Jump to content
Sly Wren

Dawn’s Justice Ends the Long Night: The Night’s King in the Black Gate

Recommended Posts

 

DAWN'S JUSTICE ENDS THE LONG NIGHT:

THE NIGHT'S KING IN THE BLACK GATE 

 [Dawn] was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight. Storm, Bran IV

The morning had dawned clear and cold [. . .]. This was the first time he had been deemed old enough [. . .] to see the king's justice done. Game, Bran I

Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. Game, Bran I

VERY SHORT VERSION:

1. The Black Gate is the fearless Night’s King’s heart tree and Dawn was his weirwood sword—metaphorically “forged from the heart of a fallen star[k].”

2. That’s why milkglass Dawn is alive with light like the milky Black Gate. Taken from the Night’s King in the “Battle for the Dawn.”

3. But where Ned executes oathbreakers himself, the Night’s King’s brothers put him into his heart tree, entombing him alive in the Wall—like the 79 Sentinels.

4. The Night’s King was very likely a warg and/or an Other—thus “fearless.” This made his sacrifice to his heart tree VERY different—he lives on in a living, growing Wall.

5. Just as Ned Stark justly executes oathbreakers, the Sword of the Morning (Jon) must end the fearless Night’s King, once and for all. With Dawn—administering justice, not vengeance, greed, or dominance.

6. Dawn brings justice. Restoring the natural cycles of night and day, life and death.

Set up and Shout Outs:

Shout out to @ravenous reader for staring me on looking for this here. 

I first posted a version of this argument here. My thanks to those who commented and helped make it better (I think).

A lot of these ideas build off of @Voicetheory about fallen Star[k]s and swords. 

Big shout-outs to @DarkSister1001, @Lady Dyanna, @LmL, @Lady Barbrey and everyone else for the ideas they put into my “Jon’s the Sword of the Morning” threads.

@Voice and @LmL asserted that Dawn could be a weirwood sword long before I did.

I think @Black Crow (or someone on Heresy) has argued something akin to the idea that the Night’s King was sacrificed to/turned into the Black Gate, but I could not find the posts. If you’ve argued this, just tell me so and I’ll cite it here.

And I believe @Black Crow has also argued that the Night’s King became an Other.

Thus: The following arguments are largely derived from a group effort. My apologies to anyone I’ve forgotten to mention. Remind me and I’ll amend this section ASAP.

Disclaimer: I do not assert that posters listed above agree with the following arguments. They are not responsible for my madness.

PART I: DAWN AND THE HEART OF A FALLEN STAR: WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS SWORD?

1. Dawn is completely unique and as sharp and strong as Valyrian steel.

It looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. World Book: Dorne: The Andals Arrive.

2. Ned tells Bran that Dawn was “forged from the “heart of a fallen star.” Clash, Bran III

3. Ned’s dream tells us that Dawn is “pale as milkglass, alive with light.” Game, Eddard X

4. Dawn makes its wielder a better fighter. When asked, “Who would win in a fight, Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne (in their best days)?” Martin answered, “Dayne. . . if he was armed with Dawn. If both men had equivalent weaponry, it might be a toss-up.” SSM

5. And the Daynes are very choosey about whom they give Dawn. A Dayne must earn it.

“George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” SSM

6. So, that’s it, right? Dawn glows white, is really sharp and strong. It improves its wielder and the family only bestows it on one who’s worthy.

7. No: Dawn was “forged from the heart of a fallen star.” And in Martinlandia, “fallen stars” burn like fires.

PART II: COUNTING UP WORDS AND PHRASES (NOT CLAUSES):

“FALLEN STARS” BURN LIKE RED/ORANGE FIRES

1. Martin uses the exact phrase “fallen star” very sparingly—only four times in all of the published works (so far).

  • One is Ned’s statement that Dawn is forged from the heart of a fallen star.
  • The other three: “fallen stars” are metaphorical comparisons to fires/flames burning in darkness. When narrators mention colors, the fires burn red or orange. And Martin uses similar phrases just as sparingly.

2. Instances of “fallen star” or something very close to “fallen star.” I’ll put this in a spoiler for those who’d rather not read a list of data points and just skip to the bottom line.

ETA: The formatting went nuts on me and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. So the bottom line of the data points list is at the start of the next post.

 

Game: Zero uses of the exact phrase.

Clash: Three exact uses. One slightly indirect use.

NOTE: Phrase occurs most in the novel where Ned tells Bran about Dawn.

Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Clash, Prologue.

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star." Clash, Bran III

Wherever [Catelyn] looked, she saw fires. They covered the earth like fallen stars, and like the stars there was no end to them. Clash, Catelyn II

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars. Clash, Jon VI.

Storm: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One similar phrase.

A fine black night, thought Dany. The fires burned all around her, small orange stars strewn across hill and field.  Storm, Dany IV

Feast: One use of the exact phrase. One very close phrase. ETA: No idea why this point on has a strikethrough on it--and I can't get rid of it. My apologies.

he pushed through the weirwood door into the House of Black and White. Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. Feast, Cat of the Canals

[T]he stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I

Dance: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One very close phrase.

Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse, the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had murdered Rhaego in her womb. Dance, Dany X

Winds Sample Chapters: Zero uses.

Novellas: Zero uses of “fallen star.” Many “falling/shooting stars” tied to Dunk.

World of Ice and Fire: Zero uses of “fallen star.” One “falling star”—referencing the Dayne legend.

 

Edited by Sly Wren
FORMAT and data points list

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4. Bottom Line of the Data Points List From Previous Post (Sorry--the forum keeps messing up my format):

  • In the published works, the exact phrase “fallen star” only references Dawn and fires burning in darkness—red or orange fires, when the color is given.
  • The most instances of the phrase “fallen star” occur in the same novel (Clash) where Ned says Dawn is forged from the heart of a fallen star. And where Jon sees a red fire glimmering like a fallen star—at the start of the same chapter where he meets the woman who almost leads him to “fall” from the Watch.
  • When not a fire, a “fallen star” is a great man who fell—a “star” who has “fallen.”

5. Dawn’s “fallen star” is a metaphor for both fallen men and fires in the night. Dawn will burn like a fallen star when the Long Night falls. 

  • Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. Dance, Jon XII

PART III: THE “FALLEN STAR” IS A GREAT MAN WHO FELL FROM HIS HIGH POSITION OF FEARLESS DOMINANCE. LIKE THE NIGHT'S KING, DROGO, OR TYWIN. A STAR WHO FELL. 

1. But wait! “Forged from the heart of a falling star” must mean a meteor! Not at all necessarily. “Fallen star” or “star who has fallen” is always a metaphor in the novels.

2. Jon Connington gives an interesting phrase for what leads one to fall.

[H]is father and his father's father had never lost their lands. He had. I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell. Dance, The Griffin Reborn

Aerys stripped JonCon of his lands and titles and gave them to his cousin. JonCon was thrown down in favor of relatives—because (in his mind) he tried to “grasp a star.”

3. Like JonCon, the Night’s King fell after grasping a star—a star-eyed woman. His brother cast him down because he fearlessly “overreached”—to dominate his “brothers.”

  • He was a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him, [snip] for all men must know fear."
  • “A woman was his downfall; [snip] with [snip] eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her.”
  • He declared himself king. “Bound his Sworn Brothers to his will” with sorcery.
  • The Stark of Winterfell and Joramun joined to free the Watch from bondage.
  • After his fall, they found he had sacrificed to the Others. All records of the Night's King were destroyed, his very name forbidden. Storm, Bran IV

4. Like the Night’s King, both Drogo and Tywin are described as stars that have fallen—fearless men cast down by “family”—Tywin by Tyrion, Drogo by his “brothers.”

  • Tywin—a man who rose far and broke many “rules.” Cast down by family.
    • The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I
  • Drogo: A “sun-and-stars” reaching greater power than any before. His beloved foreign queen has unusual eyes. And he’s brought down in a fight with “brothers.”
    • In Vaes Dothrak, beneath the Mother of Mountains, [snip] every rider was a brother and all quarrels were put aside.” Game, Dany VII

After falling, he’ll burn like a star.

  • Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse. Dance, Dany X
  • When a horselord dies, his horse is slain with him [snip]. The bodies are burned beneath the open sky, and the khal rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars. Game, Dany X.

5. Thus, Dawn’s “fallen star” is the Night’s King, who reached too high and was cast down.

PART IV: HEART SURGERY: HEART TREE, NOT HEARTS, GLOW WHITE LIKE DAWN. 

1. Then what about the “heart” of the “fallen star?” Someone ripped out a fallen man’s heart to make a sword? Blech! No—not his literal, human heart. His heart tree.

2. Weirwoods are the heart of Westeros—undying, interconnected, holding memories.

3. And heart trees are the centers of castles and families, humanized by the faces carved into them. Winterfell’s heart tree’s roots extend into the family crypts—the family’s heart.

4. And a sword can also be a person’s metaphorical “heart” and identity:

"It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . .

. . . but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. Feast, Arya II

5. Similarly, whoever wields Dawn becomes a sword—“The Sword of the Morning.”

6. Weirwoods are also used to make weapons for both children of the forest and humans.

7. So—“heart trees” aren’t called “heart trees” for no reason. But how does this relate to Dawn? The weirwood Black Gate glows “like milk.” Like milkglass Dawn. Finally, there’s a “heart” that glows white, is “alive with light,” and can be a weapon.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself. Storm, Bran IV

"He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X.

8. A “heart” that glows white, alive with light. A “heart” tied to identity, family, gods, vows over which family will cast each other down for overreach—the source of Dawn.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

Edited by Sly Wren
An excess of italics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PART V. THE BLACK GATE IS THE NIGHT'S KING. ENTOMBED, NOT EXECUTED, FOR OATHBREAKING, DOMINANCE, AND "OVERREACH"

1.The milky Black Gate is not a normal heart tree—it’s an ancient man whose eyes open and close. His eyes are white and blind, not red. He speaks with a living mouth in common tongue—no windy whispers. This heart tree is a living man—a fallen star[k].

“He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” [snip] "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon." Storm, Bran IV

2. The Night’s King (Brandon) is far more entwined in his heart tree than even Brynden (a form of Brandon) Rivers.

Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull. Dance, Bran II

3. The Night’s King was “sacrificed” to his heart tree and the Wall. Similarly, the 79 Sentinels were “sacrificed” to the Wall at the Nightfort for oathbreaking—not justly executed by a Stark like Ned.

The Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels, they're called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Storm, Bran IV

There’s even Arson Iceaxe—trapped in the Wall for trying to tunnel through it (Storm, Jon III).

4. Ygritte is right: the Wall is a tomb.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood." Storm, Jon IV

Part VI. OTHERS, WARGS, AND AN ABOMINABLE LIVING GATE : HOW NOT TO DEAL WITH OATHBREAKERS.

1. So, why is the Black Gate alive, unlike other heart trees? Because the Night’s King was “fearless.” In the novels, fearless men are living dead or wargs in their wolves—the Night’s King was an Other and/or a warg

  • Sam recognizes “fearlessness” in the Others in the same novel where we hear of the fearless Night’s King:
    • "Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!"
    • Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. Storm, Sam II
  • Arya is fearless in her “second life”—dreaming in Nymeria:
    • She dreamed of wolves that night, stalking through a wet wood with the smell of rain and rot and blood thick in the air. Only they were good smells in the dream, and Arya knew she had nothing to fear. She was strong and swift and fierce, and her pack was all around her, her brothers and her sisters. [snip] And when the moon broke through the clouds, she threw back her head and howled. Storm, Arya II
  • Varamyr ends up in his second life—fearless in the fearless One Eye:
    • A shiver went through Varamyr. He knew that howl as well as Lump had once known his mother's voice. One Eye. He was the oldest of his three, the biggest, the fiercest. Stalker was leaner, quicker, younger, Sly more cunning, but both went in fear of One Eye. The old wolf was fearless, relentless, savage. Dance, Prologue
  • And Bran sees Varamyr’s One-Eyed fearlessness via Summer:
    • The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side, nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size. Dance, Bran I

2. As Sam says, for the dead, fear has “no more meaning than pain or love or duty.” But the Night’s King in the Black Gate now waits eternally to serve any Watchman who knows his oath/duty. And only the part of the oath that’s about his identity. His “heart.”

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

3. Ned teaches his Stark children that this is NOT the right way to deal with oathbreakers.

“[O]ur way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. Game, Bran I

4. No wonder the Black Gate (named for the Black Brother inside it?) and its entrance are so cold—it’s an abomination—a colder and colder spiral into absolute darkness.

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon [snip]. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness. Storm, Bran IV

5. And the Nightfort above the Black Gate is an abomination, too—Bran’s list of horror stories makes that very clear. From the start of the Nightfort chapter, the current Brandon Stark knows this place is wrong.

It is only another empty castle," Meera Reed said as she gazed across the desolation of rubble, ruins, and weeds.

No, thought Bran, it is the Nightfort, and this is the end of the world. Storm, Bran IV

PART VII: SO—WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH A CURSED OATHBREAKER? LISTEN TO NED AND EXECUTE HIM—LIKE A STARK. 

JUSTICE, NOT TARGARYEN VENGEANCE OR CONQUERING  RESTORES ORDER.

1. In the first novel’s first chapter, Ned tells Bran how to deal with oathbreakers—and why. From the Targaryen kings onward, this justice was forgotten. But the Starks remember.

"[T]he man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." Game, Bran I

2. Entombing a man alive for millennia instead of executing him—never hearing his “final” words—that definitely violates justice and forgets what death is.

3. Westeros’ unnatural seasons are a violated life cycle—life and death, summer and winter, day and night. All must be restored to the old ways—to justice.

4. The first paragraph of the first novel’s first chapter, right after the “Prologue” where the Others kill Waymar—that paragraph tells us what’s needed: Justice at dawn.

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer. They set forth at daybreak to see a man beheaded [snip]. This was the first time [Bran] had been deemed old enough to go with his lord father and his brothers to see the king's justice done. Game, Bran I

5. The Night’s King must finally be executed with justice. With Dawn.

CONTINUED IN JUST ONE MORE POST

Edited by Sly Wren
Format mess and I can't spell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PART VIII: DAY'S KING'S JUSTICE ENDS NIGHT'S KING'S HORROR —

Á LA ARTHUR AND THE SMILING KNIGHT: WINNER TAKES DAWN.

1. As @Voice has argued, the Others’ “blue eyes of death” likely re-entered Westeros when a Stark of Winterfell killed the Sword of the Morning--a fight between a Night’s King (Stark) descendant and a Day’s (Dayne) King—and Night defeated Day.

2. To restore justice and the old ways, Jon must be the Stark of Winterfell who learns what Ned taught. He must do what the Stark who threw down his Night’s King brother failed to do: look into the oathbreaker’s eyes, hear his final words, and take his life—the Sword of the Morning ending the fearless Night’s King. As Arthur Dayne ended the fearless Smiling Knight.

The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. Storm, Jaime VIII

NOTE: We hear the Smiling Knight didn’t “know the meaning of fear” in the same novel where we hear the Night’s King was “a warrior who knew no fear.” Old Nan is right: “All men must know fear."

3. As @superunknown5 points out, this fight makes Arthur look reckless--he lets his opponent get a new sword. But it’s not just recklessness—it’s insisting on a fair fight—a “just” fight. Not conquering and vengeance—even over a dangerous, fearless man. The Sword of the Morning looks in the Smiling Knight’s eyes, hears his last words, and makes an end of it—in a fair fight.

4. The importance of only using overwhelming power in a fair fight—we have that in the story of Just Maid—the sword of Galladon of Morne the “Perfect Knight” (Morne and Dawn? Gotta be a connection). That sword was only to be used against supernatural foes—out of fairness. Justice and fairness, not just dominance and vengeance.

  • "Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair." Feast, Brienne IV

5. “The Battle for the Dawn”—a battle to end the Long Night. But perhaps also a pun—a battle to control the greatsword Dawn: the fearless Night’s King (Sword of the Evening) or the just Day’s King (Sword of the Morning). A sword for justice, not dominance.

  • "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. Storm, Jaime VIII

6. The champion gets the sword—a history echoed in the Northern Mountain Clans’ tradition of champions fighting with greatswords (like Dawn), as Jon tells Stannis:

  • "Men have lived in the high valleys and mountain meadows for thousands of years, ruled by their clan chiefs. [snip] Clan champions fight with huge two-handed greatswords, while the common men sling stones and batter one another with staffs of mountain ash." Dance, Jon IV

7. The Sword of the Morning wins Dawn through worthiness. He serves out justice, not vengeance or conquering—as Ned taught his boys. As Arthur did to the Smiling Knight.

8. That “worthiness” breeds jealousy—the Smiling Knight wants “that white sword.” So does Darkstar—a Dayne who’s NOT the Sword of the Morning. He’s a watered down “Night’s King,” jealous of his kinsman’s sword and fame.

  • "There was an Arthur Dayne," Myrcella said. "He was a knight of the Kingsguard in the days of Mad King Aerys."
  • "He was the Sword of the Morning. He is dead."
  • "Are you the Sword of the Morning now?"
  • "No. Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night."
  • [snip] Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"
  • "He was a great knight," Ser Arys Oakheart put in.
  • "He had a great sword," Darkstar said.
  • "And a great heart." Feast, The Queenmaker

9. Like the Black Gate, Dawn is innately entwined with its wielder’s identity—the chosen wielder “becomes” a completely unique sword: “The Sword of the Morning.” “I am the sword in the darkness.” NOT a “dark star”—the Sword of the Morning lasts though the night into the dawn:

  • Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn. Storm, Jon IV

10. And that sword-entwined, justice-based identity must end the Long Night.

PART IX: BUT WHY JON? BECAUSE HE'S “AN OLD HAND AT JUSTICE.” AND HE KEEPS THE OATH THAT THE BLACK GATE RECOGNIZES BUT FAILED TO KEEP HIMSELF. 

1. In the first novel’s first chapter, Jon understands and applies Ned’s lessons of justice: listen to the man and don’t look away. Jon shows Bran what to do, even before Ned explains things to Bran.

  • His father [snip] took hold of Ice with both hands [snip]. He lifted the greatsword high above his head.
  • Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. "Keep the pony well in hand," he whispered. "And don't look away. Father will know if you do."
  • Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.
  • His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. [snip]
  •  [Jon] put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. Game, Bran I

2. Unlike Theon, who treats the dismembered head like a joke, Jon learns Ned’s lessons very well—justice, not vengeance, not showing off. An “old hand at justice.”

3. Jon has kept to that justice—protection, not vengeance or dominance. He understands the Night’s Watch oath far better than most. And does his best (if imperfectly) to follow it.

  • "I know what I swore." Jon said the words. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?"
  • "They were. As the lord commander knows."
  • "Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?" Jon waited for an answer. None came. "I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?" Dance, Jon XI

4. Jon, an old hand at justice who keeps his oaths—the Sword of the Morning must make “an end of it.” Justly killing the man who knew no fear. Bringing back the day. With Dawn.

PART X: SUMMING UP

1. Milkglass Dawn glows alive with light like the living Black Gate because it is the Night King’s sword—the sword of a fallen star, taken from him in the Battle for the Dawn.

2. The Night’s King was sacrificed to his heart tree—the Black Gate—not executed justly and properly by a Stark as he should have been.

3. To end Westeros’ unnatural state of nature, the oathbreaking Night’s King must finally be executed by a Stark—as Ned tells Bran at the start of the series.

4. The Sword of the Morning (the Day’s King) must do what the Stark of Winterfell (the Night’s King’s brother) failed to do: justly execute the oathbreaker, restore justice, and end the unnatural torture that disrupts all the natural life processes in Westeros.

5. “Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.” GRRM

6. And the Long Night shall fall.

 THE END

Edited by Sly Wren
Formatting mess and I can't spell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hah, the one time I drop in to Westeros recently I see a new post on one of my favorite threads! Or a new thread in a classic series, you know what I mean. I think you are going to like my next series, which will be about the Others and will have my best symbolic case for Dawn being the original Ice. There is some stuff in there to support some of your arguments here I think. I'm not sure how I feel about the Black Gate being the NK, but I also don't have a good explanation for the Black Gate so I am open-minded. 

Also, you realize the reaching to high / reckless fearlessness thing is a perfect description for Azor Ahai, who stile the fire of the gods and broke the moon, right? Of course I have been zeroing in on the idea that NK is either AA or one of his kin for a while now. And we all know how Azor Ahai feels about moon women :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

I think @Black Crow (or someone on Heresy) has argued something akin to the idea that the Night’s King was sacrificed to/turned into the Black Gate, but I could not find the posts. If you’ve argued this, just tell me so and I’ll cite it here.

And I believe @Black Crow has also argued that the Night’s King became an Other.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Game: Zero uses of the exact phrase.

Clash: Three exact uses. One slightly indirect use.

NOTE: Phrase occurs most in the novel where Ned tells Bran about Dawn.

Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Clash, Prologue.

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star." Clash, Bran III

Wherever [Catelyn] looked, she saw fires. They covered the earth like fallen stars, and like the stars there was no end to them. Clash, Catelyn II

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars. Clash, Jon VI.

Storm: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One similar phrase.

A fine black night, thought Dany. The fires burned all around her, small orange stars strewn across hill and field.  Storm, Dany IV

Feast: One use of the exact phrase. One very close phrase. ETA: No idea why this point on has a strikethrough on it--and I can't get rid of it. My apologies.

he pushed through the weirwood door into the House of Black and White. Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. Feast, Cat of the Canals

[T]he stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I

Dance: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One very close phrase.

Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse, the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had murdered Rhaego in her womb. Dance, Dany X

Winds Sample Chapters: Zero uses.

Novellas: Zero uses of “fallen star.” Many “falling/shooting stars” tied to Dunk.

World of Ice and Fire: Zero uses of “fallen star.” One “falling star”—referencing the Dayne legend.

 

Ah, invoking my name in vain again...

As to the first, that originally started out as a Halloween joke a few years ago, before we started to think there might be something in it.

The serious side of the argument lies in questioning whether the weirwood faces are actually carved or whether, looking at the variety of expressions exhibited by the trees in that grove just north of the Wall, whether they are the faces of those sacrificed to the trees - willingly or otherwise. Its worth remembering here that in telling the story of the Pact, Maester Luwin says that the trees on the island were given faces rather than had faces carved on them. It may be semantics. It may not.

As to the second, that's a more recent theory arguing that just as dragons are fire made flesh so the walkers are ice made flesh, and if Targaryens can become dragons at death in a form of skinchanging, so the Starks may be able to do the same and become white walkers - which is why the swords are needed to hold them in their graves.

[if you want to discuss or refute this one come across to Heresy rather than drag this thread off-topic] :commie:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, invoking my name in vain again...

Whoops! Sorry--I could have sworn it was you. My apologies.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The serious side of the argument lies in questioning whether the weirwood faces are actually carved or whether, looking at the variety of expressions exhibited by the trees in that grove just north of the Wall, whether they are the faces of those sacrificed to the trees - willingly or otherwise.

Yup--this is one of the things that was running through my head when this idea started messing with me.

Especially that tree at Whitetree--looks like an abomination. @LynnS argues that the Whitetree tree is the Night's King's sacrifice tree. Which would make sense--given how monstrous it's face is. The faces of the first sacrifices.

I waffle on whether the Black Gate is the Night's King's tree or was made from the Night's King's tree. But the idea that the faces reflect the sacrifices--that I buy as very likely.

Quote

Its worth remembering here that in telling the story of the Pact, Maester Luwin says that the trees on the island were given faces rather than had faces carved on them. It may be semantics. It may not.

Doesn't sound like semantics to me--we've potentially got living swords in these books. And all the talk of second lives.

The faces "living on" in the trees they were sacrificed to--makes sense.

Quote

As to the second, that's a more recent theory arguing that just as dragons are fire made flesh so the walkers are ice made flesh, and if Targaryens can become dragons at death in a form of skinchanging, so the Starks may be able to do the same and become white walkers - which is why the swords are needed to hold them in their graves.

1. Have the books established that the Targs can become dragons via skin changing? That would be a game changer.

2. Would the Starks have to "skinchange" to become walkers? Or just be "changed"--in whatever manner the Others are changed? Are you thinking that's hinted at in Varamyr's phrase of "second life?" 

But given how different the face on the Gate is, the idea that the Night's King became an Other seems like it's worth considering. Especially since it seems to weep over the current Brandon Stark that willingly passes through it--a willing (if unknowing) sacrifice.

The whole idea has been making me fear that part of "restoring justice" will involve Jon sacrificing Bran.

Which freaks me out.

Quote

[if you want to discuss or refute this one come across to Heresy rather than drag this thread off-topic] :commie:

HA! It's all on topic far as I can see.

But I've been off Heresy far too long, good ser. Will be back very soon. :commie:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, LmL said:

Hah, the one time I drop in to Westeros recently I see a new post on one of my favorite threads! Or a new thread in a classic series, you know what I mean.

:cheers: Good to see you, ser!

18 hours ago, LmL said:

I think you are going to like my next series, which will be about the Others and will have my best symbolic case for Dawn being the original Ice.

Very cool.

Sorry about the pun.

18 hours ago, LmL said:

There is some stuff in there to support some of your arguments here I think.

Excellent! Will keep an eye out!

18 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm not sure how I feel about the Black Gate being the NK, but I also don't have a good explanation for the Black Gate so I am open-minded. 

I don't much like it either--since it makes me fear Jon will have to sacrifice Bran. And I don't like that--AT ALL!

That scene I quote at the end where Jon shows Bran how to behave. The dream Jon has of Bran as a young weirwood--like Bran's growing into the weirnet--where Bran says he likes it in the dark.

If the Black Gate is a sacrifice-based abomination (#TeamAbomination, dude!), ending it and the Others with justice makes a LOT of sense in the novels.

But Ned's justice requires execution. So, who exactly is Jon going to execute? 

No--I don't like this at all.

Really hope I'm wrong--I so often am, that there's a very good chance of it.

18 hours ago, LmL said:

Also, you realize the reaching to high / reckless fearlessness thing is a perfect description for Azor Ahai, who stile the fire of the gods and broke the moon, right?

Yup. Reckless, fearless dominance is the opposite of serving, generous justice.

Martin seems to keep hitting those ideas. Hard. And justice is the "right" way in Martinlandia--though figuring it out can be hard.

18 hours ago, LmL said:

Of course I have been zeroing in on the idea that NK is either AA or one of his kin for a while now. And we all know how Azor Ahai feels about moon women :)

Yes--his story of the sword is very different from the story of Just Maid.

Makes me wonder all of a sudden if the Just Maid story is how the sword was given--only to be used against a supernatural foe. NEVER used against people--because it would be too unfair.

And the AA story is how the sword was. . . misused. For dominance instead of "justice."

Dawn becoming Ice. . . . 

Maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Especially that tree at Whitetree--looks like an abomination. @LynnS argues that the Whitetree tree is the Night's King's sacrifice tree. Which would make sense--given how monstrous it's face is. The faces of the first sacrifices.

Yup, I was spit-balling about that here:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1513/night-king-black-gate?page=2&scrollTo=62437

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Whoops! Sorry--I could have sworn it was you. My apologies.

Yup--this is one of the things that was running through my head when this idea started messing with me.

Especially that tree at Whitetree--looks like an abomination. @LynnS argues that the Whitetree tree is the Night's King's sacrifice tree. Which would make sense--given how monstrous it's face is. The faces of the first sacrifices.

I waffle on whether the Black Gate is the Night's King's tree or was made from the Night's King's tree. But the idea that the faces reflect the sacrifices--that I buy as very likely.

Doesn't sound like semantics to me--we've potentially got living swords in these books. And all the talk of second lives.

The faces "living on" in the trees they were sacrificed to--makes sense.

1. Have the books established that the Targs can become dragons via skin changing? That would be a game changer.

2. Would the Starks have to "skinchange" to become walkers? Or just be "changed"--in whatever manner the Others are changed? Are you thinking that's hinted at in Varamyr's phrase of "second life?" 

But given how different the face on the Gate is, the idea that the Night's King became an Other seems like it's worth considering. Especially since it seems to weep over the current Brandon Stark that willingly passes through it--a willing (if unknowing) sacrifice.

The whole idea has been making me fear that part of "restoring justice" will involve Jon sacrificing Bran.

Which freaks me out.

HA! It's all on topic far as I can see.

It was me. I was being ironic B)

As to the Targaryens we haven't seen then skinchange, but Danaerys has some kind of telepathic link which we saw before the eggs hatched, and at least some Targaryens seem to believe that they can become dragons. I just rather suspect that they have forgotten how to.

I would say though that what we've been discussing on Heresy is a second life rather than body hopping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to legend ... the Night's King ruled from the Nightfort. The Black Gate is under the Wall in a tunnel system and the Wall was build or existed at the time of the Night's King. This is confirmed by the Nightfort on top the Wall. The Wall must have existed before the fort. All that combined:

1. the first purpose of the Wall was not that of a tomb.It existed before the NK's reign (Bran the builder build it). It's not a pyramid for the glory of the NK. 

2. It is possible that the Night's King is in the Black Gate. But somehow I would search in the Nightsfort which is ... on top of the Gate. Especially if he ruled from above.

3. Of course the NK can rule after being sacrified. And the question arises if the BG was added later to the wall. 

 

It only works in some way if ...

- Bran the Builder is the Night`s King. (Wall and tomb). Given that he build (again according to legend) Winterfell, Storm's End and the Wall that would mean ... the Nk is Bran and could be Azor Ahai. In the case of AA the Wall is also Lightbringer (or maybe it is Winterfell). It would also mean the White Tree of Whitetree is the location where Nissa Nissa died to Lightbringer. That's could explain why the flame is red (from Lightbringer). But how a Wall or WF can kill with fire ... no. 

Conclusion: something is off with the theory. It may not be off by much but I would assume that Bran and the Night's King are not the same. 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, LynnS said:

:cheers:

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It was me. I was being ironic B)

Apparently my reading comprehension needs improving.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the Targaryens we haven't seen then skinchange, but Danaerys has some kind of telepathic link which we saw before the eggs hatched, and at least some Targaryens seem to believe that they can become dragons.

Yes--this I buy.

And there's Dany's almost blissful dreams of turning into a dragon--though they sometimes end with her mouth tasting of ashes.

Hmmm. . .  I wonder if this is a longing for immortality/a second life in something powerful rather than an ability to actually skinchange. It's definitely a longing for power--the entire concept of "wake the dragon," from the first time Viserys says it, is a phrase for unlimited power and license to do as one pleases. Dominance and conquering. 

Though we see Bran indulge in that, too, when he likes being in Summer when Summer is dominating other animals. 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would say though that what we've been discussing on Heresy is a second life rather than body hopping

Which would fit with the dragons being like the Others--if the Others are also a form of second life for Craster's boys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

According to legend ... the Night's King ruled from the Nightfort. The Black Gate is under the Wall in a tunnel system and the Wall was build or existed at the time of the Night's King. This is confirmed by the Nightfort on top the Wall. The Wall must have existed before the fort. All that combined:

Yup. Though perhaps less a tunnel and more a portal--Sam seems to think that Bran and Co. might not even be able to see the Gate unless he's with them.

And the Nightfort is next to the Wall--with steps carved into it. 

And the Black Gate does seem likely to have been there before or right at the time of the start of the Wall. But it's off--cold and deathly. Weirwood that looks like an ancient living man, not the faces of the regular weirwoods. And Bran makes it note that it's not black but white--why is it the Black Gate, then? Was it always that. . . strange and cold? Something seems off. Like something about that Gate has been changed.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

1. the first purpose of the Wall was not that of a tomb.

Yup. But it has become one--the 79 Sentinels alone prove that. Something's not right at the Nightfort.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

It existed before the NK's reign (Bran the builder build it). It's not a pyramid for the glory of the NK. 

Yup. Though how exactly BtB built it is unclear. And Martin has said it has grown. Seems like there's a chance it's a growing, living thing.

And I apologize if I made it sound like I thought it was a pyramid for the Night's King. Not at all my intent. 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

2. It is possible that the Night's King is in the Black Gate. But somehow I would search in the Nightsfort which is ... on top of the Gate. Especially if he ruled from above.

Possible. Or, as @LynnS has suggested, the weirwood at Whitetree. 

But something is up with that thousand+ year-old man face in the Gate. 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

3. Of course the NK can rule after being sacrified. And the question arises if the BG was added later to the wall.

Yes--though if the NK is in the Gate, he seems more enslaved than ruling--he's in permanent serving mode. Opens for any brother who says the words. 

And the Gate could have been added after--IE: if the portal was always there, but the Gate and the "passcode" system came later after the Night's King abused his power (I am now imagining all of the Watchmen having to carry key cards--which would be stupid). 

If the Gate came later, it could be a way to reign in the power and abuse of the Watch and its leader. After all, the Watch seems to be the original Brotherhood Without Banners--a band of brothers protecting the realm. As Thoros and Beric claim to be. 

A King claiming power after that kind of unity--yes. That would make sense the rest might want to restore the unity--and reign in the power of the leader.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

It only works in some way if ...

- Bran the Builder is the Night`s King. (Wall and tomb).

I think this is VERY likely. The hero who eventually overreached his power. That's pretty much the story of the Night's King, after all.

We see it echoed (roughly) a few times: Beric and the Brotherhood--but it goes off when Beric dies to raise Lady Stoneheart. 

Or the Smiling Knight--the Kingswood Brotherhood is technically fighting for the small folk. It's only when Arthur Dayne begins to serve the people and fight for their rights better than the Smiling Knight can that the small folk give up the Smiling Knight--and Arthur puts him down.

So--hero figure gone too far: that would fit.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Given that he build (again according to legend) Winterfell, Storm's End and the Wall that would mean ... the Nk is Bran and could be Azor Ahai. In the case of AA the Wall is also Lightbringer (or maybe it is Winterfell). It would also mean the White Tree of Whitetree is the location where Nissa Nissa died to Lightbringer. That's could explain why the flame is red (from Lightbringer). But how a Wall or WF can kill with fire ... no. 

1. The idea that Brandon the Builder built all of the things he's supposed to have built seems. . . . unlikely. Winterfell and the Wall make sense--and no idea what order they came in. The rest? Seems like the actual builders could have been lost to time.

2. As for NK = BtB = AA: seems like they could be related stories. Actually equalling each other.  .  no idea if Martin will even confirm or deny that. He's actually said in an SSM that "who knows" if Bran the Builder and Lann the Clever were actually real people. So. . . the idea that the legends are all mixed up makes sense.

3. I'm not really sold on the Wall being Lightbringer. . . . any reason why that legend can't apply to his sword? Or another sword? 

4. Why the sword is red. . . well, I'm currently of the (potentially fanatical) thinking that Dawn will burn red. Seeing as in the novels, fallen stars, when given a color, burn red. 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Conclusion: something is off with the theory. It may not be off by much but I would assume that Bran and the Night's King are not the same. 

On the bold: all fair. But really seems like the novels allow for if not encourage the idea that the Night's King was at least named Brandon--Nan makes that clear.

And the novels allow for if not encourage the idea that a great man can fall from overreach--and the Night's King really seems like he overreached--or like his brothers thought he overreached. . . . 

Though all that said--I could very obviously be completely wrong on the Gate being a sacrifice.

Still--something is wrong about that face. And the cold. Really, really wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not completely there yet although I think the Wall could have been planed as a tomb. Much like Winterfell is a castle to protect a tomb, the Nightfort is a castle to protect something. But certainly not the gate because the same architect that build Winterfell would have most likely covered the Gate and build directly over it and not over it with space in between. 

 

on a side note just to play with the arguments presented and the conclusions drawn: If Arson Iceaxe was walled in the Wall an he died there protecting the Black Gate, couldn't the Black Gate not just be white because ... his face was frozen when he died and it's his face that is shown ?

Similar with the Night's Queen. Could well be the Night's Queen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 4:19 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

2. Jon Connington gives an interesting phrase for what leads one to fall.

[H]is father and his father's father had never lost their lands. He had. I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell. Dance, The Griffin Reborn

Still reading but had to say I love this catch because this line had always stood out to me but could not figure it out. 

I love this idea! Nice work! 

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 2:55 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

DAWN'S JUSTICE ENDS THE LONG NIGHT:

THE NIGHT'S KING IN THE BLACK GATE 

 [Dawn] was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight. Storm, Bran IV

The morning had dawned clear and cold [. . .]. This was the first time he had been deemed old enough [. . .] to see the king's justice done. Game, Bran I

Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. Game, Bran I

VERY SHORT VERSION:

1. The Black Gate is the fearless Night’s King’s heart tree and Dawn was his weirwood sword—metaphorically “forged from the heart of a fallen star[k].”

2. That’s why milkglass Dawn is alive with light like the milky Black Gate. Taken from the Night’s King in the “Battle for the Dawn.”

3. But where Ned executes oathbreakers himself, the Night’s King’s brothers put him into his heart tree, entombing him alive in the Wall—like the 79 Sentinels.

4. The Night’s King was very likely a warg and/or an Other—thus “fearless.” This made his sacrifice to his heart tree VERY different—he lives on in a living, growing Wall.

5. Just as Ned Stark justly executes oathbreakers, the Sword of the Morning (Jon) must end the fearless Night’s King, once and for all. With Dawn—administering justice, not vengeance, greed, or dominance.

6. Dawn brings justice. Restoring the natural cycles of night and day, life and death.

Set up and Shout Outs:

Shout out to @ravenous reader for staring me on looking for this here. 

I first posted a version of this argument here. My thanks to those who commented and helped make it better (I think).

A lot of these ideas build off of @Voicetheory about fallen Star[k]s and swords. 

Big shout-outs to @DarkSister1001, @Lady Dyanna, @LmL, @Lady Barbrey and everyone else for the ideas they put into my “Jon’s the Sword of the Morning” threads.

@Voice and @LmL asserted that Dawn could be a weirwood sword long before I did.

I think @Black Crow (or someone on Heresy) has argued something akin to the idea that the Night’s King was sacrificed to/turned into the Black Gate, but I could not find the posts. If you’ve argued this, just tell me so and I’ll cite it here.

And I believe @Black Crow has also argued that the Night’s King became an Other.

Thus: The following arguments are largely derived from a group effort. My apologies to anyone I’ve forgotten to mention. Remind me and I’ll amend this section ASAP.

Disclaimer: I do not assert that posters listed above agree with the following arguments. They are not responsible for my madness.

PART I: DAWN AND THE HEART OF A FALLEN STAR: WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS SWORD?

1. Dawn is completely unique and as sharp and strong as Valyrian steel.

It looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. World Book: Dorne: The Andals Arrive.

2. Ned tells Bran that Dawn was “forged from the “heart of a fallen star.” Clash, Bran III

3. Ned’s dream tells us that Dawn is “pale as milkglass, alive with light.” Game, Eddard X

4. Dawn makes its wielder a better fighter. When asked, “Who would win in a fight, Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne (in their best days)?” Martin answered, “Dayne. . . if he was armed with Dawn. If both men had equivalent weaponry, it might be a toss-up.” SSM

5. And the Daynes are very choosey about whom they give Dawn. A Dayne must earn it.

“George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” SSM

6. So, that’s it, right? Dawn glows white, is really sharp and strong. It improves its wielder and the family only bestows it on one who’s worthy.

7. No: Dawn was “forged from the heart of a fallen star.” And in Martinlandia, “fallen stars” burn like fires.

PART II: COUNTING UP WORDS AND PHRASES (NOT CLAUSES):

“FALLEN STARS” BURN LIKE RED/ORANGE FIRES

1. Martin uses the exact phrase “fallen star” very sparingly—only four times in all of the published works (so far).

  • One is Ned’s statement that Dawn is forged from the heart of a fallen star.
  • The other three: “fallen stars” are metaphorical comparisons to fires/flames burning in darkness. When narrators mention colors, the fires burn red or orange. And Martin uses similar phrases just as sparingly.

2. Instances of “fallen star” or something very close to “fallen star.” I’ll put this in a spoiler for those who’d rather not read a list of data points and just skip to the bottom line.

ETA: The formatting went nuts on me and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. So the bottom line of the data points list is at the start of the next post.

  Reveal hidden contents

Game: Zero uses of the exact phrase.

Clash: Three exact uses. One slightly indirect use.

NOTE: Phrase occurs most in the novel where Ned tells Bran about Dawn.

Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Clash, Prologue.

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star." Clash, Bran III

Wherever [Catelyn] looked, she saw fires. They covered the earth like fallen stars, and like the stars there was no end to them. Clash, Catelyn II

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars. Clash, Jon VI.

Storm: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One similar phrase.

A fine black night, thought Dany. The fires burned all around her, small orange stars strewn across hill and field.  Storm, Dany IV

Feast: One use of the exact phrase. One very close phrase. ETA: No idea why this point on has a strikethrough on it--and I can't get rid of it. My apologies.

he pushed through the weirwood door into the House of Black and White. Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. Feast, Cat of the Canals

[T]he stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I

Dance: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One very close phrase.

Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse, the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had murdered Rhaego in her womb. Dance, Dany X

Winds Sample Chapters: Zero uses.

Novellas: Zero uses of “fallen star.” Many “falling/shooting stars” tied to Dunk.

World of Ice and Fire: Zero uses of “fallen star.” One “falling star”—referencing the Dayne legend.

 

Should check out my magic thread. 

I propose that Valyrian steel is made out of weirwood trees. Valyrian steel specifically made from the Black Weirwoods with blue leaves, while Dawn was forged using the White weirwoods.

How? The special magical wood was used in the forging process to add the carbon to Iron needed to make steel.

Your quote you link at the top really helps reinforce my theory. Thank you :D

*Edit-

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

It was darker than she would have thought under the black trees, and the way was longer.

I link the black stone we see to the same black trees petrified like the Grey Kings Hall being petrified weirwood. The comet i think likely happened but didn't produce enough material to build Asshai with. 

So the Black stones and valyrian steel seem to drink in the light.

Where as your passage nicely illustrates the difference with Dawn being the White Weirwoods and both glowing like milk glass.

 

Perfect. Once again, thank you :)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 3:50 PM, Sly Wren said:

1. As @Voice has argued, the Others’ “blue eyes of death” likely re-entered Westeros when a Stark of Winterfell killed the Sword of the Morning--a fight between a Night’s King (Stark) descendant and a Day’s (Dayne) King—and Night defeated Day.

 

It's canon I tell you!

:commie:

 

 

A descendant of Brandon the Builder (aka, the Night's King) does not simply disarm the wielder of Dawn without wintery consequences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 18, 2017 at 5:18 AM, SirArthur said:

I'm not completely there yet although I think the Wall could have been planed as a tomb. Much like Winterfell is a castle to protect a tomb, the Nightfort is a castle to protect something. But certainly not the gate because the same architect that build Winterfell would have most likely covered the Gate and build directly over it and not over it with space in between. 

1. My apologies for the massive delay--family crisis struck and I've had to be away.

2. Interesting on the Wall being planned as a tomb--I hadn't thought of that. I think it ended up as one. But the idea that it was originally planned as one is interesting--and I like the Winterfell analogy.

I think the Winterfell tombs are unique because they have a unique purpose--they are housing the sleepers waiting to be called. Similarly, the Wall houses the Night's Watch--and the Night Fort in particular. So, yes--the Gate could be watching over that space.

Though it also brings up the titles of the Night's Watch and the Night Fort. "Night." Not general Watch--only Night. "Night gathers and NOW my watch begins" goes the current oath. They should only be there at Night--no need to Watch otherwise.

Seems like the Black Gate, like the Winterfell Crypts, might be waiting for the next Long Night--but that the Night's King and/or his compatriots ended up using the magic of the place (and perhaps the magic of the Greatsword Dawn) to gain power, not just protect--the constant struggle in these books: dominance or protection. Conquering or serving. 

On September 18, 2017 at 5:18 AM, SirArthur said:

on a side note just to play with the arguments presented and the conclusions drawn: If Arson Iceaxe was walled in the Wall an he died there protecting the Black Gate, couldn't the Black Gate not just be white because ... his face was frozen when he died and it's his face that is shown ?

Maybe--though Arson Iceaxe was walled in because he was trying to hack his way through the Wall. So, not protecting, but breaking in.

Though it could be an interesting twist if the Night's King was killed for protecting some magic--yes--that could be very interesting indeed.

On September 18, 2017 at 5:18 AM, SirArthur said:

Similar with the Night's Queen. Could well be the Night's Queen.

Do you mean the Gate could be the Queen? Maybe, though Bran does say: 

Quote

The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that. Storm, Bran IV

Makes it sound male.

But the idea that the Night's Queen also ended up a sacrifice has to be on the table. Mel has a lot of Night's Queen imagery. So does Lyanna. And Ygritte. Even Sansa.

Dany, however, ends up outliving her Fallen Star King (Drogo) and thriving. . . so, seems like there's a chance the Night's Queen escaped. . . . 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 18, 2017 at 11:10 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Still reading but had to say I love this catch because this line had always stood out to me but could not figure it out. 

I love this idea! Nice work! 

1. My apologies for the massive delay.

2. Thanks! :cheers:

3. Yes--the "Fallen star" thing in the novels is surprisingly finite. Very few specific references and they seem all tied together.

Though the idea that JonCon is a kind of Night's King for Rhaegar makes Rhaegar the Night's Queen--and interesting idea.

On September 21, 2017 at 0:23 AM, Voice said:

It's canon I tell you!

:commie:

Amen. It's the ONLY place in the novels with anything like that phrase. Something is up.

On September 21, 2017 at 0:23 AM, Voice said:

A descendant of Brandon the Builder (aka, the Night's King) does not simply disarm the wielder of Dawn without wintery consequences.

And the Night's King cannot be undone by anyone other than the Day's King. 

Even if the Night's King was once a good guy--the star fell. A Sword of the Evening--only a Sword of the Morning can bring back the Dawn. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 18, 2017 at 0:15 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Should check out my magic thread. 

I propose that Valyrian steel is made out of weirwood trees. Valyrian steel specifically made from the Black Weirwoods with blue leaves, while Dawn was forged using the White weirwoods.

How? The special magical wood was used in the forging process to add the carbon to Iron needed to make steel.

1. My apologies fro the massive delay.

2. Interesting--would fit with the theory (which I agree with) that Valyrian steel is a counterfeit of Dawn. A counterfeit of the swords Dany sees in her vision after losing her baby.

3. The behavior of the Undying has some creepy similarities to the children in Bloodraven's cave. So, the tie between the Black trees and the weirwoods has been one on my mind for a while.

4. Which thread is it? I skimmed but couldn't find it--any chance you'd be willing to give me the link?

On September 18, 2017 at 0:15 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Your quote you link at the top really helps reinforce my theory. Thank you :D

:cheers:

On September 18, 2017 at 0:15 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

It was darker than she would have thought under the black trees, and the way was longer.

I link the black stone we see to the same black trees petrified like the Grey Kings Hall being petrified weirwood. The comet i think likely happened but didn't produce enough material to build Asshai with. 

Okay--I don't think I've heard this one before, and I like it. 

Makes for an interesting mix for the Ironborn, if nothing else. They have the oily black Seastone Chair and Nagga's Ribs (which seem very likely to be petrified weirwood). 

On September 18, 2017 at 0:15 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

So the Black stones and valyrian steel seem to drink in the light.

Where as your passage nicely illustrates the difference with Dawn being the White Weirwoods and both glowing like milk glass.

And you have the symbolism--Shade of the Evening--Sword of the Evening--Night's King.

All in contrast to Sword of the Morning and a Day's King.

On September 18, 2017 at 0:15 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Perfect. Once again, thank you :)

Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×