Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

When have we seen a handful of men holding their own against the full army? I hope you're not refering to 7x06, because that was not the full army they held their own against, and they most certainly did not do it all at once. The undead came sporadically, a few at a time (you can even see how almost the entire army surrounding them stands still on the edge of the lake while only a few move towards the middle), and Jon & Co was still about to be swamped.

We saw the whole (or at least most of it) army move trough the gap in the wall in 7x07. Do you really think that a handful of men could hold their own against that, even if they like in 7x06 are in a position where they have their backs protected?

The AotD is a massive threat, because the human army that oppose them needs to be big enough to defeat the entirety of the AotD (or at least all the WW*s and the NK) all at once

They weren't literally holding their own against the whole army, because they could have been steamrolled if the Night King was using the tactic most likely to kill them. (I still don't fully understand its motive in that sequence.) But the whole army was there, presumably trying to kill them, and they held out for several minutes, eliminating more than their own numbers several times over. 

Not all Westerosi are as accomplished fighters as those men, but certainly based on that scene we can believe regular people can kill more undead than can be replaced by their own corpses, don't we? The fact is they don't have to destroy the Army of the Dead all at once. If they engage it with forces that eliminate more of them than corpses are left on the field, then the Army's numbers will go down with each engagement. For a while at least, the living will have enough men to continue to engage them from strategic points along the map. 

That's not to mention that killing White Walkers makes zombies go night-night. Nor the two dragons and Bran. The Night King has his dragon, which really evens up the odds, but wouldn't dragonglass arrows, spears, or scorpions finish him, no big deal? I assume that the Ice Dragon will be killed by one of Dany's dragons, however. 

That's also not to mention that living humans can make use of strategy and tactics. We've not seen the Army of the Dead do that. They just come at you. (Though, again, we weren't really inside the Night King's head at the frozen lake.) The defenders of light can lure them into ditches, one poster I recall suggested using dragonglass caltrops, which is too brilliant for words. Plus, the living have living horses and castles. And they can go on frickin' water. I haven't seen the dead move fast on dead horses, and do you remember when the Skeleton Crew had a tough time with the wooden wall at Hardhome? Imagine that at Winterfell. 

Aside from growing on corpses, the real advantage of the Army of the Dead is that they don't need to worry about logistics. They don't eat or sleep, and they can just throw themselves over a cliff, for instance, if it gets in the way. But aside from that, when you scratch the surface you realize just what an advantage humanity has on paper. Assuming there are no ass-pulls with the Ice Dragon or the Night King's powers. 

That being said, the living screw things up all the time. And we already know they won't be working together. Cersei will stab them in the back, and a two-front war with zombies and White Walkers on one front you don't want. 

Moreover, thinking about the fact that Sweetrobin is now solely in charge of the Vale and no one is in charge of the Riverlands, for instance, gives me pause. So much of Westerosi society is without real leadership. Jon is a bastard Night's Watch deserter who just got named king ten seconds ago. Dany is a conqueror who didn't seem like a viable alternative to Mad Queen Cersei to many, the Dothraki and Unsullied are foreign invaders. Human armies probably won't get along. 

Maybe the Dead should be favorites after all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

And Drogon and Rhaegal are super vulernable to the dead equivalent of dragon glass - ice spears. 

Are they, though? The Night King had ample opportunity to kill all three dragons and didn't.

That's because the sequence was poorly conceived, written, shot, and edited, admittedly. But still. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Yeah that too, and I'd guess that when the fighting begins, Drogon and Rhaegal will be to busy fighting Viserion to help the humans fight the wights, so unless the human army can hold it's own (and win) against the wights and WW's, the battle is lost already

 

Not all of the human army has to fight one battle. And they don't have to win, just eliminate enough dead at each engagement so that the dead army can be defeated before they run out of human beings. Though ideally they'd want enough left over to sustain Westerosi civilization. 

I don't know how many dead were vanquished by the Magnificent Whatever last season, but it was a LOT. Made the war look doable, especially with dragonfire, despite the Ice Dragon. This season, there will be the Valyrian Steel Squad making ice cubes out of White Walkers, which will eliminate entire platoons of dead instantaneously. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Unless you are in the "I hope the NK wins"-camp (which won't happen), why is this an issue? The AotD needs to look somewhat manageable at this point if the living side is to win in season 8. At least people won't be able to claim a deus-ex-machina (well some probably still will) since they laid the foundation for how to defeat the AotD way before season 8. If someone made a discovery of how to defeat them when they where only 1 days march away from Winterfell I'd say

Great point. I want to finally see a fight won not because of some last minute save but because they succesfully prepared for the battle and won on the field. 

Quote

In Jon's defense, he's not solely to blame for that; Tyrion is to blame as well because it was his stupid idea, Jorah is to blame because he was the first one to volunteer for the mission before Jon even said he'd go, Bran is to blame because his ravenmessage to Jon in E5 scared him (possibly needlessly) into action, and Dany is to blame for going north with her dragons. Someone at Eastwatch is also to blame for not giving the raiding-party horses in the first place! Plenty of blame to go around. :P

He get's an A for licking Daenerys in the face during the act, showing her why they call him the White Wolf. ;)

Lol. Although they didn’t show it, we know Jon gave her the Lord’s kiss. 

Quote

I'm not sure actually, I can see it go either way. My gut feeling is that the AotD is defeated in the north and that Cersei decides to do something really stupid when the Targaryens come for her traitorous ass afterwards, but I can also see a scenario where the NK takes of on Viserion after loosing his army in the north and then tries to do something in Kings Landing. It would be quite fitting in a way for Cersei to be the maker of heir own demise without either Jon or Dany playing a part in it.
 

The Dothraki (and Unsullied) don't have dragonglass weaponry though, and mundane weapons are (almost) useless against wights. At most they'd be able to tie up the AotD while the real wight-killers (Drogon, Rhaegal and whoever carries valyrian steel/dragonglass weaponry and fire) goes to work.

 I will not be surprised if all the Dothraki and Unsullied have dragon glass weapons next year. In fact, I just assumed they would. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, darmody said:

Are they, though? The Night King had ample opportunity to kill all three dragons and didn't.

That's because the sequence was poorly conceived, written, shot, and edited, admittedly. But still. 

Just takes one ice spear. They seem to be as vulnerable to ice spears as the white walkers are to dragon glass/ valyrian steel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, darmody said:

Not all Westerosi are as accomplished fighters as those men, but certainly based on that scene we can believe regular people can kill more undead than can be replaced by their own corpses, don't we? The fact is they don't have to destroy the Army of the Dead all at once. If they engage it with forces that eliminate more of them than corpses are left on the field, then the Army's numbers will go down with each engagement. For a while at least, the living will have enough men to continue to engage them from strategic points along the map. 

Regular people, assuming that they are proficient fighters like dothraki, unsullied and possibly well-trained westerosi soldiers can probably kill plenty of wights per person (the wights are zombies after all, their strength doesn't lie in combat prowess but numbers and resilience), but this assumes that they have a weapon that can actually kill them. Far from everyone fighting in the human army will have a weapon made out of dragonglass.

And yes, they do actually have to kill the entirety of the AotD in one go (or at the very least, the entire fraction of the AotD they're currently fighting). Let's assume that the armies clash, only 25% of the humans die and 75% of the wights die ... what happens to the rest of the wights and walkers? They won't flee, they'll fight until they drop. What prevents the WW's and the NK from raising dead human soldiers mid-battle?

Quote

That's not to mention that killing White Walkers makes zombies go night-night. Nor the two dragons and Bran. The Night King has his dragon, which really evens up the odds, but wouldn't dragonglass arrows, spears, or scorpions finish him, no big deal? I assume that the Ice Dragon will be killed by one of Dany's dragons, however. 

Yes, but killing a White Walker is impossible without the necessary weapon. Saying "it's easy to kill a WW, just stab him with the pointy end of a dragonglass spear" is easy, but actually getting to a WW will probably be the hard part, especially if there's 50.000 wights between the WW and you.
As for the dragons, we have yet to establish if dragon fire can actually hurt WW's. So far the only indication we have is that it can't (we see the NK walk in dragon fire in 7x06 and it dissipates just like regular fire), but we have yet to find out for sure. Same with Bran, we have yet to establish what he can actually do to combat the NK except for worg into ravens to scout.

And no, a single dragonglass arrow or thrust from a dragonglass spear is very unlikely to kill of Viserion. The polar bear in 7x06 gives us a hint regarding this: it was put on fire and stabbed/cut by dragonglass/valyrian steel several times over before eventually succumbing, and I'd expect Viserion to be much tougher. A scorpion firing a dragonglass bolt into a vulnerable part of him might do the trick but...there are no scorpions in the north, and I doubt Jamie keeps one in his pocket.
 

Quote

That's also not to mention that living humans can make use of strategy and tactics. We've not seen the Army of the Dead do that. They just come at you. (Though, again, we weren't really inside the Night King's head at the frozen lake.) The defenders of light can lure them into ditches, one poster I recall suggested using dragonglass caltrops, which is too brilliant for words. Plus, the living have living horses and castles. And they can go on frickin' water. I haven't seen the dead move fast on dead horses, and do you remember when the Skeleton Crew had a tough time with the wooden wall at Hardhome? Imagine that at Winterfell. 

Yes, tactics is one of the advantages the humans have over the AotD, and they better make sure they come up with something. Dragonglass caltrops is interesting, but is there enough dragonglass?

I wouldn't exactly say that the AotD had a though time with the wooden wall at Hardhome though, it didn't last many minutes, and it was only wights who clawed at it, not WW's (or Viserion.)

Quote

Maybe the Dead should be favorites after all. 

A bit cynical considering that 99% of the westerosi population are regular farmers, fishermen, workers, craftsmen, etc who simply want to get on with their lives in peace. Just because a few of the handful of elite members in the westerosi society (those we follow in the show to be exact) are evil and cruel doesn't really justify collective punishment of an entire continent.

7 hours ago, darmody said:

I don't know how many dead were vanquished by the Magnificent Whatever last season, but it was a LOT. Made the war look doable, especially with dragonfire, despite the Ice Dragon. This season, there will be the Valyrian Steel Squad making ice cubes out of White Walkers, which will eliminate entire platoons of dead instantaneously. 

Was it though? Not counting those roasted by the dragons or who fell into the water (because it's impossible to count), the actual suicide squad themselves killed less than 100 wights in actual combat. I'm sure someone made a count somewhere, but it wasn't what I'd consider many.
Said suicide squad also had the right weapons for the job, and was made up by some of the, if not the best fighters Westeros has to offer.

And as I said before, saying that the Valyrian Steel Squad will make ice cubes out of the WW's is one thing, but having the VSS actually reach the WW's in the first place is a different thing entirely. 

6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Great point. I want to finally see a fight won not because of some last minute save but because they succesfully prepared for the battle and won on the field. 
 

Yeah unless someone f*cks up badly, it looks like we'll get the first battle in a long time where there was some actual strategic planning ahead and where the army goes trough with said planning (unlike the BotB where all planning went out the window).
It's probably one of the reasons the show decided to have Jamie head north at this particular time in the story: to give the northern army something it sorely needs - an experienced battlefield commander and tactician. 

Quote

Lol. Although they didn’t show it, we know Jon gave her the Lord’s kiss. 

Yeah I expect that he did. The lack of shown foreplay was disappointing. 

Quote

 I will not be surprised if all the Dothraki and Unsullied have dragon glass weapons next year.

I would, forging dragon glass weaponry to over 120.000 dothraki, unsullied, vale knights, wildlings and northern soldiers takes time, time they might or might not have. We also don't know how much dragonglass was actually at dragonstone, Jon comments that the cave contained "all the dragonglass they'd ever need", but was it enough to forge over 120.000 swords, spears and arakhs, let alone uncountable arrowheads? 

I'd almost be disappointed if they manage to give everyone in the human army some sort of dragonglass weapon, because that would remove a lot of the tension; the war would look to be in the humans favour all of a sudden, and I'd expect the human army to more or less roflstomp the undead army because the only real edge the AotD has in actual battle (near immunity to regular weaponry) is removed, and as far as actual fighting prowess goes, a trained human is way better than a wight. I guess the real tension for my part at that point would be "Will the NK take Jon and/or Daenerys with him when he dies?", which would be a bit anticlimactic given all the buildup towards the actual war. 
Not that there wouldn't be enough tension to go around, I expect I would involuntarily stop breathing while Jon/Dany/NK have their (potential) air-duel. :P
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Regular people, assuming that they are proficient fighters like dothraki, unsullied and possibly well-trained westerosi soldiers can probably kill plenty of wights per person (the wights are zombies after all, their strength doesn't lie in combat prowess but numbers and resilience), but this assumes that they have a weapon that can actually kill them. Far from everyone fighting in the human army will have a weapon made out of dragonglass.
 

 

Quote

And yes, they do actually have to kill the entirety of the AotD in one go (or at the very least, the entire fraction of the AotD they're currently fighting). Let's assume that the armies clash, only 25% of the humans die and 75% of the wights die ... what happens to the rest of the wights and walkers? They won't flee, they'll fight until they drop. What prevents the WW's and the NK from raising dead human soldiers mid-battle?

Possible if down to one WW they would flee back to the lands of always winter to fight again in 8000 years. But overall i agree. This war does not end until the NK and every White Walker is taken out because of the ease which with they can raise an army. 

 

Quote

Yes, but killing a White Walker is impossible without the necessary weapon. Saying "it's easy to kill a WW, just stab him with the pointy end of a dragonglass spear" is easy, but actually getting to a WW will probably be the hard part, especially if there's 50.000 wights between the WW and you.
As for the dragons, we have yet to establish if dragon fire can actually hurt WW's. So far the only indication we have is that it can't (we see the NK walk in dragon fire in 7x06 and it dissipates just like regular fire), but we have yet to find out for sure. Same with Bran, we have yet to establish what he can actually do to combat the NK except for worg into ravens to scout.

And no, a single dragonglass arrow or thrust from a dragonglass spear is very unlikely to kill of Viserion. The polar bear in 7x06 gives us a hint regarding this: it was put on fire and stabbed/cut by dragonglass/valyrian steel several times over before eventually succumbing, and I'd expect Viserion to be much tougher. A scorpion firing a dragonglass bolt into a vulnerable part of him might do the trick but...there are no scorpions in the north, and I doubt Jamie keeps one in his pocket.
 

I just rewatched the scene again. Its not actually clear that the bear was ever stabbed with dragonglass before Jorah does it. But his one stab does seem to just turn it off. Will really have to wait and see how it works exactly. 

Quote

Yes, tactics is one of the advantages the humans have over the AotD, and they better make sure they come up with something. Dragonglass caltrops is interesting, but is there enough dragonglass?

I wouldn't exactly say that the AotD had a though time with the wooden wall at Hardhome though, it didn't last many minutes, and it was only wights who clawed at it, not WW's (or Viserion.)

A bit cynical considering that 99% of the westerosi population are regular farmers, fishermen, workers, craftsmen, etc who simply want to get on with their lives in peace. Just because a few of the handful of elite members in the westerosi society (those we follow in the show to be exact) are evil and cruel doesn't really justify collective punishment of an entire continent.

Was it though? Not counting those roasted by the dragons or who fell into the water (because it's impossible to count), the actual suicide squad themselves killed less than 100 wights in actual combat. I'm sure someone made a count somewhere, but it wasn't what I'd consider many.
Said suicide squad also had the right weapons for the job, and was made up by some of the, if not the best fighters Westeros has to offer.

And as I said before, saying that the Valyrian Steel Squad will make ice cubes out of the WW's is one thing, but having the VSS actually reach the WW's in the first place is a different thing entirely. 

Yeah unless someone f*cks up badly, it looks like we'll get the first battle in a long time where there was some actual strategic planning ahead and where the army goes trough with said planning (unlike the BotB where all planning went out the window).
It's probably one of the reasons the show decided to have Jamie head north at this particular time in the story: to give the northern army something it sorely needs - an experienced battlefield commander and tactician. 

Yeah I expect that he did. The lack of shown foreplay was disappointing. 

Mising from epicboat sex was epic time. Although it really makes me think the scene is loaded with symbolism since they showed so little what they showed must have been very carefully thoughtout. 

Quote

I would, forging dragon glass weaponry to over 120.000 dothraki, unsullied, vale knights, wildlings and northern soldiers takes time, time they might or might not have. We also don't know how much dragonglass was actually at dragonstone, Jon comments that the cave contained "all the dragonglass they'd ever need", but was it enough to forge over 120.000 swords, spears and arakhs, let alone uncountable arrowheads? 

They gave Euron an armada in 6 months. I think logic is really out the window on this since the timing and the quantity is ambiguous enough it is really what will help the story more. Not enough fixed points to deduce an answer with only one degree of freedom. 

What would be cooler and more satisfying narratively? The Dothraki with dragonglass arackhs or without. 

Ultimatley it comes down to do they want the living to have a battlefield victory that doesn’t depend on a cheat and how big of an army do they want Dany to have after the NK is beaten. 

Quote

 

I'd almost be disappointed if they manage to give everyone in the human army some sort of dragonglass weapon, because that would remove a lot of the tension; the war would look to be in the humans favour all of a sudden, and I'd expect the human army to more or less roflstomp the undead army because the only real edge the AotD has in actual battle (near immunity to regular weaponry) is removed, and as far as actual fighting prowess goes, a trained human is way better than a wight. I guess the real tension for my part at that point would be "Will the NK take Jon and/or Daenerys with him when he dies?", which would be a bit anticlimactic given all the buildup towards the actual war. 
Not that there wouldn't be enough tension to go around, I expect I would involuntarily stop breathing while Jon/Dany/NK have their (potential) air-duel. :P
 

That air duel should be epic. Pretty sure Jon and Dany survive (especially if she is pregnant). But will be very scared for Rhaegal and Drogon. 

They could still create tension by having humans we know and like die throughout the battle and or the humans start off with the advantage but slowly the ability to raise people from the dead non stop begins to turn the tide of battle in favor of the NK. 

Thinking about it, its crazy how much is really still up in the air.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01.10.2017 at 1:44 AM, jcmontea said:

Can’t see how they pass up on having both the NK make it to KL - especially after last episode where they reminded us of how many people live in KL, had winter reach KL, and Dany and Bran’s visions - and Cersei have her comeuppance of having to deal with the NK. 

This promo video is foreshadowing that NK will come to KL and Cersei.

Look closely 1:05-1:20, Cersei exhalation becomes visible, because of sudden drop in temperature, and then the view switches to eyes of NK.

Also in Dany's vision, there's snow in Red Keep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7VuGknEfQY

And when she comes into the throne room, from leftside door, instead of main entry, the reason for that is to show to viewers stained-glass window with blue rose.

This window was shown in GOT several times, in this scene Ned refused to obey Robert's order, and to kill Dany:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/22/96/48/229648f76994b773740ead37b8d2e71f.jpg

Seems that this blue rose symbolises Jon, thus in that scene the meaning of it, is that Dany came to Red Keep, that is seized by winter, for Jon's sake.

22 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Every victory makes the AotD bigger, so if Jon and Dany's army wasn't already in a position to (maybe) stop them, the AotD could easily go from city to city/castle to castle in the north, grow, then go south and do the same in the riverlands, then the westerlands, etc. etc, becoming bigger and bigger, and by the time they reached KL or Dorne, it wouldn't be 100.000 strong, but over a million strong, and there's nothing that would be able to stop that.

Unlike a regular (human) army, it can't be whittled down over the course of it's campaign; it will either continue to grow indefinitely (or until all of Westeros is in ruins), or get destroyed entirely all in one go. It also doesn't care about things like logistics, troop morale, food, etc. that regular armies do. 

Add to that - they never retreat, they keep going until their target is eliminated, or all of them are killed. The episode in Hardhome doesn't count - Jon and wildlings managed to escape only because of water, that's the only reason why Undead Army didn't chased after them.

21 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Would be interesting to see both a victory thst does not depend on a last minute save and also the implications of a phyric victory. The discussions when they realize the NK is still alive and do they head south to defend and protect KL or abandon the south and count on the neck as a defense would be interesting to see. 

Maybe they will destroy Undead Army in The North, but NK will escape with Ice Dragon to King's Landing.

21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Good thing Jon spent the entirety of season 7 getting dragonglass for his army and securing a baby an alliance with Daenerys.

And people were complaining, that the only reason D&D wasted Jon's nearly entire time in Season 7 at Dragonstone, is to make a premise for Epic Boat Sex, totally overlooking importance of what he actually did - armed humans against wights.

20 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

And then the living have advantage like flaming or dragonglass tipped arrows (and the Dothraki are great archers), Pitch, Wildfire etc. It seems like the dead will lose more wights than people they would manage to kill at even Northern locations. This would make their nos. go down in time, not up, even if the NK raised more soldiers.

NK can use Ice Dragon to turn dozens or even hundreds people into wights, with single breath. Ice Dragon's blue fire is not fire at all.

19 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

In Jon's defense, he's not solely to blame for that; Tyrion is to blame as well because it was his stupid idea, Jorah is to blame because he was the first one to volunteer for the mission before Jon even said he'd go, Bran is to blame because his ravenmessage to Jon in E5 scared him (possibly needlessly) into action, and Dany is to blame for going north with her dragons. Someone at Eastwatch is also to blame for not giving the raiding-party horses in the first place! Plenty of blame to go around. :P

Not to mention that NK could have went on this side of The Wall even without dragon. He was gathering undead giants, and chains to break the gates, how it was done during attack of wildlings on Castle Black. When WW killed all Children, wights became able to approach The Wall. NK was planning to break Wall's gates, go thru them, and then use his giants to break gates of all castles all over Westeros to get to people inside. Watch Youtube video "Wildlings Attack The Wall With Giants and Mammoths!", 3:30-6:30.

First they tried to break the gate with ropes, metal hooks and mammonth, but when ropes got burned, and mammonth escaped scared by fire, one of the giants lifted the gate, in 45 seconds.

And NK has dozens of giants, and lots of chains that wouldn't burn or break.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@MinscS2

just saw the Game Revealed for Episode 6. 

they specifically said all their weapons did not work until Jorah stabbed it with Dragonglass which de-animated it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, darmody said:

They weren't literally holding their own against the whole army, because they could have been steamrolled if the Night King was using the tactic most likely to kill them. (I still don't fully understand its motive in that sequence.) But the whole army was there, presumably trying to kill them, and they held out for several minutes, eliminating more than their own numbers several times over. 

Giants weren't there. If even one Undead giant was there, Jon&Co wouldn't have even one chance to survive. NK didn't brought giants with him for that battle, which means that to kill Jon&Co wasn't NK's intention. He didn't brought giants, he didn't used ice-spears to kill Jon or his people. This battle was a reconnaissance, to see what people can do. And also to either retrieve captured wight, or to destroy it. 

19 hours ago, darmody said:

Nor the two dragons and Bran. The Night King has his dragon, which really evens up the odds, but wouldn't dragonglass arrows, spears, or scorpions finish him, no big deal?

Are you sure that dragonglass can pierce thru dragon's skin?

Dragonglass is very fragile and easily crumbles, it's not like diamonds or any other hardstones, it is definitely less tough than average arrows with metal arrowheads. Even metal arrows just bounce off of dragon's skin.

20 hours ago, darmody said:

That's also not to mention that living humans can make use of strategy and tactics. We've not seen the Army of the Dead do that. They just come at you. (Though, again, we weren't really inside the Night King's head at the frozen lake.)

In Hardhome NK separated his army into two parts, one he sent to attack from the gated front side, while he himself with second part approached from the left side, and attacked unsuspecting wildlings from above. On one side of Hardhome is the sea, on front side passage thru mountains is blocked by the gate, and from two sides it's blocked by mountains. It was supposed to be a safe place, instead NK turned it into a trap - Undead Army attacked from two sides, third side was blocked by mountain, and people weren't able too escape thru icy cold water.

That's tactic.

While going to Hardhome to gather more corpses for his army is a strategy.

20 hours ago, darmody said:

and do you remember when the Skeleton Crew had a tough time with the wooden wall at Hardhome? Imagine that at Winterfell. 

Remember how fast ONE giant broke the gate of Winterfell in the Battle of Bastards episode?

20 hours ago, darmody said:

Plus, the living have living horses and castles. And they can go on frickin' water. I haven't seen the dead move fast on dead horses,

Wights can run as fast as living horses, or even faster ->When Jon&Co reached only middle of the lake, wights that originally were far behind them, managed to outrun them, reach the end of the lake, and closed their ranks, blocking the way out of the lake.

Giants can break the gates, and Ice Dragon can burn castles.

Furthermore not all people in Westeros have horses, or live behind high walls, and not in an average small houses.

Also not all people of Westeros live close to the coastline, so if they have no horses, they will have to go on foot towards the sea. They will go together with their kids, women, elderly, baggage, food, etc. They will be slow. Much slower than Undead Army, that also doesn't need to rest, or eat, or sleep, and aren't afraid of cold or darkness (obviously that people won't travel at night). Any wight is a killer and a deadly threat, while human kids and elderly and nearly all females, are not fighters. They don't have dragonglass. And general public doesn't know that fire can kill wights. General public doesn't even know about upcoming Apocalypse.

21 hours ago, darmody said:

That being said, the living screw things up all the time. And we already know they won't be working together.

While Undead Army is functioning like a hive with single mind. NK is communicating with WW telepathically, and WW are using wights as drones. They are united and have single goal - to kill everyone. Obviously that they are more effective than humans.

19 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Just takes one ice spear. They seem to be as vulnerable to ice spears as the white walkers are to dragon glass/ valyrian steel. 

Giants have bows, their arrows are as big as ice-spears. In attack on Castle Black one of giants was using bow to kill Brothers. Which means that not only NK can kill off dragons, his Undead giants can also contribute.

13 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

The polar bear in 7x06 gives us a hint regarding this: it was put on fire and stabbed/cut by dragonglass/valyrian steel several times over before eventually succumbing, and I'd expect Viserion to be much tougher.

Good point ^_^ I totally forgot about that bear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, jcmontea said:

What would be cooler and more satisfying narratively? The Dothraki with dragonglass arackhs or without. 

Ultimatley it comes down to do they want the living to have a battlefield victory that doesn’t depend on a cheat and how big of an army do they want Dany to have after the NK is beaten. 

Dragonglass arakhs would be cooler for sure, but it wouldn't make sense.

The way the show made Jon & Co know that killing WW's also kills the wights said WW has raised gives me the impression that the war will ultimately boil down to key assassinations against the WW's, and not just end up as a massive clusterfuck of 120.000 humans vs 100.000 wights where the victor is the one who kills the other first. I could be wrong though.

7 hours ago, jcmontea said:

That air duel should be epic. Pretty sure Jon and Dany survive (especially if she is pregnant). But will be very scared for Rhaegal and Drogon. 

They could still create tension by having humans we know and like die throughout the battle and or the humans start off with the advantage but slowly the ability to raise people from the dead non stop begins to turn the tide of battle in favor of the NK. 

Thinking about it, its crazy how much is really still up in the air.

Yes, people claim that the show has become predictable, but if it was predictable, we'd know the certain fate of more characters than we currently do. We "know" some of the characters that will die (Cersei, Varys, Melissandre), but we actually don't really "know" of a single character that will survive. We can still only make calculated guesses.

As for Jon and Dany, I too both think and hope that they'll both survive, but I'm by no means certain. 
 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

This promo video is foreshadowing that NK will come to KL and Cersei.

Possibly. It was the promo video for S7 though, and I only interpret that as winter finally arriving (not just in the north but also in Kings Landing), and it did.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

And when she comes into the throne room, from leftside door, instead of main entry, the reason for that is to show to viewers stained-glass window with blue rose.

This window was shown in GOT several times, in this scene Ned refused to obey Robert's order, and to kill Dany:

Sorry Megorova, I actually wish that you where right, but you're not.
That's not a blue rose, that's the Seven Pointed Star, the symbol of the Faith of the Seven. 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

And people were complaining, that the only reason D&D wasted Jon's nearly entire time in Season 7 at Dragonstone, is to make a premise for Epic Boat Sex, totally overlooking importance of what he actually did - armed humans against wights.

Well, some people are dumb. :P
If Jon hadn't gone to Dragonstone when he did, the north would be f*cked in season 8. It might still be, but the odds look better for the northerners. 

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

@MinscS2

just saw the Game Revealed for Episode 6. 

they specifically said all their weapons did not work until Jorah stabbed it with Dragonglass which de-animated it. 

Interesting.
Might be a retcon, but I could've sworn that bear got grazed by longclaw and got poked by some dragonglass spears without really flinching and just assumed simply touching/grazing a wight with dragonglass/valyrian steel is not enough to actually cause the reanimation-spell to break. It went down by Jorahs stab because it was the first real cut it sustained.

Viseron still has his scales either way, I'd assume that whatever injury he sustains must come from something strong enough to pierce his armour. A dragonglass arrow would probably bounce off just like regular arrows, but something like a dragonglass bolt from a scorpion (theoretically, there are no scorpions in the north currently) or his big brothers jaws could probably do the trick.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Dragonglass arakhs would be cooler for sure, but it wouldn't make sense.

The way the show made Jon & Co know that killing WW's also kills the wights said WW has raised gives me the impression that the war will ultimately boil down to key assassinations against the WW's, and not just end up as a massive clusterfuck of 120.000 humans vs 100.000 wights where the victor is the one who kills the other first. I could be wrong though.

i agree with you. will come down to assassinating the NK. how that happens not sure. but i do agree with others in this thread that they need to ramp things up to the point where it is either kill the NK or humanity is doomed. that probably means he will have more than 100k wights at some point. what other reason do you think they mentioned KL population for? 

49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yes, people claim that the show has become predictable, but if it was predictable, we'd know the certain fate of more characters than we currently do. We "know" some of the characters that will die (Cersei, Varys, Melissandre), but we actually don't really "know" of a single character that will survive. We can still only make calculated guesses.

As for Jon and Dany, I too both think and hope that they'll both survive, but I'm by no means certain. 

Def. not certain. But it just feels a little more predictable due to GRRMs outline and the whole 5 kids thing, but yea who knows. Maybe they both go down and I honestly will still be on the edge of my seat because it is GoT and we never know until we know. Things only are trully obvious in retrospect and especially on this show.  

49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Possibly. It was the promo video for S7 though, and I only interpret that as winter finally arriving (not just in the north but also in Kings Landing), and it did.

Sorry Megorova, I actually wish that you where right, but you're not.
That's not a blue rose, that's the Seven Pointed Star, the symbol of the Faith of the Seven. 

Well, some people are dumb. :P
If Jon hadn't gone to Dragonstone when he did, the north would be f*cked in season 8. It might still be, but the odds look better for the northerners. 

Interesting.
Might be a retcon, but I could've sworn that bear got grazed by longclaw and got poked by some dragonglass spears without really flinching and just assumed simply touching/grazing a wight with dragonglass/valyrian steel is not enough to actually cause the reanimation-spell to break. It went down by Jorahs stab because it was the first real cut it sustained.

yea it got hit by a sword but don't think it was Longclaw. 

49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Viseron still has his scales either way, I'd assume that whatever injury he sustains must come from something strong enough to pierce his armour. A dragonglass arrow would probably bounce off just like regular arrows, but something like a dragonglass bolt from a scorpion (theoretically, there are no scorpions in the north currently) or his big brothers jaws could probably do the trick.

 

 

i agree. still have to pierce those scales. 

although I think Viserion is going down with a Drogon fire blast to the face. "golden crown for a king."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Megorova said:

This promo video is foreshadowing that NK will come to KL and Cersei.

Look closely 1:05-1:20, Cersei exhalation becomes visible, because of sudden drop in temperature, and then the view switches to eyes of NK.

Also in Dany's vision, there's snow in Red Keep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7VuGknEfQY

And when she comes into the throne room, from leftside door, instead of main entry, the reason for that is to show to viewers stained-glass window with blue rose.

This window was shown in GOT several times, in this scene Ned refused to obey Robert's order, and to kill Dany:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/22/96/48/229648f76994b773740ead37b8d2e71f.jpg

Seems that this blue rose symbolises Jon, thus in that scene the meaning of it, is that Dany came to Red Keep, that is seized by winter, for Jon's sake.

Add to that - they never retreat, they keep going until their target is eliminated, or all of them are killed. The episode in Hardhome doesn't count - Jon and wildlings managed to escape only because of water, that's the only reason why Undead Army didn't chased after them.

Maybe they will destroy Undead Army in The North, but NK will escape with Ice Dragon to King's Landing.

And people were complaining, that the only reason D&D wasted Jon's nearly entire time in Season 7 at Dragonstone, is to make a premise for Epic Boat Sex, totally overlooking importance of what he actually did - armed humans against wights.

NK can use Ice Dragon to turn dozens or even hundreds people into wights, with single breath. Ice Dragon's blue fire is not fire at all.

Not to mention that NK could have went on this side of The Wall even without dragon. He was gathering undead giants, and chains to break the gates, how it was done during attack of wildlings on Castle Black. When WW killed all Children, wights became able to approach The Wall. NK was planning to break Wall's gates, go thru them, and then use his giants to break gates of all castles all over Westeros to get to people inside. Watch Youtube video "Wildlings Attack The Wall With Giants and Mammoths!", 3:30-6:30.

First they tried to break the gate with ropes, metal hooks and mammonth, but when ropes got burned, and mammonth escaped scared by fire, one of the giants lifted the gate, in 45 seconds.

And NK has dozens of giants, and lots of chains that wouldn't burn or break.

agree. lots of foreshadowing for NK going to KL. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're missing something, here. Didn't the humans beat the White Walkers way back when? How the heck did they do that? Without knowing they were coming. Eventually with the Children's help, I 'spose, but also without dragons.

Magic, I guess. But humans have magic now, too, with Bran and presumably Sam will find stuff in Winterfell's library or crypt or whatever. Plus, dragons. 

The Army of the Dead really doesn't sound all that powerful considering. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Giants weren't there. If even one Undead giant was there, Jon&Co wouldn't have even one chance to survive. NK didn't brought giants with him for that battle, which means that to kill Jon&Co wasn't NK's intention. He didn't brought giants, he didn't used ice-spears to kill Jon or his people. This battle was a reconnaissance, to see what people can do. And also to either retrieve captured wight, or to destroy it.

...Giants have bows, their arrows are as big as ice-spears. In attack on Castle Black one of giants was using bow to kill Brothers. Which means that not only NK can kill off dragons, his Undead giants can also contribute.

The Night King didn't bring giants because he was testing the Wightbusters.

Or because the show didn't want to spend money on them.

Or because they couldn't fit them in logistically with the action sequence they had in their heads. 

Or because they just forgot.

 

 

I see no reason why Zombie Giants can't be eliminated the same way regular zombies are. Jon & Co. were cutting through them like a hot knife through butter. Even if giants are marginally tougher, it has to be easier than killing a living giant. Because killing undead humans is way easier than killing living humans, if you've got the right weapons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, darmody said:

The Night King didn't bring giants because he was testing the Wightbusters.

Or because the show didn't want to spend money on them.

Or because they couldn't fit them in logistically with the action sequence they had in their heads. 

Or because they just forgot.

 

Too heavy for a frozen lake ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, darmody said:

I think we're missing something, here. Didn't the humans beat the White Walkers way back when? How the heck did they do that? Without knowing they were coming. Eventually with the Children's help, I 'spose, but also without dragons.

Magic, I guess. But humans have magic now, too, with Bran and presumably Sam will find stuff in Winterfell's library or crypt or whatever. Plus, dragons. 

The Army of the Dead really doesn't sound all that powerful considering. 

You do make a good point.

if one dude with his magic sword beat them last time than what chance do they have when they are faced with a dude with a magic sword, a girl with her two dragons, 100k of the greatest cavalry the world has seen armed with their magic weapons and an all powerful tree wizard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Sorry Megorova, I actually wish that you where right, but you're not.
That's not a blue rose, that's the Seven Pointed Star, the symbol of the Faith of the Seven. 

Seven Pointed Star is a Seven Pointed Star. But in throne room of Red Keep, there are two windows with Seven Pointed Stars, and blue rose in their center. Yeah, the glasswork is poorly done, so it isn't obvious that it's a rose <- that was intentional, not to make it obvious.

http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/ned-stark-in-the-throne-room_518x306.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5b/04/69/5b046901ae6ec1267ae5d965063e9d58.jpg

In the book version "A Clash of Kings. Chapter 48. While in the House of the Undying in Qarth, Daenerys Targaryen has a vision of a sweet-scented blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winter_rose

In GOT version instead of showing a real flower, they showed stained-glass window, with blue rose in center of a Seven Pointed Star.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f4fca86e79f8801f7fe368eed199010e

Before her coronation, Cersei removed those glassworks out of throne room, and instead of them installed lions.

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?&c=sc&w=630&h=354&url=https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/03/Screen-Shot-2017-03-30-at-1.01.28-PM-2-630x354.jpg

And behind Iron Throne

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-05/24/19/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-01/sub-buzz-24124-1495670321-11.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

The Star that was originally behind the Throne had red center.

Why in that vision (GOT version) Dany came not from main entrance? It's to show to viewers that window.

The ceiling is ruined, but glass in window somehow remained undamaged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, valgrel said:

Too heavy for a frozen lake ? 

They're tall enough not to drown there. After Jon went away, NK also went somewhere, and when he came back he brought chains. Which means that those chains were brought there by giants. Also it was giants who went in water and chained dead dragon, and dragged him on shore. Probably giants were walking in front of those columns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Seven Pointed Star is a Seven Pointed Star. But in throne room of Red Keep, there are two windows with Seven Pointed Stars, and blue rose in their center. Yeah, the glasswork is poorly done, so it isn't obvious that it's a rose <- that was intentional, not to make it obvious.

http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/ned-stark-in-the-throne-room_518x306.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5b/04/69/5b046901ae6ec1267ae5d965063e9d58.jpg

In the book version "A Clash of Kings. Chapter 48. While in the House of the Undying in Qarth, Daenerys Targaryen has a vision of a sweet-scented blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winter_rose

In GOT version instead of showing a real flower, they showed stained-glass window, with blue rose in center of a Seven Pointed Star.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f4fca86e79f8801f7fe368eed199010e

Before her coronation, Cersei removed those glassworks out of throne room, and instead of them installed lions.

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?&c=sc&w=630&h=354&url=https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/03/Screen-Shot-2017-03-30-at-1.01.28-PM-2-630x354.jpg

And behind Iron Throne

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-05/24/19/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-01/sub-buzz-24124-1495670321-11.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

The Star that was originally behind the Throne had red center.

Why in that vision (GOT version) Dany came not from main entrance? It's to show to viewers that window.

The ceiling is ruined, but glass in window somehow remained undamaged.

Hugh... well i’ll be. Hadn’t noticed the blue flower imagery before. 

Thanks for sharing! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×