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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's a very good question. What do you think, when?

I think, yes, that's exactly when.

From the moment when Tommen betrayed her, by forbidding further practise of trial by combat, she started preparation for overthrowing him.

She had Quiburn, and his web of spies, and the Mountain, and probably many others ready to serve to her. Even while she was secluded in Red Keep, the Mountain was freely walking all over King's Landing, killing those who gossiped about Cersei. So even during her house arrest she had longer hands than you think.

Do you really think that her plan was limited only to burning Great Sept? And then WHAT???

If you think that my assumptions are wrong, then how do you think Cersei was going to deal with aftermath of her crimes, all of her crimes? How she was going to avoid Tommen's punnishment for killing Margaery? Or you think that she was 100% sure that after Margaery's death Tommen will commit suicide, she counted on this, and thus she wasn't afraid of any repercussions from him?

Tommen's suicide, or even his death, wasn't part of Cersei's plan. 

I think that Cersei created Queen's Blackguards before her trial, to deal with King Tommen, and others, after first part of her plan (burning Sept) will be executed. Those that were loyal to King Tomment were killed by the Mountain and Blackguards, even before the Sept exploded. Then Cersei ordered the Mountain to keep Tommen in his room until trial will be ended.

Where do you think was his personal guards, those that were supposed to escort him to his mother's trial? And how did the Mountain appeared in his chambers? What orders were given to him by Cersei?

If Tommen's death was part of her plan, she would've ordered Mountain to kill Tommen, for example by throwing him out of the window, and staging his death as suicide. But she haven't done so. On the contrary, she haven't thought that Tommen may commit suicide. Otherwise she would've put him under servants' watch 24/7.

His death was sudden to her, but she wasn't grieving much. First of all, because of his betrayal. But there's also other reason - he was an extra child. Joffrey was her favourite child, her firstborn, her Prince. Mircella was her little Princess, her sweet innocent angel. And Tomen was just an extra. {For everyone, not only Cersei. No one ever thought much about him. No one ever thought that one day he will become King. Before Joffrey died, he was always abusing Tommen. And no one cared enough about Tommen to stop this, even Cersei, she didn't even knew.} <- I'm basing this on Tommen's conversation with Margaery, when she sneaked at night in his bedroom, shortly prior their engagement was decided.

And I'm not pulling this out of thin air - there is basis, shown in GOT, for my logical assumptions.

Cersei's original plan was, after killing everyone in the Sept, to officially announce to people of 7K's that King Tommen is in mourning, because of death of his young wife Queen Margaery. He's stricken by grief, and can't rule, thus he appointed his mother Dowager Queen Cersei to act as his Regent in 7K, and sit on Iron Throne in his stead. Meanwhile she was going to keep Tommen isolated in his chambers in Red Keep, forever if needed. For this part of plan to work, she needed to replace Tommen's Kingsguards with her Blackguards beforehand. Replacement was done during trial. While everyone's attention was diverted by events happening in Baelor's Sept, Cersei executed her coup d'etat in Red Keep. Aside from Tommen's suicide, her plan to become ruler of 7K went flawlessly.

There's an evidence that proves that my assumptions about timeframe and plan of Cersei's coup d'etat are correct. She was crowned on the day of trial, on the same day Sept exploded. She already had her Blackguards by that point, furthermore they already gathered people to witness her coronation. Though in her original plan they were supposed to witness Cersei's becoming King's Regent. When Tommen forbade trial by combat, Cersei sent message to Jaime. Jaime immidiately went back to KL. Trial was in the morning, and by the time Jaime arrived to KL, it was already early evening. When Jaime and Bronn were approaching KL, ruins of Baelor's Sept were still burning. And Cersei's Blackguards and witnesses were already in Red Keep throne room watching her coronation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt1ltM-z2qs

This video proves that she was crowned ON THE SAME DAY when the Sept was blown and Tommen was dead. So if she started her preparation only AFTER Tommen's death, then she created Blackguards and gathered witnesses for her coronation in less than ONE DAY. <- impossible.

You may argue that even though Sept's ruins are still burning during scene of Jaime's return, it doesn't prove that Jaime arrived to KL on the day of explosion, it's possible that the ruins were still burning for several days after explosion. And thus Cersei was crowned not on the same day when Tommen died.

Then how can you explain, that if she wasn't prepared for consequences of her actions beforehand, how was she able to control people for those several days after Tommen's death prior her coronation? How was she able to prevent rebellion, if she hasn't prepared beforehand?

Your thoughts?

Your analysis and comments throughout this thread have been spot on and I couldn't agree more with all you've said. :agree:

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58 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Good idea on the spy in Yara's camp

If there is, I bet it was the one who Theon "accidentally" killed at the end of episode 7.

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5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

If there is, I bet it was the one who Theon "accidentally" killed at the end of episode 7.

Not sold on this since no real evidence, but agree. If there is one, its def that guy. He had sketchy douche written all over him.

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10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

...

 1. But she must have a greater plan... What was the plan for the Reach armies, for the dornish armies, for the Ironborn once they have escorted Olenna back ? Is there anything the Dothraki should do ? Maybe wait for an enemy army to move a large distance over land and then intercept the army ? 

Why is the Vale ignored ? Can't she meet with Sweetrobin ? With Littlefinger ? Why not take a Dragon and make a visit in the North...

2.How about a visit to Oldtown ? Or Rosby ? The Dragons seem to be fast enough for Jon Snow across the wall. ..It's almost as if Tyrion and Dany together suffer from depression.

1. I believe that the fleet carrying the Unsullied to CR also took Olenna back home, didn't it? The ironborn fleet was attacked on its way to Dorne. 

2. Concerning dragons and visits, see my reply to MinscS2 below. 
 
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MinscS2 said (in bold):
 
   10 hours ago,  SirArthur said: 

...

1. But she must have a greater plan. And that is what I mean when I say she doesn't care. ...

Why is the Vale ignored ? Can't she meet with Sweetrobin ? With Littlefinger ? Why not take a Dragon and make a visit in the North. Everybody important seems to be in Winterfell. Is she still on the "they killed my father they must all burn" trip ? How about blocking the Blackwater or any important bridge ? Or any action that brings her control over movement ? 


Her goal was Kings Landing. Her enemies where those loyal to Cersei.
The North and the Vale are enemies of the crown and far away from King's Landing. They weren't hostile to her, and before she lost her Westerosi allies she didn't really need either of them. However, she does summon Jon in episode 2, before she lost all of her other allies, so she does make an attempt to gain more allies in Westeros.

How about a visit to Oldtown ? Or Rosby ? The Dragons seem to be fast enough for Jon Snow across the wall. Yes I know she is not allowed to move. Tyrion forbids it. Well then Tyrion ... how about a visit to Sweetrobin ? Oh right. Maybe not. What's the longterm plan if the hand can't visit the boy because he fears to fly ? ...

But why would she visit those places? She didn't need more allies until episode 3, and she doesn't know if they will be loyal to her or not. Better to focus on the allies she had (until episode 3 that is) and the task at hand.
...

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

First of all, ravens people, ravens. You know, those black birds that are used to send messages? People in Westeros have been using them for a very long time. It doesn't take much effort to send out ravens. It is not a distraction of any significance. Dany, Varys, and Tyrion have some knowledge of this, but it seems to slip their minds at critical times. There is no need to use dragons. You can send messages to lots of locations with much smaller flying animals. 

And why would Daenerys do this? Well, she and her advisers claim she wants to be queen, right? A queen communicates with those whom she wishes to rule. She doesn't just talk to a few people with good armies and ignore everybody else. This is another example of my objection to "stupid pills." Or maybe an alternate explanation is available. All the drinking the Imp did during the first 6 seasons has begun to affect his brain. I suppose he could also have indulged in some binging and chugging with his liege and her other advisers during the off season--got them to catch up with him in the area of brain damage. Or one could just accept the most likely explanation for this and several other problems: Poor writing.

If you wish to be a monarch, you act like one. Stannis Baratheon, for all his faults, understood this. You write to your subjects. You declare yourself the true ruler. You say why this is the case. And you declare that all true men should swear fealty to you. This is common sense. It is also Westerosi history. It also didn't happen in Season 7. I find it massively implausible that Dany and her advisers would act the way they do during this past season. 

A similar problem is the way that the Queen of Thorns changed from one of the sharpest minds in Westoros to one of the dumbest broads in the world in the course of less than one season. 

I'll have more to say on these matters tomorrow. 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's a very good question. What do you think, when?

I think, yes, that's exactly when.

From the moment when Tommen betrayed her, by forbidding further practise of trial by combat, she started preparation for overthrowing him.

She had Quiburn, and his web of spies, and the Mountain, and probably many others ready to serve to her. Even while she was secluded in Red Keep, the Mountain was freely walking all over King's Landing, killing those who gossiped about Cersei. So even during her house arrest she had longer hands than you think.

Cersei's horror movie gang, which for convenience's sake I'll call the Monster Squad, were the trick? Qyburn, the creepy Mad Scientist no one but Cersei listened to, a bunch of waifs, and Ser Zombie organized factions of the Kingsguard and Gold Cloaks loyal to Cersei into the Black Guard? When the entirety of the nobility and the new power in town, the Faith Militant, actively opposed her. When everyone, including the crafty Olestra, thought she had no friends and her back was against the wall. No one sniffed out that she was actually Tom Cruise in Valkyrie, setting things up so she could seize power in an emergency.

Yes, the kids, Qyburn, and Zombie Mountain were technically free to wander around King's Landing. Cersei wasn't sealed in a box like that witch Varys kidnapped. But what do you expect her Monster Squad to do? Where did they even get money for bribes? How did they keep their recruitment secret? Who would listen to those weirdos?

Remember when the show made sense and King's Landing was a nest of vipers? Littlefinger had that scene where he pointed out spies loyal to himself, Varys, and Cersei to Ned in the garden. Or when Tyrion was locked up in his cell after the Battle of Blackwater Bay, ilwith Varys informing him that Bronn no longer had the Gold Cloaks, and they were loyal to Tywin and/or Cersei. Then Tyrion spent an entire season being told what to do by daddy because he had no moves. He didn't snap his fingers and build a Home Army loyal to himself, because dad and sis would've noticed. 

There's no Varys anymore who sees all (though there is a bald gentleman in robes wandering around Dragonstone, knowing about as much as Jon Snow; i.e. nothing), but someone would've noticed a Mad Scientist, homeless children, and Frankenstein's Monster bribing guardsmen.

Furthermore, the show didn't show us any of this. It had us believe, along with Kevan, Olestra, and the rest that she was finished except for the Monster Squad. The wildfire was kept secret, but people guessed and when it was revealed that her plan was to go partial-Aerys, it didn't feel like a cheat. Well, it did, but not because the wildfire was secret. For other reasons. 

Cersei secretly organizing the Black Guard under house arrest without the show giving us a hint is too much. That's cheating, plain and simple.  

I would have loved to see Zombie Mountain recruiting people, admittedly. 

Ser Goldenarmor, Head of the City Watch: You wanted to see me, Ser...um...is it still Clegane? No, wait, your name is Strong, or something...Who or what are you, and what do you want? 

Zombie Mountain: [looks at him silently]

Ser Goldenarmor: You drive a hard bargain, but I agree. I pledge my sword to your queen, in the event she commits the worst terror attack in hundreds of years. 

Zombie Mountain: [looks at him silently again, then turns and clomps away]

 

Maybe they would've spiced him up for that scene. Had him say "Grrr," or something. 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

Do you really think that her plan was limited only to burning Great Sept? And then WHAT???

Then she's queen, because she's played by Lena Headey. 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

Where do you think was his personal guards, those that were supposed to escort him to his mother's trial? And how did the Mountain appeared in his chambers? What orders were given to him by Cersei?

I honestly have no idea. For all I know Zombie Mountain ate them. 

It's just one of those things commonly called plotholes. 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Or maybe Euron has a spy amongst Yara's people. The most obvious option is often the right answer.

1. His spy informed him where are they intending to go, even before departure of Sands and Yara from Dragonstone. Thus, immidiately after receiving news about their whereabouts, and where and when are they going to sail, he went to that place and intercepted them. He didn't teleported there, he went there ahead of them, and set a trap on their way.

2. He has split his fleet and part of it sent to Casterly Rock. Also beforehand.

Dany, Tyrion, Yara, Sands and Olenna discussed their plans in E2, then this plans were reported to Euron. So he sent part of his fleet to deal with  Unsullied, and knowing where Yara and Theon will be, he chose to go after them and personally intercept Sands on their way to Dorne. Because he also planned to bring Sand Mom as a present to Cersei.

3. Euron burned Dany's fleet, so Unsullied were unable to go back the way they came. So instead they had to go on foot, and march thru entire Reach. And there's no food left, because Lannisters and Tarly's took everything with them. Thus after Dany cleared exit for them, and transported food and other supplies to them by land, they were able to march towards King's Landing.

The 'Euron spy' honeypot is surprisingly plausible, I'll grant you that, but no, Euron didn't split his fleet, or at least, he didn't completely split it, as the Silence is seen in both the scene where he demolishes Yara's fleet and later when he's trapping the unsullied.

Your third point... once again, plausible.

The thing is, both the first and the third points are evidence of you being smarter than D & D. Be frank with me and ask yourself: Do you honestly think D & D put as much thought into this as you, especially given your second point must be at least somewhat wrong given the appearance of the Silence?  Your honeypotting skills are admirable, but I assure you, one way or another, D & D weren't intending any of this.

Euron knew were Yara's fleet was, teleported to them, then teleported the Silence to CR because to D & D, if the audience knows something, everyone in the universe knows something too (hence why Tyrion never even contemplated grieving for Jaime who, having fallen into the Mariana Trench in armour, was most likely dead, and how even Hot Pie knows the Sept of Baelor is blown up and that Cersei did it). It's really just that simple.

Gone are the days of interesting cases of delayed knowledge acquisition (unless you're Arya Stark, because we need some reason for the Stark theme to play and her not killing Lena Headey's contract) between different parties; now everyone knows everything immediately, having kept up on the Weisseroff twitter, because D & D only know how to write cringey dialogue and action scenes (as well as how to beg the CG department for CG wight polar bears).

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

 When Jaime and Bronn were approaching KL, ruins of Baelor's Sept were still burning. And Cersei's Blackguards and witnesses were already in Red Keep throne room watching her coronation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt1ltM-z2qs

This video proves that she was crowned ON THE SAME DAY when the Sept was blown and Tommen was dead. So if she started her preparation only AFTER Tommen's death, then she created Blackguards and gathered witnesses for her coronation in less than ONE DAY. <- impossible.

You may argue that even though Sept's ruins are still burning during scene of Jaime's return, it doesn't prove that Jaime arrived to KL on the day of explosion, it's possible that the ruins were still burning for several days after explosion. And thus Cersei was crowned not on the same day when Tommen died.

Impossible, yes. That about sums up Cersei's rule. 

Wildfire could smolder for a long time for all I know. But however long it was, whoever was left in the city has no reason to be loyal to Cersei let alone make her queen. I don't think it would've been plausible for her to have that docile court if she had 10 years of freedom to set it up. 

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6 hours ago, lancerman said:

No Stannis' initial position absolutely matters. Nothing Stannis did by himself creates a war that large. 

Why are we even talking about a war "that large." I very deliberately said the rumor--fact to Stannis, because he trusted Ned Stark--started *a* war  It didn't start the War of the Five Kings, though it definitely gave it impetus.

Stannis didn't show up at Renly's camp with just himself, Davos, and the Red Woman. He had an navy and soldiers. That's war. Because Joffrey was a bastard. 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

There is a reason. Cersei is their Queen. So any communication with Daenerys is a treason. By sending any envoys to Dany they are acknowledging her as a Queen. So they can't do this, unless they are ready to rebell against Cersei.

Cersei is their Queen since like yesterday, only because she slaughtered hundreds of people, maybe had her son killed (does anyone really trust the official story on Tommen's death, whatever the story is), escaped justice (including a regicide charge), and profaned their religion. 

Hey, remember when the dynasty that had ruled for 300 years got too big for its britches by summoning Ned Stark and Bobby B., obviously intending to murder them? Then a bunch of lords committed treason. Even though it was against a guy who had an actual claim on the throne and ruled as the legitimate king for decades. 

Why on earth would a good number of them not be ready to rebel, if you can call saying someone who has no right to rule shouldn't be ruling actually constitutes rebellion. 

Remember when 1001 of his vassals (the Freys, the Boltons, Lord Karstark) rebelled against the King in the North because they got it in their heads that the guy who got acclaimed king five minutes ago maybe wasn't a real king. Even his mommy rebelled against him. 

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22 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

The 'Euron spy' honeypot is surprisingly plausible, I'll grant you that, but no, Euron didn't split his fleet, or at least, he didn't completely split it, as the Silence is seen in both the scene where he demolishes Yara's fleet and later when he's trapping the unsullied.

Your third point... once again, plausible.

The thing is, both the first and the third points are evidence of you being smarter than D & D. Be frank with me and ask yourself: Do you honestly think D & D put as much thought into this as you, especially given your second point must be at least somewhat wrong given the appearance of the Silence?  Your honeypotting skills are admirable, but I assure you, one way or another, D & D weren't intending any of this.

Euron knew were Yara's fleet was, teleported to them, then teleported the Silence to CR because to D & D, if the audience knows something, everyone in the universe knows something too (hence why Tyrion never even contemplated grieving for Jaime who, having fallen into the Mariana Trench in armour, was most likely dead, and how even Hot Pie knows the Sept of Baelor is blown up and that Cersei did it). It's really just that simple.

Gone are the days of interesting cases of delayed knowledge acquisition (unless you're Arya Stark, because we need some reason for the Stark theme to play and her not killing Lena Headey's contract) between different parties; now everyone knows everything immediately, having kept up on the Weisseroff twitter, because D & D only know how to write cringey dialogue and action scenes (as well as how to beg the CG department for CG wight polar bears).

Why are we calling all wild fan theories "honey pots?" That's a particular kind of trap, and is robbed of its unique meaning when applied to...what is it, exactly? Any time you come up with a secret plot that's better than what the writers had in mind?

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18 minutes ago, darmody said:

Why are we calling all wild fan theories "honey pots?" That's a particular kind of trap, and is robbed of its unique meaning when applied to...what is it, exactly? Any time you come up with a secret plot that's better than what the writers had in mind?

Yeah, it where you explain the utter shitness of the writing with an elaborate, often well-crafted and sensible theory that is in all likelihood not what D & D intended. It started with the theory that Talisa, being so weirdly liberated and different from Jeyne Westerling of the books, had to be some sort of Lannister honeypot, starting with the letter she was sending 'to her parents' being theorised to be Lannister spy mail. Unfortunately, the Red Wedding stabbed this theory in the belly, then later reveals of her letter's contents from D & D show that yes, Talisa was everything she was on the surface; a time-travelling sexy exotic field nurse who fell madly in love with Robb Stark.

The fans had come up with better writing than D & D, even as early as Season 3. The signs were always there that they'd go on to treat intelligence with contempt.

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36 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Yeah, it where you explain the utter shitness of the writing with an elaborate, often well-crafted and sensible theory that is in all likelihood not what D & D intended. It started with the theory that Talisa, being so weirdly liberated and different from Jeyne Westerling of the books, had to be some sort of Lannister honeypot, starting with the letter she was sending 'to her parents' being theorised to be Lannister spy mail. Unfortunately, the Red Wedding stabbed this theory in the belly, then later reveals of her letter's contents from D & D show that yes, Talisa was everything she was on the surface; a time-travelling sexy exotic field nurse who fell madly in love with Robb Stark.

The fans had come up with better writing than D & D, even as early as Season 3. The signs were always there that they'd go on to treat intelligence with contempt.

This is why I can't talk to most fans. They will invent (often good) explanations to things and act like it's so obvious. And when it's proven false, they act like it never happened or your complaints are tired and old. You can't have a discussion with such people. 

 

Like take arya v the waif. Remember all the crap they came up with explaining that? Now they are doing it again this season. Like, how can Cersei admit that the rock that kept their family feared and in power is gone and that she is alone with Jaime with no support, then get the entire reach and several lords to betray their leige and take her side? How? It makes no sense. The Tyrells alone should have been able to take KL with the forces under their control, gold and food. Daeny didn't even need Dorne, the Dothraki or anyone. Olena could have ended this between seasons. 

 

But of course, there is some super crafty logic that perfectly explains why this "Regent" without an heir is still in power. 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Impossible, yes. That about sums up Cersei's rule. 

Wildfire could smolder for a long time for all I know. But however long it was, whoever was left in the city has no reason to be loyal to Cersei let alone make her queen. I don't think it would've been plausible for her to have that docile court if she had 10 years of freedom to set it up. 

Not to mention the city folk are mostly useless for that. They are workers, merchants, whores and paupers. Short of outright rioting (which they should have when their beloved sparrow and queen died and the admitted incestuous cheating regent took over) they have little say. 

 

A more realistic approach would be to have the city riot (cause no food and the deaths) Cersei lock herself in the keep, an outside force comes to "save her", but really just executes her to qwell the unrest and install a new ruler. 

But for some reason no lord in all the 7 kingdoms (not even Euron) considered this. And those people who threw turds at her son and called her a whore are now okay with her?

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2 hours ago, MrJay said:

This is why I can't talk to most fans. They will invent (often good) explanations to things and act like it's so obvious. And when it's proven false, they act like it never happened or your complaints are tired and old. You can't have a discussion with such people. 

 

Like take arya v the waif. Remember all the crap they came up with explaining that? Now they are doing it again this season. Like, how can Cersei admit that the rock that kept their family feared and in power is gone and that she is alone with Jaime with no support, then get the entire reach and several lords to betray their leige and take her side? How? It makes no sense. The Tyrells alone should have been able to take KL with the forces under their control, gold and food. Daeny didn't even need Dorne, the Dothraki or anyone. Olena could have ended this between seasons. 

 

But of course, there is some super crafty logic that perfectly explains why this "Regent" without an heir is still in power. 

Yeah, the Arya-Waif shit was so egregious. People were like 'Arya wasn't the one to get stabbed' or 'obviously the Waif was Arya and Arya was the Waif', shit like that. But nope. It was exactly as it appeared on screen.

Arya survived several stabs in the gut, followed by falling into a disease-ridden canal, then, after implausibly surviving that thanks to... Lady Crane's abuser medic skills she goes on an epic chase scene mostly unhindered because it's not like you'd need time to heal that.

I'm annoyed that few people seem to see D & D's creative process for what it is: 'Wouldn't it be cool if...'

It's always been that, whenever they've done their own shit. Examples:

'Wouldn't it be cool if Tyrion was Dany's hand instead of that old fart Barristan Selmy? Let's kill him off and piss off Barry's actor! This won't completely neuter Tyrion's character down to being a mere sidekick!'

'Wouldn't it be cool if we fool the viewers into thinking Arya's dead even though no viewer with a brain would think we'd actually kill her off, then have her go on an epic street chase right after?'

'Wouldn't it be cool for Meryn Trant to also be a sadistic paedophile, because we're not sure our goldfish audience remembers he's an asshole?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if, instead of having a lame story like Arianne Martell fighting to be respected by her father, we instead have Jaime and Bronn on a road trip?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if instead of having the three primary Sand Snakes specialise in different disciplines, like fighting, politics, and appearing innocent while poisoning people, they instead are all fighters and say BADASS™ and EMPOWERED™ things? Feminists like that shit, don't they?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if Tyene said some seductive line about 'bad pussy'?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if we completely neutered Doran, had him killed by his sister-in-law to avenge his brother, and mocked him for being a 'weak man' because WOMEN ON TOP™?'

'Wouldn't it be cool to make the audience think Stannis loves his daughter, then have him burn her because of Ramsay's twenty good men?'

'Wouldn't it be cool to make Ramsay a total badass that everyone in the North loves so he can have a sexy girl sidekick instead of lame Bastard's Boys?'

'Wouldn't it be cool to make Ramsay's rape victim wife Theon redeems himself by saving be a main character so Theon's doing it 'cause he owed the Starks and not out of basic human decency?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if Arya did the Frey Pies so those stupid book readers stop complaining and we can have Arya be a BADASS™ again?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if Arya equalled Brienne in swordplay even though she's an assassin and shouldn't be trained for drawn-out, even combat?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if Theon won a fight because he had no dick?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if we kept reusing Lyanna Mormont the sassy little girl over and over and over again because the fans liked her first scene?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if we didn't have to give Margaery and the High Sparrow a plan by blowing them all the fuck up?'

'Wouldn't it be cool if we had a flaming wight polar bear and wrote it into every scene possible for four seasons until even the CG people are rolling their eyes?'

Et cetera, et cetera. I could go on for hours that D & D don't ever think about their writing outside of 'wouldn't it be cool', but for some reason, despite all the evidence, no-one seems to believe me. Their writing calibre is on par with a horny teenage boy's.

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3 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

The 'Euron spy' honeypot is surprisingly plausible, I'll grant you that, but no, Euron didn't split his fleet, or at least, he didn't completely split it, as the Silence is seen in both the scene where he demolishes Yara's fleet and later when he's trapping the unsullied.

Oh, I didn't realize that the big ship in the scene was supposed to be the Silence. So probably no split fleet, though it would make sense because of geography to sail directly from the Iron Islands to Casterly Rock.

The problem I have now is that the Unsullied and Yara's fleet didn't seem to sail together. The route from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock is past Sunspear.

Euron was first at King's Landing for his audience with Cersei. At roughly the same time the Unsullied, the Sand Snakes, Olenna and the rest of team Dany was at Dragonstone where they agreed on the plan. Euron caught up with Yara - which in itself is not impossible as he was in the Narrow Sea. He then dragged his prisoners back to KL - which is not far depending on where exactly he caught them. One or two weeks maybe?

For this scenario to work the Unsullied had to depart from Dragonstone a couple of days after Yara and her guests. It's not impossible imo, because the Sandsnakes had to hurry and get their troops ready and the Unsullied might have had to prepare. Odd for security reasons  but they had no reason to expect an assault at sea if they really didn't know that Euron and Cersei teamed up. Let's assume the Unsullied departed a week after Yara from Dragonstone. Euron took a detour that lasted two weeks. Which means he was a week or so behind the Unsullied, maybe more, maybe less, but most likely not months. He did not attack the Unsullied at sea which means he either did not want to risk having to fight them or he did not manage to catch up with them. Both reasons are plausible imo. 

Anyway, both fleets sailed more or less the same route. We only need to assume teleporting if the Unsullied had much of a lead. But that's not the case imo.

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32 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Oh, I didn't realize that the big ship in the scene was supposed to be the Silence. So probably no split fleet, though it would make sense because of geography to sail directly from the Iron Islands to Casterly Rock.

The problem I have now is that the Unsullied and Yara's fleet didn't seem to sail together. The route from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock is past Sunspear.

Euron was first at King's Landing for his audience with Cersei. At roughly the same time the Unsullied, the Sand Snakes, Olenna and the rest of team Dany was at Dragonstone where they agreed on the plan. Euron caught up with Yara - which in itself is not impossible as he was in the Narrow Sea. He then dragged his prisoners back to KL - which is not far depending on where exactly he caught them. One or two weeks maybe?

For this scenario to work the Unsullied had to depart from Dragonstone a couple of days after Yara and her guests. It's not impossible imo, because the Sandsnakes had to hurry and get their troops ready and the Unsullied might have had to prepare. Odd for security reasons  but they had no reason to expect an assault at sea if they really didn't know that Euron and Cersei teamed up. Let's assume the Unsullied departed a week after Yara from Dragonstone. Euron took a detour that lasted two weeks. Which means he was a week or so behind the Unsullied, maybe more, maybe less, but most likely not months. He did not attack the Unsullied at sea which means he either did not want to risk having to fight them or he did not manage to catch up with them. Both reasons are plausible imo. 

Anyway, both fleets sailed more or less the same route. We only need to assume teleporting if the Unsullied had much of a lead. But that's not the case imo.

You've got to also remember Euron went back to KL to take part in the big gay parade taking Ellaria and Tyene to Cersei, then they'd have to go back out, past Dragonstone, and around the continent to CR.

Even being generous with any delayed travelling by the Unsullied and what have you, it still stretches plausibility. And still fails to explain how in the living hell Olenna got to Highgarden when the Sand Snakes couldn't get to Dorne.What route did Olenna take? If it wasn't an extension of the Sand Sneks' sailing route, it would have been via land, which would have been through the Crownlands Cersei supposedly governs with an iron fist.

There's so much shit that at the very least, requires extensive honeypotting to correct. And it doesn't matter when we all know D & D didn't think about these things and actively hold people who do with contempt (see the showrunners' reaction to the S7E6 travel times criticism; essentially 'well I mean those people that care about stuff like plausibility are in the minority, because we still have a massive audience, uh, maybe if the majority of the audience thought about it, we'd have to too, but nah, fuck them, our idiot audience is still throwing us money').

The only difference between honeypotters and people like me is the former uses their intellect to make excuses for the show, the latter to poke holes in it. And D & D hate intellectuals all the same, they just don't say anything about the honeypotters while they sneer at people like me. Their real audience, the ones they like and the ones they write for, are the clapping seals that want to see more GURL POWAAAA or tits and dragons.

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21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Deus-Ex-Euron is more or less the only thing I can't rationalize this season;

- How did he manage to build the iron armada in less than half a year? A season is roughly 1 year long, they started in S6E5. By S7E1 the fleet is finished.

6 months is roughly 180 days, or 25 weeks. To build 1,000 ships in that time span they had to finish 40 ships each week. Iron Islands have 15,000 fighters, and total population is 1,5 millions.

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/the-population-of-the-seven-kingdoms/

Other sources say that Iron Islands population may be 100,000-700,000 people.

Let's take midle number - 350,000. Out of those people at least 100,000 worked at creating new Iron Fleet. 50,000 were preparing wood, making spare parts and nails, ropes and weaving sails. And other 50,000 were building ships.

50,000 people have built 1,000 ships in 25 weeks. Which means that in 25 weeks each group of 50 people needed to build only ONE SHIP.

180 days to build one ship made by 50 shipbuilders + another 50 people of various assistants and suppliers. Each crew of 100 people in span of 180 days have build their own ship. Thus out of 350,000 of Iron Island population every 3rd participated in creation of Iron Fleet, and every 7th was a shipbuilder.

Or let's take even smaller numbers, for example those 15,000 fighters from first Iron Fleet prior Euron's return. Out of them every third worked as shipbuilder, so in this case we have 5,000 people that have to build 1,000 ships in 25 weeks.

Let's take same number - 50 shipbuilders + another 50 people of various assistants and suppliers to build one ship. Thus they have 50 separate crews - 5,000 : (50+50).

Each crew will have to build 1,000 ships : 50 crews = 20 ships in span of 180 days.

9 days to build one ship made by 100 people. In 9 days 50 crews of 100 people will build 50 ships. And in 180 days they can build their quota of 1,000 ships.

Have you ever watched show Extreme Makeover: Home Edition? They build new house from scratch in span of 7 days.

And a house has a much more complex structure than a ship. Plumbing, connection to sewerage, connection to gas pipelines, electrical wiring, phone line, Internet and other cables, central heating system, air conditioning network, air vents, electrical outlets, light fixtures, sinks, toilets, showers, baths, garage, kitchen, various bedrooms each with individual design that will suit certain family member, different wallpapers or paint for each room, tiles, wooden floors, decorative molding for ceiling, windows with blinds or curtains, furniture and other elements of interior design.

Also they work with different materials like glass, concrete, wood, plywood, plastic, ceramic, and veriety of complex synthetic and chemical substances that need special treatment.

While ships are made with only four natural and simple materials - wood, iron nails, ropes, and sails.

According to Bible the Ark was build by crew of 4 people (Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth) in span of 120 years, mentioned in Genesis 6:3. It's dimentions were 450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m, which is bigger than basic ship of Iron Fleet. 

It's stated in page of Iron Fleet that their ships are smaller than the war dromonds of mainland, and according to Wikipedia dromons 'The overall length of these ships was probably about 32 meters'. So they are 4 times smaller than Ark. Thus it will take only one person to build Iron Fleet's basic ship in span of 120 years, or 43,800 days. But 350,000 of ironborn can build nearly 8 ships per day, or 1,438 ships in span of 180 days.

According to some sources there are 1,5 million of ironborn, so they can build 6,164 ships in span of six months.

Persian Fleet in 480 BC numbered 1207 ships.

So 1,000 ships in Euron's Iron Fleet build in span of six months or even faster, is totally realistic and reasonable number and time frame.

Quote

- How did he manage to find Yara's fleet in the middle of the ocean in the middle of the night? Even with a spy at Dragonstone this would be nigh impossible.

Ships use 'roads' in seas. They don't just randomly sail wherever. Also Yara's fleet sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne, they didn't waivered into the middle of Narrow Sea, they were sailing close to eastern coast of Westeros. Euron knew their destination, so he used the same sea road as them. Though he went there before them and left small boats to patrol the road, and they informed him when Yara's fleet was approaching.

Quote

- How did he know that the remainder of the Targaryen-fleet had sailed to Casterly Rock, and how did he manage to show up exactly after the battle had commenced?

He himself wasn't there. He sent there part of his fleet. Also NOT from those ships that he took to King's Landing. He sent a raven to Iron Islands, and they sent ships to Casterly Rock from Iron Islands. They hid close to shore behind sea cliffs, and after they saw that Unsullied left their ships and went on shore, they sailed towards those ships and burned them.

Quote

- Why is he so loyal to Cersei that he would do all the above things and continue to plot to backstab Team Dany when they're trying to save the entire realm? She has done nothing to earn neither his loyalty or his trust, quite the opposite in fact. If he ends up handing over the Golden Company to her, no questions asked I'm gonna be pissed. (Don't think this will happen actually.)

He isn't loyal, he just pretends that he supports her, to make her relax in his presence, to stop seeing him as a possible threat. And then he will backstab her. Of course he will do that only after Cersei will grant him some official position in 7K's government.

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- Why would he antagonize Jamie the way he does? I admit that it made me chuckle, but from a logical standpoint, antagonizing the brother of the woman you want to marry, and the general of the armed forces to the house you want to marry into seems ...counter-productive to say the least.

Why not? They need him, so until he will become unneeded to them they can't punish him, or get rid of him. And he will off them before he will become useless to them.

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19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

6 months is roughly 180 days, or 25 weeks. To build 1,000 ships in that time span they had to finish 40 ships each week. Iron Islands have 15,000 fighters, and total population is 1,5 millions.

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/the-population-of-the-seven-kingdoms/

Other sources say that Iron Islands population may be 100,000-700,000 people.

Let's take midle number - 350,000. Out of those people at least 100,000 worked at creating new Iron Fleet. 50,000 were preparing wood, making spare parts and nails, ropes and weaving sails. And other 50,000 were building ships.

50,000 people have built 1,000 ships in 25 weeks. Which means that in 25 weeks each group of 50 people needed to build only ONE SHIP.

180 days to build one ship made by 50 shipbuilders + another 50 people of various assistants and suppliers. Each crew of 100 people in span of 180 days have build their own ship. Thus out of 350,000 of Iron Island population every 3rd participated in creation of Iron Fleet, and every 7th was a shipbuilder.

Or let's take even smaller numbers, for example those 15,000 fighters from first Iron Fleet prior Euron's return. Out of them every third worked as shipbuilder, so in this case we have 5,000 people that have to build 1,000 ships in 25 weeks.

Let's take same number - 50 shipbuilders + another 50 people of various assistants and suppliers to build one ship. Thus they have 50 separate crews - 5,000 : (50+50).

Each crew will have to build 1,000 ships : 50 crews = 20 ships in span of 180 days.

9 days to build one ship made by 100 people. In 9 days 50 crews of 100 people will build 50 ships. And in 180 days they can build their quota of 1,000 ships.

Have you ever watched show Extreme Makeover: Home Edition? They build new house from scratch in span of 7 days.

And a house has a much more complex structure than a ship. Plumbing, connection to sewerage, connection to gas pipelines, electrical wiring, phone line, Internet and other cables, central heating system, air conditioning network, air vents, electrical outlets, light fixtures, sinks, toilets, showers, baths, garage, kitchen, various bedrooms each with individual design that will suit certain family member, different wallpapers or paint for each room, tiles, wooden floors, decorative molding for ceiling, windows with blinds or curtains, furniture and other elements of interior design.

Also they work with different materials like glass, concrete, wood, plywood, plastic, ceramic, and veriety of complex synthetic and chemical substances that need special treatment.

While ships are made with only four natural and simple materials - wood, iron nails, ropes, and sails.

According to Bible the Ark was build by crew of 4 people (Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth) in span of 120 years, mentioned in Genesis 6:3. It's dimentions were 450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m, which is bigger than basic ship of Iron Fleet. 

It's stated in page of Iron Fleet that their ships are smaller than the war dromonds of mainland, and according to Wikipedia dromons 'The overall length of these ships was probably about 32 meters'. So they are 4 times smaller than Ark. Thus it will take only one person to build Iron Fleet's basic ship in span of 120 years, or 43,800 days. But 350,000 of ironborn can build nearly 8 ships per day, or 1,438 ships in span of 180 days.

According to some sources there are 1,5 million of ironborn, so they can build 6,164 ships in span of six months.

Persian Fleet in 480 BC numbered 1207 ships.

So 1,000 ships in Euron's Iron Fleet build in span of six months or even faster, is totally realistic and reasonable number and time frame.

Ships use 'roads' in seas. They don't just randomly sail wherever. Also Yara's fleet sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne, they didn't waivered into the middle of Narrow Sea, they were sailing close to eastern coast of Westeros. Euron knew their destination, so he used the same sea road as them. Though he went there before them and left small boats to patrol the road, and they informed him when Yara's fleet was approaching.

He himself wasn't there. He sent there part of his fleet. Also NOT from those ships that he took to King's Landing. He sent a raven to Iron Islands, and they sent ships to Casterly Rock from Iron Islands. They hid close to shore behind sea cliffs, and after they saw that Unsullied left their ships and went on shore, they sailed towards those ships and burned them.

He isn't loyal, he just pretends that he supports her, to make her relax in his presence, to stop seeing him as a possible threat. And then he will backstab her. Of course he will do that only after Cersei will grant him some official position in 7K's government.

Why not? They need him, so until he will become unneeded to them they can't punish him, or get rid of him. And he will off them before he will become useless to them.

You're forgetting that the Iron Islands would also need enough trees to rebuild the fleet as well, but once again, this level of honeypotting just shows that D & D don't give a flying fuck about plausibility when they have emotionally pot-committed people with properly-functioning frontal lobes willing to make all the excuses for them.

And yes, Euron (or at least his ship) was in both locations; you can see the Silence plain as day in the Casterly Rock scene.

Edit: Don't use events of the Bible as evidence of something being plausible. There's talking donkeys, talking snakes, towers that lead to the realm of God, mortal-divine wrestling that ended in God grabbing Jacob by the bollocks, and other such laughable things.

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