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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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5 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I think you overestimate people's ability to see through BS when the BS conforms to their initial convictions. 

Confirmation bias is a huge thing. For most of the lords of westeros who fought the mad king and heard terrible stories about him they are already predisposed to think the worst of Daenerys. If they hear stories about how terrible she is psycologically its much more probable they take it as confirmation that they were correct than that they respond like scientists - "hmm interesting. I need to test this hypothesis. Let me go gather more evidence." 

That is why fake news is a thing. People just believe it because thats what they want to believe they don't say hugh let me gather more evidence. 

There is little or no basis for the claim that most people's initial convictions would incline them to support Cersei and oppose Daenerys. 

Jon's father fought the mad king, and Jon now supports Dany. Lord Tarly fought for Dany's father. These facts are conveniently forgotten by the "no one would support the dragon lady" crowd. As I said above, it is highly artificial to keep talking about the terrible stories and not allow any consideration of good stories. People from Westeros already support Dany. She could have better PR though. This is another rather implausible failing of her advisers. All this stuff about "mad king's daughter." If Tyrion and Varys were still as intelligent as they were early in the story, we'd hear more about "Rhaegar's sister." The crown prince, as far as I can tell, is still well regarded by many people in Westeros. 

There is absolutely no necessity to see the lords as acting like scientists. And again I repeat a point that just doesn't seem to register properly: These men derive their status, wealth, and, to a large extent, their honor from the land and the proper management of the land. Worry about stories? Why would they worry about stories when they see their land robbed of its wealth, their peasant robbed of food and left to starve? Who is going to take care of the holdfasts, the mills, and other property during the coming winter? Dead peasants surely won't do the jobs. Confirmation of bias be damned. I can't believe that the lords and the men (one more time, the sons of peasants and villagers) would allow Cersei to do the things she has done, much less participate in these things. 

Fake news, or more likely accurate news, about Cersei would also be a factor. The "evil you know" argument is weak. For one thing, Cersei is hated by many people. These people have no experience with Dany and thus no reason to hate her.  Also, the argument fails to take into account the matter of power. The Targaryen forces have it on their side. Politics, in our world and in Westeros, shows that power can overcome a lot of psychological inclinations. 

Finally, Qavo is a book character. He doesn't appear in the show, does he? The bad reports abouts Daenerys in the show come, as far as I remember, only from the Lannisters. I could be wrong about this. However, reports and rumors from the east would have come to the western continent from traders, sailors, fishermen, etc. Why would we presume that these reports and rumors were predominantly negative in regard to the Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains? 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Even though dragons are smart, they can't distinguish one horserider from another, while they're flying high above battle field. So they would've burned Lannisters and Dothraki all together. So instead she took into battle only one dragon, and directed him who to burn.

Other time when she used dragons during sea battle, she took all three because then everyone else in that fleet were her enemies.

And in a battle beyong The Wall, Dany with Drogon landed close to Jon's people, and while she directed Drogon who to burn, her other dragons were further from living people and thus burned only wights.

There is no problem here at all. Everyone in the fleet was an enemy. Right. And everyone in the Lannister/Reach column is an enemy. Bring the dragons in fast and give the column overwhelming blasts of fire. As likely as not, you would destroy or at least disable the ballista. It is overwhelmingly likely that you would create utter chaos in the enemy force. They probably wouldn't even be able to form into a battle line. Then you could bring in the cavalry. The main reason things like this don't happen is that the show runners don't want them to. 

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41 minutes ago, Jabul said:

Volunteering is in no way necessary. One more time, this is a quasi medieval society. If your liege tells you to go, you would go. The reasons to go are blatantly obvious. The preservation of your life, your land, and your titles are powerful ones. Any lord with half of a functioning brain would send someone (not ask for volunteers).

In the very first episode of GOT, one of the watchers escaped from NW just because he saw one little girl wight.

After the end of battle, Dany's captives refused to submit to her, until they saw how she burned Randyll and his son. Then everyone bended the knee.

Fear can disable even fully functioning brain.

So if someone will send a messenger to Mother of Dragons, most likely that messenger will escape on his way there.

1 hour ago, Jabul said:

What information are you referring to? All of this "No one would go there" stuff has a weak to non-existent basis.

My basis is that no one aside from Jon went to meet with Dany. KNOWING that she REALLY has dragons. Varys, Tyrion, Theon, Yara heard that she has dragons, but they haven't heard it from reliable source. While to Jon rumours that Dany indeed has dragons were confirmed in Tyrions letter, and Jon trusted Tyrion.

1 hour ago, Jabul said:

What about the information that she may be the Princess That Is Promised, the hope of humanity against the threat of the Night King? 

First of all until S7E7 Jon and previous Lord Commander of NW were the only people who ever saw wights on this side of The Wall. General public doesn't even know about their existance. Furthermore even in far North beyond The Wall there are very small number of living people that saw Night's King, and thus know about his existance. 

Furthermore in Westeros fire religion isn't common, so people there aren't aware of that prophecy. At least not with a context where their supposed messiah is a Princess, and not a Prince. Last time they heard any information regarding this matter, it was from Red Pristess Melisandre which claimed that Stannis is the Prince that was promissed, but then ditched him, and escaped shortly prior his last battle.

1 hour ago, Jabul said:

This is flat out false. People from Dorne, the Reach,

Wrong.

Varys met with Olenna and Sands. First he negotiated with them, provided them with information about Dany, convinced them that she isn't a monster as others depict her, convinced them to join her, and only then they went to meet with her.

Quote

and the Iron Islands met with Daenerys. Do you mean to say that they met with her against their desires?

Yara and Theon had nowhere to go, and they needed to escape from Euron. So they went to Dany, and brought their fleet as a present for her, so they hoped that she won't feed them to her dragons, if she indeed has dragons.

But originally it was Euron's plan to forge an alliance with Dragon Queen. Only mad man like him was able to come up with an idea like that. Unlike Euron, Jon went to Dany not to make any offers to her, on the contrary he wanted something from her (dragonglass, and her dragons). He refused to bend the knee, he refused to give the North to her, he refused to forge an alliance, nevertheless he was brazen enough to instead ask her help. Unlike Euron, he isn't crazy, he's just fearless, because he already died once.

Also it was Jorah who brought Tyrion to Dany. And I doubt that Varys was going to just come up to Dany together with Tyrion, immidiately after their arrival to Meereen. I'm sure that before that, he was going to observe her for some time, to make an opinion about her character. And only if that opinion will be favorable, to inform her about their presence. 

Aside from Jon (and crazy Euron) no one was courageous enough to initiate contact with Dany. And he planned to go to Dragonstone even before he received invitation/summon letter from Tyrion.

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2 hours ago, Jabul said:

People from Westeros already support Dany.

She herself doesn't believe this:

" VARYS: Cersei controls fewer than half the Seven Kingdoms. The lord of Westeros despise her. Even before your arrival, they plotted against her. Now...

DAENERYS: They cry out for their true queen? They drink secret toasts to my health?

DAENERYS walks closer to VARYS.

DAENERYS: People used to tell my brother that sort of thing, and he was stupid enough to believe them."

2 hours ago, Jabul said:

She could have better PR though. This is another rather implausible failing of her advisers.

It was her own failure. If she wanted to be recognised by people of Westeros, she should have went to them, initiated comunication with royal Houses, showed herself to people. Instead she settled on Dragonstone, and expected that people will come to her castle, and bend the knee before her throne, and ask her to be their Queen.

2 hours ago, Jabul said:

As I said above, it is highly artificial to keep talking about the terrible stories and not allow any consideration of good stories.

What good stories? Do you mean the one where she came to region where slavery was a natural course of life, broke their social structure, butchered nobles, and ex-slaves rebelled against her for ruining their lives and bringing chaos to their world?

Or maybe this good story?->

"FENNESZ: Before you freed me, I belonged to Master Mighdal. I was tutor to his children. I taught them languages and history. They know a great deal about your family because of me. Little Calla is only seven, but she admires you very much.

DAENERYS: I hope I can prove worthy of her admiration. What can I do for you?

FENNESZ: When you took the city, the children begged me not to leave the house. But Master Mighdal and I agreed that I must. So I lost my home. Now I live on the streets.

DAENERYS: I have outfitted mess halls to feed all former slaves and barracks to shelter them.

FENNESZ: I do not mean to offend, your grace. I went to one of these places. The young prey on the old. Take what they want and beat us if we resist.

DAENERYS: My Unsullied will make them safe again in short order my friend, this I promise you.

FENNESZ: Even if they are safe, who would I be there? What purpose would I serve? With my master, I was a teacher. I had the respect and love of these children.

DAENERYS: What is it that you want from me?

FENNESZ: Your grace, I ask you to let me sell myself back to Master Mighdal.

DAENERYS: You want to return to a man who owned you, like a goat or a chair?

FENNESZ: Please, your grace, the young may rejoice in the new world you've build for them. But for those of us too old to change there is only fear and squalor. I am not alone. There are many outside waiting to beg the same".

 

She always does what she wants, and for some reason she thinks that everyone else want the same things as she does. She could've just asked. But nooooo, without bunch of advisors she can't think of something as simple as that.

2 hours ago, Jabul said:

All this stuff about "mad king's daughter." If Tyrion and Varys were still as intelligent as they were early in the story, we'd hear more about "Rhaegar's sister."

In the beginning Jon was 'Ned Stark's son' or 'the Bastard of Winterfell'. But then he earned status of Lord Commander of Night's Watch. And build for himself a new name - The King in the North. Name given to him for his accomplishments in the North, by HIS people, by northerens. While all Dany's aliases and titles were made in Essos. For westerosi she is still nothing more than 'mad king's daughter'. They don't know her. 

2 hours ago, Jabul said:

The "evil you know" argument is weak. For one thing, Cersei is hated by many people. These people have no experience with Dany and thus no reason to hate her.  

And no reason to love her, or respect, or trust her.

2 hours ago, Jabul said:

Why would we presume that these reports and rumors were predominantly negative in regard to the Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains? 

Mother of Dragons <- monster.

Breaker of Chains <- creator of chaos.

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3 hours ago, Jabul said:

There is no problem here at all. Everyone in the fleet was an enemy. Right. And everyone in the Lannister/Reach column is an enemy. Bring the dragons in fast and give the column overwhelming blasts of fire. As likely as not, you would destroy or at least disable the ballista. It is overwhelmingly likely that you would create utter chaos in the enemy force. They probably wouldn't even be able to form into a battle line. Then you could bring in the cavalry. The main reason things like this don't happen is that the show runners don't want them to. 

If she would've came with dragon and attacked first, only with dragon, then her enemies would've just scattered all over those fields. So, in this case, she will need to chase after each and every soldier and burn them all one by one, and one, and one, and one, and one, and one, and one more... breathe, Drogon, breathe, just few more thousands to burn ^_^ She needed Dothraki there, to engage enemy soldiers in a fight, or chase after them. So Dothraki were mingled among enemy troops, thus she needed to be careful not to burn them too. And she brought one dragon to deliver precise spot fire instead of an all covering carpet attack.

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Basically, Cersei blows up the Vatican in the middle of Catholic Italy, is suddenly loved by everyone, Randyll Tarly, a person who has fought for Targs before (hell, he was the only one to win a battle for Aerys the Mad) suddenly loves madwomen that hate traditions like the Faith of the Seven because... xenophobia? Of course, every house in the Reach follows because... reasons?

The Iron Islands are conveniently erased from Dany's side so only Euron's side remains, conveniently erasing any moral ambiguity on what the Iron Islanders could be (they need to be the clear-cut baddies, okay) and of course Daenerys can't be seen with the revenge-mad reminder that D & D's shit does in fact stink that is the Pornish plot, so they're gone too, meaning all those Westerosi allies Varys made for Dany in the previous season? Totally useless.

But hey, at least Lena Headey gets to stay for another year! Because, just like how they dragged out Littlefinger's death this year with that forced feud bollocks, I assure you, D & D only understand that you save your SHOCKING™ moments for the penultimate or last episodes in the season, meaning Cersei will, without a doubt, be forcibly stretched through the season, somehow surviving on sheer plot armour alone.

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2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

But hey, at least Lena Headey gets to stay for another year! 

I don't know. As much rant as the show and the war deserves, I don't think removing Lena would have lead anywhere. The problem is more that she is sticked with super clue to King's Landing. Nobody can move in and have his own trouble with the town. 

At this point I am not even sure if it would have been better for Stannis to take KL and then be besieged for 2 years. Because Cersei in KL is just boring. Like everybody teleports around the map and Cersei can't even meet Dany for an armistice outside of KL. 

I mean she has to die there because she can't flee or move anywhere. And that's why this all feels so stupid. Jaime has no problem travelling. he even was in Dorne. But all Cersei ever did was visiting the north.

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:16 PM, Megorova said:

1. In the very first episode of GOT, one of the watchers escaped from NW just because he saw one little girl wight.

2. After the end of battle, Dany's captives refused to submit to her, until they saw how she burned Randyll and his son. Then everyone bended the knee.

Fear can disable even fully functioning brain.

3. So if someone will send a messenger to Mother of Dragons, most likely that messenger will escape on his way there.

4. My basis is that no one aside from Jon went to meet with Dany. KNOWING that she REALLY has dragons. Varys, Tyrion, Theon, Yara heard that she has dragons, but they haven't heard it from reliable source. While to Jon rumours that Dany indeed has dragons were confirmed in Tyrions letter, and Jon trusted Tyrion.

5. First of all until S7E7 Jon and previous Lord Commander of NW were the only people who ever saw wights on this side of The Wall. General public doesn't even know about their existance. Furthermore even in far North beyond The Wall there are very small number of living people that saw Night's King, and thus know about his existance. 

Furthermore in Westeros fire religion isn't common, so people there aren't aware of that prophecy. At least not with a context where their supposed messiah is a Princess, and not a Prince. Last time they heard any information regarding this matter, it was from Red Pristess Melisandre which claimed that Stannis is the Prince that was promissed, but then ditched him, and escaped shortly prior his last battle.

6. Wrong.

Varys met with Olenna and Sands. First he negotiated with them, provided them with information about Dany, convinced them that she isn't a monster as others depict her, convinced them to join her, and only then they went to meet with her.

Yara and Theon had nowhere to go, and they needed to escape from Euron. So they went to Dany, and brought their fleet as a present for her, so they hoped that she won't feed them to her dragons, if she indeed has dragons.

But originally it was Euron's plan to forge an alliance with Dragon Queen. Only mad man like him was able to come up with an idea like that. Unlike Euron, Jon went to Dany not to make any offers to her, on the contrary he wanted something from her (dragonglass, and her dragons). He refused to bend the knee, he refused to give the North to her, he refused to forge an alliance, nevertheless he was brazen enough to instead ask her help. Unlike Euron, he isn't crazy, he's just fearless, because he already died once.

Also it was Jorah who brought Tyrion to Dany. And I doubt that Varys was going to just come up to Dany together with Tyrion, immidiately after their arrival to Meereen. I'm sure that before that, he was going to observe her for some time, to make an opinion about her character. And only if that opinion will be favorable, to inform her about their presence. 

Aside from Jon (and crazy Euron) no one was courageous enough to initiate contact with Dany. And he planned to go to Dragonstone even before he received invitation/summon letter from Tyrion.

 

It is worthwhile to go back to my assertion in my original post on this thread: 

"In Season 7, the whole thing turns into a ridiculous mishmash, with characters, both high-born and low-born, acting absurdly out of character. People not only forget or ignore their values, they often act directly against their self interest. Also, several main players seem to have occupied the off season by overdosing on some kind of "stupid pills." Their IQ has dropped about 60 or 70 points. This is particularly true of anti-Cersei characters like Varys and Tyrion. As many posters on different threads have noted, the heavy hand of the writers can't be missed here."

There is nothing on this thread, including the above-quoted post, that seriously challenges this assertion. Much supports the assertion. 

1. The ranger saw a lot more than one little wight,and his terror is no more relevant to people's feelings about Dany than it is to people's hatred of Cersei and her creepy adviser and the thing (undead knight, zombie, whatever) that guards her.

2. In the first place, this is not fully true. Some people bent the knee quickly. Dany incinerated two people.Then the remaining men knelt to her.There is no evidence she will treat these men badly.There are strong indications, based on her history with her followers, that she will treat them well.This easily falls in line with how other winners of wars in Martin's universe act. Nothing in the scene in any way shows that Westerosi lords in general would be terrified of going to Dragonstone for a talk.

3. Nothing in the scene in any way indicates that someone sent to Dragonstone would be any more afraid than someone sent to KL to talk to a "queen" who blows up a sept, killing her own relatives and a great many others. 

4. It is extremely likely that Tyrion and Varys had better info than Jon did. After all, they were in Essos (Pentos, I believe). This was before Season 7, so both men were still highly intelligent. They had not undergone the incredible loss of brain power that this season has inexplicably cursed them with. Indeed, Varys was supposed to be the guy who knew what you were going to have for breakfast before your servant even came home from the market with the food. The Spider convinces the Imp that the two of them should undertake a long journey to meet with the Mother of Dragons. 

Your later statements about Jorah, Tyrion, and Varys are a mishmash of error and speculation. You can claim that Varys was going to observe Daenerys first, but there is nothing in the show which confirms this. Furthermore, the Spider had already formed a very positive opinion of the young queen. He praises her highly to Tyrion. Jorah is a man from Westeros. He not only met with Dany, he fell in love with her. The birth of the dragons strengthened  his devotion,. Now he is in Westeros. He can give testimony in her favor. He is not the most credible witness. He can't be as bad, however, as Ser Creep of the Torture Chamber and various Lannister apologists who might try to defend the Red Wedding. 

5. Why would it matter on which side of the Wall the wights and Walkers were seen? Lots of people have seen them now. If Daenerys had competent advisers, some very important people would have seen a functioning wight. We'll take it as given that the numb skull plan to capture one of the things went off as presented. Why show it to that back-stabbing "queen" down in King's Landing? Much better audiences are available. Competent advisers should be able to arrange a showing to a group of lords and maesters. Then lots of people in Westeros would know about the threat from the North. 

The prophecy about the Prince That Was Promised is not limited to the worshipers of the Lord of Light. Others know of it. One more time I'll go back to my main points from my original post. It would be easy for Dany's friends and admirers to spread the word about the prophecy if the show runners had not arranged for the imbibing of "stupid pills" in the off season. Even if there were no such organized PR, it is possible that rumors could have come from the eastern continent. Why wouldn't these rumors have gained as much traction in the west as negative rumors about the dragon queen? 

 6. I stated that people from Westeros met with Dany.You claim this is wrong because Varys met with them before they went to see Dany.This is a complete non sequitur. The fact that there was a prior meeting with an adviser does not show that the people at said meeting didn't go to the second meeting. At any rate, your whole point has nothing to do with the main issue. Varys could meet with other lords.There's no reason to say that he wouldn't be just as persuasive to lords of, say, the Riverlands as he was to Olenna.

 

I'm having trouble with the system. Things won't print correctly. I'll stop for now. I'll deal with other matters in a later post. 

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On 9/11/2017 at 9:53 AM, House Rootbreaker said:

As they say in the professional wrestling biz, every strong babyface needs an even stronger heel.  The show needed Cersei this season far more than the plot did.  I know the Night King is built up and very strong, but with no speaking lines he's just not that versatile in how he can impact the story.  Cersei was needed as a good counterpoint to everything Dany and Jon were trying to accomplish. But this is an invention of the TV show as we know GRRM likes gray characters, but season 7 seemed to promote black and white characters the most. The dividing line between good and evil is more prevalent than ever and that's exactly what GRRM didn't want of this story.

Is Dany really that much of a good girl? Plotwise, that is. I mean, I know she's one of the show's darlings and she's been puffed up as humanity's Last Best Hope, or whatever. But the fans like her as much for being a "badass" as being a heroine who looks good naked. And the show has made a point this year of putting in our heads, "oh noez, what if she's evil and burns everyone?"

There was a multi-seasonal effort to paint her as Perfect Princess Dany, who's gonna Abe Lincoln the world and whom other characters worship as a goddess or something. And who was also badass like a man, only with nice boobs. Then they had to do a turnabout in Mereen, because Iraq War message or something, and she started getting kinda unlikable. They mixed good little queen, goddess worship, and boobies with crucifixion and burning people alive. 

Which is all to say, if they're gonna flirt with Mad Queen-ism, they don't need the most villainous villain possible. Anyway, this is Game of Thrones, not pro wrestling. and they don't need anyone to be an all-out villain.

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On 9/11/2017 at 10:45 AM, jcmontea said:

Agreed. I do think that is how it will end. With literally everyone having turned on Cersei. Or at least it needs to. How can anyone support this latest betryal of the living.

i do think the idea of people reacting negatively to Dany is an interesting one given the Dothraki, her father and how she is def. not pro nobility. Hell, i think if we hadn't had Dany's point of view, she has all the trapings of an antagonist. 

But, the way it went down this year you could def see the hands of the writers woking to keep Cersei around versus it feeling like a natural ourgrowth of the story. Almost like a video game where the computer gets much more difficult to keep the game competitive. 

All the arguments against Dany were perfectly reasonable, except that the alternative was Cersei, who from almost any perspective is worse. I might wonder where these Dothraki will settle, whether I want a 100,000-man army of people who rape and pillage instead of buying and selling in my country even temporarily, if I want as queen the daughter of the madman who burned everyone for fun and who herself crucified over a hundred noblemen in Mereen just 'cause. 

 

On the other hand, Cersei...well, you know. There's no reason whatsoever she should be queen. Randal Tarly, if he really cared about keeping dirty foreigners out of Westeros, should have sacked King's Landing himself. Dany's unfitness is a perfect argument against Cersei, in fact. "The Dragon Queen is such a serious threat that we can't afford another second of the Lion/Stag Queen!"

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On 9/13/2017 at 1:13 PM, lancerman said:

-she was accepted as queen because the dead former king was her husband and the last two former kings were her sons. There are no Baratheon heirs that are legitimized true orbs from Robert's families and no Lannister's related to Joffrey or Tommen supersede her. There is nobody close enough in the show verse to make claim on Robert's crown than Cersei. 

You mean the husband she was accused of killing, and for whose murder she was supposed to be judged the very day the Sept coincidentally blew up. And Tommen, who coincidentally killed himself the day the Sept blew up. There's loads of legitimacy, there. 

As for no one superseding her claim, hello! Jaime, her brother and Tommen's uncle-father is standing right next to her! But he runs her army instead of ruling because...he just so happened to be on his way back from the Twins when Tommen offed himself? 

You are free to point out no one wants an admitted kingslayer to be king. But at least Jaime was pardoned. Cersei was an accused kingslayer, about to be found guilty before she evaded justice by becoming a queenslayer and kinslayer. 

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On 9/13/2017 at 1:13 PM, lancerman said:

-the official story is that Baelor's destruction is an accident and nobody is going to challenge her because she is queen. 

But she only became queen by blowing up the Sept. Catch-22!

I could see if she was already queen with a system of alliances, armies, and a power structure already in place. (Though the Mad King inspired a rebellion by being less evil.) But when the Sept went kablooey she was just an accused criminal (and admittedly a noblewoman and member of the royal family, with the Lannister army theoretically loyal to her) who said, "Okay, I'm queen now." No one would follow her because she's queen, because she wasn't queen, see. She merely said she was. 

Even if one accepts the "she's the only nobleperson left in King's Landing" argument (for two seconds until Jaime shows up with an army), the funny thing about feudalism is that you don't get to rule just because you're the only one in the capital saying "I rule." 

 

There are people challenging Cersei, by the way. Putting aside Dorne--which was already in rebellion under Tommen and apparently doesn't exist anymore--and the Reach--which apparently was conquered in a day and everyone who mattered besides Olestra went along with the Tarlies--hello! The North--which last time I checked is kinda big--doesn't accept Cersei. Nor does the Vale. Nor do the Ironborn who aren't Urine. 

(The Riverlands and Stormlands are unable to comment because they don't exist anymore.)

Actually, no one besides Urine supported Cersei except the people who have most reason not to. That is, the populace of King's Landing and certain Reach lords. 

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On 9/13/2017 at 2:52 PM, Apoplexy said:

Everybody suspects it was cersei. But there isn't enough evidence. She can claim it was an accident.

Oh, okay, then. It's not like a whole war started because people merely suspected Joffrey might be illegitimate. Nor did a mob tried to murder him. 

 

And it's not like pastry chefs in the only restaurant in the Riverlands know Cersei blew up the Sept. That's the sorta thing regular people suspend judgement about. Because innocent until proven guilty, if that concept even exists in Westeros. 

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On 9/14/2017 at 10:15 AM, Megorova said:

Mace brought his troops to King's Landing, shortly prior Margaery's walk of shame. After it was aborted, Olenna went back to Highgarden, but Mace and his troop stayed where they were - at KL. Do you really think that he sent his troops away, before his son's trial? I'm 100% sure that they all stayed with him in KL, just in case if trial will go bad.

Maybe they haven't died in explosion, which doesn't mean that Cersei and her new Black Guards just let them go. Cersei killed them all, Red Wedding style. 

Ignoring the fact that you're pulling this out of thin air, the "black guard" Cersei organized when, exactly? When Tommen was king and she was under house arrest in the Red Keep? 

The Stark allied forces were ambushed in Frey territory by a Frey army (and I suppose Bolton forces as well) already in existence and planning to carry out the operation ahead of time. And the Starks were caught off guard, partying and drinking, under the misperception that the Freys were friendlies. 

On the other hand, Cersei couldn't make a move until after the Sept was blown and Tommen was dead. By that point the Tyrell forces, if they were in King's Landing and if they weren't sleepwalking, would've been alert to danger. What do you imagine, they stood around waiting for the CSI team to sweep the rubble for clues while Cersei brought the Kingsguard to order and planned the slaughter?

No, had they been in town in force they would've killed Cersei before Jaime could get back to save her. 

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34 minutes ago, darmody said:

Oh, okay, then. It's not like a whole war started because people merely suspected Joffrey might be illegitimate. Nor did a mob tried to murder him. 

 

And it's not like pastry chefs in the only restaurant in the Riverlands know Cersei blew up the Sept. That's the sorta thing regular people suspend judgement about. Because innocent until proven guilty, if that concept even exists in Westeros. 

The difference here is that there isn't anyone left to challenge cersei. And the smallfolk of KL aren't going to storm the Red Keep just to die in the process. Winter is here and they will be more concerned about their own survival.

 

16 minutes ago, darmody said:

On the other hand, Cersei couldn't make a move until after the Sept was blown and Tommen was dead. By that point the Tyrell forces, if they were in King's Landing and if they weren't sleepwalking, would've been alert to danger. What do you imagine, they stood around waiting for the CSI team to sweep the rubble for clues while Cersei brought the Kingsguard to order and planned the slaughter?

No, had they been in town in force they would've killed Cersei before Jaime could get back to save her. 

There was nobody left to command the armies, if they survived the blast at the sept. And I'm sure cersei wouldn't have forgotten about the Tyrell soldiers.

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@Appoplexy is a good example of how show defenders will just make up anything, anything to make sense of the nonsense the show has become. If Dan and Dave intended things to be as you claim, Appoplexy, they'd have shown it in some capacity. There's no Watsonian explanation for anything like that in the show any more. All you're proving is that even your hastily-crafted excuse plots are still better plots than what David 'They're serious about the fucking polar bear' Benioff and Dan 'Get me the goddamn polar bear' Weiss can come up with.

In absence of the Watsonian explanation, there's only the Doylist explanation, and that is...

Dan and Dave don't give a shit about logistics, and think that viewers won't think about anything for more than a second. Once Doran Martell is killed, of course they all accepted a bunch of bastard women taking his place. They're the only Dornish characters the casual viewers know the face of, so they're the only ones that could lead them, according to D & D. And when those women died, of course the Dornish just vanished into nonexistence. It's not them bristling for war was the reason Ellaria supposedly got away with kinslaying, nope, their drive for revenge is all gone once their army's 'decapitated'.

It's the same reason why killing all the male Freys will magically mean the Frey armies no longer exist, or why the Stormlands just don't exist any more at all, or why Dragonstone was completely abandoned when Daenerys found it, without a token force or even smallfolk to show for it. Dan and Dave just aren't thinking about the armies. Unless there's a high-paid actor to lead them, D & D assume that the viewer has forgotten about their existence.

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3 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

@Appoplexy is a good example of how show defenders will just make up anything, anything to make sense of the nonsense the show has become. If Dan and Dave intended things to be as you claim, Appoplexy, they'd have shown it in some capacity. There's no Watsonian explanation for anything like that in the show any more. All you're proving is that even your hastily-crafted excuse plots are still better plots than what David 'They're serious about the fucking polar bear' Benioff and Dan 'Get me the goddamn polar bear' Weiss can come up with.

In absence of the Watsonian explanation, there's only the Doylist explanation, and that is...

Dan and Dave don't give a shit about logistics, and think that viewers won't think about anything for more than a second. Once Doran Martell is killed, of course they all accepted a bunch of bastard women taking his place. And when those women died, of course the Dornish just vanished into nonexistence. It's not them bristling for war was the reason Ellaria supposedly got away with kinslaying, nope, theor drive is all gone once their army's 'decapitated'.

It's the same reason why killing all the male Freys will magically mean the Frey armies no longer exist, or why the Stormlands just don't exist any more at all, or why Dragonstone was completely abandoned when Daenerys found it, without a token force or even smallfolk to show for it. Dan and Dave just aren't thinking about the armies. Unless there's a high-paid actor to lead them, D & D assume that the viewer has forgotten about their existence.

Isn't there a difference between something not existing and being irelevant for the plot? 

Elaria is dead. Dorne now has to figure out who its next leader is. That process is not necessarily a quick one since the rulling house has been almost wiped out.

Why does the story have to focus on it if its not relevant to what is happening between the main chracters in the show? 

What happened with the Russian who escaped in the woods in the Sopranos? Does he no longer exist or is it just not important. 

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Isn't there a difference between something not existing and being irelevant for the plot? 

Elaria is dead. Dorne now has to figure out who its next leader is. That process is not necessarily a quick one since the rulling house has been almost wiped out.

Why does the story have to focus on it if its not relevant to what is happening between the main chracters in the show? 

What happened with the Russian who escaped in the woods in the Sopranos? Does he no longer exist or is it just not important. 

Story doesn't have to focus on it, but a throwaway line showing what the Dornish are up to (and frankly, given they were happy to let Ellaria be their leader, they should be still hell-bent on revenge, but whatever) would be nice.

But, as I said, the Doylist explanation is D & D don't give a shit about resolving this because they know their windowlicker audience have already forgotten about Dorne outside of them being some fruity, sex-crazed olive people (with one cool guy who died by showboating).

The same applies to what happened to the Tyrell army in King's Landing, what happened to the Stormlands, et cetera, et cetera. They don't care, don't think about it, and thus don't resolve it.

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14 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Story doesn't have to focus on it, but a throwaway line showing what the Dornish are up to (and frankly, given they were happy to let Ellaria be their leader, they should be still hell-bent on revenge, but whatever) would be nice.

But, as I said, the Doylist explanation is D & D don't give a shit about resolving this because they know their windowlicker audience have already forgotten about Dorne outside of them being some fruity, sex-crazed olive people (with one cool guy who died by showboating).

I agree would be nice. But that is just because i personally find the intraregional politics facinating and would love to know how this leadership struggle plays out, which houses battle for leadership etc

But i don't really think its relevant. Its not a mystery or situation that needs to be resolved for the plot to work nor does it matter for any of the chracters the show is about. 

The show since the very first season has streamlined the heck out of any politics below the great house level. What was the political situation with the riverlands at the beggining of the war for the five kings? The show is silent on it. It is not until season 3 that we find out that Robb is King of the Riverlands and even then its not spelled out other than Edmure calling him his King.

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6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I agree would be nice. But that is just because i personally find the intraregional politics facinating and would love to know how this leadership struggle plays out, which houses battle for leadership etc

But i don't really think its relevant. Its not a mystery or situation that needs to be resolved for the plot to work nor does it matter for any of the chracters the show is about. 

The show since the very first season has streamlined the heck out of any politics below the great house level. What was the political situation with the riverlands at the beggining of the war for the five kings? The show is silent on it. 

And streamlining to an extent is fine, but when it actively causes plot holes that lead to massive situations being questionable (like where all the other sparrows were after the Septsplosian, what the KL Tyrells were doing after seeing the Septsplosian, why the commoners didn't revolt like crazy when Cersei has no allies, why the Lannister men weren't pissed that Cersei killed her Uncle Kevan, why Randyll Tarly wasn't informed by Olenna that the Reach is fighting for Dany, why Olenna even succeeded Mace in a supposed patriarchy, why anyone accepted Cersei succeeding Tommen in the first place, etc, etc), then it's too much.

You're right, streamlining's existed right from S1E1, but it's began to slip from 'making something adaptable' to 'writing as if the audience has no concept of abstract concept or object permanence, and sadly being vindicated in this cynical worldview'. After all, any sufficiently attached audience member that does have abstract concept permanence (and thus a frontal lobe) is too emotionally pot-committed to call a spade a spade and will come up with their own convoluted explanation for them, so why should D & D bother?

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