets do this. And he will announce all over Seven Kingdoms - "We are going to do this". Tomorrow someone else will tell him, lets do that, and he will order - "From now on we are doing that". King Tommen Shmoo had the power, but the problem is, is that ANYONE was able to use and abuse this power.

King is supposed to be a sovereign <- and THAT, Tommen was not.

On 20.09.2017 at 10:56 PM, darmody said:

Your fan-fiction has them all as morons who overlooked Cersei's employment of conventional backstabbing moves. Why were they so confident that she was out of the game? Was the real story about their hubris? They were all as blind and dumb as S-7 Littlefinger and Varys

 

when did Olestra suddenly get so incompetent?

S6E7. "OLENNA: You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that".

High Sparrow, Tommen, Olenna, Kevan, Pycelle, and others thought that when they gotten rid of Jaime, and prohibited trial by combat, by usage of this means they took away fangs and claws of lioness Cersei, and turned her into harmless fluffy kitten.

They were so confident that she was out of the game, because they underestimated her, and what she is capable of. They thought that victory is already theirs, and thus they relaxed. <- And it's not as if things like this happened for the first time in GOT.

Ramsay Bolton vs Jon Snow, Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain, Sword of the Morning Ser Arthur Dayne vs backstabber, Tywin Lannister vs Tyrion and his crossbow, Dany with her dragons vs Night's King and his ice-spears.  

Quote

Their big mistake was to overlook the existence of wildfire. That was the story.

S6E7. "CERSEI: They have no idea how strong we are. No idea what we’re going to do to them." <- she wasn't referring to wildfire only. She had other trump cards up her sleeve.

Cersei's enemies haven't noticed active recruitment ongoing under their noses, because they weren't spying after her, nor after Qyburn. Because - what for? She's done for. All that's left, to get rid of her entirely, is just a mere formalities. Her trial was just a public spectacle to cement her doom.

They knew about wildfire, but they thought that while Cersei is under house arrest, she can't do anything. And they were ready to fight against Mountain. And they thought that Qyburn isn't posing any serious threat, and that there's no one else on Cersei's side.

Though none of them knew about existence of Birds Network. So how were they supposed to know that Cersei was plotting something? They knew nothing. While those kids were freely going in and out of Red Keep, unnoticed, whenever they wanted. And nobody intercepted them, or asked any questions. Even when one of Birds went to Pycelle, told him that King Tommen is summoning him, and escorted him to Qyburn's dungeon, he didn't asked her "Little girl, who the fuck are you? This is crown's castle, how did you get in here?". Brother Lancel was more attentive, but even he underestimated possible threat. When he saw that boy, he realised that something fishy is going on, because random kids shouldn't be near places like Baelor's Sept during Queen's trial.

Also this implies that Cersei used other people aside from Birds:   

"CERSEI (to QYBURN): Don’t stop at the city. I want little birds in Dorne, in Highgarden, in the North. If someone is planning on making our losses their gains I want to hear it. If someone is laughing at the queen who walk naked through the streets covered in shit, I want to hear. I want to know who they are. I want to know where they are."

Why does she want to know WHO and WHERE they are? Just because?

When in first episode the guy in KL were insulting Cersei, and saying crude jokes about her, she sent the Mountain to get rid of him. But would she send Mountain to get rid of every and single one of her offenders? In KL alone there lives 1 million people.

She can't stay for long without the Mountain's protection. So she won't be sending him to deal with all of her offenders. She will send to deal with them her other people. People hired in Dorne, In Highgarden, in the North, and all over Westeros. People hired thru her Birds Network. And she sent the Mountain to deal with that guy, because he was close in KL, and he was especially offensive, so to deal with him Cersei sent her best enforcer.

Cersei's enemies knew about existence of wildfire. Who didn't? :rolleyes: After Tyrion's victory in Blackwater Bay it was all over news ^_^ But they weren't aware that Cersei had other people on her side, not only Qyburn and the Mountain.

Qyburn and Birds were killing Pycelle. One of the Birds offed Brother Lancel, and lighted a candle to set jars on fire. The Mountain secured King Tommen. But who siezed septa Unella? Who was protecting Cersei?

While Mountain was guarding Tommen, why non of servants or guards haven't approached Cersei, and forcefully escorted her to the Sept for her trial? Would she really let herself be unprotected, risking that someone can come after her, while Mountain is away? If someone came to her chamber, and made her to go to the Sept, then her great plan was done for.

When Cersei didn't came to the Sept, the High Sparrow sent Brother Lannister to get her. But what if he had sent after her dozens of Sparrows? What if he had sent them after Cersei, sooner than her Bird was ready to light it up?

Cersei is not the kind of person to leave everything to the mercy of fate, or be decided by chance. By the morning of trial's day (aside from Tommen, Pycelle and septa Unella) everyone in the Red Keep were either on Cersei's side, or dead, or on their way to the Sept (which is the same thing as being dead, only a bit delayed).

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50 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Kevan and Pycelle weren't even on her side, even before she was imprisoned. They switched sides when Tommen became king. Though the thing is, is that they are NOT on Tommen's side. They are on their own side. They decided to stop facilitating Cersei's interestets, and begin following their own interests. Both of them were using Tommen to rise to top. When they were Cersei's allies, she was using them, they were serving to her, but she was doing what she wanted, she was the one in charge. But in case with Tommen, they can easily make him do what they want, furthermore that spineless idiot will be thinking that it was his own idea. Examples:

S6E4.

CUT TO: RED KEEP – TOMMEN'S CHAMBER

CERSEI is walking down the hall to TOMMEN’s chamber. She hears MAESTER PYCELLE talking.

MAESTER PYCELLE: And now, how to avert disaster with our current predicament. This High Sparrow. I have dealt with fanatics of every description, Your Grace. Not setting them off, that’s the most important thing. You are beset with enemies both within and without.

CERSEI enters the room

CERSEI: What are you doing here?

MAESTER PYCELLE: I am advising the king on our current predicament.

CERSEi: Leave.

MAESTER PYCELL: I am a member of the Small Council. The king’s small --

CERSEI: Is this a Small Council meeting?

MAESTER PYCELL: Obviously not. I’m here to lend my wisdom and my support.

TOMMEN: Thank you for your counsel, Grand Maester. That will be all for now.

MAESTER PYCELL: Your Grace.

MAESTER PYCELLE hobbles towards the door. As he leaves, he flashes CERSEI a smile. CERSEI closes the door.

CERSEI: Since I’ve missed the past several Small Coucil meetings, I wanted to speak to you about a few things.

TOMMEN: I’ve been thinking about the High Sparrow.

CERSEI: As have we all, unfortunately.

TOMMEN: We need to be careful in dealing with such a man. To prevent things from escalating any further. We have to be careful not to antagonize him. He has Margaery. We can’t put her at risk. He’s dangerous.

 

Tommen is using Picelle's words, and he thinks that it's all his own idea.

 

S6E7.

TOMMEN: When you attack the Faith, you attack the Crown. Anyone who attacks the Crown is unfit to serve as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

JAIME: I’ve been a member of the Kingsguard since before you were born. You don’t have to do this. You don’t have to do anything.
(Jaime understood that Tommen isn't acting on his own, he understood that others manipulated Tommen, and convinced him to do this. So he was trying to reason with Tommen, to let his see that he doesn't have to do what they said to him. He's the King, so if he won't want to do this, he doesn't have to. But Tommen was too spineless and dependent to do anything on his own.)

TOMMEN: I have to answer to the gods.

JAIME: Not when you’re sitting in that chair.

TOMMEN: The Crown’s decision on this matter is final.

JAIME: Will I be walking naked in the streets? Or will I spend a few months in the sept dungeons first to teach me about the gods’ mercy?

TOMMEN and KEVAN look at each other.     <- that's who was the puppeteer pulling Tommen-marionette's strings.

TOMMEN: You have served your house and your king faithfully for many years. And you will continue to do so. But not in this city."

 

Kevan and High Sparrow arranged to get rid of Jaime, to make Cersei helpless. But they miscalculated. Cersei wasn't alone, and she wasn't letting her enemies to stay unpunished.

 

S6E7.

"OLENNA: What’ll you do, then? You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that. The rest of your family have abandoned you. The people despise you. You’re surrounded by enemies, thousands of them. You’re going to kill them all by yourself? You’ve lost, Cersei. It’s the only joy I can find in all this misery."

Obviously that she wasn't going to kill all of her enemies all by herself. Widfire is a good tool, but it alone wouldn't be able to resolve all of her problems. So she also prepared other means. What Olenna said basically meant - "You're alone. And alone you can't get rid of all of your enemies." So the way to resolve this problem is to get support. And she was actively doing it thruout entire Season 6.

S6E1.

"CERSEI: Of course I do. You told me yourself when Father died. You said we had to stay together. You said people would try to tear us apart, take what’s ours. That was a prophecy, too. I didn’t listen to you, and everything you said came true.

JAIME places his hand on CERSEI’s cheek..

JAIME: Fuck prophecy. Fuck fate.
Fuck everyone who isn’t us. We’re the only ones who matter, the only ones in this world. And everything they’ve taken from us, we’re going to take back and more.

JAIME embraces CERSEI.

JAIME: We’re going to take everything there is.
"

It wasn't just words, or empty threats.

S6E3.

"QYBURN: Now remember, if any of your friends like sweets or need help, they can always come to me. All I need in return are whispers.

The door opens. GREGOR walks in, followed by JAIME and CERSEI.

QYBURN: No need to be afraid. This is Ser Gregor. He’s friends with all my friends."

 

"CERSEI: Varys's little birds?

QYBURN: Your little birds now, your Grace."

<- she created a Birds Network all over Westeros. And She went waaaaaaaay further than Varys while using them.

She also used them to kill. Pycelle. Lancel Lannister. But not ONLY for that.

If you have a cell phone you wouldn't limit its use to just making calls and sending SMS, would you? :huh: You will be also using its other functions like making photos and videos, listening music, playing games, connecting to the Web; you will be using its calendar, organizer, calculator, alarm clock; using it as flashlight, etc. Some creative people even invented unconventional ways to use cell phones. For example to boil eggs with it, or fry popcorn.   

Cersei is a creative person (for example the way she dealt with Sand Mom and her girl). So aside from using her Birds as informants and assasins, she also used them to recruit drones for her Black Guards, and servants for Queen's Black Court. Some people, that she recruited with Qyburn's help, thru her Birds Network, were new, but some of them were already serving in Red Keep. She just offered them a choice - either to switch to her side, or to die.

Of course she didn't just went to any of them directly, and just blatantly said to them - "Bend the knee to me, or die". No. She used her spy network to carefully tread political waters in Red Keep's court. And after Birds gathered enough information, to make an approximate layout of who is who in her surroundings, she and Qyburn decided to whom should they make a job offer.

(Varys also, in special cases, used his Birds for other work, aside from gathering info. For example thru them he hired people that were supposed to poison Dany, one of them also handed to Barristan Selmy scroll with royal pardon to Jorah, signed by King Robert.)

And courtiers chose Cersei as their rules over Tommen, because Tommen is a bad king. Because he is spineless, brainless idiot without his own opinion. Basically Tommen is a shmoo.

"The Shmoo is a small lovable creature. It laid eggs, gave milk, and when looked at as though you would like to eat it, it dies out of sheer will to please you. The shmoo loved to be eaten and could taste like any food you desire. Shmoo hide, cut thin, made a fine leather. Even shmoo whiskers made excellent toothpicks. The shmoo had the power to supply the whole world with all of its' wants and needs. The shmoo reproduces asexually, and only requires air to stay alive. When you need something, go find yourself a shmoo."

Also ANYONE can become Tommen's advisor. Anyone can come up to him, and whisper into his ear. Today one person will tell him, lets do this. And he will announce all over Seven Kingdoms - "We are going to do this". Tomorrow someone else will tell him, lets do that, and he will order - "From now on we are doing that". King Tommen Shmoo had the power, but the problem is, is that ANYONE was able to use and abuse this power.

King is supposed to be a sovereign <- and THAT, Tommen was not.

S6E7. "OLENNA: You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that".

High Sparrow, Tommen, Olenna, Kevan, Pycelle, and others thought that when they gotten rid of Jaime, and prohibited trial by combat, by usage of this means they took away fangs and claws of lioness Cersei, and turned her into harmless fluffy kitten.

They were so confident that she was out of the game, because they underestimated her, and what she is capable of. They thought that victory is already theirs, and thus they relaxed. <- And it's not as if things like this happened for the first time in GOT.

Ramsay Bolton vs Jon Snow, Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain, Sword of the Morning Ser Arthur Dayne vs backstabber, Tywin Lannister vs Tyrion and his crossbow, Dany with her dragons vs Night's King and his ice-spears.  

S6E7. "CERSEI: They have no idea how strong we are. No idea what we’re going to do to them." <- she wasn't referring to wildfire only. She had other trump cards up her sleeve.

Cersei's enemies haven't noticed active recruitment ongoing under their noses, because they weren't spying after her, nor after Qyburn. Because - what for? She's done for. All that's left, to get rid of her entirely, is just a mere formalities. Her trial was just a public spectacle to cement her doom.

They knew about wildfire, but they thought that while Cersei is under house arrest, she can't do anything. And they were ready to fight against Mountain. And they thought that Qyburn isn't posing any serious threat, and that there's no one else on Cersei's side.

Though none of them knew about existence of Birds Network. So how were they supposed to know that Cersei was plotting something? They knew nothing. While those kids were freely going in and out of Red Keep, unnoticed, whenever they wanted. And nobody intercepted them, or asked any questions. Even when one of Birds went to Pycelle, told him that King Tommen is summoning him, and escorted him to Qyburn's dungeon, he didn't asked her "Little girl, who the fuck are you? This is crown's castle, how did you get in here?". Brother Lancel was more attentive, but even he underestimated possible threat. When he saw that boy, he realised that something fishy is going on, because random kids shouldn't be near places like Baelor's Sept during Queen's trial.

Also this implies that Cersei used other people aside from Birds:   

"CERSEI (to QYBURN): Don’t stop at the city. I want little birds in Dorne, in Highgarden, in the North. If someone is planning on making our losses their gains I want to hear it. If someone is laughing at the queen who walk naked through the streets covered in shit, I want to hear. I want to know who they are. I want to know where they are."

Why does she want to know WHO and WHERE they are? Just because?

When in first episode the guy in KL were insulting Cersei, and saying crude jokes about her, she sent the Mountain to get rid of him. But would she send Mountain to get rid of every and single one of her offenders? In KL alone there lives 1 million people.

She can't stay for long without the Mountain's protection. So she won't be sending him to deal with all of her offenders. She will send to deal with them her other people. People hired in Dorne, In Highgarden, in the North, and all over Westeros. People hired thru her Birds Network. And she sent the Mountain to deal with that guy, because he was close in KL, and he was especially offensive, so to deal with him Cersei sent her best enforcer.

Cersei's enemies knew about existence of wildfire. Who didn't? :rolleyes: After Tyrion's victory in Blackwater Bay it was all over news ^_^ But they weren't aware that Cersei had other people on her side, not only Qyburn and the Mountain.

Qyburn and Birds were killing Pycelle. One of the Birds offed Brother Lancel, and lighted a candle to set jars on fire. The Mountain secured King Tommen. But who siezed septa Unella? Who was protecting Cersei?

While Mountain was guarding Tommen, why non of servants or guards haven't approached Cersei, and forcefully escorted her to the Sept for her trial? Would she really let herself be unprotected, risking that someone can come after her, while Mountain is away? If someone came to her chamber, and made her to go to the Sept, then her great plan was done for.

When Cersei didn't came to the Sept, the High Sparrow sent Brother Lannister to get her. But what if he had sent after her dozens of Sparrows? What if he had sent them after Cersei, sooner than her Bird was ready to light it up?

Cersei is not the kind of person to leave everything to the mercy of fate, or be decided by chance. By the morning of trial's day (aside from Tommen, Pycelle and septa Unella) everyone in the Red Keep were either on Cersei's side, or dead, or on their way to the Sept (which is the same thing as being dead, only a bit delayed).

Jeez, the way you're rewriting Season 6 makes it seem like Cersei's a mary sue that was psychic, knew everything, and thankful had enemies so dumb that of course they wouldn't watch the Queen Regent about to be on trial for regicide and is currently under house arrest! No-one ever watches those people to make sure they do a runner, do they?

So in D & D's version, Cersei somewhat foreshadows that Qyburn has one last trick up their sleeve, she seems like she's doomed but her ace up her sleeve saves her, but unfortunately D & D also wanted a bit of fanservice, so they copy-pasted Varys's lines to Kevan from the books so Qyburn could say them while killing Pycelle on the way to the trial he knew was going to kill all present anyway, and Septa Unella, shame lady,gets a gruesome death to appeal to the vengeance-driven fans.

Orrrrrr... your version, where everyone except Cersei's allies are morons, the Mountain is a very smart, recruiting kind of guy, and no-one's watching the subject of one of the biggest regicide trials since Tyrion's one while she organises a sprawling secret guard completely offscreen to murder all of the Tyrell forces and spare sparrows post-septsplosion. She becomes a mary-sue (that's not even evident as such on-screen, because Megarova-style writing involves assuming everyone has ninety complex plans going on at once and they all ultimately look like bad writing from what's actually seen, but Megarova trusts the viewers to pick up on her completely undepicted super-genius planning) that has never ever done anything short-sighted or leaves things out of her control (like arming the Faith Militant), and thus plans absolutely everything like clockwork, not being backed into a corner by the outlawing of trial by combat but instead having flawlessly predicted everything that was going to happen down to the septsplosian, as you see, she organise the black guard to clean up loose ends before it was evident she'd even need to blow up her trial.

So we either go for a simple, somewhat streamlined, screen-friendly script that, while lazy and missing a few beats here and there, still passes as Hollywood-worthy, standard hackneyed stuff with a somewhat decent twist, or we have the version where it assumes every viewer thinks exactly like Megarova and assigns overly complex, omni-layered planning while smartening up and dumbing down characters on a whim, so ultimately by the end and under Megarova logic, everything was a foregone conclusion from all the obvious three thousand layer plotting that everyone else is moronic for not seeing.

I never thought I'd say this, but you're making D & D look like they deserve their emmys. Yes, the piano was stupid and yes, there were lots of plot holes, but at least D & D went with something that was, on the surface level, comprehensible. Your version's an overcomplicated mess. You realise complex does not necessarily equal good, right?

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On 20.09.2017 at 11:08 PM, Zapho said:

The NK had nothing to lose. It didn't matter to him whether he killed them instantly or 5 days later. But he also had nothing to gain from waiting for no reason. Therefore, he had a reason.

His reason for delay is that he wasn't even there. He came there much later, closer to morning or at night, while Jon and Co were still sleeping.

On 20.09.2017 at 11:38 PM, Einheri said:

Those new people still have to learn how to do their jobs, which takes time.

More than 11 years has passed since the end of the Greyjoy rebellion.

11 more years to teach youngsters of their maritime nation how to build ships.

They were doing it anyway. Because how many other options, for a future employment on Iron Islands, did they had?

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1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Jeez, the way you're rewriting Season 6 makes it seem like Cersei's a mary sue that was psychic, knew everything, and thankful had enemies so dumb that of course they wouldn't watch the Queen Regent about to be on trial for regicide and is currently under house arrest! No-one ever watches those people to make sure they do a runner, do they?

So in D & D's version, Cersei somewhat foreshadows that Qyburn has one last trick up their sleeve, she seems like she's doomed but her ace up her sleeve saves her, but unfortunately D & D also wanted a bit of fanservice, so they copy-pasted Varys's lines to Kevan from the books so Qyburn could say them while killing Pycelle on the way to the trial he knew was going to kill all present anyway, and Septa Unella, shame lady,gets a gruesome death to appeal to the vengeance-driven fans.

Orrrrrr... your version, where everyone except Cersei's allies are morons, the Mountain is a very smart, recruiting kind of guy, and no-one's watching the subject of one of the biggest regicide trials since Tyrion's one while she organises a sprawling secret guard completely offscreen to murder all of the Tyrell forces and spare sparrows post-septsplosion. She becomes a mary-sue (that's not even evident as such on-screen, because Megarova-style writing involves assuming everyone has ninety complex plans going on at once and they all ultimately look like bad writing from what's actually seen, but Megarova trusts the viewers to pick up on her completely undepicted super-genius planning) that has never ever done anything short-sighted or leaves things out of her control (like arming the Faith Militant), and thus plans absolutely everything like clockwork, not being backed into a corner by the outlawing of trial by combat but instead having flawlessly predicted everything that was going to happen down to the septsplosian, as you see, she organise the black guard to clean up loose ends before it was evident she'd even need to blow up her trial.

So we either go for a simple, somewhat streamlined, screen-friendly script that, while lazy and missing a few beats here and there, still passes as Hollywood-worthy, standard hackneyed stuff with a somewhat decent twist, or we have the version where it assumes every viewer thinks exactly like Megarova and assigns overly complex, omni-layered planning while smartening up and dumbing down characters on a whim, so ultimately by the end and under Megarova logic, everything was a foregone conclusion from all the obvious three thousand layer plotting that everyone else is moronic for not seeing.

I never thought I'd say this, but you're making D & D look like they deserve their emmys. Yes, the piano was stupid and yes, there were lots of plot holes, but at least D & D went with something that was, on the surface level, comprehensible. Your version's an overcomplicated mess. You realise complex does not necessarily equal good, right?

I don’t care if there are plot holes or things that don’t quite add up (although would love to discuss what you didn’t like.)

Whatever it is though was all worth it for that twenty minute scene in the sept set to that music. The Winds of Winter was the best GoT episode hands down. 

It doesn’t even matter if it didn’t quite make sense how Arya managed to bake those pies. Seeing her slit Walder Frey’s throat was everything. 

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On 23/09/2017 at 0:27 AM, jcmontea said:

I don’t care if there are plot holes or things that don’t quite add up (although would love to discuss what you didn’t like.)

Whatever it is though was all worth it for that twenty minute scene in the sept set to that music. The Winds of Winter was the best GoT episode hands down. 

It doesn’t even matter if it didn’t quite make sense how Arya managed to bake those pies. Seeing her slit Walder Frey’s throat was everything. 

I guess I don't get the inherent satisfaction of revenge (I consider revenge-based morality a foolish idea that I can understand the majority of humanity falling into, but consider the resultant cycle foolish, much like GRRM seems to think), and so stuff like Walder Frey's throat-slitting and even paedo-Trant's eye-stabbing just... doesn't do it for me. Same with the septsplosian and CG scenes; I get why people roar over it, and it's wonderful to see GoT push the limits of what's acceptable to spend on TV (instead of having decent effects reserved for movies), but I don't get satisfied by that, I get satisfied by a good plot resolution (probably because I prefer reading to watching television, and similarly prefer actively consuming a medium instead of using it to turn off my brain, as most people understandably want to do). It's not a satisfying enough conclusion to someone like me, at least narratively, to justify the contrivances.

As for Cersei's set-up and septsplosion, the main plot-holes are the stuff they do in the sidelines; the wildfire's actually adequately foreshadowed, and the continued misfortunes happening to Cersei work well as a way to back her into a corner. But Lancel chasing after a little boy when he was commanded to retrieve Cersei, Qyburn killing Pycelle so he... couldn't attend the trial where he'd die anyway, Unella being spirited away so Cersei could wineboard her and leave her to the Zombie Mountain, it all felt like a lot of contrivance just for additional spectacle, even though I genuinely liked the imagery they were going for with Lancel's crawl. The idea of a pious maniac who was formerly a wannabe schemer having one last moment to show that, yes, there is human decency and genuine heroism was a nice concept to explore, but did it justify the contrivance of him randomly disobeying the High Sparrow he was willing to mutilate himself for? Not really.

However, one thing about the Septsplosion as a concept that I disliked was what it represented as an exercise in writing. All season, they'd built up plot after plot. Wasted scene after scene of the High Sparrow speaking in ways that could be genuine, could be manipulative. Margaery was up to something, something that she hijacked even her father and grandmother on, despite the fact that with the Tyrell Army there, there was no readily evident reason for her to stick to the piety plan. Tommen and Margaery were apparently in awe of the High Sparrow enough to lose their adjectives. The High Sparrow had set up the idea of a massive sparrow army; the many, while the Tyrell army, the largest in Westeros, were the few. And there was a lot of screen time dedicated to this.

Then you see that D & D never had a plan for what they were really thinking. What was actually going on beneath the subterfuge. They literally just gave the illusion of scheming because... well, GRRM hadn't given them any material that let them know just what the hell the Tyrells were up to in the Faith Militant plot, filled the King's Landing plot with the film equivalent of rainbow packing peanuts (scenes with the appearance of substance, with good and well-known actors saying the lines) before blowing the whole sha-bang up because... well, they couldn't be arsed with any more scheming in King's Landing.

And you can tell they've tired of scheming proper now, as what's the scene after Tommen's suicide? Cersei getting crowned without resistance, Jaime... seemingly looking disappointed but not confronting Cersei (or even confronting her in the next season, something quite annoying as she literally did the thing he tarnished his entire reputation to stop), and a torture porn scene showing how much of a winner Cersei is (once again, I don't find revenge inherently satisfying and prefer plots that actually emphasise the destructive nature of revenge instead).

So basically, I don't consider spectacle, torture porn or 'satisfying' revenge enough to justify it all. It's bad writing as is, but you seem to consider it entertaining bad writing. Each to their own, that's fine, I have more of a problem with people who attribute genius to D & D rather than simply shrugging and saying 'It's Game of Thrones, it's kind of how it is these days, enjoy it for what it is'. And in this case, the Cersei Wildfire plot was not overly inconsistent in the main plot (you know, Cersei's under house arrest, trying to scheme her way out, gets screwed over multiple times but along the way finds out about a last-ditch nuke option, she gets backed into a corner, and nukes the joint), the surrounding implications (scheming? What scheming?, breaks of logic for 'wouldn't it be cool if' logic, glorification of revenge, breaking logic just for torture porn, etc) kind of fuck it over for me.

I still think, even with all the wasted scenes and filler, that the decent acting at least somewhat saved the Season 6 KL plot. The Bad Pussies in Dorne were easily the worst part. D & D sapping the mystique completely out of Dorne, turning it from a complex province with people of varying motives within it into a horny brown-skinned outsider culture filled with pornstar-quality acting, cynical to the point where they used Season 6 to double down on the shitness and have the actress unfortunate enough to have to say 'bad pussy' also be the one to execute the underutilised actor for Areo Hotah and Indira Varma (a decent actress) murdering the fantastic Alexander Siddig, because good actors will never rule Dorne again.

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25 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I guess I don't get the inherent satisfaction of revenge (I consider revenge-based morality a foolish idea that I can understand the majority of humanity falling into, but consider the resultant cycle foolish, much like GRRM seems to think), and so stuff like Walder Frey's throat-slitting and even paedo-Trant's eye-stabbing just... doesn't do it for me. Same with the septsplosian and CG scenes; I get why people roar over it, and it's wonderful to see GoT push the limits of what's acceptable to spend on TV (instead of having decent effects reserved for movies), but I don't get satisfied by that, I get satisfied by a good plot resolution (probably because I prefer reading to watching television, and similarly prefer actively consuming a medium instead of using it to turn off my brain, as most people understandably want to do). It's not a satisfying enough conclusion to someone like me, at least narratively, to justify the contrivances.

Revenge can be a good plot resolution. If you don't feel it emotionally than yea I can see why it won't be satisfying. I get intellectually the problems with it, but on an emotional level it can work and those scenes just worked for me emotionally. No need to over intellectualize it, it just worked emotionally and that is that. 

25 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

As for Cersei's set-up and septsplosion, the main plot-holes are the stuff they do in the sidelines; the wildfire's actually adequately foreshadowed, and the continued misfortunes happening to Cersei work well as a way to back her into a corner. But Lancel chasing after a little boy when he was commanded to retrieve Cersei, Qyburn killing Pycelle so he... couldn't attend the trial where he'd die anyway, Unella being spirited away so Cersei could wineboard her and leave her to the Zombie Mountain, it all felt like a lot of contrivance just for additional spectacle, even though I genuinely liked the imagery they were going for with Lancel's crawl. The idea of a pious maniac who was formerly a wannabe schemer having one last moment to show that, yes, there is human decency and genuine heroism was a nice concept to explore, but did it justify the contrivance of him randomly disobeying the High Sparrow he was willing to mutilate himself for? Not really.

I think Qybrun killed Pycelle because that was Qybrun's revenge. Since season 4 Pycelle had treated Qyburn horribly. I could definitely see why he would want to take him out and see it happen. 

Its funny. The biggest contrivance I felt with the whole thing is what you liked. Lancel''s crawl was ridiculous and the fact that he almost blows out the candle was typical tv/ movie non-sense. The little bird should have killed him. 

25 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

However, one thing about the Septsplosion as a concept that I disliked was what it represented as an exercise in writing. All season, they'd built up plot after plot. Wasted scene after scene of the High Sparrow speaking in ways that could be genuine, could be manipulative. Margaery was up to something, something that she hijacked even her father and grandmother on, despite the fact that with the Tyrell Army there, there was no readily evident reason for her to stick to the piety plan. Tommen and Margaery were apparently in awe of the High Sparrow enough to los their adjuectives. The High Sparrow had set up the idea of a massive sparrow army; the many, while the Tyrell army, the largest in Westeros, were the few. And there was a lot of screen time dedicated to this.

Then you see that D & D never had a plan for what they were really thinking. What was actually going on beneath the subterfuge. They literally just gave the illusion of scheming because... well, GRRM hadn't given them any material that let them know just what the hell the Tyrells were up to in the Faith Militant plot, filled the King's Landing plot with the film equivalent of rainbow packing peanuts (scenes with the appearance of substance, with good and well-known actors saying the lines) before blowing the whole sha-bang up because... well, they couldn't be arsed with any more scheming in King's Landing.

this sounds more like you just didn't like the direction things went than anything else. 

25 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

And you can tell they've tired of scheming proper now, as what's the scene after Tommen's suicide? Cersei getting crowned without resistance, Jaime... seemingly looking disappointed but not confronting Cersei (or even confronting her in the next season, something quite annoying as she literally did the thing he tarnished his entire reputation to stop), and a torture porn scene showing how much of a winner Cersei is (once again, I don't find revenge inherently satisfying and prefer plots that actually emphasise the destructive nature of revenge instead).

So basically, I don't consider spectacle, torture porn or 'satisfying' revenge enough to justify it all. It's bad writing as is, but you seem to consider it entertaining bad writing. Each to their own, that's fine, I have more of a problem with people who attribute genius to D & D rather than simply shrugging and saying 'It's Game of Thrones, it's kind of how it is these days, enjoy it for what it is'. And in this case, the Cersei Wildfire plot was not overly inconsistent in the main plot (you know, Cersei's under house arrest, trying to scheme her way out, gets screwed over multiple times but along the way finds out about a last-ditch nuke option, she gets backed into a corner, and nukes the joint), the surrounding implications (scheming? What scheming?, breaks of logic for 'wouldn't it be cool if' logic, glorification of revenge, breaking logic just for torture porn, etc) kind of fuck it over for me.

i think there is a difference between bad writing and writing that you don't like or doesn't work for you. what your describing at least to me sounds more like you just didn't like the plot. doesn't mean its bad writing. 

25 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I still think, even with all the wasted scenes and filler, that the decent acting at least somewhat saved the Season 6 KL plot. The Bad Pussies in Dorne were easily the worst part. D & D sapping the mystique completely out of Dorne, turning it from a complex province with people of varying motives within it into a horny brown-skinned outsider culture filled with pornstar-quality acting, cynical to the point where they used Season 6 to double down on the shitness and have the actress unfortunate enough to have to say 'bad pussy' also be the one to execute the underutilised actor for Areo Hotah and Indira Varma (a decent actress) murdering the fantastic Alexander Siddig, because good actors will never rule Dorne again.

thank god they executed Doran and we didn't have to go back to Dorne for the whole season until the very end. 

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13 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

this sounds more like you just didn't like the direction things went than anything else. 

Not really. As I said, the basic premise of 'Cersei desperately seeks options, the options are foiled save a nuke option, and backed into a corner, the nuke goes off' is fine. The direction of Cersei's arc alone, minus the Tyrell-Sparrow interaction subplot, in the end, was probably the best part. It's just for all their claiming they 'don't have enough time to explore certain things', they wasted a lot of screentime on the scheming that existed only to be blown up. If they didn't spend so much time in 'the party room' as Preston Jacobs called it (I'm of two minds about that guy. Megarova reminds me a little of him) developing a side-plot they knew in advance wasn't going to amount to anything, I'd have dared call Cersei's S6 storyline at the very least well-executed.

But the poor usage of time to basically imply depth and complexity where there was both none, and no-one was particularly demanding complexity, is just kinda sloppy.

Edit: The Lancel-crawl, as I said, was only really worthy in the things it was exploring. Then again, maybe I'm being too generous in thinking D & D are interested in exploring things like intriguing humanity in even the most wretched of men, and it was just for a faux-cinematic, faux-tense 'will he blow out the obviously-going-to-blow-wildfire'? In which case, yeah, it was just as unjustified as all of the side shit. Of course it was always contrived as ass, I wasn't implying it was good writing in the slightest, lol.

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1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Not really. As I said, the basic premise of 'Cersei desperately seeks options, the options are foiled save a nuke option, and backed into a corner, the nuke goes off' is fine. The direction of Cersei's arc alone, minus the Tyrell-Sparrow interaction subplot, in the end, was probably the best part. It's just for all their claiming they 'don't have enough time to explore certain things', they wasted a lot of screentime on the scheming that existed only to be blown up. If they didn't spend so much time in 'the party room' as Preston Jacobs called it (I'm of two minds about that guy. Megarova reminds me a little of him) developing a side-plot they knew in advance wasn't going to amount to anything, I'd have dared call Cersei's S6 storyline at the very least well-executed.

But the poor usage of time to basically imply depth and complexity where there was both none, and no-one was particularly demanding complexity, is just kinda sloppy.

Edit: The Lancel-crawl, as I said, was only really worthy in the things it was exploring. Then again, maybe I'm being too generous in thinking D & D are interested in exploring things like intriguing humanity in even the most wretched of men, and it was just for a faux-cinematic, faux-tense 'will he blow out the obviously-going-to-blow-wildfire'? In which case, yeah, it was just as unjustified as all of the side shit. Of course it was always contrived as ass, I wasn't implying it was good writing in the slightest, lol.

Yea. Guess we will have to just disagree. Margery was an important character and had effectively become a POV. Was important to see what she was up to even if Cersei thwarted her in the end. 

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9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Revenge can be a good plot resolution.

In bad-to-moderate writing, yes, and as I said, it's fine to consider bad writing entertaining; I only get frustrated when people treat it as revolutionary stuff, and thus treat the writers of the stuff as flawless Gods who can't be wrong or apathetic about a thing (hence my hostility/egging of Megarova, but my more slightly charged disagreeing tone with you).

I get my standards from Elanor Roosevelt's famous hierarchy of intellect:

"Ordinary people talk about people, somewhat intelligent people talk about politics, truly intelligent people talk about ideas."

And in my opinion, the best justification for inconsistencies and contrivances is satisfying these talking points in some way. So let's take a look at A Song of Ice and Fire for how each demographic can take something away from, say, the Frey Pies and escalating tensions in Bolton-run Winterfell.

Ordinary person: WHOOOOA, Wyman Manderly's a badass, getting revenge for the Starks and doing something as crazy as baking them into pies! Shit's going down and Wyman Manderly's throat is slit by Hosteen Frey for making a sick burn about that dumb dead Little Walder! I'm not gonna ask questions about how he managed to bake the missing Freys into pies, even if it would be very difficult to get away with it logistically.

Somewhat intelligent person: One can see Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton clearly struggling to keep order. There's been random deaths throughout Winterfell of their men, Umbers both ostensibly on their side and not on their side, Manderlys and Dustins who hate them but who they have to honour as guests as nominal allies, and Freys who are reliable allies but a walking 'fuck me' sign in the eyes of the northerners. Roose Bolton clearly wants to send the Manderlys and the Umbers out to fight Stannis so they can keep the Freys, the one the Boltons are most in bed with, close and safe, while sending potential traitors off to die. However, Wyman pissing the Freys off leading to a violent outburst forces Roose's hand; he now has to send the Freys out to make it seem like he's on the side of order and sending out the violent ones. This is an interesting look into how realpolitik functions in a hornet's nest of tensions, desperation, and cabin fever. While it's a bit stupid that Wyman Manderly could ever pull this insanity off without someone noticing, the point is that the Boltons are having to play a delicate political game here, and that's rather interesting to follow.

Intelligent person: Wyman Manderly's actions, while understandable and likely supported by many people, are ultimately destructive. Nothing was earned from him making the Frey Pies other than a statement, the reactions to which mean nothing to a man with a slashed throat. It's just more depravity; no different from the depravity of the Red Wedding. It could possibly show how the depravity of man is infectious; we respond like with like to a point where 'justice' is just the atrocities of the people we're conditioned to like. Or - * insert other general ideas on the human condition, not just analytical realpolitik*. As moronic as it is that no-one would have noticed the Frey Pies being made, this is somewhat trivialised by the possibility of themes here; when is revenge justified and when is it not? Can it achieve anything? What can people like Hosteen Frey, people with genuine attachments to the truly vile, expect to be treated like, and why is it acceptable for the majority of humanity to forget Hosteen's own? There are many questions brought up by this, perhaps enough that I'll overlook the stupid logistical issues.

GRRM has been quite adept at writing something that has a little bit of everything for every sort of audience, depending on what I'd say isn't truly the intellect of the readers, but how willing a reader is to actively digest the medium they're enjoying rather than just passively indulging in a story with their brain doing the bare minimum. Hence, while I can't just bloody ignore the contrivances to make scenes like that happen, I understand that the talking points brought up by it are at least somewhat valuable on multiple levels.

So while I accept your position of 'I liked it because it was full of spectacle, satisfying revenge, torture porn etc', and I prefer it to propping up D & D as good writers, you've got to accept that it is the bare minimum required of any storyteller. It's the thing that any writing, not necessarily literature, does. Thus, it can't be called good writing, and arguably not worth the contrivances required for certain parts of it to occur. D & D's writing is... serviceable, for getting the ordinary crowd to talk, and most of the time the contrivances lead to the talking points in a way that you can't fully blame them for wanting to ignore them, I just don't see any broader, larger talking points in the 'somewhat intelligent' and 'intelligent' categories.

Cersei's S6 plot has the following:

Ordinary person: Whoa, Cersei's in a tough sitch that she's brought on herself. But she's got the Zombie Mountain and Qyburn, she just needs to figure something out! And hey, she's worked something out, a trial by combat! Awwww, we don't get to see an awesome fight because the High Sparrow's a sneaky bastard! He's manipulated Cersei's dumb kid into stopping trial by combat! Can't you see that that'd fuck your mother over, kid? Anyway, we totally hate Tommen and the Tyrells for putting Cersei in this situation now, but Qyburn's got a confirmation. Some rumour's been confirmed, oooh, I'm hyped! Ehhhhh... I hate all this boring sitting in a room and talking shit, when is that gonna be over- oh, it's Cersei's trial! But Cersei's not coming! Oh, gay guy got cut, now I'm sad, but oh wait, the High Sparrow knows something's up, and sends Lancel to get her. But Lancel... uh... tries to be a hero 'cause he found a bomb by following a kid and there's an epic crawl and it's so close but sorry, you're all blown up, and Cersei wins! Then she gets revenge on that evil fugly shame woman, while dumb kid walks out the window! YEAH! KILL YOURSELF KID, YOU WERE DUMB! And now Cersei's queen, fuck yeah, finally a badass is in charge. It doesn't matter if lots of stuff didn't make sense, 'cause FUCK YAS, QUEEN!

Somewhat intelligent person: Um... is it implying if you're reviled, slut-shamed, and have no claim to the throne, all you need to do is kill all the other claimants to the throne (or otherwise drive them to suicide) to become a well-liked leader? Because that very rarely works out in reality, it's why we have full-circle revolutions. Oh well, maybe they could discuss this next season. (inb4 Season 7 has Cersei as well-liked) I guess there's something in here about religion and politics, and how we should keep it out, but... maybe making us side with a person who blew up a bunch of people to prove that point isn't a good way to do it? Oh well, the contrivances were bad, but it's at least... trying to say something political? I think?

Intelligent person: Is the theme that trying to be a shrewd person who works via diplomacy, like Margaery, fails compared to more psychotic measures? Perhaps it shows that one shouldn't provoke an accused person to their breaking point, even if they legitimately did commit the crimes they're accused of? Those are both awful ideas. Or is it that people like Lancel, nobodies, could become heroes in a more fortunate world? Nah, D & D likely didn't think of that, silly me. Well, maybe it's a message to show that terrorism always trumps diplomacy? Or that feudalism is nothing more than might makes right, with mere lip service to familial succession? Once again, a nice thought, but probably not something  D & D intended. I mean, I guess it showed us that mutilating gays is wrong, that's something D & D likely intended, but we kinda knew that already. There's a few things that don't add up, and not enough substance to justify the contrivances.

I dunno, maybe these themes are enough to justify the contrivances even to a 'good writing' phase, but honestly, I can't think of a decent, honestly thought-provoking moment in the later seasons of GoT that would justify the contrivances that have to occur to make them happen and still make the piece count as good writing. It's merely writing to appeal to the ordinary man, the ones entertained by Love Island and the Only Way is Essex, while occasionally sprinkling in stuff for the smarter people that take an interest in politics. Meanwhile, D & D seem to actively hold people who view fiction as a vehicle for discussing raw ideas that could influence our society and how we view morality in contempt; hence 'themes are for Eight-grade book reports'.

Of course, it's fine to only appeal to ordinary folks most of the time. I just don't think they should be hailed as good writers worthy of having emmys thrown at them. The actors? Sure, throw them all the emmys, the actors on GoT tend to be on-point (with the exception of Sand Sneks), but D & D deserve no accolades for their writing. It's just serviceable stuff to make ordinary folk talk about their fictional people like they would a celebrity or a footballer.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Kevan and Pycelle weren't even on her side, even before she was imprisoned. They switched sides when Tommen became king. Though the thing is, is that they are NOT on Tommen's side. They are on their own side. They decided to stop facilitating Cersei's interestets, and begin following their own interests. Both of them were using Tommen to rise to top. When they were Cersei's allies, she was using them, they were serving to her, but she was doing what she wanted, she was the one in charge. But in case with Tommen, they can easily make him do what they want, furthermore that spineless idiot will be thinking that it was his own idea. Examples:

S6E4.

CUT TO: RED KEEP – TOMMEN'S CHAMBER

CERSEI is walking down the hall to TOMMEN’s chamber. She hears MAESTER PYCELLE talking.

MAESTER PYCELLE: And now, how to avert disaster with our current predicament. This High Sparrow. I have dealt with fanatics of every description, Your Grace. Not setting them off, that’s the most important thing. You are beset with enemies both within and without.

CERSEI enters the room

CERSEI: What are you doing here?

MAESTER PYCELLE: I am advising the king on our current predicament.

CERSEi: Leave.

MAESTER PYCELL: I am a member of the Small Council. The king’s small --

CERSEI: Is this a Small Council meeting?

MAESTER PYCELL: Obviously not. I’m here to lend my wisdom and my support.

TOMMEN: Thank you for your counsel, Grand Maester. That will be all for now.

MAESTER PYCELL: Your Grace.

MAESTER PYCELLE hobbles towards the door. As he leaves, he flashes CERSEI a smile. CERSEI closes the door.

CERSEI: Since I’ve missed the past several Small Coucil meetings, I wanted to speak to you about a few things.

TOMMEN: I’ve been thinking about the High Sparrow.

CERSEI: As have we all, unfortunately.

TOMMEN: We need to be careful in dealing with such a man. To prevent things from escalating any further. We have to be careful not to antagonize him. He has Margaery. We can’t put her at risk. He’s dangerous.

 

Tommen is using Picelle's words, and he thinks that it's all his own idea.

 

S6E7.

TOMMEN: When you attack the Faith, you attack the Crown. Anyone who attacks the Crown is unfit to serve as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

JAIME: I’ve been a member of the Kingsguard since before you were born. You don’t have to do this. You don’t have to do anything.
(Jaime understood that Tommen isn't acting on his own, he understood that others manipulated Tommen, and convinced him to do this. So he was trying to reason with Tommen, to let his see that he doesn't have to do what they said to him. He's the King, so if he won't want to do this, he doesn't have to. But Tommen was too spineless and dependent to do anything on his own.)

TOMMEN: I have to answer to the gods.

JAIME: Not when you’re sitting in that chair.

TOMMEN: The Crown’s decision on this matter is final.

JAIME: Will I be walking naked in the streets? Or will I spend a few months in the sept dungeons first to teach me about the gods’ mercy?

TOMMEN and KEVAN look at each other.     <- that's who was the puppeteer pulling Tommen-marionette's strings.

TOMMEN: You have served your house and your king faithfully for many years. And you will continue to do so. But not in this city."

 

Kevan and High Sparrow arranged to get rid of Jaime, to make Cersei helpless. But they miscalculated. Cersei wasn't alone, and she wasn't letting her enemies to stay unpunished.

 

S6E7.

"OLENNA: What’ll you do, then? You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that. The rest of your family have abandoned you. The people despise you. You’re surrounded by enemies, thousands of them. You’re going to kill them all by yourself? You’ve lost, Cersei. It’s the only joy I can find in all this misery."

Obviously that she wasn't going to kill all of her enemies all by herself. Widfire is a good tool, but it alone wouldn't be able to resolve all of her problems. So she also prepared other means. What Olenna said basically meant - "You're alone. And alone you can't get rid of all of your enemies." So the way to resolve this problem is to get support. And she was actively doing it thruout entire Season 6.

S6E1.

"CERSEI: Of course I do. You told me yourself when Father died. You said we had to stay together. You said people would try to tear us apart, take what’s ours. That was a prophecy, too. I didn’t listen to you, and everything you said came true.

JAIME places his hand on CERSEI’s cheek..

JAIME: Fuck prophecy. Fuck fate.
Fuck everyone who isn’t us. We’re the only ones who matter, the only ones in this world. And everything they’ve taken from us, we’re going to take back and more.

JAIME embraces CERSEI.

JAIME: We’re going to take everything there is.
"

It wasn't just words, or empty threats.

S6E3.

"QYBURN: Now remember, if any of your friends like sweets or need help, they can always come to me. All I need in return are whispers.

The door opens. GREGOR walks in, followed by JAIME and CERSEI.

QYBURN: No need to be afraid. This is Ser Gregor. He’s friends with all my friends."

 

"CERSEI: Varys's little birds?

QYBURN: Your little birds now, your Grace."

<- she created a Birds Network all over Westeros. And She went waaaaaaaay further than Varys while using them.

She also used them to kill. Pycelle. Lancel Lannister. But not ONLY for that.

If you have a cell phone you wouldn't limit its use to just making calls and sending SMS, would you? :huh: You will be also using its other functions like making photos and videos, listening music, playing games, connecting to the Web; you will be using its calendar, organizer, calculator, alarm clock; using it as flashlight, etc. Some creative people even invented unconventional ways to use cell phones. For example to boil eggs with it, or fry popcorn.   

Cersei is a creative person (for example the way she dealt with Sand Mom and her girl). So aside from using her Birds as informants and assasins, she also used them to recruit drones for her Black Guards, and servants for Queen's Black Court. Some people, that she recruited with Qyburn's help, thru her Birds Network, were new, but some of them were already serving in Red Keep. She just offered them a choice - either to switch to her side, or to die.

Of course she didn't just went to any of them directly, and just blatantly said to them - "Bend the knee to me, or die". No. She used her spy network to carefully tread political waters in Red Keep's court. And after Birds gathered enough information, to make an approximate layout of who is who in her surroundings, she and Qyburn decided to whom should they make a job offer.

(Varys also, in special cases, used his Birds for other work, aside from gathering info. For example thru them he hired people that were supposed to poison Dany, one of them also handed to Barristan Selmy scroll with royal pardon to Jorah, signed by King Robert.)

And courtiers chose Cersei as their rules over Tommen, because Tommen is a bad king. Because he is spineless, brainless idiot without his own opinion. Basically Tommen is a shmoo.

"The Shmoo is a small lovable creature. It laid eggs, gave milk, and when looked at as though you would like to eat it, it dies out of sheer will to please you. The shmoo loved to be eaten and could taste like any food you desire. Shmoo hide, cut thin, made a fine leather. Even shmoo whiskers made excellent toothpicks. The shmoo had the power to supply the whole world with all of its' wants and needs. The shmoo reproduces asexually, and only requires air to stay alive. When you need something, go find yourself a shmoo."

Also ANYONE can become Tommen's advisor. Anyone can come up to him, and whisper into his ear. Today one person will tell him, lets do this. And he will announce all over Seven Kingdoms - "We are going to do this". Tomorrow someone else will tell him, lets do that, and he will order - "From now on we are doing that". King Tommen Shmoo had the power, but the problem is, is that ANYONE was able to use and abuse this power.

King is supposed to be a sovereign <- and THAT, Tommen was not.

S6E7. "OLENNA: You have no support. Not anymore. Your brother’s gone. The High Sparrow saw to that".

High Sparrow, Tommen, Olenna, Kevan, Pycelle, and others thought that when they gotten rid of Jaime, and prohibited trial by combat, by usage of this means they took away fangs and claws of lioness Cersei, and turned her into harmless fluffy kitten.

They were so confident that she was out of the game, because they underestimated her, and what she is capable of. They thought that victory is already theirs, and thus they relaxed. <- And it's not as if things like this happened for the first time in GOT.

Ramsay Bolton vs Jon Snow, Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain, Sword of the Morning Ser Arthur Dayne vs backstabber, Tywin Lannister vs Tyrion and his crossbow, Dany with her dragons vs Night's King and his ice-spears.  

S6E7. "CERSEI: They have no idea how strong we are. No idea what we’re going to do to them." <- she wasn't referring to wildfire only. She had other trump cards up her sleeve.

Cersei's enemies haven't noticed active recruitment ongoing under their noses, because they weren't spying after her, nor after Qyburn. Because - what for? She's done for. All that's left, to get rid of her entirely, is just a mere formalities. Her trial was just a public spectacle to cement her doom.

They knew about wildfire, but they thought that while Cersei is under house arrest, she can't do anything. And they were ready to fight against Mountain. And they thought that Qyburn isn't posing any serious threat, and that there's no one else on Cersei's side.

Though none of them knew about existence of Birds Network. So how were they supposed to know that Cersei was plotting something? They knew nothing. While those kids were freely going in and out of Red Keep, unnoticed, whenever they wanted. And nobody intercepted them, or asked any questions. Even when one of Birds went to Pycelle, told him that King Tommen is summoning him, and escorted him to Qyburn's dungeon, he didn't asked her "Little girl, who the fuck are you? This is crown's castle, how did you get in here?". Brother Lancel was more attentive, but even he underestimated possible threat. When he saw that boy, he realised that something fishy is going on, because random kids shouldn't be near places like Baelor's Sept during Queen's trial.

Also this implies that Cersei used other people aside from Birds:   

"CERSEI (to QYBURN): Don’t stop at the city. I want little birds in Dorne, in Highgarden, in the North. If someone is planning on making our losses their gains I want to hear it. If someone is laughing at the queen who walk naked through the streets covered in shit, I want to hear. I want to know who they are. I want to know where they are."

Why does she want to know WHO and WHERE they are? Just because?

When in first episode the guy in KL were insulting Cersei, and saying crude jokes about her, she sent the Mountain to get rid of him. But would she send Mountain to get rid of every and single one of her offenders? In KL alone there lives 1 million people.

She can't stay for long without the Mountain's protection. So she won't be sending him to deal with all of her offenders. She will send to deal with them her other people. People hired in Dorne, In Highgarden, in the North, and all over Westeros. People hired thru her Birds Network. And she sent the Mountain to deal with that guy, because he was close in KL, and he was especially offensive, so to deal with him Cersei sent her best enforcer.

Cersei's enemies knew about existence of wildfire. Who didn't? :rolleyes: After Tyrion's victory in Blackwater Bay it was all over news ^_^ But they weren't aware that Cersei had other people on her side, not only Qyburn and the Mountain.

Qyburn and Birds were killing Pycelle. One of the Birds offed Brother Lancel, and lighted a candle to set jars on fire. The Mountain secured King Tommen. But who siezed septa Unella? Who was protecting Cersei?

While Mountain was guarding Tommen, why non of servants or guards haven't approached Cersei, and forcefully escorted her to the Sept for her trial? Would she really let herself be unprotected, risking that someone can come after her, while Mountain is away? If someone came to her chamber, and made her to go to the Sept, then her great plan was done for.

When Cersei didn't came to the Sept, the High Sparrow sent Brother Lannister to get her. But what if he had sent after her dozens of Sparrows? What if he had sent them after Cersei, sooner than her Bird was ready to light it up?

Cersei is not the kind of person to leave everything to the mercy of fate, or be decided by chance. By the morning of trial's day (aside from Tommen, Pycelle and septa Unella) everyone in the Red Keep were either on Cersei's side, or dead, or on their way to the Sept (which is the same thing as being dead, only a bit delayed).

Just as I thought, there were no actual clues. You're just making up your own story. 

I must ask again, if Cersei was masterminding all of this, why didn't anyone notice? How stupid were her enemies, who otherwise blocked her every move (except the moves we saw her make with Qyburn, the Mountain, and the birds)?

When she recruits people, and gives them the "Join or Die" ultimatum, what happens if they pick "die?" The birds kill them, Qyburn uses their bodies for Science, and no one notices they're missing?

How does she know they won't say, "Okay," then run and tell Kevan, Olestra, the Sparrow, or whomever? You can say it's a calculated risk, like she took recruiting people in previous seasons. But back then, her fellow players--Littlefinger, Varys, Tyrion, Ned, etc.--knew she was playing. In Season Six, suddenly she's doing all this in perfect secrecy. No one knows she's still in the game. Which makes everyone else an idiot and Cersei a supergenius. 

 

You're backtracking from the fact that Cersei ends up winning, with a loyal court and Black Guard. Therefore, she must have set it up in secret beforehand, even though that would have been impossible given what we were shown. 

No, it was just bad writing. 

 

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On 21.09.2017 at 4:21 PM, jcmontea said:

Regarding how many survived the sept splosion. Yea. Your just supposed to assume that most of them blew up in the sept and not think too much more of it. Lol. But I don't think that makes it bad writing or a bad TV show. At the end of the day this is a TV show which entails a certain amount of narrative economy. For this specific story being told, how Cersei rounded up and dealt with the remnants of the Sparrows is fundamentally unimportant. Something like that can truly be left off screen if it has no broader impact on the main tale either plot wise or character wise. 

I think that nearly all of them were in the Sept. Because Cersei's trial was the moment of their glory, their long awated victory, their 15 minutes of fame. For all of them it was also a show. Because what other fun, except public lynching of highborn can they have, if they can't have sex, drink, eat good food, or even wear shoes?

On 21.09.2017 at 7:26 PM, SirArthur said:

Seriously ? Name one nation.

In our world? There's none. Because on Earth there's no similar islands as Iron Islands of Planetos, with a nation that live like ironborn. Their people consider that for ironborn, any profession or occupation unrelated, in one way or another, to the sea or maritime way of life, is shameful and unworthy. While in our world people, even those that live on islands, don't limit their occupation to strictly maritime.

Info about ironborn characteristics as a nation, from GOT and ASOIAF wikias: 

Spoiler

Their motto is "We Do Not Sow".

"We are ironborn. We're not subjects, we're not slaves. We do not plow the field or toil in the mine. We take what is ours." - Balon Greyjoy.

"The ironborn are a race of pirates and thieves."

"A man's worth was judged primarily on his skill as a raider, as evidenced in the disdain jewelry and ornament bought with coin. Men on the Iron Islands wear no tokens unless they have "paid the iron price," i.e. won by combat and taken from the corpses of they have slain."

"During raids, the ironborn also took captives. Many of their captives would work as thralls, slaving away on the farms and mines of the Iron Islands since the true sons of the Iron Islands are meant for more than such drudgery."

"The ironmen consider reaving and fishing to be honorable work for free men, while farming and mining are lesser tasks to be performed by thralls."

"The traditional ironborn way of life, known as the Old Way, is centered on piracy and raiding. An ironborn is considered a man only when he has killed his first foe, while his personal wealth is expected to be obtained by "paying the iron price" - that is, seizing it from enemies he has personally killed. An ironborn is also expected to abstain from working the land or toiling in the mines, since such tasks are reserved for thralls - men captured in raids and forced into servitude. "

"A thrall isn't quite the same as a slave, as even the ironborn raiders don't believe in "slavery" as such. Thralls are captured in raids, by "paying the iron price".

Any infant born on the Iron Islands, even to two thralls, is considered ironborn. Such children cannot legally be taken away from their parents until the age of seven, when they have to join a ship's crew or take on an apprenticeship."

"Ironborn women may fight as well as a man, and may crew a longship or even captain their own ships."

"Illiteracy is common among the ironborn, perhaps because they believe physical force is enough to obtain what they want, and do not bother to produce anything of their own, as the motto of House Greyjoy implies."

"The soil of the Iron Islands is very poor, and many minor lords cannot afford draft animals like horses or oxen, and thus their thralls and smallfolk have to pull the plows themselves. The only appreciable natural resource the Iron Islands possess on land is iron mines (of course): their yields are typically produced from backbreaking mining by thralls. Only the largest island, Great Wyk, possesses plentiful enough iron mines that its ruling Houses gain more wealth from the land than from the sea. Thralls who work the fields of the Iron Islands usually grow old and can even raise their own families, but thralls doomed to the mines often die from exhaustion after only a few short years."

"For centuries, the ironborn pillaged the western coasts of Westeros, which they refer to as the "Green lands", and conquered various coastal territories, building a far-flung maritime empire, whose size fluctuated depending on the constantly shifting political climate on the continent. About three generations before the War of Conquest, the ruling House Hoare led the ironborn to conquer the Riverlands, which had previously been conquered by the Stormlands three centuries before. After driving out the Storm Kings, they spent decades forcing their new thralls in the Riverlands to build the largest castle on the entire continent: Harrenhal. Almost the size of a small city, Harrenhal was meant to ensure lasting ironborn domination of the Riverlands. "

In none of our nations it isn't prerequired to give your children away to serve on a ship, from the moment they will turn 7 years old. Basically they are a marine Spartans, that live their entire life at the sea.

Nearly all of them (including women) are sailors, marines, fishermen, pirates and raiders. Farmers and miners nearly all are slaves. Their nation don't produce anything, except, gues what? -> SHIPS.

From ASOIAF wikia: "George R. R. Martin has indicated that the major lords of the ironborn can each float around a hundred ships." There are 12 major houses. So they have 1,200 ships. And who build those ships, if their slaves are working as farmers or miners? Ironborn did.

Also it's prerequired from fishermen and sailors to be able to repair their own boats and ships, when they are damaged by storms or in battles.

On 21.09.2017 at 7:26 PM, SirArthur said:

How about (hard) wood has to dry a few month before it is ready ? Or the requirement to grow the hemp for all the rigging a season in advance. And let's not start with the tools that have to be build and the iron and coal that has to be mined to craft all the ship nails.

In Broken man, where they were building sept, they used all wood immidiately after cutting down trees. When people were repairing Winterfell, they didn't waited months to dry wood. You think that on islands with 1,5 million population, and with number of ships/boats 500-1,200, they don't have enough ropes and nails, and tools needed for shipbuilding? "Euron orders the Ironborn to chop down every tree and build a new fleet. He also calls for all the Ironborn women to weave sails for the ships." As you can see from his speach, he didn't ordered them to mine iron, or to mow hemp. They are people that live on sea. Their region is stormy. They often have to repair their fleet. So they have tons of needed for that supplies.

On 21.09.2017 at 7:26 PM, SirArthur said:

I don't know what that has to do with the population ... and I don't know what's up with the axe or the saw. Longships need curved tools for the clinker construction.

Size of population gives apprehension of how many adult men do they have at their disposal, to involve them in shipbuilding. Amount of time how fast they will build their fleet, is based on amount of added into work men/hours. More men they have, faster they will build. Axes and saws to cut down trees, and make boards. They have all tools needed, either for small boats, or for longships. And what they don't have, they will just go on a raid to westcoast of mainland, and steal whatever they will additionally need. As they usually do, whenever they need something. Raiding is their lifelong calling.

On 21.09.2017 at 7:26 PM, SirArthur said:

Do you have any references or are the numbers just made up ? Because soldiers are really not that numerous...

Nearly all of their men are raiders, and some women too. Those who for whatever reason decide to live a dishonorable life as a landlubber, are far and between. Nearly 100% out of those 250,000 men are sailors/marines, and those 15-20-25 thousands soldiers that Iron Islands have are actually only soldiers of Iron Fleet, that is only 100 ships big. That is their official army. But in their nation nearly all men are fighters/raiders/pirats. As they live on the sea, they have to know how to build or repair ships and boats. So how many out of them are blacksmith? They don't produce nearly anything, except ships. In population where there are 250,000 adult men that are sailors, marines, pirates, raiders, that by their invironment all forced to be shipwright, how many out of those 250,000 are blacksmiths? Even if every 25, then they have at least 10,000. And among them occupation of a blacksmith - person heavily involved in shipbuilding is an honorable profession. So they probably have more of them than every 25th.

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