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Heresy 202 and still going


Black Crow

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39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Stone swords don't work. What the tree-huggers might have done is made Aztec style wooden swords with sharp flakes on obsidian [dragonglass] set into them to form a "blade".

The First Men however came to Westeros with bronze weapons from the very beginning and so slaughtered them

Either weirwood swords or the swords of the Others. The problem with the Other swords is just ... they are too powerful. Maybe they work only in winter ... idk. I think in general we have two technological advances (all over Planetos) mirroring each other. And the Night's Watch was founded when the pact was signed. The Wall came a Long Night cycle later. And the last cycle 4k years ago was somehow avoided. Now if the valyrian steel has caused this cycle or if it would come 4k years regardless ... who knows if it is even 4k years.

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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Still seems like an unusual combination.  If bronze was common and cheap and iron was rare and expensive,  why not make a crown of iron by itself?

There are oddities regarding iron and its relationship to the Starks and the Others that make me think that the Starks were newcomers with knowledge of iron at the time of the Long Night (or fighting the Others is more common than the legends say). We have the Others "being cold things, dead things, that hated iron", the iron swords warding the death Starks, the iron and bronze crown, the Last Hero fighting with dragonsteel and the Reed's oath.

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Better to use the iron for swords - and put a ring of small ones on the crown to signify that what we have we hold by the sword

Or that nine are sworn swords of the King of Winter.  Add the sword, shield, watcher and a weirwood dog and that makes thirteen.

I have a feeling that the original oath of the Night's Watch has had a part of the oath removed and replaced and should be:

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."  We swear it by earth and water, we swear it by bronze and iron, we swear it by ice and fire.

This could be why Melisandre says the Wall is as much her place as Jon's and I also think this is the oath that Sam makes to Jojen, Bran and Coldhands binding him to silence.

 

 

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

   Or that nine are sworn swords of the King of Winter.  Add the sword, shield, watcher and a weirwood dog and that makes thirteen.

I have a feeling that the original oath of the Night's Watch has had a part of the oath removed and replaced and should be:

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."  We swear it by earth and water, we swear it by bronze and iron, we swear it by ice and fire.

This could be why Melisandre says the Wall is as much her place as Jon's and I also think this is the oath that Sam makes to Jojen, Bran and Coldhands binding him to silence.

 

 

I'm not so sure. The oath is interestingly structured in that the two Reeds do not recite it as one.

Reed 1         We swear it by Earth and Water

Reed 2         We swear it by Bronze and Iron

Together      We swear it by Ice and Fire

Its a binding oath, hence my suggestion it was how the Pact was sworn, ie:

CotF                       We swear it by Earth and water 

Men                       We swear it by Bronze and Iron

Together                We swear it by Ice and Fire

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When Royce and companions rode north nine days in the prologue, could it be that the passed time was metaphoric ?

edit: same goes for:

Nine years Syrio Forel was first sword to the Sealord of Braavos, he knows these things. Listen to him, boy."

Small wonder the clansmen had left nine bodies on the ground.

And the list goes on. There are a lot of incidents where people mention the number nine or leave nine bodys. It's almost a codeword.

 

edit2: I also think lord commander 999 will be something very very special concerning all the nines

And of course the 9 years of summer is not random. It's also a codeword or coded time. Someone is sending messages of 9s through the world. 

 

edit3: Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, the Lord of the Iron Islands. 

And Euron is the fifth. 

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I've got nothing else at the moment on the current discussion although Black Crow suggested a discussion about the song of ice and fire; what it is, what it means etc.  I've been wondering about the use of repetition in the text as a kind of ear worm.  The most obvious example is Mormont's Raven repeating corn, corn, corn. 

For example, Samwell an earworm in relation to the oath he took not to speak of Bran:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens, the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

Jon experiences an earworm when discover Othor:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

 

Oliver Sacks on Earworms in relation to the music we hear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plg8m-RaAlE

Is it possible that Martin is using earworms to indicate a part of the song unique to the character?  What about Hodor who hums to himself a tune that only he hears:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

They left Old Nan in the tower room with her needles and her memories. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he carried Bran down the steps and through the gallery, with Maester Luwin following behind, hurrying to keep up with the stableboy's long strides.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The godswood was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become. Hodor made his way through the dense stands of oak and ironwood and sentinels, to the still pool beside the heart tree. He stopped under the gnarled limbs of the weirwood, humming.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The rustling grew louder. Bran heard muffled footfalls and a low humming, and Hodor came blundering out of the trees, naked and smiling. "Hodor!"

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

When Hodor came bustling in, smiling and humming tunelessly, he found the boy resigned to his fate.

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

A few moments passed before they heard a tuneless humming. Hodor arrived half-dressed and mud-spattered from his visit to the hot pools, but Bran had never been so glad to see him. "Hodor, help me. Chase off the wolves. Chase them off." 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

The trail they followed was a little easier that day, and by noon the sun came breaking through the clouds. Bran sat in his basket up on Hodor's back and felt almost content. He dozed off once, lulled to sleep by the smooth swing of the big stableboy's stride and the soft humming sound he made sometimes when he walked. Meera woke him up with a light touch on his arm. "Look," she said, pointing at the sky with her frog spear, "an eagle." 

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

"The night will end, though. If they stay till morning . . ." Jojen left the rest unsaid. After a few moments he said, "They are feeding the fire the first man started." Lightning crashed through the sky, and light filled the tower and etched them all in shadow. Hodor rocked back and forth, humming.

 

Does Hodor hear the song all the time? 

Quote

Or working in reverse, can earworms act to calm you down?” It would explain why we sometimes get earworms even when we haven’t been listening to music at all, or why people who spend a great deal of time in nature often report beginning to hear every sound—wind blowing, leaves rustling, water rippling—as music, which their brain spontaneously plays over and over.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/anatomy-of-an-earworm

Hodor is afraid only at certain times... During thunder storms.  Does this disrupt the music he hears adding frightening or discordant notes.

Quote

A surgeon is struck by lightning and becomes obsessed with Chopin. An eminent psychoanalyst is kept awake by hallucinations of a singing rabbi. An amnesiac musicologist incapable of remembering anything that happened more a few seconds ago finds refuge from his disoriented existence by performing Bach fugues.

https://www.wired.com/2007/09/ff-musicophilia/

What of Melisandre's use of an earworm; the power of word for creating a glamor:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

Does Patchface hear the song and sing it as jingles?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"A few words. As I said, they are clever, these birds."

"Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool," said Patchface, jangling. "Oh, clever clever clever fool." He began to sing. "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor

 

Patchface's jingles could qualify as advertisement.  :D

ear·worm
ˈirˌwərm/
noun
plural noun: earworms
  1. 1.
    short for corn earworm.
  2. 2.
    informal
    a catchy song or tune that runs continually through a person's mind.
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21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think the key phrase there is "sweeping through the Vale with fire and sword".

I think it's "conquest of Westeros."  Marriage certainly happened, but let's not kid ourselves; the Andals were conquerors. 

Even if you confine the discussion to the Vale, the same argument applies -- the invaders simply overwhelmed the far more numerous, far better entrenched First Men, who had no respect for the faith of the Seven and no desire to be replaced.

How did that happen?  The Andals' supply chain stretched backwards across the Narrow Sea, and the Vale is full of mountainous terrain that, as we all know from the history of Afghanistan, makes it incredibly hard for invaders to gain a permanent foothold.   Imagine what must have been required.

It seems the only plausible explanation for this extraordinary outcome is superior weaponry.  I don't think it's much of a stretch to guess Luwin was correct, and in a practical sense if not a total sense, the Andals introduced steel to Westeros.

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15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or that nine are sworn swords of the King of Winter.

Yes, we really have no idea what the swords on the crown stood for, or for that matter, if they stood for anything.  

It could simply be that as Brad Stark suggested, originally it was a bronze crown and centuries later, as iron was developed, decorative iron swords were added and nine were required to fill up the space.

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47 minutes ago, JNR said:

I think it's "conquest of Westeros."  Marriage certainly happened, but let's not kid ourselves; the Andals were conquerors. 

Even if you confine the discussion to the Vale, the same argument applies -- the invaders simply overwhelmed the far more numerous, far better entrenched First Men, who had no respect for the faith of the Seven and no desire to be replaced.

How did that happen?  The Andals' supply chain stretched backwards across the Narrow Sea, and the Vale is full of mountainous terrain that, as we all know from the history of Afghanistan, makes it incredibly hard for invaders to gain a permanent foothold.   Imagine what must have been required.

It seems the only plausible explanation for this extraordinary outcome is superior weaponry.  I don't think it's much of a stretch to guess Luwin was correct, and in a practical sense if not a total sense, the Andals introduced steel to Westeros.

Ah, no, you misunderstand me. The reference to the Vale was the business of the Andals conquering it with steel, long before they set to against the rest of Westeros; my argument being that the technology gap may not have been so one sided by the time they did

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1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

Why haven't we discussed numerology more?  Some numbers such as 7 have obvious meaning, but we see it here with 9 and have talked before about 13.  I bet there is a lot of significance to these numbers.

There might well be, but we can't ignore the likelihood that GRRM uses them because it suits him or is even being lazy.

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure. The oath is interestingly structured in that the two Reeds do not recite it as one.

Reed 1         We swear it by Earth and Water

Reed 2         We swear it by Bronze and Iron

Together      We swear it by Ice and Fire

Its a binding oath, hence my suggestion it was how the Pact was sworn, ie:

CotF                       We swear it by Earth and water 

Men                       We swear it by Bronze and Iron

Together                We swear it by Ice and Fire

I love this insight. 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Yes, we really have no idea what the swords on the crown stood for, or for that matter, if they stood for anything.  

I line to the idea that the swords have no deep meaning. The reason for that is that, if there ever was a sword story, then it was Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn from Tad Williams. It is a story from the late 80s and if a sword story inspired GRRM, then it is this. It may simply be a reference or homage to that story. But when the swords have a deeper meaning we would need more old swords in our story. We have Lightbringer and Dawn.

GRRM could still pull it off and I always thought the valyrian steel swords were connected in Tad Williams style. And for me the reforging of ice was such a big deal. Whoever knows the books knows why. But for a deeper meaning the valyrian swords have to be connected to the Others or the CotF.  

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26 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Why haven't we discussed numerology more?  Some numbers such as 7 have obvious meaning, but we see it here with 9 and have talked before about 13.  I bet there is a lot of significance to these numbers.

The only thing I know it that the 7 is somehow connected to the 9 as in "2 of the 9 are dead and 1 is dying". Somewhere in the books there is a reference to this. 

 

edit: either that or it another homage, this time to lord of the rings.

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15 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Why haven't we discussed numerology more?  Some numbers such as 7 have obvious meaning, but we see it here with 9 and have talked before about 13.  I bet there is a lot of significance to these numbers.

Good question.  George really loves his prime numbers (3, 7,11, 13, 79) and primes as the building blocks of ALL numbers have special significance in religions and spiritual matters all over dating to the beginning of human existence, but nobody thinks that is important for some reason.

7 and 3 are particularly significant in Judaism and factor (heh) into many biblical end of days prophecies, but of course that has nothing to do with this story, right?  

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24 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Good question.  George really loves his prime numbers (3, 7,11, 13, 79) and primes as the building blocks of ALL numbers have special significance in religions and spiritual matters all over dating to the beginning of human existence, but nobody thinks that is important for some reason.

7 and 3 are particularly significant in Judaism and factor (heh) into many biblical end of days prophecies, but of course that has nothing to do with this story, right?  

Yes, the crystal of the seven breaks white light into 7 colors of the spectrum.  Isaac Newton linked these colors to musical notes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum

 

 

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I don't know anything about reading music;but the prime numbers relate to something called chord trees.  See Lydian chord pattern.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music_Theory/Complete_List_of_Chord_Patterns

This popped up when I googled GRRM and musical instruments:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/life/chicago.html

I guess he plays a typewriter.

 

 

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I honestly ask myself the question if the song is a synonym for anything other than harmony. Or if it is in any way related to Ainulindalë and that is all there is and all there will ever be. With a creator god and maybe an adversary that wants to disrupt the song. Not that it will ever be mentioned. It's literally the question about the tax policy of Aragorn. 

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14 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I honestly ask myself the question if the song is a synonym for anything other than harmony. Or if it is in any way related to Ainulindalë and that is all there is and all there will ever be. With a creator god and maybe an adversary that wants to disrupt the song. Not that it will ever be mentioned. It's literally the question about the tax policy of Aragorn. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

The streets grew emptier as they passed through a district given over to gloomy stone warehouses. Aggo went before her and Jhogo behind, leaving Ser Jorah Mormont at her side. Her bell rang softly, and Dany found her thoughts returning to the Palace of Dust once more, as the tongue returns to a space left by a missing tooth. Child of three, they had called her, daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire. So many threes. Three fires, three mounts to ride, three treasons. "The dragon has three heads," she sighed. "Do you know what that means, Jorah?"

 
Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon V

Reek was gone before the sun went down, carrying a bag of Stark silver and the last of Theon's hopes. Like as not, I'll never see the wretch again, he thought bitterly, but even so the chance had to be taken

.That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time . . . until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

Asha's own crew took up the cry. "ASHA! ASHA! ASHA QUEEN!" They stamped their feet and shook their fists and yelled, as the Damphair listened in disbelief. She would leave her father's work undone! Yet Tristifer Botley was shouting for her, with many Harlaws, some Goodbrothers, red-faced Lord Merlyn, more men than the priest would ever have believed . . . for a woman!

 

But others were holding their tongues, or muttering asides to their neighbors. "No craven's peace!" Ralf the Limper roared. Red Ralf Stonehouse swirled the Greyjoy banner and bellowed, "Victarion! VICTARION! VICTARION!" Men began to shove at one another. Someone flung a pinecone at Asha's head. When she ducked, her makeshift crown fell off. For a moment it seemed to the priest as if he stood atop a giant anthill, with a thousand ants in a boil at his feet. Shouts of "Asha!" and "Victarion!" surged back and forth, and it seemed as though some savage storm was about to engulf them all. The Storm God is amongst us, the priest thought, sowing fury and discord. 

Sharp as a swordthrust, the sound of a horn split the air.

 
 
chord1
noun
noun: chord; plural noun: chords
  1. 1.
    a group of (typically three or more) notes sounded together, as a basis of harmony.
    "the triumphal opening chords"
verb
verb: chord;
  1. 1.
    play, sing, or arrange notes in chords.
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