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Tyrion1991

What was the point of the Dothraki Battle?

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22 hours ago, darmody said:

What end of the season were you watching? Cersei's plan is to buy the Golden Company, the point of which is to defeat Dany in battle. Jaime, though convinced she's nuts, is all "yes, dear" only until he sees the zombie. It's the zombie, not the battle that makes him run away. 

You have a point about Tyrion, because the Wight Hunt was his stupid idea. Without him intervening in favor of the army whose Lord he murdered with a crossbow, the season probably ends with Dany burning the Red Keep or simply besieging King's Landing. At least based on what information we're given.

I'm forced to guess Tyrion is acting out of mercy to his Lannister peeps, because we're not told. Not counting what he says privately to Cersei, which could be a lie. I don't know when or really if this change of heart came about, or if he had been of the same opinion on the subject back when he was barfing up wine in Pentos. Because the show doesn't tell me. 

Is this an example of Tyrion's development or his consistency? I dunno. But the idea that what he witnessed on the Field of Fire, Part II (this time it's personal) explains why he comes up with the plan to enlist Cersei in the fight against the dead is plausible. 

I think we have strong reasons to believe that Tyrion is betraying Dany by the end.

Unfortunately, I feel that this is a fairly strong possibility. First of all we still have (in the books) the “betrayal for love” prophecy hanging over Dany. I don’t believe Jon will be the betrayer there. Tyrion is a more shady character than he has been portrayed in the show. The ending of the series and show are going to be the same, so if Tyrion is going that way in one it will happen in the other.

Now let’s look at the 7th season. Tyrion has constantly tried to restrain Daenerys. As he outright admits to Cersei, he has been trying to keep their family safe. This is the exact inverse of the impression he has given Dany (and one which she is very right to doubt). The one occasion on which Daenerys actually uses her forces is something he is extremely unhappy with. He is afraid for Jaime and afraid for what Daenerys’ military superpower status actually means for the Lannisters. For me one of the the most suspicious scenes in the whole season is the scene in Dany’s council room where he proposes the Wight Hunt plan. Remember that at this point in time, Dany does not really believe in the Northern threat (or does not believe in it as a serious threat). This is confirmed by her many times afterwards. She is still focused on Cersei. Even Cersei knows that it would be absurd to expect Dany to offer peace at this juncture because she just won a major victory and is winning the war. Tyrion knows this quite well. He tells Jaime that Daenerys will win this war. But Dany does have very strong growing feelings for Jon. Tyrion realizes this. The only way to possibly stop Daenerys from using her military might to annihilate Cersei and to offer a truce seems to be to manipulate these feelings to his advantage (notice that right before this scene in the council, Varys and Tyrion are discussing what happened to the Tarlys, and that they have to figure out some way to make her listen to them). So he does so. He argues that Cersei believes that the army of the dead is just a myth. So Jon should go an fetch a wight to give her evidence of the contrary. The problem with this is that his own Queen shares Cersei’s viewpoint on this question at this juncture. However, Daenerys wants to give Jon a chance to prove the claim he has been making ever since he showed up on her doorstep. Even Jon knows this (he tells Tormund that he needs to convince both Queens).

Tyrion sees that 

1) Jon wants to go back to the North and face some dangerous threat in a war; and

2) That Daenerys does not want him going back into such a situation with inadequate military support. 

He decides to leverage this to get a truce with the Lannisters. He argues that Jon be given a chance to prove this to Cersei (suppressing that Daenerys doesn’t believe it either at this point–something that she doesn’t want to say outright either, however). Daenerys is initially ready to sign off on this. She probably thinks it will keep Jon on Dragonstone (which is clearly where she wants him) and perhaps settle this issue once and for all (he hasn’t volunteered to go himself at this juncture, but Tyrion probably knew that he would, knowing who he was). But once she effectively signs off on it (a militarily bizarre course for her Hand to suggest because it gives her enemies respite for a non-existent threat), it is difficult to reverse course when Jon also volunteers. And so the stupid Wight Hunt plan initiates (even Jon knows its stupid). Dany declares s truce and agrees to meeting Cersei instead of attacking.  

Then we have what happens in 7x07. We never see the end of the conversation between Tyrion and Cersei. Why would she agree? Tyrion knows her well. It is extremly doubtful that she would agree for some false reason which he wouldn’t see through at once. Cersei has never managed to pull the wool over Tyrion’s eyes so well. And yet he never suggests afterwards that she may be tricking Daenerys. Why not? Since when did Tyrion become so unsuspecting of her? That may be Jaime, but not Tyrion. More telling, however is Cersei telling Jaime that he was “the stupidest Lannister” for not realizing that she was not going to keep her word. Which suggests quite strongly that Tyrion realizes this already (otherwise why wouldn’t he be the stupidest?)

So I suspect that the traitor Tyrion theory has much merit. The show has gone out of its way to show Daenerys doing some things that would make Tyrion question his allegiance to her.

It would be sad, of course. Tyrion finally found someone who didn’t judge him for his stature and treated him with the respect he never found elsewhere. She clearly cares for him (she actually does care quite deeply for anyone in her inner circle–as the books make clear), hell even apologizes for making a joke that may seem unintentionally offensive to dwarves. And she has seen betrayal quite often.

On 9/15/2017 at 8:46 PM, snow is the man said:

well it showed her finally saying f*** it and rather then use tyrions plans and try to cause as little bloodshed as possible she fought a big battle and turned the tide of war. Without the tarly's backing the crown I don't see the rest of the reach backing cersei. Now that the dragons have been used and dany's forces crushed the lannister and tarly in battle everyone will see the futility of going against dany and thus making it almost impossible for cersei to gain anymore allies. And they had to show a dragon fighting the lannister army. But seriously she basically just made it clear that she was going to win and nobody can stop her

 I think the situation is far more complex than that, even though the show has not emphasized it in all cases. But they have indicated that. Daenerys’ no. 1 problem for now (before knowing about the Northern threat) is that Westerosi society is not willing to accept her as a Westerosi. This despite the fact that she has spent her whole lifetime thinking of Westeros as home and was born on Dragonstone. On this Cersei’s propaganda has been excellent. 

Dany currently has an army of Dothraki, whom all of Westeros (and the world) sees as vicious uncivilized barbarians with no appreciation of anything of any value and whose traditions are abhorrent. She has an army of former Eunuch slaves, EACH ONE of whom is trained by killing a newborn baby plucked from the mother. So vicious barbarians and baby murderers. And she was carried to Westeros by a faction of the Iron Born who have the worst reputation in Westeros as pirates etc. That is what she has. And three dragons. The men she surrounds herself with have little more to improve her image with. Tyrion, a kinslayer (one of the most heinous crimes in Westeros is to kill your own parent) and (popularly) a kingslayer. Jorah Mormont, a former slaver exile who had been condemned to death by the famously honorable Eddard Stark. Theon Greyjoy who is hardly respected by anyone in Westeros and betrayed the people who raised him. Not a single person of honor seems to follow her or align with her. This problem was not faced by the Mad King. He still had people like Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy serving him. Dany did have Barristan for a while, but even he is already dead and cannot speak for her. Even the Citadel Maesters (normally a rather skeptical bunch) seem to have the worst expectations of the Dragon Queen. On top of this she has to deal with the fact that the country’s most recent memory of Targaryen rule is not the centuries before her, but that of her own father, the Mad King (on the basis of whose name she is trying to claim the throne).   

Cersei has used these facts to vilify her quite well. It explains some of the Tarly reluctance to bend the knee to her as well. Tyrion’s initial idea was legitimate (i.e. to use Dornish and Tyrell forces, rather than foreign forces). Westerosi nationalism will not be offended by Westerosi forces and banners. Destroying central cultural landmarks like the Red Keep (which has been the seat of government for centuries) will only solidify this narrative further. The foreign conqueror who destroyed cultural symbols etc. will only unite the country behind Cersei further. In such circumstances, she could try to take the city, but will not be able to hold it for long anyhow. Once the people hate her and her foreign armies, they’ll give her guerrilla insurgencies far worse than the Harpy she faced in Meereen. And she’ll face this not just in one city but all over the continent. Against this, dragons are useless. Her Dothraki and unsullied won’t be safe unless they are camped outside the cities (and who’ll run the cities then?) and so on. 

So Cersei’s strategy of cutting out her Westerosi allies first and foremost was actually quite clever. She has managed to exclude Dany from the narrative as being another Westerosi power player and turned her into a foreigner who will destroy the Westerosi way of life and hence created much nationalist sentiment against her. In modern terms, Westerosi people are seeing her as someone who is trying to create regime change on the basis of her superior but completely foreign forces. As we know from modern examples, once this sort of perception sets in, people will often even unite behind terrible leaders to fend off the foreign threat first. Seeing this, Cersei’s demand that Jon stay away from the fight makes excellent sense as well, since if the North allies with her, Daenerys can get some much needed Westerosi credibility.

When it comes to these complications, I’m not sure Dany understands the situation too well. Back in Meereen when Tyrion first met her, her perception was quite simple. She thought that having large armies and dragons would win her the throne. Tyrion pointed out the error of the view to her even then.

It is worth noting that the Targaryens were only able to conquer six of the seven kingdoms (the North capitulated without a fight to avoid any casualties) and were never able to conquer Dorne even with Aegon the conqueror’s large dragons because the Dornish used the same guerrilla tactics and abandoned castles etc. whenever dragon attack seemed imminent. They tried a direct land invasion under King Daeron 1 Targaryen. Daeron lost 10,000 men conquering Dorne and then lost 50,000 more trying to hold it after massive uprisings that eventually threw Targaryens out of Dorne. Dorne actually has lesser numbers than the other kingdoms. In terms of numbers the Reach may have the most. In terms of area the North is as big as the other six combined. Dorne was only finally brought into the Targaryen fold via marriage. This was probably what Tywin was talking to Oberyn about in an early season 4 episode about how Dorne managed to avoid the Targaryen fold for 200 years. 

I’m not sure Dany has full appreciation of these complexities as Tyrion undoubtedly should (his book version knows it all beyond a doubt as he is quite erudite in terms of history). 

The show has also done a bad job of showing what Dany actually holds for now. She doesn’t hold the Crownlands (Cersei does), the Iron Islands (Euron does), the North (Jon does), the Vale (Littlefinger allied to the North did), the Westerlands (even though one castle, Casterly Rock was taken). Does she hold the Riverlands or the Stormlands? There is no clear sign. And she keeps saying that she lost Dorne and Highgarden. Yet she keeps saying that Cersei will retake “half the country” if she goes North. But which “half” of the country does she actually hold? The North is half the country in terms of area and she doesn’t hold it yet. Has she regained control of the Reach? Samwell was at the Citadel which is in the main city of the Reach an the Maesters certainly didn’t speak like Dany was Queen there. In practical terms it still seems like Cersei holds the entire country other than the North &Vale and the island of Dragonstone. 

So under these conditions, I do not feel Tyrion’s plans have been bad. Dany’s greatest advantage is in open field battles (like the loot train) where her forces and dragons can be used with full effectiveness while causing little resentment among the population at large.

Maybe the alliance with the North and possible marriage with Jon with help her with some of these problems.

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4 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

I think we have strong reasons to believe that Tyrion is betraying Dany by the end.

Unfortunately, I feel that this is a fairly strong possibility. First of all we still have (in the books) the “betrayal for love” prophecy hanging over Dany. I don’t believe Jon will be the betrayer there. Tyrion is a more shady character than he has been portrayed in the show. The ending of the series and show are going to be the same, so if Tyrion is going that way in one it will happen in the other.

Now let’s look at the 7th season. Tyrion has constantly tried to restrain Daenerys. As he outright admits to Cersei, he has been trying to keep their family safe. This is the exact inverse of the impression he has given Dany (and one which she is very right to doubt). The one occasion on which Daenerys actually uses her forces is something he is extremely unhappy with. He is afraid for Jaime and afraid for what Daenerys’ military superpower status actually means for the Lannisters. For me one of the the most suspicious scenes in the whole season is the scene in Dany’s council room where he proposes the Wight Hunt plan. Remember that at this point in time, Dany does not really believe in the Northern threat (or does not believe in it as a serious threat). This is confirmed by her many times afterwards. She is still focused on Cersei. Even Cersei knows that it would be absurd to expect Dany to offer peace at this juncture because she just won a major victory and is winning the war. Tyrion knows this quite well. He tells Jaime that Daenerys will win this war. But Dany does have very strong growing feelings for Jon. Tyrion realizes this. The only way to possibly stop Daenerys from using her military might to annihilate Cersei and to offer a truce seems to be to manipulate these feelings to his advantage (notice that right before this scene in the council, Varys and Tyrion are discussing what happened to the Tarlys, and that they have to figure out some way to make her listen to them). So he does so. He argues that Cersei believes that the army of the dead is just a myth. So Jon should go an fetch a wight to give her evidence of the contrary. The problem with this is that his own Queen shares Cersei’s viewpoint on this question at this juncture. However, Daenerys wants to give Jon a chance to prove the claim he has been making ever since he showed up on her doorstep. Even Jon knows this (he tells Tormund that he needs to convince both Queens).

Tyrion sees that 

1) Jon wants to go back to the North and face some dangerous threat in a war; and

2) That Daenerys does not want him going back into such a situation with inadequate military support. 

He decides to leverage this to get a truce with the Lannisters. He argues that Jon be given a chance to prove this to Cersei (suppressing that Daenerys doesn’t believe it either at this point–something that she doesn’t want to say outright either, however). Daenerys is initially ready to sign off on this. She probably thinks it will keep Jon on Dragonstone (which is clearly where she wants him) and perhaps settle this issue once and for all (he hasn’t volunteered to go himself at this juncture, but Tyrion probably knew that he would, knowing who he was). But once she effectively signs off on it (a militarily bizarre course for her Hand to suggest because it gives her enemies respite for a non-existent threat), it is difficult to reverse course when Jon also volunteers. And so the stupid Wight Hunt plan initiates (even Jon knows its stupid). Dany declares s truce and agrees to meeting Cersei instead of attacking.  

Then we have what happens in 7x07. We never see the end of the conversation between Tyrion and Cersei. Why would she agree? Tyrion knows her well. It is extremly doubtful that she would agree for some false reason which he wouldn’t see through at once. Cersei has never managed to pull the wool over Tyrion’s eyes so well. And yet he never suggests afterwards that she may be tricking Daenerys. Why not? Since when did Tyrion become so unsuspecting of her? That may be Jaime, but not Tyrion. More telling, however is Cersei telling Jaime that he was “the stupidest Lannister” for not realizing that she was not going to keep her word. Which suggests quite strongly that Tyrion realizes this already (otherwise why wouldn’t he be the stupidest?)

So I suspect that the traitor Tyrion theory has much merit. The show has gone out of its way to show Daenerys doing some things that would make Tyrion question his allegiance to her.

It would be sad, of course. Tyrion finally found someone who didn’t judge him for his stature and treated him with the respect he never found elsewhere. She clearly cares for him (she actually does care quite deeply for anyone in her inner circle–as the books make clear), hell even apologizes for making a joke that may seem unintentionally offensive to dwarves. And she has seen betrayal quite often.

 I think the situation is far more complex than that, even though the show has not emphasized it in all cases. But they have indicated that. Daenerys’ no. 1 problem for now (before knowing about the Northern threat) is that Westerosi society is not willing to accept her as a Westerosi. This despite the fact that she has spent her whole lifetime thinking of Westeros as home and was born on Dragonstone. On this Cersei’s propaganda has been excellent. 

Dany currently has an army of Dothraki, whom all of Westeros (and the world) sees as vicious uncivilized barbarians with no appreciation of anything of any value and whose traditions are abhorrent. She has an army of former Eunuch slaves, EACH ONE of whom is trained by killing a newborn baby plucked from the mother. So vicious barbarians and baby murderers. And she was carried to Westeros by a faction of the Iron Born who have the worst reputation in Westeros as pirates etc. That is what she has. And three dragons. The men she surrounds herself with have little more to improve her image with. Tyrion, a kinslayer (one of the most heinous crimes in Westeros is to kill your own parent) and (popularly) a kingslayer. Jorah Mormont, a former slaver exile who had been condemned to death by the famously honorable Eddard Stark. Theon Greyjoy who is hardly respected by anyone in Westeros and betrayed the people who raised him. Not a single person of honor seems to follow her or align with her. This problem was not faced by the Mad King. He still had people like Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy serving him. Dany did have Barristan for a while, but even he is already dead and cannot speak for her. Even the Citadel Maesters (normally a rather skeptical bunch) seem to have the worst expectations of the Dragon Queen. On top of this she has to deal with the fact that the country’s most recent memory of Targaryen rule is not the centuries before her, but that of her own father, the Mad King (on the basis of whose name she is trying to claim the throne).   

Cersei has used these facts to vilify her quite well. It explains some of the Tarly reluctance to bend the knee to her as well. Tyrion’s initial idea was legitimate (i.e. to use Dornish and Tyrell forces, rather than foreign forces). Westerosi nationalism will not be offended by Westerosi forces and banners. Destroying central cultural landmarks like the Red Keep (which has been the seat of government for centuries) will only solidify this narrative further. The foreign conqueror who destroyed cultural symbols etc. will only unite the country behind Cersei further. In such circumstances, she could try to take the city, but will not be able to hold it for long anyhow. Once the people hate her and her foreign armies, they’ll give her guerrilla insurgencies far worse than the Harpy she faced in Meereen. And she’ll face this not just in one city but all over the continent. Against this, dragons are useless. Her Dothraki and unsullied won’t be safe unless they are camped outside the cities (and who’ll run the cities then?) and so on. 

So Cersei’s strategy of cutting out her Westerosi allies first and foremost was actually quite clever. She has managed to exclude Dany from the narrative as being another Westerosi power player and turned her into a foreigner who will destroy the Westerosi way of life and hence created much nationalist sentiment against her. In modern terms, Westerosi people are seeing her as someone who is trying to create regime change on the basis of her superior but completely foreign forces. As we know from modern examples, once this sort of perception sets in, people will often even unite behind terrible leaders to fend off the foreign threat first. Seeing this, Cersei’s demand that Jon stay away from the fight makes excellent sense as well, since if the North allies with her, Daenerys can get some much needed Westerosi credibility.

When it comes to these complications, I’m not sure Dany understands the situation too well. Back in Meereen when Tyrion first met her, her perception was quite simple. She thought that having large armies and dragons would win her the throne. Tyrion pointed out the error of the view to her even then.

It is worth noting that the Targaryens were only able to conquer six of the seven kingdoms (the North capitulated without a fight to avoid any casualties) and were never able to conquer Dorne even with Aegon the conqueror’s large dragons because the Dornish used the same guerrilla tactics and abandoned castles etc. whenever dragon attack seemed imminent. They tried a direct land invasion under King Daeron 1 Targaryen. Daeron lost 10,000 men conquering Dorne and then lost 50,000 more trying to hold it after massive uprisings that eventually threw Targaryens out of Dorne. Dorne actually has lesser numbers than the other kingdoms. In terms of numbers the Reach may have the most. In terms of area the North is as big as the other six combined. Dorne was only finally brought into the Targaryen fold via marriage. This was probably what Tywin was talking to Oberyn about in an early season 4 episode about how Dorne managed to avoid the Targaryen fold for 200 years. 

I’m not sure Dany has full appreciation of these complexities as Tyrion undoubtedly should (his book version knows it all beyond a doubt as he is quite erudite in terms of history). 

The show has also done a bad job of showing what Dany actually holds for now. She doesn’t hold the Crownlands (Cersei does), the Iron Islands (Euron does), the North (Jon does), the Vale (Littlefinger allied to the North did), the Westerlands (even though one castle, Casterly Rock was taken). Does she hold the Riverlands or the Stormlands? There is no clear sign. And she keeps saying that she lost Dorne and Highgarden. Yet she keeps saying that Cersei will retake “half the country” if she goes North. But which “half” of the country does she actually hold? The North is half the country in terms of area and she doesn’t hold it yet. Has she regained control of the Reach? Samwell was at the Citadel which is in the main city of the Reach an the Maesters certainly didn’t speak like Dany was Queen there. In practical terms it still seems like Cersei holds the entire country other than the North &Vale and the island of Dragonstone. 

So under these conditions, I do not feel Tyrion’s plans have been bad. Dany’s greatest advantage is in open field battles (like the loot train) where her forces and dragons can be used with full effectiveness while causing little resentment among the population at large.

Maybe the alliance with the North and possible marriage with Jon with help her with some of these problems.

Good analysis. I still don't think Tyrion cut any side deal with cersei that they did not show us, but on the whole i agree with your analysis amd the subtle Tyrion betrayel and why it would be a very tragic thing. 

The play that Arya saw last year in Bravos i think is telling in terms of how most of the population view Tyrion. 

I think the alliance with Jon will solve her problems in the end. She will go from being the foreign conqueror to the Queen who saved the nation and is married to Rhaegar's son a true born Westerosi. 

Stannis will turn out to be correct although like being the chosen one, it will be true of Daenerys and not him.

"I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne"

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On 9/17/2017 at 8:30 PM, jcmontea said:

Good analysis. I still don't think Tyrion cut any side deal with cersei that they did not show us, but on the whole i agree with your analysis amd the subtle Tyrion betrayel and why it would be a very tragic thing. 

The play that Arya saw last year in Bravos i think is telling in terms of how most of the population view Tyrion. 

I think the alliance with Jon will solve her problems in the end. She will go from being the foreign conqueror to the Queen who saved the nation and is married to Rhaegar's son a true born Westerosi. 

Stannis will turn out to be correct although like being the chosen one, it will be true of Daenerys and not him.

"I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne"

I hope the alliance with Jon can help her with this too. From what I can make out, currently she has a big army but not much territory. Jon just handed her half the realm (area-wise at least, and if the Vale is included then some very fertile area untouched by war as well). As Robert's rebellion shows, Stark and Arryn banners moving to remove the current occupant of the Iron Throne will not cause the sort of nationalistic resentment that plagues her now. I had forgotten Stannis' line. but yes, it may seem to fit her quite well. And once Jon's taint of bastardy is removed, a marriage with him will make her acceptance in Westeros more likely. No one can call him a foreigner.

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:55 PM, MrJay said:

I get it. Fans have gotten very good at rationalizing everything they see. However, The woman literally made a bee line along the road and burned gods knows how many supply wagons.

Maybe she didn't burn them all, but by the looks of it she sure was trying. Which is still dumb.

Yeah, it's a head banger, no doubt about it.

Our beautiful and gracious queen is concerned about her subjects and her army. She is afraid they will not have enough food. 

Two or three days later--

Our beautiful and gracious queen is incinerating the grain that her people will need to get them through the winter. 

As to the main point, the reason for the battle. One possibility is that it provides good material for satire, something that the people from Saturday Night Live or Monty Python could put to use. One of my "favorite lines of the season" is spoken by Jaime Lannister.

"Take cover!"

This is a wonderful set up: 

Soldier 1: Take cover? Take bloody cover??!! Why, the man's a positive master of military tactics, isn't he? Look, here comes the flying pixy on her fire breathing monster, and general genius tells us to take cover. 

Soldier 2: Quick lads, everyone under these wooden wagons!

Soldier 3: No, no, we should all hide in the tall grass!

Soldier 1: Take bloody cover? We're being led by flipping morons. Show me some cover, oh general genius. I'll tell you where to take it, and what you can do with it when you get there!

Soldier 2: I say, these savage fellows don't seem such bad chaps. Time to bend the knee, eh?

Soldier 3: Quite so, I do suppose they know what "I yield" means, don't they? 

 

Edited by Jabul
Edited for spelling

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Do some of you pick apart every detail on the rest of the shows you watch as well? One has to understand that an hour long show is not going to be able to include everything that a Seven novels, let alone one, would be able to do. The point of Danerys taking flight and bringing along the Dothraki was to show the Lannisters that no mIatter what, they can't win. She was tired of losing allies, tired of taking casualties, and simply wanted to show a sample of her true force. She used her WMD against her enemy using medieval warfare, and accomplished her goal, letting it be known that she can wipe out an entire army, it's leading commanders, and if she wanted to, the individual/s they answer to. And she only brought along one, knowing she has or had two others that she knows she could use at any time. The one with the actual military expertise realized this and said so. 

 

I agree with some lacks of logic and other understandings the showrunners are accustomed to, which is why I don't argue much of it. But some of these critiques are really......eh, some things are better left unsaid.

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Do some of you pick apart every detail on the rest of the shows you watch as well?

Yes and no. 

There are always issues when adapting works. I think most of us get that. And yes some nitpicks are just that, gripes that are just poking at the inherent flaws apparent in any adaptation. 

However, the reason you see so many with this show (and this season especially) is because we have seen how good it can be. There were always flaws with the shows logic, but these were minimal and and the rest of the show made up for them easily. 

Think of it like going from gourmet meals prepared by a renowned chef to eating at Applebee's. I like Applebee's. Nothing wrong with it. But I also didn't get get used to top quality meals. Someone used to such meals is gonna have a lot to say about what some chain restaurant serves. 

Before it was the odd steak cooked well done vs medium. We overlooked that cause the rest of the meal was good. Now our orders are getting messed up and we are sitting there for nearly a half hour waiting for a refill. So of course people are gonna start finding all the things wrong now. They are unhappy. Unhappy people do that. 

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the show is getting people used to top quality content. If they had never done that, followed Martin's writing as best as they could, then only the people who care about flashy lights and cool one liners would be watching, and they would be happy with all that. 

Unfortunately, a lot of folks who watch for the tight plots and foreshadowing also watch this show. So take all that away and start giving them Michael Bay levels of entertainment and of course they are gonna get upset. 

When I go watch transformers (when I used to watch it) , I don't nitpick. I know what it's gonna be. Just loosely strung together cliches and the odd sexy girl bending over in between robot fights. Then splash in some slow motion and Walbergs signature fast talk and you got a film. 

But if transformers reeled me in with espionage, backstory and deep flawed characters, I'd be pretty pissed to see everyone become generic action heros and slow mo explosion dodgers. 

Maybe it's just me. I could be wrong. I just think that all of these gripes come from a place of feeling led on. So now no quarter is given and every flaw will be pointed out mercilessly. 

Edited by MrJay

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6 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

i imagine men in the medieval times could be alot more brutal then orcs ever were.

other then that i agree, somehwat.

still using dragons was like using the first nuclear weapon, once it get used people realize they cant fuck with that. So it forced cersei to change her plans.

Her plans didn't change though. She is just buying more soldiers. 

The only thing that changes her plans is that meeting  when decides to backstab Jon and Co. Jaime tried to tell her they would be stomped even without dragons and she specifically points out that it doesn't matter. 

So the battle really had no purpose except to be a cool battle. Which is fine I guess. Not every battle in real life results in a decisive change. 

Edited by MrJay

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On 10/14/2017 at 8:35 AM, MrJay said:

Yes and no. 

There are always issues when adapting works. I think most of us get that. And yes some nitpicks are just that, gripes that are just poking at the inherent flaws apparent in any adaptation. 

However, the reason you see so many with this show (and this season especially) is because we have seen how good it can be. There were always flaws with the shows logic, but these were minimal and and the rest of the show made up for them easily. 

...

Unfortunately, a lot of folks who watch for the tight plots and foreshadowing also watch this show. So take all that away and start giving them Michael Bay levels of entertainment and of course they are gonna get upset. 

... 

Maybe it's just me. I could be wrong. I just think that all of these gripes come from a place of feeling led on. So now no quarter is given and every flaw will be pointed out mercilessly. 

I agree with much of the above, but I'd put it in a somewhat different context. I am a long term fantasy and science fiction fan. In another thread I mentioned a rule promulgated by Ursula K. Le Guin, whom I regard as one of the best writers ever to work in these fields. The rule says that you get to create your own universe, but then you have to follow the rules of this universe. By the very reasonable standards of this rule, the show runners of GoT have failed badly. If dragons are born in season 1, and then dragons grow big and strong in the following seasons, then that is to be expected. If, however, the members of Dany's team are smart, even brilliant, in the early seasons, then they turn into dunces in Season 7, that is unacceptable. 

There are multiple problems with the battle we are considering in this thread. One (and I do mean only one) is the fact that it occurs so late in the game. Jaime, Bron, Lord Randyll, and a considerable force of men move most of the way across a continent, and none of their enemies realize that this is happening. The bogus "surprise" nature of the attack on Highgarden is not believable. After the castle falls, the wagons loaded with gold trundle slowly all the way back (or essentially all the way back) to King's Landing before the dunces on Dragonstone rouse themselves to action. 

Nah, this is baloney, and my objection is not a matter of nit picking. If the story telling in GoT had remained adequate, then the battle of the wagons would have occurred much earlier, and it would have been decisive. 

Edited by Jabul

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On 9/15/2017 at 0:18 PM, jcmontea said:

The battle serves to convince Cersei and Jaime that they have no chance of defeating Daenerys in battle and convince Tyrion that if he doesn't do something Dany will likely destroy all vestigages of the Lannisters. 

Those morivations end up driving the end of the season. 

This. She was losing. Lannisters started to think they would easily win this. This battle ultimately forced Jamie to switch sides to the winning team as well as others so it serves a significant purpose more than the show has displayed.

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First, it was cool. Hearing the pounding and then them emerge...omg, awesome. As a Dany fan then watching them cut through Lannister/Tarly men was just great. Add in that you had the dragons in battle acting as admittedly a big part, it was still cool to see they could hold their own. And when they show up at the Red Keep and convince Jaime that they might be unable to deal with a fight, that was shown in the original battle.

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Posted (edited)

1. That's a good point. Danerys needs those supplies as much as Cersei. She has an army to feed and winter is coming. No more harvests, the food animals have all been slaughtered and dressed for salted or dried meat for the winter. So she has Drogon burn the wagons with the supplies in them. Well, I guess they could eat fish. No, Euron has command of the sea. Too bad.

2. As a retired professional Soldier and a student of military history, I love GoT as an example of its genre but its portrayal of medieval warfare truly sucks. Charles the Bold of Burgundy, like Alexander the Great, tried to marry bows to his pikes and failed. He built a combined arms army with men-at-arms and he failed, the Swiss swept him off the battlefield. The Successors never tried out Alexander's experiment in battle. But the whole battle was just impossible. The Dothraki attack. They have limited numbers of bows and they stand in the saddle to shoot and shoot accurately. BS. As nomadic warriors, most of them should have had bows, or at least darts and javelins. They would ride in a circle within effective range of their weapons, using the numbers of darts, javelins and arrows to disrupt their enemies' formation and morale, sometimes feigning retreat to pull the enemy from their ranks so they could be isolated and ridden down, before the ARMORED portion of the horde armed with lances attacked in close formation and rode down their enemies. Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians, Sassanid Persians, Alani, Saracens, Mamelukes, Seljuk Turks, Tartars, Mongols, Manchus, Magyars, Avars, even Sioux and Cheyenne, it doesn't matter, their weapons, armor and tactics were very similar. Second, what was Jaimie and Tarly thinking? Any convoy attacked by cavalry, heavy, medium or light, pulled their wagons into circles or squares and the accompanying troops fought from BEHIND their bulk or between the wagons, using them to stop or break up the charge. If not, they pulled themselves into deep formations at least eight ranks deep, all armed with spears, even the front ranks. I've never read of a front rank only holding shields. Even the guys carrying the pavaises for the crossbowmen carried spears. Horses will not run themselves up against spears. You hold your formation and the horses will simply stop. And you set deep so that they can't ride through you and attack you from the rear if they do get past the spears. You also mass your bowmen. Killing is done by filling a "killing box" with arrows. One hundred archers put at least six hundred arrows a minute into a box 20-30 feet wide and long. You can get maybe thirty UNARMORED Dothraki and their UNARMORED horses into that box, which can be up to two hundred yards away. In the four minutes in which you would usually run out of arrows, you will have killed or disabled 120 Dothraki and/or their horses. You pull in the rest of the troops from the front and rear part of the point at which you're being attacked to get the number of Soldiers needed to make your formations deep enough. If you drive off the Dothraki, you can recapture the wagons you abandoned, if you don't it doesn't matter. And where's YOUR mounted element. Any convoy like this would have a point, flank guards and rear guard of scouts and screens of mounted men, light cavalry or mounted archers. There would be units of medium and heavy cavalry, men-at-arms, dispersed along the column to provide a mounted reserve. A mounted man-at-arms, knight, esquire or mercenary has spent his life, since the age of seven training as a mounted, armored warrior. His skills are not any less than a Dothraki and his weapons and armor, mounted on his warhorse are superior. Throughout the medieval period, properly supported infantry that maintained their morale and formation could stand against any cavalry. The English bowmen, bill men and Welsh spearmen at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt, the Scottish peasants at Bannockburn, the Flemish merchants and guildsmen at Courtrai, even the Swiss usually trained three to four hours every Sunday and a  couple weeks between sowing and harvest. And they certainly didn't cut and run, but defeated the opposing men-at-arms. Jaimie and Tarley should have had at least 10,000 to 15,000 men guarding that convoy, meaning they should have moved in block of 3-5,000 interspersed among the wagons, so that they could block raids they knew were coming, since I doubt they didn't know that the Dothraki weren't ashore. Still, if the proper tactics were used, unless the Lannisters and Tarleys killed the horses, mules and oxen before the wagons and carts could be captured, the Dothraki could have pecked away at the convoy, over-running and pulling away wagons and carts of supplies they needed. Of course, all bets are off when Drogon shows up like an A-10 "Warthog" with unlimited napalm. 

3. The objective of the Dothraki attack did make sense. Danerys needed those supplies for herself and to deny them to Cersei. Proper tactics would also have attritioned Cersei's forces. Right up to the point Danerys arrived and started burning wagons.

Edited by Michael Snyder

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32 minutes ago, Michael Snyder said:

1. That's a good point. Danerys needs those supplies as much as Cersei. She has an army to feed and winter is coming. No more harvests, the food animals have all been slaughtered and dressed for salted or dried meat for the winter. So she has Drogon burn the wagons with the supplies in them. Well, I guess they could eat fish. No, Euron has command of the sea. Too bad.

2. As a retired professional Soldier and a student of military history, I love GoT as an example of its genre but its portrayal of medieval warfare truly sucks. Charles the Bold of Burgundy, like Alexander the Great, tried to marry bows to his pikes and failed. He built a combined arms army with men-at-arms and he failed, the Swiss swept him off the battlefield. The Successors never tried out Alexander's experiment in battle. But the whole battle was just impossible. The Dothraki attack. They have limited numbers of bows and they stand in the saddle to shoot and shoot accurately. BS. As nomadic warriors, most of them should have had bows, or at least darts and javelins. They would ride in a circle within effective range of their weapons, using the numbers of darts, javelins and arrows to disrupt their enemies' formation and morale, sometimes feigning retreat to pull the enemy from their ranks so they could be isolated and ridden down, before the ARMORED portion of the horde armed with lances attacked in close formation and rode down their enemies. Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians, Sassanid Persians, Alani, Saracens, Mamelukes, Seljuk Turks, Tartars, Mongols, Manchus, Magyars, Avars, even Sioux and Cheyenne, it doesn't matter, their weapons, armor and tactics were very similar. Second, what was Jaimie and Tarly thinking? Any convoy attacked by cavalry, heavy, medium or light, pulled their wagons into circles or squares and the accompanying troops fought from BEHIND their bulk or between the wagons, using them to stop or break up the charge. If not, they pulled themselves into deep formations at least eight ranks deep, all armed with spears, even the front ranks. I've never read of a front rank only holding shields. Even the guys carrying the pavaises for the crossbowmen carried spears. Horses will not run themselves up against spears. You hold your formation and the horses will simply stop. And you set deep so that they can't ride through you and attack you from the rear if they do get past the spears. You also mass your bowmen. Killing is done by filling a "killing box" with arrows. One hundred archers put at least six hundred arrows a minute into a box 20-30 feet wide and long. You can get maybe thirty UNARMORED Dothraki and their UNARMORED horses into that box, which can be up to two hundred yards away. In the four minutes in which you would usually run out of arrows, you will have killed or disabled 120 Dothraki and/or their horses. You pull in the rest of the troops from the front and rear part of the point at which you're being attacked to get the number of Soldiers needed to make your formations deep enough. If you drive off the Dothraki, you can recapture the wagons you abandoned, if you don't it doesn't matter. And where's YOUR mounted element. Any convoy like this would have a point, flank guards and rear guard of scouts and screens of mounted men, light cavalry or mounted archers. There would be units of medium and heavy cavalry, men-at-arms, dispersed along the column to provide a mounted reserve. A mounted man-at-arms, knight, esquire or mercenary has spent his life, since the age of seven training as a mounted, armored warrior. His skills are not any less than a Dothraki and his weapons and armor, mounted on his warhorse are superior. Throughout the medieval period, properly supported infantry that maintained their morale and formation could stand against any cavalry. The English bowmen, bill men and Welsh spearmen at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt, the Scottish peasants at Bannockburn, the Flemish merchants and guildsmen at Courtrai, even the Swiss usually trained three to four hours every Sunday and a  couple weeks between sowing and harvest. And they certainly didn't cut and run, but defeated the opposing men-at-arms. Jaimie and Tarley should have had at least 10,000 to 15,000 men guarding that convoy, meaning they should have moved in block of 3-5,000 interspersed among the wagons, so that they could block raids they knew were coming, since I doubt they didn't know that the Dothraki weren't ashore. Still, if the proper tactics were used, unless the Lannisters and Tarleys killed the horses, mules and oxen before the wagons and carts could be captured, the Dothraki could have pecked away at the convoy, over-running and pulling away wagons and carts of supplies they needed. Of course, all bets are off when Drogon shows up like an A-10 "Warthog" with unlimited napalm. 

3. The objective of the Dothraki attack did make sense. Danerys needed those supplies for herself and to deny them to Cersei. Proper tactics would also have attritioned Cersei's forces. Right up to the point Danerys arrived and started burning wagons.

I would have set Daenerys and Drogon against the soldiers and send the Dothraki  to block the road and seize the supply train. It’s horrible PR for Dany to destroy the supplies now that Winter is Coming, and not pragmatic; how are her armies feeding themselves? An army is only as good as its means of supporting itself, i.e. an army in the desert should never stray far from an adequate water supply.

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Certainly Cersei needed the supplies to feed her army. Why? We know that the last winter ended in 283 AC. Ned Stark and his contemporaries, all between 17 and 20, were born in winter. This implies the previous winter had lasted at least 20 years. The Maesters declared that winter was here in Season Six. At the start of Season One, Westeros had seen 15 years of peace since Robert's ascension to the Throne. That means summer has lasted around 20 years. This has been going on for at least 8,000 years in the memory and records of men. Given the assumption that Westerosi plant and animal life remains analogous to Earth types and germination takes 3-4 months and gestation periods remain the same, we should have seen three to four harvests of grains each of the 20 years. This is 2-3 times what an Earth cycle would provide. Some of this food has to be prepared and stored after each harvest for the coming winter. There should also have been around 40 generations of domestic animals, cattle, sheep, goats, fowl. These would be slaughtered and processed as needed, with some of the meat being salted or dried and stored. With winter coming, all but a breeding group of these animals would be retained with sufficient fodder to see them through the winter, the rest being slaughtered and processed into storage. Fish and other products of the sea, the lakes and rivers (until the deep freeze) would be available and could also be salted and dried. But this food is to sustain people through the winter. Now if winters are relative in their distance from the Wall, which compares to the areas in northern Europe close to the Arctic circle, then we would still see the lower Reach and Dorne planting and harvesting grains and some vegetables and fruits. These areas probably don't need the amount of storage needed in the North. In fact, there was probably a lively trade of Northern ores, lumber, hides and furs for excess food from the south. But going back to the southern Reach and Dorne, there would be readily available food supplies there to be exploited, without putting the supplies needed for winter at risk. Which is why the Lannister campaign in the Reach makes sense, by securing those food supplies and future food supplies for their armies by eliminating the Tyrells and raising the Tarleys. It also made sense for Danerys to seek to capture that food for her own armies. What didn't make sense was her using Drogon to destroy the same supplies she needed. One resource she really needs to collect is fodder for the Dothraki horses, which aren't the usual steppe nomad ponies able to live on almost anything.

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