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Dawn’s Justice Ends the Long Night: The Night’s King in the Black Gate


Sly Wren

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On February 10, 2018 at 7:04 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

If you can find a weirwood grove of 13 id be super happy. Ive thought about doing a thread showing all the 13s cause there is alot and all connected it seems.

Oh--the 13 has to be there for a reason--the Last Hero story is clearly a key to ending the Long Night--as is the Night's King tale--the resurgence of the 13's has to be there to give us clues.

On February 10, 2018 at 7:04 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Idk what Aegon did yet involving the Wall but i know Harren the Black was ruling the Gods Eye while his brother was the Lord Commander at the Night Fort and Black Gate at the time.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne we know closed it. And according to Viserys I, they fought a war there with their dragons against mammoths, giants, and wildlings. 

Yes--I think it very likely they screwed helped set up the return of the Others by meddling with the Wall and the Nightfort. Don't know if you's seen this argument or not: but it might fit with some of your theories. 

The Targaryen relationship to Westeros and why they choose to conquer--could just be conquering and power. 

But there's also Davos's mention of the image of the Stranger in Aegon's Sept on Dragonstone: 

Quote

They were all afire now, Maid and Mother, Warrior and Smith, the Crone with her pearl eyes and the Father with his gilded beard; even the Stranger, carved to look more animal than human. Clash, Davos I

It's just one really, really brief mention. But nowhere else in the novels is the Stranger described as looking like an animal. And we have a fear of Wargs and skin changers in the novels--especially in the North. 

Makes me wonder if the Targs knew about the skin changing. About the potential power beyond the Wall. And feared it enough to have the Stranger look like an animal.

Might explain their willingness to mess with the Wall--and with the Gate.

On February 10, 2018 at 7:04 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Bael the Bard is sometime after Jaehaerys built his kingsroad. I think during the time of Jaehaerys. Alysanne i believe had a bastard child at Queens Crown (birthing imagery). And that child is Gael the Winter Child, the only child not born before 62ac. This is important cause Bael visited Winterfell, then 30 years later fought his son at the Wall. This would then be 92ac. The same time Rhaenys was passed over in the succession crisis of 92ac. 

It goes deeper. 

1. Any reason why you think she's a bastard child? 

2. I do think the idea that Bael and his "visit" to Winterfell is that recent is very intriguing. Would possibly fit with the idea others have raised that the pregnant woman Bran sees rising from the Winterfell pool is actually the Bael Maid, calling for a son to avenge her. 

On February 10, 2018 at 7:17 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

I did a thread once about the Grey King being one of two sons of Garth. 

A curse was placed on Garth's tomb that would make any who sought to equal him to become corpse like in appearance. Garth was High King before the Wall. Meaning he ruled the lands past the wall. This is key.

The Grey King activates said curse of his father by warring with his brother the Rock King. So the Salt King wanted to rule Rock and Salt. The War begins.

His children build the Wall and becomes the last Hero and future Night's King, Brandon the Builder. Who builds the wall and splits the land so that no one can rule all the kingdoms any more. Aerys II is missing the lands north of the Wall. 

Very interesting--and I'm completely on board with Brandon the Builder actually turning into the Night's King. I think he shifted his "power" given from the children. He went from defending and protecting to conquering and ruling at the Nightfort. 

I've also started wondering if that's why the Wall . . . grew. If maybe it didn't so much get "built" as rise in relation to what Brandon did. Breaking the land for the purpose of conquering, not protecting.

On February 10, 2018 at 7:17 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Since Brandon built the wall but the wall may predate him as stone. Im curious your thoughts on when The Black Gate was put in. Maybe by The Grey King who slew Ygg the pale demon tree that fed on human flesh? Which sounds like Garth, who fed on human flesh to ensure a bountiful harvest and would die every autumn to be reborn in the spring again.

That could work--I do think there's an excellent chance (as the OP says) that the Gate was made by a sacrifice. And I think a sacrifice of a warg/skinchanger. 

Gary does kinda sound like a reverse Other in that description--reborn in spring, where the Others are "reborn" in Winter.

As to when. . . oh boy. If I could pin all that down, I'd be a lot less restless waiting for the next books.

Lots of options: if the Wall did grow as a result of Brandon's "conquering" behavior as the Night's King, could be they put the Gate in to be able to "control" the magic of the land. Only certain people get passage. 

And as the link I gave you above about Alysanne argues, there's a good case to be made that some of the warging power and direwolves of the Starks were still around--until she closed the Nightfort.

So, seems like the Gate may have been the portal for all of that. A way to control it--an attempt to put a sword hilt on the magic of the land and warging.

Might even explain the fight between the Nightfort and Snowgate--a few people have speculated that Snowgate may have been a place to sacrifice Snows (bastard children) through their own gate--claiming power for themselves.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

It's just one really, really brief mention. But nowhere else in the novels is the Stranger described as looking like an animal. And we have a fear of Wargs and skin changers in the novels--especially in the North. 

This puts me in mind of Mirri Maaz Duur's blood ritual where Dany sees the shadows of the Great Wolf and the man limned in flame.  While she can see the shadow soul of the firey side (the Great Dragon); she can't see the shadow soul beneath the great wolf neither here nor in the HoU when she sees the king sitting on a throne with a wolf's head.  Melisandre has the same problem with hidden identity when she sees Bloodraven and Bran; the tree and the boy with a wolf's head.   

In other words, the Targs can't see beyond the shape that the warg takes; it's another form of mask.  Bran seems to confirm this when he says that 'they can't see him, but he can see them' in the tree-bran, Ghost-Jon encounter.

Melisandre does in fact see a face but dismisses it because it doesn't fit her image of the great other; that one should be more terrifying and so I think she has also seen Bran-Hodor but only sees the shape Bran takes.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams. The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.
The wooden face might also be Bran since he will go into the tree as well.

 

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

This puts me in mind of Mirri Maaz Duur's blood ritual where Dany sees the shadows of the Great Wolf and the man limned in flame.  While she can see the shadow soul of the firey side (the Great Dragon); she can't see the shadow soul beneath the great wolf neither here nor in the HoU when she sees the king sitting on a throne with a wolf's head.  Melisandre has the same problem with hidden identity when she sees Bloodraven and Bran; the tree and the boy with a wolf's head.   

In other words, the Targs can't see beyond the shape that the warg takes; it's another form of mask.

OOOOOHHHH!!!! I'm loving that catch/interpretation. Especially the point about Mel.

And it's great irony since they are "dragons"--as if their blindness is also tied to their need for conquering/domination.

And we see with Varamyr the horror of using skin changing abilities for domination.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran seems to confirm this when he says that 'they can't see him, but he can see them' in the tree-bran, Ghost-Jon encounter.

Nice! And Ghost-Jon thinks that Weirwood-Bran smells like death--thus, the Stranger. Hiding in a realm of death or second life gives wargs power the Targs might fear. 

Fits with @Voice's Warg-blocking thread.

Now I really want to read Daenys the Dreamer's journal--might also explain what Aegon was so set on conquering--fear.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Melisandre does in fact see a face but dismisses it because it doesn't fit her image of the great other; that one should be more terrifying and so I think she has also seen Bran-Hodor but only sees the shape Bran takes.

I like it. Perfect. 

Am wondering if it's possibly tied to the "song of the earth"--only if you can sing it can you understand it. Wargs can see each other. But the Targs aren't exactly skinchangers--their bond seems to be something else. Thus, they can only see so much???

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

The wooden face might also be Bran since he will go into the tree as well.

Agreed--though it does work really well as Bloodraven.

Either way, your point is spot on. Fabulous.

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24 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Correct... Jon is the sword of the morning... N+A=J

1. :cheers:

2. Agreed that he's of House Dayne--just really think there's a strong case that he's Lyanna's son. Even though it would probably be much more emotionally satisfying (for me at least) if Jon was Ned's.

3. Thus, for now, I'm thinking he's Arthur and Lyanna's. And Dany is Ashara's via Rhaegar.

4. But one way or another, both Arthur and Ashara's role in all of this, and House Dayne's role in general, has a lot more to be told.

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46 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Am wondering if it's possibly tied to the "song of the earth"--only if you can sing it can you understand it. Wargs can see each other. But the Targs aren't exactly skinchangers--their bond seems to be something else. Thus, they can only see so much???

Like can see like.  Wargs and skinchangers can recognize each other.  Bran can go further and see the soul of the rider, at least as tree-Bran. He touches Ghost and then talks to Jon.  

Targs seem to go through a transformation by spiritual fire:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

She is cleansed by a holy fire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-fire.html

The red lot also talks of the holy fire:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

The Volantene waved a hand. "In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen."

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"As you will." Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. "And now you."

His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. "He does have power here, my lord," the woman said. "And fire cleanses." At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."

Which leads me to believe that the fiery sword, the cleansing fire, is a dragon.  More specifically, a great dragon, one that contains the soul of the man limned in flame.

In Mirri's blood ritual, Martin hides the identity of the greenseer-warg behind the mask of the Great Wolf (a Stark) and he hides the shape of the man limned in flame from the reader or Dany would see the shape of a dragon (a Targ). 

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

1. :cheers:

2. Agreed that he's of House Dayne--just really think there's a strong case that he's Lyanna's son. Even though it would probably be much more emotionally satisfying (for me at least) if Jon was Ned's.

3. Thus, for now, I'm thinking he's Arthur and Lyanna's. And Dany is Ashara's via Rhaegar.

4. But one way or another, both Arthur and Ashara's role in all of this, and House Dayne's role in general, has a lot more to be told.

Jon is Ned 2.0. Both Ashara and Arthur are alive. Lemore is Ashara and Mance is Arthur

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  • 6 months later...
On February 17, 2018 at 3:56 PM, LynnS said:

Like can see like.  Wargs and skinchangers can recognize each other.  Bran can go further and see the soul of the rider, at least as tree-Bran. He touches Ghost and then talks to Jon.  

Targs seem to go through a transformation by spiritual fire:

I'm buying this--though we're still seeing Bran struggle with doing this not via dreaming.

And I agree on the spiritual fire--though it seems to be a very dangerous transformation--cracks that break the world.

On February 17, 2018 at 3:56 PM, LynnS said:

Which leads me to believe that the fiery sword, the cleansing fire, is a dragon.  More specifically, a great dragon, one that contains the soul of the man limned in flame.

Do you mean all fiery swords, or just the one we hear about via AA? I can buy the AA one being a "dragon"--and containing a soul. The whole Nissa Nissa story seems innately tied to trapping a living soul in the sword.

I currently crackpot think that Dawn has a "Soul" in it because it is made from transformed weirwood--like the black gate. But no way on earth can I insist this is more than a symbolic guess.

But it does seem to be a living flame, in some of the ways it's described.

On February 17, 2018 at 3:56 PM, LynnS said:

In Mirri's blood ritual, Martin hides the identity of the greenseer-warg behind the mask of the Great Wolf (a Stark) and he hides the shape of the man limned in flame from the reader or Dany would see the shape of a dragon (a Targ). 

I'm liking this idea--am wondering if it ties into the image of the Stranger in Aegon's sept on Dragonstone.

Davos says the Stranger statue has the face of an animal. Though no other accounts of the Stranger are described that way.

Makes me wonder if the Targs feared greenseer/warg/skinchangers from the start--and thus portrayed death as a skin changer.

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On February 17, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Jon is Ned 2.0.

Agreed. But Arya is also Lyanna 2.0--and not Lyanna's child. So, Jon can be very, very Ned-ly and still the nephew.

On February 17, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Both Ashara and Arthur are alive. Lemore is Ashara and Mance is Arthur

Mance as Arthur is really hard to buy--especially with Ned's guilt over Arthur (and not the other KG) and his hostility towards Mance. Ned's guilt really, really seems to tie to Arthur's being dead--same with taking the sword back--and the need for another Sword of the Morning to arise (per Martin's SSM).

Not to mention the image of the eyes blue as death right as Ned fights Arthur--really think that the Night's King killed the Day's King--and Winter began to rise.

As for Ashara--her being alive I can buy. But Lemore. . . really, really think someone should be mentioning her eyes. Those eyes are apparently really noticeable on Ashara. But not on Lemore. . . 

But I do think Ashara could be Quaithe--Dany can't see the color of Quaithe's eyes due to the mask, but can see tears and emotion that  we don't see from the other religious figures who seek people out--Mel doesn't seem that emotional about Stannis.

Not to mention Quaithe's starry mask. . . 

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

As for Ashara--her being alive I can buy. But Lemore. . . really, really think someone should be mentioning her eyes. Those eyes are apparently really noticeable on Ashara. But not on Lemore. .

'Scuse a quick hit-n-run post... there's a lot to chew on in this thread and it's late, gotta sleep on it.. but this about Ashara/Lemore, totally agree - I call it the 'eyes that didn't bark in the night' :thumbsup: I agree also that Ashara lives, but I'm looking in a different direction, although I haven't diligently worked it through yet... so I'll just chuck it in the water and see if it floats.

I lean towards R+L=J, not N+A.

I think H+A=M... oh, dear, unfortunate acronym. So quickly, Howland+Ashara=Meera, as in Meera was a not-stillborn daughter, born in 283, the same year Ashara disappeared. The implication is that Meera could be the Dayne Beyond the Wall. And the Daynes, being Dornish, have more respect for the female line. Which is to say, Jyana Reed is an assumed identity. If N+A is logistically possible, then so is H+A as N&H were together for much of the rebellion.

I'd been struggling with WHY Ashara might have gone off with Howland (in a plot-requirement sense) and it was this thread that gave me the impetus to see the connection to Meera (and I guess Jojen, too) possibly being the DbtW(s)

I've also struggled with why the Daynes and Starks seem to be on such good terms (after Ned kills Arthur, Ashara's 'suicide' etc) that they lend Jon a wetnurse, then name the new Lord Dayne after Ned :dunno: You'd expect a blood-feud if the 'conventional' story was true.

I'll be back - thanks for a fascinating thread so far :cheers:

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Scuse a quick hit-n-run post... there's a lot to chew on in this thread and it's late, gotta sleep on it.. but this about Ashara/Lemore, totally agree - I call it the 'eyes that didn't bark in the night' :thumbsup: I agree also that Ashara lives, but I'm looking in a different direction, although I haven't diligently worked it through yet... so I'll just chuck it in the water and see if it floats.

I lean towards R+L=J, not N+A.

I think H+A=M... oh, dear, unfortunate acronym. So quickly, Howland+Ashara=Meera, as in Meera was a not-stillborn daughter, born in 283, the same year Ashara disappeared. The implication is that Meera could be the Dayne Beyond the Wall. And the Daynes, being Dornish, have more respect for the female line. Which is to say, Jyana Reed is an assumed identity. If N+A is logistically possible, then so is H+A as N&H were together for much of the rebellion.

I'd been struggling with WHY Ashara might have gone off with Howland (in a plot-requirement sense) and it was this thread that gave me the impetus to see the connection to Meera (and I guess Jojen, too) possibly being the DbtW(s)

1. Amen re: Ashara

2. But--wouldn't the eyes situation potentially also work against Meera as her child? Not to mention the looks? Meera seems entirely crannog oriented. . . . 

3. Or are you seeing Dayne-ish traits in Meera? If so--please explain, because that would be cool.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I've also struggled with why the Daynes and Starks seem to be on such good terms (after Ned kills Arthur, Ashara's 'suicide' etc) that they lend Jon a wetnurse, then name the new Lord Dayne after Ned :dunno: You'd expect a blood-feud if the 'conventional' story was true.

Yup--and Martin named Edric in the appendices of Game and Clash. No other Martell bannermen are given full names--only houses--in the Game and Clash appendices. Martin intended for that kid to have that name years before the kid shows up in the books. And then draws a circle around his name with Arya's being startled by it.

Throw in Ned's grief over Arthur but not Hightower or Whent--something's up.

And with Ashara--I'm thinking more and more that the Dayne women are involved in choosing and bestowing Dawn on the choses Sword of the Morning. We even have the story of Just Maid to potentially back this up . . . 

Makes me wonder if Ashara will bestow it on Jon (really, really believe he's our next Sword of the Morning).

Or maybe it will be Allyria.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'll be back - thanks for a fascinating thread so far :cheers:

Thank you! :cheers:

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11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. But Arya is also Lyanna 2.0--and not Lyanna's child. So, Jon can be very, very Ned-ly and still the nephew.

Mance as Arthur is really hard to buy--especially with Ned's guilt over Arthur (and not the other KG) and his hostility towards Mance. Ned's guilt really, really seems to tie to Arthur's being dead--same with taking the sword back--and the need for another Sword of the Morning to arise (per Martin's SSM).

Not to mention the image of the eyes blue as death right as Ned fights Arthur--really think that the Night's King killed the Day's King--and Winter began to rise.

As for Ashara--her being alive I can buy. But Lemore. . . really, really think someone should be mentioning her eyes. Those eyes are apparently really noticeable on Ashara. But not on Lemore. . . 

But I do think Ashara could be Quaithe--Dany can't see the color of Quaithe's eyes due to the mask, but can see tears and emotion that  we don't see from the other religious figures who seek people out--Mel doesn't seem that emotional about Stannis.

Not to mention Quaithe's starry mask. . . 

I can see Ashara as quiathe but in regards to the next sword of the morning. The only “known Dayne” is edric and there’s no shot he’s the next sword of the morning way to young not even a knight yet so we can mark him off. I doubt It’s a Dayne from high hermitage aka darkstar...

Jon being Ashara’s son makes him part Dayne and he has all the qualities that the sword of the morning must possess. Also his chapters consistently reference the term Dawn. That being for his future battle for the Dawn and or for wielding Dawn. 

And your point about Arya is valid. But she has the same blood as Lyanna so it’s not shocking she’s very much like her aunt. Jon on the other is a legit copy of Ned from looks/personality/actions. 

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

2. But--wouldn't the eyes situation potentially also work against Meera as her child? Not to mention the looks? Meera seems entirely crannog oriented. . . . 

3. Or are you seeing Dayne-ish traits in Meera? If so--please explain, because that would be cool.

Yes, there is the awkwardness of Meera's looks, but I'm not sure that genetics in this world is always predictable. Someone made a thread long ago suggesting first-born Targs (for instance) often didn't have the blond hair/purple eye 'hallmark' of Targiness, so maybe something similar here :dunno: Or just maybe that crannog traits are dominant (or 'strong seed' as Jon Arryn would say), especially given that the 'frog-eating bog devils' are often described in magical terms.

Well, I hadn't seen any Dayne-ish traits prior to this thread, but your whole thrust re protectiveness regarding the SoM would gel with Meera, who seems to be the protector of their little party going north.

The whole crannogman phenomonen is piquing my interest now, and I'm about to go off trail again, in as much as I don't know where I'm going to end up...

  • The crannogs are all about hiding - no-one else can find Greywater Watch for instance
  • We haven't seen either Howland or Jyana yet; Howland specifically said to have not left his marshes for years
  • No-one has seen Ashara for about the same length of time - where better to hide than the quintessential Westerosi hiding place?
  • Martin says he has no Howland PoV because he 'knows too much' - this for a character that gets a whole 13 namechecks in the entire series!
  • Crannogmen are said to be close to the CotF and thier magics
  • There are no maesters at the Neck, and ravens are said to be unable to find Greywater too
  • Yet the ability to use ravens as messengers is closely linked to the magic of the CotF, so is there another, unstated reason why maesters are not welcome there?
  • Howland, Isle of Faces, Green Men, Harrenhal, KotL, Lyanna, Ashara, everyone all in one big melting pot :wideeyed:
Quote

"I thank you." Bran wondered if he would have to eat a frog to be polite. "I offer you the meat and mead of Winterfell." He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle. And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father's staunchest companions during the war for King Robert's crown, before Bran was born.

 

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And with Ashara--I'm thinking more and more that the Dayne women are involved in choosing and bestowing Dawn on the choses Sword of the Morning. We even have the story of Just Maid to potentially back this up . . . 

It does seem to be likely, a sort of Lady of the Lake role. Dawn does have some very Excalibur-ish symbolism: it was 'drawn from a stone', wielded by a great Arthur, returned to a Lady after Arthur's death, granted only to 'the worthy'.

Throw in Lightbringer to the mix, well both that and Excalibur are said to glow in battle, and what 'brings light' if not the Dawn?

So, yeah, the Dayne women seem almost destined to be the guardians of Dawn. And another phrase of Excalibur-lore comes to mind: "The scabbard is worth ten of the blade" - if that's not a physiological reference, I don't know what is ;)

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14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Do you mean all fiery swords, or just the one we hear about via AA? I can buy the AA one being a "dragon"--and containing a soul. The whole Nissa Nissa story seems innately tied to trapping a living soul in the sword.

I currently crackpot think that Dawn has a "Soul" in it because it is made from transformed weirwood--like the black gate. But no way on earth can I insist this is more than a symbolic guess.

But it does seem to be a living flame, in some of the ways it's described.

Specifically, I'm thinking of Dany's 'wake the dragon' dream where she is transformed by spiritual fire, the cleansing fire that Mel talks about. She is consumed and transformed by the fire of the great 'singing' dragon and I think this ties into the Nissa Nissa story of being pierced in the the heart by a firey sword.

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3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

I can see Ashara as quiathe but in regards to the next sword of the morning. The only “known Dayne” is edric and there’s no shot he’s the next sword of the morning way to young not even a knight yet so we can mark him off. I doubt It’s a Dayne from high hermitage aka darkstar...

Jon being Ashara’s son makes him part Dayne and he has all the qualities that the sword of the morning must possess. Also his chapters consistently reference the term Dawn. That being for his future battle for the Dawn and or for wielding Dawn. 

Agreed--not only is Ned Dayne too young, but Martin had him planned out years before he put Dayne, Jr. in the novels--Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall is the only Martell bannerman listed by name in get Game and Clash appendices. Martin's made that kid young on purpose: he's not the next Sword of the Morning.

And I agree that Jon's being Ashara's would likely make him eligible for Dawn--that said, I strongly suspect that Ned isn't Jon's father. . . though that would absolutely be the most satisfying for me.

3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

And your point about Arya is valid. But she has the same blood as Lyanna so it’s not shocking she’s very much like her aunt. Jon on the other is a legit copy of Ned from looks/personality/actions. 

True--but Arya, according to Ned and Harwin, looks and acts like Lyanna. Has her personality.

And Jon longs for his father's true greatsword to give him the family name--Ice wouldn't do that. Dawn would--fits better if Arthur is Jon's father. . . 

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yes, there is the awkwardness of Meera's looks, but I'm not sure that genetics in this world is always predictable.

Absolutely true. Just seems like we'd get some hint re: Ashara. . . . 

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, I hadn't seen any Dayne-ish traits prior to this thread, but your whole thrust re protectiveness regarding the SoM would gel with Meera, who seems to be the protector of their little party going north.

I like this! Though if protectiveness is the only marker of Dayne-ish-ness, we've got a really wide field.

But I'm thinking more and more that Dunk gives us info on Arthur Dayne--the falling star stuff really seems like a marker. And the protector trying to care for the leader/future leader. . . . yes, that fits Dunk, Arthur, and Meera. . . 

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

The whole crannogman phenomonen is piquing my interest now, and I'm about to go off trail again, in as much as I don't know where I'm going to end up...

I can't follow you on all of this. . . yet. Will give it another go if you get a chance to flesh it out.

But the crannogmen are fascinating--I agree that something's up with them. 

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It does seem to be likely, a sort of Lady of the Lake role. Dawn does have some very Excalibur-ish symbolism: it was 'drawn from a stone', wielded by a great Arthur, returned to a Lady after Arthur's death, granted only to 'the worthy'.

Throw in Lightbringer to the mix, well both that and Excalibur are said to glow in battle, and what 'brings light' if not the Dawn?

:agree:

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

So, yeah, the Dayne women seem almost destined to be the guardians of Dawn. And another phrase of Excalibur-lore comes to mind: "The scabbard is worth ten of the blade" - if that's not a physiological reference, I don't know what is ;)

Bravo, ser!

Though the blade in this case seems to have a fair amount of worth--Martin said Barristan and Arthur were evenly matched as swordsmen--unless Arthur had Dawn. And Just Maid apparently was very powerful.

Makes me think that Brandon the Builder may have been Bran the Bloody Blade, wielding Dawn "unjustly" against foes he shouldn't have. Thus precipitating the Battle for the Dawn--when his "brother" took Dawn from him. . . .

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52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, I'm thinking of Dany's 'wake the dragon' dream where she is transformed by spiritual fire, the cleansing fire that Mel talks about. She is consumed and transformed by the fire of the great 'singing' dragon and I think this ties into the Nissa Nissa story of being pierced in the the heart by a firey sword.

I like this. 

And potentially presents Dany's transformation into the dragon as a sacrifice of self. Of the Nissa Nissa in herself.

And thus potentially becoming abominable--though that interp stems from my belief that the Nissa Nissa story and Mel's cleansing fires are abominations. Powerful, but abominable. Like Varamyr's misuse of his skin changing abilities.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

I like this. 

And potentially presents Dany's transformation into the dragon as a sacrifice of self. Of the Nissa Nissa in herself.

And thus potentially becoming abominable--though that interp stems from my belief that the Nissa Nissa story and Mel's cleansing fires are abominations. Powerful, but abominable. Like Varamyr's misuse of his skin changing abilities.

Yes, this in particular.  There is another part of the legend where AA slays a beast and his sword was never cold after that point.  I can't access A search of ice and fire anymore (pc problems, ugh);  but the description of the beast sloughing off it's skins and it's eyes melting mirrors the description of Dany's transformation in the dragon dream.  They are virtually the same.    So AA's beloved may well have been a great dragon containing the soul of Nissa Nissa.   This I think is the third attempt to forge the red sword.  The first being forged in water, possibly Euron is attempting it.  You can see this in the released chapters for Aeron Damphair.  The second attempt.. in the heart of a lion (or king), sounds like kings' blood.  This could be Jon.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, this in particular.  There is another part of the legend where AA slays a beast and his sword was never cold after that point.  I can't access A search of ice and fire anymore (pc problems, ugh);  but the description of the beast sloughing off it's skins and it's eyes melting mirrors the description of Dany's transformation in the dragon dream.  They are virtually the same.    So AA's beloved may well have been a great dragon containing the soul of Nissa Nissa.   This I think is the third attempt to forge the red sword.  The first being forged in water, possibly Euron is attempting it.  You can see this in the released chapters for Aeron Damphair.  The second attempt.. in the heart of a lion (or king), sounds like kings' blood.  This could be Jon.

I've gotten myself lost thinking about this, but here's a list of ingredients:

-Jaime has part of reforged Ice

-Ice may be paired with Dawn/may be Dawn/ may have once been Dawn

-Cersei is symbolically a lion, and she's a beloved

But where's the water? Does that make Jaime AA? Does that make Brienne AA and Jamie NissaNissa (since she also has a reforged Ice and Jaime is a lion that she loves)?

I think I just made it worse in my brain :(

 

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