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Season 8 potential characters couple pairings


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9 minutes ago, Faera said:

Oh, they definitely failed. You are pretty much the first person I have found to even suggest it was consistent. 

But what else is new? Sometimes it feels there are more failures than successes in the writing these days. -_-

Technically that would be a failure in the acting and directing if he was supposed to have changed last year

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3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yeah, I think he behaved normally in season 6 after he became 3ER.

I watch the show with a few friends, some are show-watchers while others have read the books, every single one of us were confused by how Bran was acting pretty much from the off. So, yeah. In the end, we joked that that Tower of Joy weirwood tree was bad-tree and that screwed up his brain.

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7 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Technically that would be a failure in the acting and directing if he was supposed to have changed last year

Sure, but I question whether the script made it clear in the first place, or if it was there to begin with and this literally was a sudden emphasis added in S7.

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12 minutes ago, Faera said:

I watch the show with a few friends, some are show-watchers while others have read the books, every single one of us were confused by how Bran was acting pretty much from the off. So, yeah. In the end, we joked that that Tower of Joy weirwood tree was bad-tree and that screwed up his brain.

As a Bran fan, I'm sad because they prove to be very bad writers, not even being consistent with their own inventions. Bran is supposed to be this way because he has dowloaded the info so quickly, but the real reason is to make the s7 wf plot work. If they wanted to make it work, he should have behaved oddly in s6, but he didn't. It's sad, but they have destroyed other characters that I like such as Arya, who sometimes I don't recognise (and others behaves as the Arya I know), and well, many other characters, it's just bad bad writing.

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11 minutes ago, Faera said:

Sure, but I question whether the script made it clear in the first place, or if it was there to begin with and this literally was a sudden emphasis added in S7.

sudden emphasis from this year, explained in the "outisde" the episodes, with no consistency with whhat they had done the previous year. But this show is not supposed to be consistent.

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7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As a Bran fan, I'm sad because they prove to be very bad writers, not even being consistent with their own inventions. Bran is supposed to be this way because he has dowloaded the info so quickly, but the real reason is to make the s7 wf plot work. If they wanted to make it work, he should have behaved oddly in s6, but he didn't. It's sad, but they have destroyed other characters that I like such as Arya, who sometimes I don't recognise (and others behaves as the Arya I know), and well, many other characters, it's just bad bad writing.

Ouch. This show must be tough for a book Bran fan. Talk about a character significantly diminished in the adaptation. 

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6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Ouch. This show must be tough for a book Bran fan. Talk about a character significantly diminished in the adaptation. 

*sniff* You can say that again. 

I even quite liked him in the show, too. Once.

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8 minutes ago, Faera said:

 *sniff* You can say that again. 

I even quite liked him in the show, too. Once.

I actually do like him. But thats because he reveals good plot details now and him being so weird is funny to me. I thought he was sorta boring in the early seasons. Plus, how he fits into the end game and the meaning behind his visions in 4x02 and 6x06 seems like the most interesting mystery left in the show.

But overall, if its not the core seven characters, not sure you can expect much from the show.

 

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2 hours ago, Faera said:

The reason why this bugs me so much is that Bran implies that he can "remember" so much. If it was just a case of him needing to go looking for the information, like going through a filing cabinet, then why is he the way he is now i.e. so stilted and devoid of personality. It can't just be 3ER memories because "Bloodraven" seemed perfectly fine. It doesn't make the best sense to me. Then again, nothing about his sudden switch from being just-a-bit-wobbly-but-still-fine at the end of S6 and a literal robot in S7. I guess that weirdwood in the cursed forest must be some bad tree.

Well, S7 is consistent with the start of S6 if you just ignore his scenes in late S6.

I think this problem is a consequence of running the show like a serial instead of an epic. They know where they need everyone to be for the big conclusion, but beyond that, they do very little cross-season planning.

GRRM does the same thing with the books—but the difference is that when he runs into problems where things don't join up right, he'll push the characters around and see what else they might do, and he'll keep doing it for as long as it takes, even if that forces him to split the book in half and release the second half 8 years late and oversized even based on the split plan. D&D don't want to do that, and couldn't even if they wanted to, so when things don't join up right, they just try to quickly paper over the join and hope nobody notices.

When the joins aren't that bad, papering over them works fine (a few hundred nitpicky book snobs will jump up and down and whine about them, but who cares?). But when they're as big as 3ER Bran not being 3ER Bran until S7, there's just not enough paper to cover it up, but the writers still try to handle it the same way, which just makes it more jarring. The only way it could be worse would be if they directly lampshaded the problems but then tried to take them seriously anyway (which they actually did once, with LF admitting to Sansa that even he doesn't know what his Ramsay plan was about, but thankfully only that once).

Anyway, nobody's ever done anything like an 8-season epic TV series before, so it's understandable that D&D wouldn't see the problems in advance. And even more understandable given that they had a few books ahead of them to work off in the early years, which obviously disguised the potential for problems.

But of course it's still disappointing. If they'd sat down in S4 and worked out enough details that they could build each season into a framework, instead of building them independently and trying to join them up, the result could have been even better than S1-3.

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7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Well, S7 is consistent with the start of S6 if you just ignore his scenes in late S6.

I think this problem is a consequence of running the show like a serial instead of an epic. They know where they need everyone to be for the big conclusion, but beyond that, they do very little cross-season planning.

GRRM does the same thing with the books—but the difference is that when he runs into problems where things don't join up right, he'll push the characters around and see what else they might do, and he'll keep doing it for as long as it takes, even if that forces him to split the book in half and release the second half 8 years late and oversized even based on the split plan. D&D don't want to do that, and couldn't even if they wanted to, so when things don't join up right, they just try to quickly paper over the join and hope nobody notices.

When the joins aren't that bad, papering over them works fine (a few hundred nitpicky book snobs will jump up and down and whine about them, but who cares?). But when they're as big as 3ER Bran not being 3ER Bran until S7, there's just not enough paper to cover it up, but the writers still try to handle it the same way, which just makes it more jarring. The only way it could be worse would be if they directly lampshaded the problems but then tried to take them seriously anyway (which they actually did once, with LF admitting to Sansa that even he doesn't know what his Ramsay plan was about, but thankfully only that once).

Anyway, nobody's ever done anything like an 8-season epic TV series before, so it's understandable that D&D wouldn't see the problems in advance. And even more understandable given that they had a few books ahead of them to work off in the early years, which obviously disguised the potential for problems.

But of course it's still disappointing. If they'd sat down in S4 and worked out enough details that they could build each season into a framework, instead of building them independently and trying to join them up, the result could have been even better than S1-3.

Why do you say they do little cross season planning? Most of the interviews i have seen suggest that is not the case. 

I think its more likely they cross season plan poorly or are willing to change things in the middle despite what they planned than that they don’t do any cross season planning. 

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Why do you say they do little cross season planning? Most of the interviews i have seen suggest that is not the case. 

I think its more likely they cross season plan poorly or are willing to change things in the middle despite what they planned than that they don’t do any cross season planning. 

When they talk about planning, it's usually things like "We know where the characters have to be for the start of next season", which doesn't sound very detailed, or very long-range.

Do you think they really knew a few years ago that, say, Bran was going to be returning to Winterfell in S7, and they'd need some way to keep his new powers from being too much of an instawin for the Starks, while at the same time they'd want to fit him into a troubled-Stark-reunion plotline? Or do you think they just knew that they wanted to have Bran in a place by the end of S6 where they could bring him home during S7, and that's all they really knew?

I suspect it's a lot closer to the latter than the former. If they'd thought of the situation Bran would be returning to, and the problems and opportunities that would bring, I'm pretty sure they would have come up with the supercomputer-brain idea and not-enough-training-with-Yoda twist on it, and written Bran the same way in late S6 that they ended up writing him in S7.

At any rate, it really doesn't matter anymore at this point. All the setup is pretty much done, and S8 is all conclusion, so this problem won't affect them anymore whether or not it has in the past.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

When they talk about planning, it's usually things like "We know where the characters have to be for the start of next season", which doesn't sound very detailed, or very long-range.

Do you think they really knew a few years ago that, say, Bran was going to be returning to Winterfell in S7, and they'd need some way to keep his new powers from being too much of an instawin for the Starks, while at the same time they'd want to fit him into a troubled-Stark-reunion plotline? Or do you think they just knew that they wanted to have Bran in a place by the end of S6 where they could bring him home during S7, and that's all they really knew?

I suspect it's a lot closer to the latter than the former. If they'd thought of the situation Bran would be returning to, and the problems and opportunities that would bring, I'm pretty sure they would have come up with the supercomputer-brain idea and not-enough-training-with-Yoda twist on it, and written Bran the same way in late S6 that they ended up writing him in S7.

At any rate, it really doesn't matter anymore at this point. All the setup is pretty much done, and S8 is all conclusion, so this problem won't affect them anymore whether or not it has in the past.

I actually don’t think bran acted any different though. After he becomes 3ER he says the following lines of dialogue in season 6

1.) Scene where they are about to get killed: 

BRAN: Meera. They found us.

Went back and watched the scene and he is super monotone and unemotional to Meera who is breaking down about how she failed him. 

2.) scene with Uncle Benjen:

BRAN: Who are you?

BRAN: Uncle Benjen. The last letter Jon wrote me said you had been lost beyond the Wall.

BRAN: How?

BRAN: Dragonglass. A shard of dragonglass plunged into your heart.

BRAN: I didn’t have time to learn. I can’t control anything.

5 small lines of dialogue none in which he expresses or shows emotion at seeing his uncle alive again. 

3.) Scene in 6x10

BRAN: Thank you, Uncle Benjen.

BRAN:I’m the Three-Eyed Raven now. I have to be ready for this.

again, he is saying bye to his uncle and all he says is thanks. Thats literally the only dialogue he has in season 6 post becoming the three eyed raven and in none of them does he emote.   At best you can say the tone in his voice goes up when he says uncle benjen in 2.)but not noticeably different than when he says Samwell Tarley in 7x07. 

But that is an aside. Regarding the planning or lack there of it sounds like its just an inference your making. Since its super subjective and there is no actual evidence regarding the actual planning or lack there of probably not a fruitful conversation. 

 

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16 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The show dealt with her traumas in season 5 (there are some scenes that show this). They ended in the finale of season 5 when she jumped. In season 6 she is strong enough to face LF for what he did to her and she even faces Ramsay, ultimately ordering the dogs to kill him. In season 7 she is totally a woman on top and a ruling Lady and she finally kills LF, ending her past as a victim (I've learn a lot from you LF). She has become the master, and the master has been executed. You could argue that season 5 was not time enough to deal with the trauma, and I could answer you yes, we have to take into account that the show INVENTED the whole thing and they are not good with storytelling without book sources. The thing is she healed two seasons ago. If she wants to move on with a man, she will. If Sansa wants, she will. The show established she has moved on, so if she does find love, you can't say it's because that (you can blame on how they developed the story, but the facts speak for their own).

The show did most certainly not deal with her traumas in season 5 as she was still being abused in season 5.
Her being strong enough to face LF and Ramsay does not mean that she has processed everything that has happened and moved on, it just means that she's strong enough to not reduce herself to a victim sobbing in the corner.

As for the show inventing the Sansa storyline in S5, that's highly irrelevant here. The show is the show and what happens in the show is canon for the show, even if you don't like it or agree with it or consider the books superior.

How can you even say that Sansa healed two seasons ago? Best case scenario is that she finally managed to heal and move on in S7, but even that it unlikely. I actually know a victim of sexual abuse and despite being one of the strongest women I know, she still hasn't fully moved on 25 years later. Sansa went trough much much worse, and I'm willing to concede that the show has portrayed her as actually processing her abuse, but she has not moved on. What she endured is not something you can simply walk off in a couple of months. That statement in itself is a huge disservice to men and women everywhere who has been sexually abused, as you basically reduce their trauma to "Bah, snap out of it!"
 

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It's not from nothing, that was Jonerys. He has been his protector (true knight) several times and they were friends. It's a BatB story actually. The Beauty has to see the beauty inside the Beast, and Sandor now is a better person (even if he always was good to her) in general, since he met Ray.

The person they loved is not gone, but of course, they won't kiss in their first scene together. They will talk a lot before. They'll probably like each other even more, because Sansa is older and more secure of herself  after everything she has exeperienced, and Sandor has been with Arya and helped Jon, something that Sansa will like.

I explained why they don't have this relationship anymore (if they ever did) in my response to @jcmontea in this same post. 

Sandor protected Sansa sure, but ...friends? She barely acknowledged his presence or thanked him when he saved her. In what ways did she consider Sandor her friend?

Will Sandor like S8 Sansa more than S2 Sansa? Probably. Will Sansa like S8 Sandor more than S2 Sandor? Definitely.
Does this mean they'll end up having a romantic relationship? I sincerely doubt it, and as I said, there is no current foundation for their relationship, because they've both changed to much that they are essentially entirely different persons than they where in S2.

Jonerys had a foundation based similarities and parallels, plus as the main powercouple of the show, they got a large portion of screentime to develop their romance. Sansan lacks these similarities and parallels, and there'a not a chance in the seven hells that they'll get as much screentime together in S8 as Jonerys did in S7.
Them having a romance in S8 would probably make Sansan-shippers happy, but it would be weird and nonsensical for everyone else.
 

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Your reasoning about Arya-Sandor upsetting you less is not consistent with the arguments you provided, since, if you believe he is like a father to her, it would be horrible to develop a romance between them (incest between father figure and daughter is really gross). Moreover, you refer to the age gap as a problem. If it realy is (which is subjective), then bear in mind that Arya is 2 years younger than Sansa.

You missed my point. I said I would have less issues with a Arya/Sandor romance, I didn't say I wouldn't have any issues with it. (I would.)

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15 hours ago, Newstar said:

Michele Clapton pretty much said that the reason that she didn't give Dany a crown in S7 is that she still has a bit further to go before that can happen. She'll get her crown when she and Jon (I assume) ascend the throne together.

 

15 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I am not going to lie. I think that would be a very satisfying moment for most people who watch the show. Literally 8 years building towards that. I also interpreted Michelle’s comments that way. 

Interesting. I haven't actually thought about the fact that Daenerys doesn't have a crown yet, despite having been queen for 4 seasons.
Jon doesn't have a crown either though.

Hopefully this is because they're saving their coronations until the very end of S8. No crowns until they're (both) truly worthy of them, and they won't be until the war against the AotD and Cersei is won, and once they have them they won't loose them. This would fit with the LotR-parallel where Aragorn wasn't crowned until after the war.

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

 

Interesting. I haven't actually thought about the fact that Daenerys doesn't have a crown yet, despite having been queen for 4 seasons.
Jon doesn't have a crown either though.

Hopefully this is because they're saving their coronations until the very end of S8. No crowns until they're (both) truly worthy of them, and they won't be until the war against the AotD and Cersei is won, and once they have them they won't loose them. This would fit with the LotR-parallel where Aragorn wasn't crowned until after the war.

Black crowns with red rubbies! 

25 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The show did most certainly not deal with her traumas in season 5 as she was still being abused in season 5.
Her being strong enough to face LF and Ramsay does not mean that she has processed everything that has happened and moved on, it just means that she's strong enough to not reduce herself to a victim sobbing in the corner.

As for the show inventing the Sansa storyline in S5, that's highly irrelevant here. The show is the show and what happens in the show is canon for the show, even if you don't like it or agree with it or consider the books superior.

How can you even say that Sansa healed two seasons ago? Best case scenario is that she finally managed to heal and move on in S7, but even that it unlikely. I actually know a victim of sexual abuse and despite being one of the strongest women I know, she still hasn't fully moved on 25 years later. Sansa went trough much much worse, and I'm willing to concede that the show has portrayed her as actually processing her abuse, but she has not moved on. What she endured is not something you can simply walk off in a couple of months. That statement in itself is a huge disservice to men and women everywhere who has been sexually abused, as you basically reduce their trauma to "Bah, snap out 

Great points. Another idea that runs counter to the whole Sansa moved on idea is the costumes. Michelle Clapton specifically said she designed a costume for Sansa that “wrap around over her side-laced dress to represent the absolute removal of any possible physical touch.”  That is not the costume design of someone who is over it.

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18 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Michele Clapton knows what she's doing. She also kept Dany out of Targ colours until she was good and ready.

She is so good. Her costumes along with Ramin’s score just add such a critical element to the storytelling that goes on.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

The show did most certainly not deal with her traumas in season 5 as she was still being abused in season 5.
Her being strong enough to face LF and Ramsay does not mean that she has processed everything that has happened and moved on, it just means that she's strong enough to not reduce herself to a victim sobbing in the corner.

As for the show inventing the Sansa storyline in S5, that's highly irrelevant here. The show is the show and what happens in the show is canon for the show, even if you don't like it or agree with it or consider the books superior.

How can you even say that Sansa healed two seasons ago? Best case scenario is that she finally managed to heal and move on in S7, but even that it unlikely. I actually know a victim of sexual abuse and despite being one of the strongest women I know, she still hasn't fully moved on 25 years later. Sansa went trough much much worse, and I'm willing to concede that the show has portrayed her as actually processing her abuse, but she has not moved on. What she endured is not something you can simply walk off in a couple of months. That statement in itself is a huge disservice to men and women everywhere who has been sexually abused, as you basically reduce their trauma to "Bah, snap out of it!"
 

Sandor protected Sansa sure, but ...friends? She barely acknowledged his presence or thanked him when he saved her. In what ways did she consider Sandor her friend?

Will Sandor like S8 Sansa more than S2 Sansa? Probably. Will Sansa like S8 Sandor more than S2 Sandor? Definitely.
Does this mean they'll end up having a romantic relationship? I sincerely doubt it, and as I said, there is no current foundation for their relationship, because they've both changed to much that they are essentially entirely different persons than they where in S2.

Jonerys had a foundation based similarities and parallels, plus as the main powercouple of the show, they got a large portion of screentime to develop their romance. Sansan lacks these similarities and parallels, and there'a not a chance in the seven hells that they'll get as much screentime together in S8 as Jonerys did in S7.
Them having a romance in S8 would probably make Sansan-shippers happy, but it would be weird and nonsensical for everyone else.
 

You missed my point. I said I would have less issues with a Arya/Sandor romance, I didn't say I wouldn't have any issues with it. (I would.)

1) i said NOTHinG TO VICTIMS of sexual abuse. Re read my whole argumentation please.

2) i didn't miss your point. Having less issues it is still insonsistent since she is objectively ypunger and falling for a so called fatherly figure (in your words) is much GROSs than your persinal issues with Sansan.

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19 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Moreover, it is also established that Sansa does not need a "mother-protective" figure anymore when she DEMANDS Brienne to leave to KL bc she doesn't ned her protection.

Sansa doesn't need her protection / wached over/ cared for anymore (in her words).. 

I'm not a child, and I'm LOW and I'm home.

The trip to KL is long....

 

Oh...And also when she finally executes LF for his crimes.

Both girls have grown up.

The show dealt with her traumas in season 5 (there are some scenes that show this). They ended in the finale of season 5 when she jumped. In season 6 she is strong enough to face LF for what he did to her and she even faces Ramsay, ultimately ordering the dogs to kill him. In season 7 she is totally a woman on top and a ruling Lady and she finally kills LF, ending her past as a victim (I've learn a lot from you LF). She has become the master, and the master has been executed. You could argue that season 5 was not time enough to deal with the trauma, and I could answer you yes, we have to take into account that the show INVENTED the whole thing and they are not good with storytelling without book sources. The thing is she healed two seasons ago. If she wants to move on with a man, she will. If Sansa wants, she will. The show established she has moved on, so if she does find love, you can't say it's because that (you can blame on how they developed the story, but the facts speak for their own).

 

It's not from nothing, that was Jonerys. He has been his protector (true knight) several times and they were friends. It's a BatB story actually. The Beauty has to see the beauty inside the Beast, and Sandor now is a better person (even if he always was good to her) in general, since he met Ray.

The person they loved is not gone, but of course, they won't kiss in their first scene together. They will talk a lot before. They'll probably like each other even more, because Sansa is older and more secure of herself  after everything she has exeperienced, and Sandor has been with Arya and helped Jon, something that Sansa will like.

All your points are wonderful. :)

I know lots of us are super disgusted at the way they keep saying three seasons later a raped woman can't find love. They repeatedly have dismissed the raped women who asked them repeatedly to stop (check out the posting history many have asked them to stop). One woman even told her story and said this way the rapist wins.

Not only ignoring fictional women but women on this forum, too. The same one who was shipping Sansa with Tyrion then Jon then wanted her DEAD not long ago wants her alone now. LOL as if anyone hasn't noticed this.

The show presented Sansa as ready to move on in a million ways, including a pointed reference to Sandor along with what don't you have now that would make you happy. Same season they had him called out as sad after a transition from her to him, and a beautiful gingers reference. They keep playing with what would make each of them happy.

And even in season 5 which wasn't even Sansa's real story they had Ramsay say he expected a bearded beast but got a beauty. But hey just ignore the BIG OLE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST STORY THAT IS ON THE SHOW TOO. And there is lots more here.

Ah, and the incomplete quote from the costume designer again! Leaving out the point: "It's a message to Littlefinger." It's laughable to dismiss the things the actors and showrunners say, but suddenly, THE COSTUME DESIGNER OMG! The same costume designer who meticulously has birds sewn into Cersei's undergarments because she thinks that's her thing.

“This is her taking back control of her body. I designed [the belt] to wrap around over her side-laced dress to represent the absolute removal of any possible physical touch. Her dresses are also tightly-laced on, incredibly difficult to remove; it’s a message to Littlefinger.

And yeah, I know they keep this up because everyone said incest is gross but both actors said incest is gross and Peter Dinklage who knows the ending said it's not good and hinted it won't end well. The 3 episodes later then incest EPIC romance!

 

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