"I never thought he'd hurt them"

[Nihlus]

Something I've always wondered: what does Jaime think about his father? There are several quotes to the effect that he thinks, or at least once thought, that Tywin is a decent guy and is continually shocked by his brutality. But why should any of it come as a surprise? Tywin intentionally spreads the image of himself as a child-killing sociopath, so why did Jaime ever think otherwise?

Quote

"Thank you?" Tyrion's voice was choked. "He gave her to his guards. A barracks full of guards. He made me . . . watch." Aye, and more than watch.

 

"I never knew he would do that. You must believe me."

Quote

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

 

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now.

Did Jaime ever genuinely think his father had any humanity, or was he simply trying to make himself believe that? He doesn't seem to have such thoughts by the time of the books anyway:

Quote

There were crows circling the seven towers and great dome of Baelor's Sept even now, Jaime suspected, their black wings beating against the night air as they searched for a way inside. Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well.

 

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

Something I've always wondered: what does Jaime think about his father? There are several quotes to the effect that he thinks, or at least once thought, that Tywin is a decent guy and is continually shocked by his brutality. But why should any of it come as a surprise? Tywin intentionally spreads the image of himself as a child-killing sociopath, so why did Jaime ever think otherwise?

Did Jaime ever genuinely think his father had any humanity, or was he simply trying to make himself believe that? He doesn't seem to have such thoughts by the time of the books anyway:

 

When both Tysha's horrible gang rape and Rhaenys and Aegon's just as horrible deaths occurred Jaime was still quite young... and very naive. Later he became brutally disenchanted and cynical. I believe him when he says he didn't think those things would happen. I think he really didn't have the measure of how horrible, despicable, cruel, and an utter arsehole Tywin really was. 

[DominusNovus]

Also, without sugarcoating it, Tysha was a commoner, while Elia and the kids were nobles of the highest possible ranking. Tywin is a feudal classist extraordinaire (remember Tywin acting outraged that Tyrion would think that her would have ordered Elia's rape and murder).  I think it would take Jaime quite some time to cope with just how brutal his father was willing to be to anyone (except maybe a Lannister) who was a problem, and it likely was a gradual realization.

[Nihlus]

19 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

Also, without sugarcoating it, Tysha was a commoner, while Elia and the kids were nobles of the highest possible ranking. Tywin is a feudal classist extraordinaire (remember Tywin acting outraged that Tyrion would think that her would have ordered Elia's rape and murder).  I think it would take Jaime quite some time to cope with just how brutal his father was willing to be to anyone (except maybe a Lannister) who was a problem, and it likely was a gradual realization.

But again, Tywin was killing (highborn) children at age 19 and intentionally cultivated a reputation for it.

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

Also, without sugarcoating it, Tysha was a commoner, while Elia and the kids were nobles of the highest possible ranking. Tywin is a feudal classist extraordinaire (remember Tywin acting outraged that Tyrion would think that her would have ordered Elia's rape and murder).  I think it would take Jaime quite some time to cope with just how brutal his father was willing to be to anyone (except maybe a Lannister) who was a problem, and it likely was a gradual realization.

Yeah, I agree. And seriously, regardless of Tywin's reputation, I think Jaime's reaction in both instances is perfectly normal. He's young, and what normal person would think their father would do/order things as horrifically vile as what was done to Tysha and the Targ kids? 

 

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Nihlus said:

But again, Tywin was killing (highborn) children at age 19 and intentionally cultivated a reputation for it.

A valid point, but there is knowing and seeing.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Nihlus said:

But again, Tywin was killing (highborn) children at age 19 and intentionally cultivated a reputation for it.

Yes. Tywin seems to like it when singers perform the song, "The Rains of Castamere," celebrating his brutal slaughter of the Reyne and Tarbeck families. Surely Jaime and Cersei had heard that song, since the Lannisters seem to encourage its wide play at large gatherings. It's possible that Jaime didn't think Tysha or Rhaenys or Aegon or Elia would be targeted the way Tywin had targeted the families in the west, but he can't really claim that he thought his father was a benevolent, forgiving, nonviolent guy.

[Darken]

Jamie is the most ‘family man’ out of all the Lannisters.  He builds a good relationship with Tyrion even though its not quite the most popular thing to do in CR. He renounces to his claim to CR dismay because Cersei wanted him to do so. He then breaks his vows to defend his father which earned him the title of Kinslayer. He ends up having a long term relationship with his own sister despite the fact that it could get him killed and after Tyrion’s trial he frees the imp 

Such blind loyalty towards them is often taken for granted. For example Tyrion was absolutely certain that Jamie would march to the Vale to defend his cause even though a trial by combat puts Jamie’s life on the line. Same thing, with Tywin who never even tried to defend his honour even though Jamie killed Aerys to defend him

Unfortunately the Lannisters are so self centered and divided that its almost impossible to help one without hindering the other.  By renouncing to his claim to CR he hurt the Lannister’s dynasty a great deal, same thing can be said when he released Tyrion from certain death. In my opinion the boy needs to finally become a man and start doing what is right rather then what his family asks from him. 
 

[Lost Melnibonean]

This is probably a moot point since the author did not seem to have this mind, but there would be good reason for a more seasoned Jaime to assume that Tywin would not hurt the wee Targlets. With the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys, the crown would normally be expected to pass to Aegon. If Tywin had seized Aegon and the Iron Throne, he might have been able to claim the regency and he could have asked Mace Tyrell or one of Mace's bannermen to be his Hand. 

[Darken]

40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is probably a moot point since the author did not seem to have this mind, but there would be good reason for a more seasoned Jaime to assume that Tywin would not hurt the wee Targlets. With the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys, the crown would normally be expected to pass to Aegon. If Tywin had seized Aegon and the Iron Throne, he might have been able to claim the regency and he could have asked Mace Tyrell or one of Mace's bannermen to be his Hand. 

I find Tywin’s and Aery’s interaction during Robert’s rebellion fascinating. After years of humiliation you would expect the lion to get his son out of KL and then march alongside Robert to get rid of the mad king. His 30k troops would have upset the balance of war and turned an unlucky victory into a homerun. Instead Tywin stayed neutral, holed in CR surrounded by his men. What benefits does such stance had? If Aerys won then he would remember Tywin’s inaction. If Robert won then the stag would certainly not keep Tywin in his good books unless the lion does something crazy to justify his position. So why did he acted that way?
Same thing can be said about the mad king. He goes into great extent to threaten the Martells with Elia but he shy away from doing the same with his old hand. Why is the case? Unlike the lions, the Martell has a vested interest to see Aerys win the war. Elia was Rhaegar’s queen and Aegon was his heir. Yet Aerys, ended up throwing the book to them while cuddling the Lannisters. The man who was terrified of blades kept Jamie at his side and when Tywin marched to KL he opened the gates. That doesn’t make sense right?

Which really makes me wonder, whether Tywin was working with Aerys after all.  Here is my take. Rhaegar’s army was 40k strong. Robert’s army was slightly smaller but far more experienced in battle. Once the two forces met in battle, its only fair to think that the two armies would suffer heavy casualties. The rebels were playing at home which means that the battle of the trident might not be the end of it all and that they would have probably find refuge inside one of the Riverlands castles. That means that Rhaegar’s army would have to siege and storm the castle + send men to close the Vale and the Northern borders just in case Ned/Jon try to escape.

Tywin’s army during KL sacking was around 12k strong but we all know that the Lannisters could raise more than that. If Tywin wanted he could march a 20k-30k army + 4k Frey men to battlefield. That could easily take Rhaegar by surprise, destroying him completely. The crown prince would be brought to KL in chains as a traitor (ie Harrenhal and all) alongside the Starks, the Arryns and the Baratheons. What a glorious day that would be especially since it would be followed by marriage between the restored Hand of the King’s daughter and Aerys new heir, Viserys Targeryan. That would explain why Aerys was so eager to allow Tywin in despite the lion stayed neutral throughout the entire war.

Of course that never happened. Rhaegar lost at the Trident. Robert was quick in turning enemies into friends + the Greyjoys joined in before Tywin was able to raise an army big enough to destroy him. That sealed the Targeryan fate right? Hmm not really.
Prior to the sacking of KL Lyanna was still alive and favourite to marry the new King. From Jamie, Tywin probably knew that Lyanna was not in KL and was probably surrounded by Rhaegar’s men. Not to forget that there was still Targeryans roaming around, 3 of which female (Danny, Rhaella and Rhaenys). The fact that Robert had a policy of forgiving his enemies + all his remaining enemies (bar Aerys) were women and children had complicated things.  Especially since killing them would equal to kinslaying. Rhaella was in fact Robert’s first cousin. Considering that the Baratheon has quite a history of marrying their defeated enemies daughters only to inherit their title as rightful heirs was well known.  That means that Cersei was possible 4th in the line in becoming queen. 

What could Tywin possibly do to scare the Targeryan off into exile + push the Targ loyalists guarding Lyanna to take their revenge on her? 
 

[jthurman14]

I think it reasonable to assume the younger Jaime (16 or 17 yo at sack of KL) would have been naïve enough to believe that Tywin would not hurt the remaining royal family. (Was there not a bit about Tywin assuring Jaime that he was going to 'secure' KL before the rebels could sack it??)

Very interesting Darken. The political maneuvering before and during the rebellion has many facets that I would like to see explored. Like Neds incredible ride to KL. Other than rushing there for Lyanna, which is a reasonable explanation, he may have been rushing to save Elia and the children. Being under no illusions of what Tywin (or Areys or Robert) was capable of.

 

[ChuckPunch]

I think the Lannister kids strongly display an emotional reserve we all have for our parents. 

Everyone deifies their parents to a degree. We have this weird mystical shroud around them and don't really take a hard look at them as real people until we are much older. I know I'm still having that realization about my parents over time. "Oh, yeah, I guess he was just a normal guy."

Cersei absolutely still sees her father as this strange magical figure of strength and power, while Jamie shows that he assumed his father was not as monstrously cruel as he really was- likely due to Jamie having only been treated relatively well by his father. 

Tyrion doesn't think much of Tywin, but we all know they aren't really related anyways *wink wink*

[Lady bonehead]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is probably a moot point since the author did not seem to have this mind, but there would be good reason for a more seasoned Jaime to assume that Tywin would not hurt the wee Targlets. With the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys, the crown would normally be expected to pass to Aegon. If Tywin had seized Aegon and the Iron Throne, he might have been able to claim the regency and he could have asked Mace Tyrell or one of Mace's bannermen to be his Hand. 

After killing Aerys, Jaime himself considered the option of declaring Aegon king, then rejected it because Aegon had Aerys's blood.  He may have thought even at the time that that was Tywin's plan also, since it would have been a way of putting the Lannisters directly in power rather than kowtowing to Robert. I do wonder if at any point we will get some version of the subsequent interaction between Jaime and Tywin (squirms).

[Lost Melnibonean]

24 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

After killing Aerys, Jaime himself considered the option of declaring Aegon king, then rejected it because Aegon had Aerys's blood.  He may have thought even at the time that that was Tywin's plan also, since it would have been a way of putting the Lannisters directly in power rather than kowtowing to Robert. I do wonder if at any point we will get some version of the subsequent interaction between Jaime and Tywin (squirms).

I would like to read about those days with Eddard Stark, Tywin Lannister, and Varys in King's Landing. Do you suppose rooms were prepared for them in the Red Keep? And then Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Barristan Selmy come down from the Trident, with Eddard urging Robert to send Jaime to the Wall.