Connecting House Hightower/Dayne AKA The Dawn Empire mirrors

[OberynBlackfyre]

Hello everyone, and hello any old friends that may remember me from my theorycrafting days of the past.  

Anyway, what brings me back to the board is my belief and interest with the "Great Empire of the Dawn being connected to House Dayne/Hightower" theories that have been put forth.  I honestly think that the whole Dawn Empire basically gives us the history, or the majority of the history, that deals with the Long Night.  I think it basically goes to show that ultimately Fire and Ice warring began at the beginning of known human civilization.  From what we at least know, the Great Empire of the Dawn predates even the First Men being in Westeros. However I think there is proof that definitely shows how so far things have happened in PAIRS throughout history.  

Basically during the first "Long Night" it's not called the long night necessarily but known as when the Lion of the Night (Lion of the NIght an Long night somewhat sound similar) punished man for the supposed shame of the Maiden made of Light.  This is the first time that we see a Night v Light deities that are paired with each other.  I think this is ultimately what turned into R'hllor v the Great Other, especially since R'Hllorism started in Asshai, which many people believe is the capitol of what used to be the Dawn Empire.  WELL, as the first Long Night that happened would have been what kicked off the whole ice v fire imbalance, then the Grey Waste is definitely the ice catastrophe, and whatever happened with Asshai and the Shadow is the result of the fire catastrophe. You now know that the "Heart of Darkness" now resides in these lands around Asshai, but what happens to the Heart if Winter which presumably would have also been there? Well you take these two warring elements far far away from each other.....and we know that even though the Dawn Empire spread super far and wide, the only remaining reminence being Yi Ti and Leng....sooo where did all those other people go, the survivors of the catastrophes that made their lands uninhabitable?  

Thus enter the First Men, and the Valyrians.  you have a tide of people moving East.  So lets say that some of them come to Valyria and see that its volcanic....a land that kind of like Asshai. And there definitely seems like the people who settled Asshai may have done so for its volcanic origins....as its also said that it may have been people from ASSHAI AKA THE DAWN EMPIRE THAT TAUGHT THE VALYRIANS ABOUT THE DRAGONS. So what if they set up a colony there knowing that in the future it could perhaps return them to their former selves......but ok they have to push out some people for it.....and then those people become the First Men of Westeros.  Not only the First Men, but perhaps even some of the people from the Dawn Empire, especialy those wh are trying to take the Heart of Winter as far as possible.  So they cross the narrow sea, those with the Heart of Winter going as far as they can North, the others who don't want to be a part of either power going as far west as possible.  This would somewhat mirror the way House Targaryen came to Dragonstone along with the Celtigar and Velaryons.  

However then the power of the ICE goes erratic in the North.  The Long Night comes again and cuts through the nations of the First Men.  Until the family of that came from the Dawn Empire, what may now be House Hightower, finally intercede with perhaps knowledge they remember or find from when they fled the Dawn Empire.  this of course would be a kind of "chosen family" like the Targaryens were.  The girst Sword of the Morning is made as he wields Dawn and goes North.  Where he finds the Last Hero, Brandon the Builder who has successfully made a pact with the Children of the Forest.  With both of their knowledge and power combined, they cast down the Long Night, and build a Wall so no one can ever find the Heart of Winter and its power. Brandon the Builder creates the three eyed crow or becomes the first in the line of "Brandons" that guards House Stark, who will guard where Winterfell.  The other Hero goes back home but wants to keep the sword and what happened in memory, especially calling back to the Dawn Empire, so he creates a House based on his sword, (which is mirrored later by Daemon Blackfyre doing to House Targaryen) and possibly even declares his bloodline royal.  This suddenly puts him above everyone else around House Hightower, so this somewhat breaks ties.  

The Long Night is gone now and steeped in memory, but it changed Westeros.  

To where if you go to Essos, you find it changed much later but by the other element.....perhaps people who wanted the Heart of Darkness (fire) to come again, as remember there are heavy implications that Valyrians were taught dragoncraft by the Asshai'i- EVEN TO THIS DAY.....

Valyria comes, creates the empire, but then ultimately gets destroyed and it changed Essos.  The difference there being that you had a people that already possibly had magic in their blood, that could harness power.  But it also appears that the Valyrians simply KNEW to stay away from Westeros.  There is no record or anything pointing the Valyrian's even ever thinking of attempting to come to Westeros...why?  Because they had prior knowledge about the power that lived there.  They were content with Dragonstone where they could watch and trade but never be close enough to get noticed by the other power.  



Cites:

-We only hear about the things being the "Heart Of" twice within the series.  You see when Bran goes North and sees the curtain of LIGHT that he associates with the Heart of Winter....as when he sees the heart he doesn't describe it with other than fear..he never talks of darkness, though.  
-Then in the World Book you have the lands of Asshai being described as being the Heart of Darkness or Heart of Shadow.  

-This is interesting as both places have seemed extremely prejudiced and themed with them being the center for their proper magical element.  It is said that dragons first came from Asshai, as did R'hllorism- so you have the two most powerful magic essences of fire coming from this place.  As to where the Heart of Winter is obviously the home to White Walkers, possibly Ice Dragons and who knows what else.  

-The word Dawn is almost always associated with Long Night in the series.  War of Dawn was how the Long Night 2 ended, Empire of Great DAWN is what began the Long Night's in the first place.  It seems only appropriate that House DAYne, wielders of DAWN, who are sword of the MORNING- have to do with the Long Night as well.  

-House Hightower has a penchant for knowledge and sorcery.....while also having at least 3 members of the family being described with PROTOVALYRIAN appearances.   It is also said that Ulthos Hightower (the progenitor of the House) took the DRAGON(s) out at Battle Isle....for someone to do this, especially at a time during the First Men....it could stand that he possibly had knowledge of dragons or a way to control/kill them.  

-It's possible that the progenitors of House Hightower could have even come with the very first wave of First Men or before.  If Battle Isle was an outpost like Dragonstone was for Valyria, the Hightowers could have mirrored the Targaryens in getting out way ahead of any DOOM like situation.

-We definitely see much of this falling into the "time is a cycle" theme, which Martin employs and eludes to very much so in the series and elsewhere.  

-Valyria was a smaller version of the Great Empire of Dawn, and only experienced the fire side of chaos and the Doom.  Much like the Long Night 2 was probably only slightly what happened during the Great Empire of Dawn as well.

 

 

It's tinfoil-y I know. But in many ways I feel like Martin kinda comes off that he has answered many of the questions people have asked within the content provided, people just need to piece them together. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Interesting take on things that you think there were 2 Long Nights so far. You could be right, but TWOIAF states that there was only one Long Night so far, and it recounts different versions of the Long Night from various cultures in Essos and Westeros:

Quote

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Interesting take on things that you think there were 2 Long Nights so far. You could be right, but TWOIAF states that there was only one Long Night so far, and it recounts different versions of the Long Night from various cultures in Essos and Westeros:

 

TWOIAF doesn't deal with things that happened far, far, far back though. It only deals with the ancient history that is known on Worlderos, not the ancient history that was ancient to the ancients. If that makes sense.

The idea of two Long Night's has been discussed before, and if I recall correctly the calculations last time around suggested a Long Night recurrence rate of once every 8,000 years.

OP, I'll be back to read your post more in-depth and offer some thoughts tomorrow.

[falcotron]

I'm still reading this, but two things jumped out at me:

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I think this is ultimately what turned into R'hllor v the Great Other, especially since R'Hllorism started in Asshai, which many people believe is the capitol of what used to be the Dawn Empire.

Who believes Asshai was the capital?

Everything in GRRM's writing explicitly describes it as a Yi Tish empire which doesn't seem to have ever even included Asshai, much less been capitaled there. For example: "In ancient days, the god-emperors of Yi Ti were as powerful as any ruler on earth, with wealth that exceeded even that of Valyria at its height and armies of almost unimaginable size… In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth."

Not to mention that the Great Empire is obviously based on mythical ancient China, while Asshai is based more on Lovecraft-circle weird tales than anything else—an ancient city of black stone that existed before civilization began. 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Lion of the NIght an Long night somewhat sound similar

In ancient Yi Tish? Do mànmàn chángyè and shīzi de yèwǎn sound similar?

They don't even sound similar enough in English/Common that anyone would mix them up, or even connect them.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

TWOIAF doesn't deal with things that happened far, far, far back though. It only deals with the ancient history that is known on Worlderos, not the ancient history that was ancient to the ancients. If that makes sense.

The idea of two Long Night's has been discussed before, and if I recall correctly the calculations last time around suggested a Long Night recurrence rate of once every 8,000 years.

OP, I'll be back to read your post more in-depth and offer some thoughts tomorrow.

Sure that does make sense. But that isn't what the OP said. The OP said that the first Long Night was the one that happened when the GEotD fell, and the second was the one in Westeros with the Others. This directly contradicts TWOIAF.

There may have been previous Long Nights in the past, but I doubt it, and we have no evidence there were any others in the distant past, or that another one is even coming in the current story. It strikes me as a one-time event, caused by some crazy thing like a giant meteor impact or something along those lines. I wouldn't be surprised if Planetos has gone through ice ages and significant climate change over long periods of time like Earth, but I am betting that the Long Night 1.0 or something related to it is what made the seasons go crazy and it is not a naturally recurring event.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

I'm still reading this, but two things jumped out at me:

Who believes Asshai was the capital?

Everything in GRRM's writing explicitly describes it as a Yi Tish empire which doesn't seem to have ever even included Asshai, much less been capitaled there. For example: "In ancient days, the god-emperors of Yi Ti were as powerful as any ruler on earth, with wealth that exceeded even that of Valyria at its height and armies of almost unimaginable size… In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth."

Not to mention that the Great Empire is obviously based on mythical ancient China, while Asshai is based more on Lovecraft-circle weird tales than anything else—an ancient city of black stone that existed before civilization began. 

In ancient Yi Tish? Do mànmàn chángyè and shīzi de yèwǎn sound similar?

They don't even sound similar enough in English/Common that anyone would mix them up, or even connect them.

 

Lots of people. The main piece of evidence is the sheer size of Asshai, purportedly big enough to fit KL, Volantis, Qarth, and Oldtown inside its walls, which is absolutely enormous. And we know of no other empires in the area that would justify having built such a large city.

I always thought it was much closer to the ancient Mesopotamian empires like Babylon rather than China. But I am certainly not a history expert so that's up for debate.

[OberynBlackfyre]

7 hours ago, falcotron said:

I'm still reading this, but two things jumped out at me:

Who believes Asshai was the capital?

Everything in GRRM's writing explicitly describes it as a Yi Tish empire which doesn't seem to have ever even included Asshai, much less been capitaled there. For example: "In ancient days, the god-emperors of Yi Ti were as powerful as any ruler on earth, with wealth that exceeded even that of Valyria at its height and armies of almost unimaginable size… In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth."

Not to mention that the Great Empire is obviously based on mythical ancient China, while Asshai is based more on Lovecraft-circle weird tales than anything else—an ancient city of black stone that existed before civilization began. 

In ancient Yi Tish? Do mànmàn chángyè and shīzi de yèwǎn sound similar?

They don't even sound similar enough in English/Common that anyone would mix them up, or even connect them.

 

-To your first question about Asshai and has already been answered: actually many people believe Asshai could have been the capitol city of the Great Dawn Empire.  I believe it was @LmL that first stated that the Great Empire of Dawn was HUUUGE, so therefore it would need a grandiose capital. Well, Asshai can fit Kings Landing, Qarth, and Volantis, and STILL HAVE ROOM FOR OLDTOWN.  I mean Idk how much more immense it can get.  It is also described as being there since the "Dawn of days" and will be there until "the end of days"

-With the Lion of the Night and the Long Night im not trying to say they are somehow one in the same, but they are connected.  I mean they both absolutely invoke Night....and Lion and Long are only one letter apart...

[OberynBlackfyre]

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

TWOIAF doesn't deal with things that happened far, far, far back though. It only deals with the ancient history that is known on Worlderos, not the ancient history that was ancient to the ancients. If that makes sense.

The idea of two Long Night's has been discussed before, and if I recall correctly the calculations last time around suggested a Long Night recurrence rate of once every 8,000 years.

OP, I'll be back to read your post more in-depth and offer some thoughts tomorrow.

I definitely think that there has been two Long Nights.   The one that the Rhoynish experienced could have also been from the one that happened in Westeros, I would imagine.  We don't get an exact date on how many thousands of years this occurred though.  The only reason I kinda think it could could have been the one connected in Westeros is because the Valyrians came to power basically right after the Long Night in Westeros- so they could have known that the Ice Magic was vanquished or dormant if they caught wind about what happened with the Rhoyne.

[OberynBlackfyre]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sure that does make sense. But that isn't what the OP said. The OP said that the first Long Night was the one that happened when the GEotD fell, and the second was the one in Westeros with the Others. This directly contradicts TWOIAF.

There may have been previous Long Nights in the past, but I doubt it, and we have no evidence there were any others in the distant past, or that another one is even coming in the current story. It strikes me as a one-time event, caused by some crazy thing like a giant meteor impact or something along those lines. I wouldn't be surprised if Planetos has gone through ice ages and significant climate change over long periods of time like Earth, but I am betting that the Long Night 1.0 or something related to it is what made the seasons go crazy and it is not a naturally recurring event.

mmm I hear what you're saying but i don't think it contradicts what it says in TWOIAF.  We know that "A" Long Night happened in The Great Empire of Dawn, then we know of "A" Long Night affecting Westeros.  However as George even says Essos does NOT connect with Westeros.  So why would the Long Night of the Dawn Emmpire affect Westeros?  Especially in an area that came from the North......if it was from the Empire of the Dawn wouldn't it have to come from the East or West?

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

mmm I hear what you're saying but i don't think it contradicts what it says in TWOIAF.  We know that "A" Long Night happened in The Great Empire of Dawn, then we know of "A" Long Night affecting Westeros.  However as George even says Essos does NOT connect with Westeros.  So why would the Long Night of the Dawn Emmpire affect Westeros?  Especially in an area that came from the North......if it was from the Empire of the Dawn wouldn't it have to come from the East or West?

Not if the Long Night fell in Westeros from the North, and members of the Empire of the Dawn possibly expelled from Westeros as the text seems to imply, may have carried all these legends back to the lands in the East. All we can tell about the east is that dark magic was practiced there and that there is an area similar in that its a sort of dead lands where scary things exist. No evidence to say the Others ever walked in Essos. Just that the Winter effected them. 

[OberynBlackfyre]

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not if the Long Night fell in Westeros from the North, and members of the Empire of the Dawn possibly expelled from Westeros as the text seems to imply, may have carried all these legends back to the lands in the East. All we can tell about the east is that dark magic was practiced there and that there is an area similar in that its a sort of dead lands where scary things exist. No evidence to say the Others ever walked in Essos. Just that the Winter effected them. 

Mmm there is total evidence that if not the White Walkers, than something similar was there.  The Grey Wastes are known as a frigid dessert, and there is supposedly a town of Bloodless Men (very very pale) that made a city of human bones.  That definitely sounds like the Others, or some FORM of them.  

Also the text is more in line with something happening in the ESSOS and being expelled into WESTEROS, rather than vice versa.  Which is what I essentially point out in the theory.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think this theory could possibly fit into @LmL theory of there being two swords.  Dawn and Ice.  One wielded by the Last Hero- Brandon the Builder possibly, and whoever the first Sword of the Morning was.

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Mmm there is total evidence that if not the White Walkers, than something similar was there.  The Grey Wastes are known as a frigid dessert, and there is supposedly a town of Bloodless Men (very very pale) that made a city of human bones.  That definitely sounds like the Others, or some FORM of them.  

Also the text is more in line with something happening in the ESSOS and being expelled into WESTEROS, rather than vice versa.  Which is what I essentially point out in the theory.

Well certain aspects sound similar but different and possibly not the same. Similarly the Grey plague sounds similar but different.

 As far as the frigid desert. Maybe, the cold lands in Westeros dont extend that far south though. And the Long Night only came as far south as the joining of the Selhoru on the Rhoyne. That would mean the cold during the long night stopped around Stygai and Asshai. If i were to venture the thing happening out there was the dragons creation possibly to fight the Long Night, or that's what tipped the CotF into getting drastic and creating the Others. 

I definitely think the grey waste and Asshai are associated with scary ooggily boogilies, but i associate them more with the Fire side of things. The frigid desert just sounds like a high desert. This tripped me out when i moved from Alaska to Vegas and woke up to snow one morning and discovered their cold winter night's compared to the friggin hot days and extremely hot summers haha 

That's just my take on the evidence though  

[OberynBlackfyre]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well certain aspects sound similar but different and possibly not the same. Similarly the Grey plague sounds similar but different.

 As far as the frigid desert. Maybe, the cold lands in Westeros dont extend that far south though. And the Long Night only came as far south as the joining of the Selhoru on the Rhoyne. That would mean the cold during the long night stopped around Stygai and Asshai. If i were to venture the thing happening out there was the dragons creation possibly to fight the Long Night, or that's what tipped the CotF into getting drastic and creating the Others. 

I definitely think the grey waste and Asshai are associated with scary ooggily boogilies, but i associate them more with the Fire side of things. The frigid desert just sounds like a high desert. This tripped me out when i moved from Alaska to Vegas and woke up to snow one morning and discovered their cold winter night's compared to the friggin hot days and extremely hot summers haha 

That's just my take on the evidence though  

oh yeah I mean I essentially think we agree on most parts, just differ more so about where these events actually started/  I think the Great Empire of Dawn, which was seated around where Assai/Shadowlands and the Grey Waste are now is essentially where the imbalance of Ice and Fire began.  Thats why you have the Grey Waste being from the Ice catastrophe and Assai/Stygai being the fallout from the Fire side of the catastrophe.  Then the remaining people that now had no inhabitable home left and possibly became the Valyrians, but some went even farther West with the First Men (possibly displaced because of the invading Dawnians taking over what turned into Valyria) and they then settled in Westeros

[AlaskanSandman]

59 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

oh yeah I mean I essentially think we agree on most parts, just differ more so about where these events actually started/  I think the Great Empire of Dawn, which was seated around where Assai/Shadowlands and the Grey Waste are now is essentially where the imbalance of Ice and Fire began.  Thats why you have the Grey Waste being from the Ice catastrophe and Assai/Stygai being the fallout from the Fire side of the catastrophe.  Then the remaining people that now had no inhabitable home left and possibly became the Valyrians, but some went even farther West with the First Men (possibly displaced because of the invading Dawnians taking over what turned into Valyria) and they then settled in Westeros

Yea i think we definitely see eye to eye on most things  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

members of the Empire of the Dawn possibly expelled from Westeros as the text seems to imply,

Can you quote where the text seems to imply this?

[LordImp]

I like it.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, LordImp said:

I like it.

thank you good sir!! I do admit I jumped off of a lot of what @LmL ha found and just kinda added and expanded on the Dawn Empire actions.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Can you quote where the text seems to imply this?

As their seems to be remnants left behind by them and no clear sign of them. 

Dragons roosted on Battle Isle till the first Hightowers put and end to them.

Davos the dragon Slayer

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saving Daeryssa from dragon Urrax.

Just to name some. Untill we know that those dragons are literal dragons, it's a possibility, 

Assuming they are real dragons, who had them? 

Every one want's to follow hair and eye colors yet Martin has clearly stated youd have better luck following names.

Stark, Tallhart (Tall Heart), Wull, are all short and simple names.

Lannister, Arryn, Corbray etc.

Aegon, Daenerys, Viserys, Etc. 

Notice anything yet?........No? Ok. Daeryssa......... AE........ only used by Valyria. Should not exist in Westeros back then. I mean there's more i could go with but i think that's enough. 

People can argue it all they want. People on here still argue whether or not any families actually tie to the Empire of the Dawn of anything. There is evidence though that can be construed as them having a presence in Westeros and possibly being kicked out. 

[Reekazoid]

11 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Lots of people. The main piece of evidence is the sheer size of Asshai, purportedly big enough to fit KL, Volantis, Qarth, and Oldtown inside its walls, which is absolutely enormous. And we know of no other empires in the area that would justify having built such a large city.

I always thought it was much closer to the ancient Mesopotamian empires like Babylon rather than China. But I am certainly not a history expert so that's up for debate.

Some Mesoamerican cultures built ceremonial temple cities that were as large or larger than their actual political seats of government, sometimes due to the location being better for astronomy or what have you, even if they weren't as good for trade or military defense. 

 

I dont think anyone should get too hung up on whether it was the actual capital vs. just an important, if somewhat remote, city.