Dawn’s Justice Ends the Long Night: The Night’s King in the Black Gate

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, dmfn said:

I've gotten myself lost thinking about this, but here's a list of ingredients:

-Jaime has part of reforged Ice

-Ice may be paired with Dawn/may be Dawn/ may have once been Dawn

-Cersei is symbolically a lion, and she's a beloved

But where's the water? Does that make Jaime AA? Does that make Brienne AA and Jamie NissaNissa (since she also has a reforged Ice and Jaime is a lion that she loves)?

I think I just made it worse in my brain

 

Well there are swords and then there are swords.  Doubtless, these actual hero swords have a special significance.  But I am referring to the one who wields the sword; who is also a sword.  The words of the Night's Watch:  I am the sword, the horn, the shield... etc. To understand what I mean about forging a 'sword' in water; you would have to read the Foresaken Chapter, one of the pre-released TWOW pov's.  Which we are not permitted to discuss openly.  LOL.

Frey Family Reunion has an interesting take on just how Jon may become a 'broken sword':

In any case, I don't think we are talking about just one 'sword'.  As for Cersei, there does seem to be some foreshadowing in one of her later valonqar dreams that she does take a blade to the heart. 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

Dawn was breaking over King's Landing when they climbed from the tub. The queen's skin was white and wrinkled from her long immersion. "Stay with me," she told Taena. "I do not want to sleep alone." She even said a prayer before she crawled beneath her coverlet, beseeching the Mother for sweet dreams.

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

 

The immediate association for 'lion' is that it refers to a Lannister.  But the lion is also a symbol of royalty and it's king's blood that has power.  So forging a sword in the heart of a lion could also mean someone with royal blood, not necessarily a Lannister.  But I do in fact think that Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion will have strange and significant roles to play. 

 

[Sly Wren]

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, this in particular.  There is another part of the legend where AA slays a beast and his sword was never cold after that point.  I can't access A search of ice and fire anymore (pc problems, ugh);  but the description of the beast sloughing off it's skins and it's eyes melting mirrors the description of Dany's transformation in the dragon dream.  They are virtually the same.   

Yes--this is one of the things that makes me think Valyrian steel will be used to ultimately slay Drogon--my current thinking is that it will be Brienne with Oathkeeper: finally killing the dragon and ending the Targ dragon madness in a way Jaime only got started.

On the bolded--I'm right there with you: can't get onto TLH. Good luck with the pc.

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

So AA's beloved may well have been a great dragon containing the soul of Nissa Nissa. 

Wait--are you thinking AA first sacrificed his beloved to wake a dragon? 

I don't want to go too far out on the tangent my brain has started on with this point until I know where you are going--but this could be cool.

On September 7, 2018 at 10:38 AM, LynnS said:

The first being forged in water, possibly Euron is attempting it.  You can see this in the released chapters for Aeron Damphair.  The second attempt.. in the heart of a lion (or king), sounds like kings' blood.  This could be Jon.

So, are you thinking the sword has to be continually reforged? Or new ones have to be reforged for power? I could see that if the power of the weirder was tied to the sword.

Whereas for Dawn--the sword's endures, but only thrives when a worthy wielder takes it?

This makes it seem like AA's sword is a weaker version of the pale flame Dawn.

But I have serious Dawn prejudice, so I may be going off on a tangent regardless.

21 hours ago, dmfn said:

Ice may be paired with Dawn/may be Dawn/ may have once been Dawn

Close--I think Ice was either what Dawn became when the Night's King went "wrong"--thus his brother had to take it from him.

Or Dawn was originally an Other sword--transformed into Dawn.

But I could easily be wrong here.

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Wait--are you thinking AA first sacrificed his beloved to wake a dragon? 

I don't want to go too far out on the tangent my brain has started on with this point until I know where you are going--but this could be cool.

I think dragon eggs become soul containers in the same way that wargs and skinchangers can have a second life.  Targs end up in their eggs and I think this is where the great dragon comes into play.  Waking the dragon is waking the soul or resurrecting the soul within the dragon.  I believe this has happened with Drogon and Rhaegar's soul is contained in the egg.  Drogon is Balerion 'come again'.  Balerion is one of the three targ dragon gods.  The answer to the riddle of the (valyrian) sphinx - a dragon with the head of a man or woman.   This passage in particular is odd for the memory it contains.  It's not Dany's memory; she is just a passenger:
 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

So I think at some point Dany will be that third major reveal that D&D talk about. Although it will involve her death and second life as Drogon and yes the dragon must be slain to create the hero sword of legend.  Not forgetting that dragons can change gender.  LOL  So I think this is the meaning of the Nissa Nissa story as far as forging one sword goes. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

So, are you thinking the sword has to be continually reforged? Or new ones have to be reforged for power? I could see that if the power of the weirder was tied to the sword.

Whereas for Dawn--the sword's endures, but only thrives when a worthy wielder takes it?

This makes it seem like AA's sword is a weaker version of the pale flame Dawn.

But I have serious Dawn prejudice, so I may be going off on a tangent regardless.

I think there will be different attempts to make a sword involving sacrifice or death.  I don't think the story of AA attempting to forge the sword three times can be taken literally.  I think Euron will attempt to make himself into AA (going by the Forsaken Chapter) by forging a sword in water and sacrificing holy blood.  Jon seems to be another candidate for forged sword sword using king's blood or the heart of a lion and Dany is the third sacrifice following the Nissa/Great Dragon story.

I'm not sure what will happen with the Dawn sword.  But I agree that it will end up with Brienne as the only worthy knight who can claim it.  

To elaborate on Euron:

Spoiler

The Forsaken chapter tells us that he will sacrifice his salt wife and unborn child along with his brother by binding them to the prow of his ship.  He has been collecting 'holy blood' - those who serve various religions including his brother.  This mirrors Mirri Maaz Duur's ritual in some aspects, she is the one sacrificed for her holy blood being a godswife causing a dragon to burst from her brow.  Dany is also sacrificed along with her unborn son.  Drogo is a failed sword but part of the ritual involved water and blood.

 

[Rufus Snow]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what will happen with the Dawn sword.  But I agree that it will end up with Brienne as the only worthy knight who can claim it.

Ooh..... ever had one of those moments when something clicks and you wonder why you never ever saw it before?

I've had the bits floating around for a while, but they finally settled into a pattern. Brienne is Parsifal/Galahad, isn't she? And I think a dragon-slayer, to boot.

Yep: Galladon, Just Maid, dragonslayer, Evenstar=Morning Star, falling stars on shields, fool's quest to the Whispers, "The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?", Florian and Jonquil and Tanselle's dragon...

Thank you, @LynnS I feel like someone who bought a jigsaw in a plastic bag, and you've just turned up with the lid

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ooh..... ever had one of those moments when something clicks and you wonder why you never ever saw it before?

I've had the bits floating around for a while, but they finally settled into a pattern. Brienne is Parsifal/Galahad, isn't she? And I think a dragon-slayer, to boot.

Yep: Galladon, Just Maid, dragonslayer, Evenstar=Morning Star, falling stars on shields, fool's quest to the Whispers, "The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?", Florian and Jonquil and Tanselle's dragon...

Thank you, @LynnS I feel like someone who bought a jigsaw in a plastic bag, and you've just turned up with the lid

LOL!  I like all those bits as well. I just can't imagine it being anyone else.  "Let the wicked tremble!"

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or Dawn was originally an Other sword--transformed into Dawn.

I think the Dawn sword is the last hero's sword.  The legendary sword that was given to the LH by the CotF.  Have you considered that the BIG Secret about the ToJ is that it was Howland Reed who killed Arthur Dayne rather than Ned.   I think this is the secret to which GRRM alludes. Yes, Howland does know what happened at the ToJ.  Ser Arthur was never going to be the LH and so the sword must pass to someone else and this can only be contrived through Arthur's death. 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think there will be different attempts to make a sword involving sacrifice or death.  I don't think the story of AA attempting to forge the sword three times can be taken literally.

This I can buy--especially if the sword forged is . . . not exactly reputable. At least that's my take on the sword described in the story. 

And I do think that the story is possibly the basis for Valyrian steel--since it involves spell, seems like it might involve unpleasantness, too.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jon seems to be another candidate for forged sword sword using king's blood or the heart of a lion and Dany is the third sacrifice following the Nissa/Great Dragon story.

Okay--I think I can follow you--so, are you thinking they are all forging the sword/contributing to the rise of the weapon to defeat darkness, but don't know they are working in tandem? Or did I miss your point completely, as is my wont?

But a HUGE AMEN!!! on Euron

that sacrifice isn't just cruelty. The creepy collecting of people, too. Euron's engaged in ritualized, mystic behavior, clear as day. I'm loving the tie between him and AA.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what will happen with the Dawn sword.  But I agree that it will end up with Brienne as the only worthy knight who can claim it.  

Worthy? Yes. But not a Dayne--so, this is a problem per the SSM and the World Book.

But I absolutely think she and Dunk show us what a worthy knight is--thus explaining their Dayne/Sword of the Morning imagery.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I've had the bits floating around for a while, but they finally settled into a pattern. Brienne is Parsifal/Galahad, isn't she? And I think a dragon-slayer, to boot.

Absolutely--though I think the sword she will use is Oathbreaker.

Unless GRRM has a twist coming with who gets Dawn--which is absolutely possible--so far he's made it very clear it's always a Dayne.

But she, like Dunk, is clearly the worthy knight--an important point to make in series so frequently focused on knightly failings.

 

 

[Sly Wren]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the Dawn sword is the last hero's sword.  The legendary sword that was given to the LH by the CotF. 

Yup!!! Like the story of Just Maid, only with children, not maidens.

And I think the Last Hero/Brandon messed up and misused the sword--possbly becoming Brandon the Bloody Blade.

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Have you considered that the BIG Secret about the ToJ is that it was Howland Reed who killed Arthur Dayne rather than Ned.   I think this is the secret to which GRRM alludes. Yes, Howland does know what happened at the ToJ.  Ser Arthur was never going to be the LH and so the sword must pass to someone else and this can only be contrived through Arthur's death. 

So, that would make Howland the Night's King killing the Day's King? 

Or do you think that's not the point at all, and it was just a narrative point to get the sword to someone else?

I do think Arthur couldn't be the LH, not as long as he was in service to the Dragon (dominance, conquering--not really conducive to the song of the earth). Any more than Dunk could have been had he been a Dayne--serving Egg eventually went horribly wrong.

Also, are you assuming Howland killed Arthur for the express purpose of getting the sword from him, or am I reading to much into your phrasing.

If so, what makes you think so? 

I obviously buy into the Day's King vs. Night's King thing--as shown by this thread. And admit I have blinders on--I really think that's why we see "blue as the eyes of death" as Ned starts fighting Arthur.

So, what are you seeing that I'm missing through my Dawn-based blinders? 

[Rufus Snow]

13 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Unless GRRM has a twist coming with who gets Dawn--which is absolutely possible--so far he's made it very clear it's always a Dayne.

Yeah, I think that's fair. I've been looking at House Tarth a bit tonight, and the connection to Dunk the Lunk, as to whether he may or may not be an ancestor. To my mind it's looking possible, but I haven't gone through his story quite so much yet. Another hint is there may be some Targiness amongst the Tarthiness. Depending on how recently that may have come about, there's a possible Dayne link through Queen Dyanna Dayne - Egg's mother

[Rufus Snow]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the Dawn sword is the last hero's sword.  The legendary sword that was given to the LH by the CotF. 

Yup!!! Like the story of Just Maid, only with children, not maidens.

And I think the Last Hero/Brandon messed up and misused the sword--possbly becoming Brandon the Bloody Blade.

Ah, I like the implication there: 'the Maid' being a Sevener gloss on the original, pre-Andal story perhaps? The Faith couldn't countenance a 'Ser' Galladon (debatable title, there as well) receiving his magic sword from CotF.

 

 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yup!!! Like the story of Just Maid, only with children, not maidens.

And I think the Last Hero/Brandon messed up and misused the sword--possbly becoming Brandon the Bloody Blade.

So, that would make Howland the Night's King killing the Day's King? 

Or do you think that's not the point at all, and it was just a narrative point to get the sword to someone else?

I do think Arthur couldn't be the LH, not as long as he was in service to the Dragon (dominance, conquering--not really conducive to the song of the earth). Any more than Dunk could have been had he been a Dayne--serving Egg eventually went horribly wrong.

Also, are you assuming Howland killed Arthur for the express purpose of getting the sword from him, or am I reading to much into your phrasing.

If so, what makes you think so? 

I obviously buy into the Day's King vs. Night's King thing--as shown by this thread. And admit I have blinders on--I really think that's why we see "blue as the eyes of death" as Ned starts fighting Arthur.

So, what are you seeing that I'm missing through my Dawn-based blinders? 

Howland is an agent of the old gods and the Daynes are the caretakers of the sword.  I think Howland's purpose is to ensure that Ned lives (producing the necessary offspring) and that the sword is passed on to someone, not yet defined.  I don't think of it in terms of the nights king.  I also think that Howland has already made an appearance in the book in association with Brienne as Septon Meribald (who has feet like gnarled tree roots).   He leads her across the saltpans along the Path of the Faithful.  This is a skill described to us as 'walking on leaves' by Meera Reed.  Meaning that Howland is able to find the safest path through treacherous terrain.   Leaves disguise mud sinks and quick sand.  It's also possible that messages can only be sent to Howland by accessing the wandering septon network, possibly through the Quiet Isle, conveniently located near the God's Eye.   It also seems that Septon Meribald has been elevated to the position of High Septon and it's from him that I think we are given the words of House Dayne:  "Let the Wicked Tremble".   I think that the swords and the stars gathered by Howland will coalesce around the one who can claim the Dawn Sword.

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yeah, I think that's fair. I've been looking at House Tarth a bit tonight, and the connection to Dunk the Lunk, as to whether he may or may not be an ancestor. To my mind it's looking possible, but I haven't gone through his story quite so much yet. Another hint is there may be some Targiness amongst the Tarthiness. Depending on how recently that may have come about, there's a possible Dayne link through Queen Dyanna Dayne - Egg's mother

My current take on Brienne and Dunk--subject to change at any moment--is that they are used in part to show what a "worthy" knight is. That why they both have the starry Dayne imagery. Neither is "actually" a knight for a long time. Dunk makes himself into a knight--via worthiness.

But it would be interesting if Dunk ended up being tied to the Daynes. But for now, seems like the symbolic tie is there to tell us about Arthurr--like Mance's red cloak and Bael fixation are there as markers because Mance tells us about Rhaegar.

I think.

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ah, I like the implication there: 'the Maid' being a Sevener gloss on the original, pre-Andal story perhaps? The Faith couldn't countenance a 'Ser' Galladon (debatable title, there as well) receiving his magic sword from CotF.

Yup!

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Howland is an agent of the old gods and the Daynes are the caretakers of the sword.  I think Howland's purpose is to ensure that Ned lives (producing the necessary offspring) and that the sword is passed on to someone, not yet defined. 

Even though this would undermine the entire premise of my argument, I'd kind of like this to be true.

One thing that bugs me in this story is the concept of magical bloodlines, worth via blood, etc. I know it's a common trope, but I'd prefer things to work on merit and hard work. total personal prejudice on my part.

If the above were true, then the sword would not be tied to a bloodline. Which would be awesome.

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think of it in terms of the nights king.

Given Nan's story, are you thinking the tale of the Night's King is . . .just a story? Non instructive? I've always read it as instructive about the past. . . . 

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I also think that Howland has already made an appearance in the book in association with Brienne as Septon Meribald (who has feet like gnarled tree roots).   He leads her across the saltpans along the Path of the Faithful.  This is a skill described to us as 'walking on leaves' by Meera Reed.  Meaning that Howland is able to find the safest path through treacherous terrain.   Leaves disguise mud sinks and quick sand.

That would be cool--but any reason why a normal person can't do something like the path of the faithful?

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's also possible that messages can only be sent to Howland by accessing the wandering septon network, possibly through the Quiet Isle, conveniently located near the God's Eye.   It also seems that Septon Meribald has been elevated to the position of High Septon and it's from him that I think we are given the words of House Dayne:  "Let the Wicked Tremble".

1. This would be cool--I need to do a reread of those sections--though Meribald is 6 feet tall. . . . 

2. How long has Meribald been on the isle? Seems like he would have had to leave the Neck long before Meera and Jojen went to Bran--are you thinking he's been away from his family this entire time?

3. Why those words for the Daynes, do you think?

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think that the swords and the stars gathered by Howland will coalesce around the one who can claim the Dawn Sword.

It would be kind of cool if the Daynes turn out to only be stewards of the sword. 

I doubt it, given how they let a member of the house wield it for worthiness.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Even though this would undermine the entire premise of my argument, I'd kind of like this to be true.

One thing that bugs me in this story is the concept of magical bloodlines, worth via blood, etc. I know it's a common trope, but I'd prefer things to work on merit and hard work. total personal prejudice on my part.

If the above were true, then the sword would not be tied to a bloodline. Which would be awesome.

I think it's still the sword of justice.  I'm just not clear who will deal out the justice.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Given Nan's story, are you thinking the tale of the Night's King is . . .just a story? Non instructive? I've always read it as instructive about the past. . . . 

I think if anyone takes up that role, it will be Jon.  Nan's stories seem to have meaning in a different context.  For example when Bran says that all crows are liars; she agrees with him.  Then we get another context for crow from Mormont:

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

 

Basically, Mormont is saying that all the men of the Nights Watch are liars. So it seems to me that Nan is talking about the crows of the Nights Watch and not the crow of Bran's dreams (although they might be the same).

There is another passage where Jon contemplates his future as a fugitive, an oathbreaker, a condemned man after running from the Watch:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

 

 

Strip away the fantasy surrounding the legend of the Nights King and find a kernel of truth.  Jon would be a man who dares not speak his true name who can only aid his brother in secret

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

1. This would be cool--I need to do a reread of those sections--though Meribald is 6 feet tall. . . . 

2. How long has Meribald been on the isle? Seems like he would have had to leave the Neck long before Meera and Jojen went to Bran--are you thinking he's been away from his family this entire time?

3. Why those words for the Daynes, do you think?

Yes, I've just checked.  He is 6 feet tall.  So not Howland then.  However, the High Sparrow is rather short.   I'm thinking that Martin won't give up Howland Reed just for the purpose of exposition and if he has a role to play; then I suspect that he has already been seeded into the story.  Robb cannot contact Howland directly or find Greywater Watch.  But he knows a way.  It seems to me that a message can be sent to the Quiet Isle to wait for Howland to stop there or someone like Meribald to pass it along.

I think Howland has a role to play concerning the Dawn sword in some way mustering the forces to combat the enemy when it shows up.       

 

 

 

[Rufus Snow]

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I've just checked.  He is 6 feet tall.  So not Howland then.  However, the High Sparrow is rather short.   I'm thinking that Martin won't give up Howland Reed just for the purpose of exposition and if he has a role to play; then I suspect that he has already been seeded into the story.  Robb cannot contact Howland directly or find Greywater Watch.  But he knows a way.  It seems to me that a message can be sent to the Quiet Isle to wait for Howland to stop there or someone like Meribald to pass it along.

I think Howland has a role to play concerning the Dawn sword in some way mustering the forces to combat the enemy when it shows up.  

I would be veeerrryy disappointed if Howland is the High Sparrow, or anyone in the Faith. I have him pegged as a champion of the Old Gods - to the best of our knowledge he's the only living person to have visited the Green Men. I agree he has a role to play, but that doesn't need him to be anywhere else but hiding in Greywater IMHO.

I know he's not a greenseer, but for some reason this idea of him gathering forces makes me think of the way the greenseers in the Dawn Age could "call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more."

But of course, me wanting it to be so doesn't make it the way the George is going to do it

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's still the sword of justice.  I'm just not clear who will deal out the justice.

All fair--though my money is on Jon: Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. Game, Bran I

That opening execution scene at dawn, right after the prologue showing the return of the Others--it feels like a marker. And Jon's the one, other than Ned, who really seems to understand the importance and gravity.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think if anyone takes up that role, it will be Jon. 

In a sense, he already has by being knifed. Am wondering if the Night's King can learn to be the Day's King then. . . 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Strip away the fantasy surrounding the legend of the Nights King and find a kernel of truth.  Jon would be a man who dares not speak his true name who can only aid his brother in secret

I'm loving this.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking that Martin won't give up Howland Reed just for the purpose of exposition and if he has a role to play; then I suspect that he has already been seeded into the story. 

I really hope the bolded is the case. The expositional scene of Lysa at the Moon Door was really important to the plot and (I think) had a lot of symbolism in it--but it was not a good read.

Hopefully, whatever Howland has to offer, if he gets a scene, it will be better than Lysa's.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

But he knows a way.  It seems to me that a message can be sent to the Quiet Isle to wait for Howland to stop there or someone like Meribald to pass it along.

One way or another, Martin does need to explain how people contact Howland. . . 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Howland has a role to play concerning the Dawn sword in some way mustering the forces to combat the enemy when it shows up.   

Yes--I've waffled on this myself.

Right now, I'm coming back to Just Maid and thinking that the women of House Dayne have a key role in bestowing the sword.

But I've wondered, too, if Howland has a connection. Martin says Dawn's at Starfall--unequivocally. So--it's there.

But if Howland is an agent of the old gods--now we need to know if the Daynes are tied to the old gods, too. My money is on yes--so, perhaps he can communicate with them. . . 

We really need the next book.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I know he's not a greenseer, but for some reason this idea of him gathering forces makes me think of the way the greenseers in the Dawn Age could "call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more."

Like Radagast and Gandalf in one go?

[Rufus Snow]

24 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Like Radagast and Gandalf in one go?

something like that. And you know Ser Bonifer Hasty sounds like someone ents wouldn't approve of, and he's currently garrisoning Harrenhal.... no, I need to stop the Tolkien parallels before it goes too far,,,,, hmm, hobbitses, crannogmen, hmm....

 

24 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, Martin does need to explain how people contact Howland. . . 

Slowly I guess, if Robb's method is any measure:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

"Nor would I ask it of you. The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession. My lord, I need two of your longships to sail around the Cape of Eagles and up the Neck to Greywater Watch."

Lord Jason hesitated. "A dozen streams drain the wetwood, all shallow, silty, and uncharted. I would not even call them rivers. The channels are ever drifting and changing. There are endless sandbars, deadfalls, and tangles of rotting trees. And Greywater Watch moves. How are my ships to find it?"

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore." He tapped a finger on the map. "Moat Cailin is the key. Lord Balon knew that, which is why he sent his brother Victarion there with the hard heart of the Greyjoy strength."

 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

And you know Ser Bonifer Hasty sounds like someone ents wouldn't approve of, and he's currently garrisoning Harrenhal....

Well done, ser.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Slowly I guess, if Robb's method is any measure:

Ah! I had completely forgotten the passage.

So, it seems that Howland insists you come to him--which make it sound like he stays in Greywater Watch.

This might put an end to my desire for Howland to deliver Dawn. . . 

[Rufus Snow]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ah! I had completely forgotten the passage.

This is why it takes a village to raise a child interpret a text....