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Theda Baratheon

Outlander II: Sing me a Song...

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A continuation of the last thread which reached  400+ posts here.

To continue on the theme of Claire and Frank being unhappy in their marriage. 

Yes. they were. But I suppose you have to think of the good things that would stop them from separating as well. 

Name, Brianna. Frank can't have children and he already dearly loves Brianna and is firmly her father. Why would he leave Claire when he has Brianna? It's the late 40s, early 50s and not 2017. Also, Frank knows that Claire is ON HER OWN. Yes, she's a self sufficient and intelligent woman, fiercely so. But she's also lost, no longer comfortable in this ''time'' and has no friends and family and a young child to raise. 

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2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A continuation of the last thread which reached  400+ posts here.

To continue on the theme of Claire and Frank being unhappy in their marriage. 

Yes. they were. But I suppose you have to think of the good things that would stop them from separating as well. 

Name, Brianna. Frank can't have children and he already dearly loves Brianna and is firmly her father. Why would he leave Claire when he has Brianna? It's the late 40s, early 50s and not 2017. Also, Frank knows that Claire is ON HER OWN. Yes, she's a self sufficient and intelligent woman, fiercely so. But she's also lost, no longer comfortable in this ''time'' and has no friends and family and a young child to raise. 

Glad to see the thread continuing.

 

I agree with everything you said. I think Frank loves Claire though, or as someone said in previous thread loves the idea of her.

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14 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Glad to see the thread continuing.

 

I agree with everything you said. I think Frank loves Claire though, or as someone said in previous thread loves the idea of her.

Yeah; she's beautiful, intelligent and strong willed. I think these are all qualities he admires about her and I think it would be unfair on frank to say he just wants a beautiful docile housewife.  I don't think he does. 

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Partly, but no small part at all, for anyone who is in a relationship -- they are both displaced Brits, who both experienced a very intense, active WWII.  Even today we see how WWII experience draws the Brits together, even among generations that were very young or not yet born.

And now they're in the USA where the WWII experience was rather different -- significantly that the US never experienced direct attacks, invasions or even the level of privations that so many Brits did.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yeah; she's beautiful, intelligent and strong willed. I think these are all qualities he admires about her and I think it would be unfair on frank to say he just wants a beautiful docile housewife.  I don't think he does. 

Yes ! You can see this very early on in the first ep when they arrive in Scotland.

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It's also, on Claire's side, her understanding that Frank, in NO WAY, is responsible for any of it.  

Yet her entire passion is for another man.

The grandest fantasy infidelity ROMANCE ever.

Gabaldon made it work, and she made it work through the multi-faceted character of all of the triangle: Claire, Frank, Jamie.

Trust me folks, I'm not a fan of infidelity, but I'm pretty much in awe of how this worked -- I can't blame anyone for anything.  Thus ROMANCE, Destinty, Fate, Soul Mates,  all those words that people who cheat on their marriage partners use as an explanation -- it actually works in this context.

In real life, of course, not so much.

By situating her characters upon the vast tides of history --  Time Travel -- Gabaldon has us pulling for them all (her chosen good guys, of course -- but even the very evil ones have their purpose in this great romance).

This was pretty special imagination and writing on Gabaldon's part. (If we don't look too very carefully, maybe?)

 

 

Edited by Zorral

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10 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yeah; she's beautiful, intelligent and strong willed. I think these are all qualities he admires about her and I think it would be unfair on frank to say he just wants a beautiful docile housewife.  I don't think he does. 

What attracted Frank to Claire is her strength and intelligence. I consider myself a regular type man and that is what attracts me to Claire. 

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She's a terrific companion, for better and for worse, in sickness and in health, for joy and delight, for sorrow and pain.  She is a person with whom one can laugh and with whom one can cry.  She is so present.  Which is where the tragedy is now, for Frank.  She's not present any longer.

 

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This show is way too good to not have a thread running in the beginning of the season...lol

In regards to Claire and Frank... it all boils down to one truth in every relationship, no matter how hard someone tries to coerce certain feelings out of another.... even if they do so the right way --like Frank-- who is only changing himself in hopes that Claire will respond favorable to his selfless devotion to her ... in the end, the heart wants what the heart wants... 

... and Claire will always want Jaime.

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1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

This show is way too good to not have a thread running in the beginning of the season...lol

In regards to Claire and Frank... it all boils down to one truth in every relationship, no matter how hard someone tries to coerce certain feelings out of another.... even if they do so the right way --like Frank-- who is only changing himself in hopes that Claire will respond favorable to his selfless devotion to her ... in the end, the heart wants what the heart wants... 

... and Claire will always want Jaime.

That is just so sad for me. I mean, the episode went through the possibility of some long-term "I-will-grow-to-love-you-again" motif, to all of that shattered with the sex scene, and just when I thought they found a way to work it out, bam, separate beds. On the rewatch, it did make more sense than it initially did for me, but I am still saddened that poor Frank will never truly know what Claire did. Deep, passionate, all-consuming, love.

Now, since the occasion demands, I have to quote one of the best TV characters...

Quote

I believe in rules and traditions and playing our part, but there is something else: I believe in love. I mean, brilliant careers, rich lives are seldom led without just an element of love.

Dowager Countess of Grantham

That is what is sad about poor Frank. He lacks that little element. To be loved as his wife is.

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57 minutes ago, Risto said:

That is just so sad for me. I mean, the episode went through the possibility of some long-term "I-will-grow-to-love-you-again" motif, to all of that shattered with the sex scene, and just when I thought they found a way to work it out, bam, separate beds. On the rewatch, it did make more sense than it initially did for me, but I am still saddened that poor Frank will never truly know what Claire did. Deep, passionate, all-consuming, love.

Now, since the occasion demands, I have to quote one of the best TV characters...

That is what is sad about poor Frank. He lacks that little element. To be loved as his wife is.

But he does love his daughter, and that's entirely his choice.  I admire him.

Speaking as one who may well be smug etc. because of being so very pleased with how happily my all consuming romantic love affair turned out -- great passion does indeed evolve into some other kind of love that one can't even imagine until it happens -- and it is so happy! -- but more to the point, this evolved kind of love does happen to a very large number of people who are partnered with the same person for a significant amount to time -- a great consuming SEXUAL ROMANCE is NOT the be all and end all of life.

That's what's sad for Frank, is that he's not going to have that either.  But he does have his daughter and his career and well, whatever other gratifications and satisfactions of a life well spent.  He and Claire would have had that great happiness -- if Jamie and traveling in time had not broken their lives into a before and after even more significantly than WWII did.

Frank is a terrific character, and I, at least, really liked him.

Edited by Zorral

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haha, this last episode addresses and pretty much resolves all the main topics discussed here (the story pacing, the Claire-Frank relationship)

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15 hours ago, Corvinus said:

haha, this last episode addresses and pretty much resolves all the main topics discussed here (the story pacing, the Claire-Frank relationship)

LOL... right... "Alright, enough of this... let's wrap this sub plot up." 

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Man, I feel even worse for Frank now. That was . . . abrupt. As frustrating as the Claire/Frank scenes have been for me, I though last night's episode was very well done. Jaime's story is slowly progressing as well. Maybe not as quickly as I had hoped, but I'm more than content settling for the long shots of the beautiful Scottish countryside.

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5 hours ago, Astromech said:

Man, I feel even worse for Frank now. That was . . . abrupt. As frustrating as the Claire/Frank scenes have been for me, I though last night's episode was very well done. Jaime's story is slowly progressing as well. Maybe not as quickly as I had hoped, but I'm more than content settling for the long shots of the beautiful Scottish countryside.

Agree. I also really felt bad for Frank and actually surprisingly very little empathy for Claire until the final scene. 

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On 9/24/2017 at 1:11 AM, Zorral said:

But he does love his daughter, and that's entirely his choice.  I admire him.

Yes, I think the Episode 3 clarifies what actually happened. I was more baffled to why they are still together, completely forgetting Brianna. That said, yes, it is truly admirable that he loved her as his own, never even thinking about Jaime (at least, not that we have seen it). It is love so few are truly capable of.

I will miss Tobias Menzies... Now that both of his characters are dead, he is truly gone. He was really excellent piece of the puzzle.

Couple of things that I disliked in American storyline. First, I hated Claire being "punished" for being working mother. It is becoming a cliche in the American TV/movies. I wish one would stop using that every time there is a working mother involved. Second thing was Claire's reaction to Frank's romantic liaison. I understand that she felt angry to have had to deal with her on such important day for her, but I feel that she was truly jealous. And in her situation, I find that rather selfish. Frank's death was done TOO conveniently. It did make me sad.

As for Scotland... Per usual, it was for more interesting than America. I really enjoyed Mr Gray and his storyline, until that unfortunate incident. The moment he touched his hand (well, since he told the story about his dead friend), I knew it won't end well. But, as uncomfortable the scene was, I have to say it was acted perfectly. You could see poor Jaime going through the memories of his rape. Poor Grey couldn't have known that. It reminded me of what I heard somewhere about how homosexuals lived in the world where they only have clues. That it was a subtle game of reading signs, and that it took a great courage to act upon the interpretation of those signs. So, can you imagine what leap of faith Grey had to make here? Rejection is one thing, but opening to someone in that way and having that sort of result must have been devastating. I really wish we see more of him. 

And, we had our fun time... It seems that next episode will be featuring that wooden darling that played Brianna last season :D

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17 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yes, I think the Episode 3 clarifies what actually happened. I was more baffled to why they are still together, completely forgetting Brianna. That said, yes, it is truly admirable that he loved her as his own, never even thinking about Jaime (at least, not that we have seen it). It is love so few are truly capable of.

 

Really?  People love their kids all the time.  Yes, even their adopted children.

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Really?  People love their kids all the time.  Yes, even their adopted children.

I am not arguing that people are unable to love the adopted children. I am saying that it is impressive (well, at least for me) that his love is unconditional, especially having in mind that Brianna, after all, is adulterous love child of his wife. We are on a website dedicated to the series in which a lot has been said about woman who couldn't have made herself love her husband's bastards. So, yes, it is special. 

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

I am not arguing that people are unable to love the adopted children. I am saying that it is impressive (well, at least for me) that his love is unconditional, especially having in mind that Brianna, after all, is adulterous love child of his wife. We are on a website dedicated to the series in which a lot has been said about woman who couldn't have made herself love her husband's bastards. So, yes, it is special. 

These scenarios aren't comparable in the least.  Briana's existence doesn't threaten the livelihood of any other child, Claire didn't choose to leave Frank when she fell through the rocks, and so on.  Furthermore, we already know that Frank was infertile.  When he chose to stay with Claire and told her the baby would be raised as his, there is zero surprised that he, you know, loved the child.  

You mention upthread about some cliche of working women.  This right here where you constantly give super credit to a man who chose to do something and then followed through on the very basics of that choice is a major cliche.  It's gross.  Wow, he loved his child?!  It's the very least he's required to do as a parent. 

Edited by Dr. Pepper

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