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Bakker LI - The Darkness That Lies Ahead (TUC Spoilers!)


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13 hours ago, Callan S. said:

For your sake I do hope that was a deliberate misreading of my post, even if it was attempting snark. But I can't be sure.

Maybe I'm being too obtuse? You started talking about Die Hard and Cooties and no one in this thread knows what you were on about, see @Let's Get Kraken above.

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Continuing my reread. As a denizen of the Phoenix metro, I love the Khemema chapter in TWP. 

I'm surprised that Kellhus shouted out to his father upon reaching Enathpaneah, as it could have raised suspicions among the Holy War concerning his true motives. Definite evidence that he's not as rational as he perceives himself. Perhaps the heat got to him. Bakker might have just wanted to allude to Paul's THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKENED moment from the Dune film, of course. If I recall correctly, Kellhus confided in Esmi about his father to a certain degree prior to her knowing his Dunyain identity as well.

Currently wondering if Wutteat will show up under the No-God's control in the new series. Judging by Seswatha's dream, it seems like wracu retain their individuality when the No-God is awakened instead of becoming a collective horde like Sranc.

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8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Maybe I'm being too obtuse? You started talking about Die Hard and Cooties and no one in this thread knows what you were on about, see @Let's Get Kraken above.

That's fine, it just seems I read some kind of other book to everyone else. As if the romantic entanglement of Akka and Esme wasn't there. And dare I say it, there was a love triangle.

Didn't you (or someone) give the example of star ship troopers? As I understand the original novels they were kind of love letter to a facist regime. Where as the movie kind of parodied fascist regimes.

Have I lost you in saying that - I wouldn't think I have.

1. If I haven't lost you, can you see how the movie director changed the emphasis of the book?

2. Now everyone was suggesting changing male characters into women in a prince of nothing TV/movie adaption.

3. To me, it screws with themes - one of the most obvious is how can Mimara get pregnant by seducing female Akka? They just scissor that good?

4. I would suggest instead of changing genders (or even along with changing genders), do a massive emphasis shift like the star ship troopers movie did (heck, I'm kinda just chiming in with agreement with the posters who mentioned star ship troopers and its change).

5. An action movie is a massive emphasis shift. A romance movie is a massive emphasis shift. Both genres are pretty damn popular.

6. Changing Akka into a woman, just by itself, is not going to somehow make the movies ball bustingly popular. That's not gunna do it.

So hit me up on which number I start speaking some kind of moon language to ya'll. With #6 if you just disagree on that, that's fair enough - I think #6 is the case, but I've had my chance to say it so I'm happy with leaving it at that.

 

 

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I didn't mention Starship Troopers. I don't remember who did, and not to go too "um, actually" on you but Verhoven actually never read Starship Troopers, and in act the film started out as something completely separate until the movie company bought the rights to the book and decided about halfway through production that the film was now a Starship Troopers film.

(in fact they even change some of the characters, the few from the book, genders, haha).

Also not sure why we're talking movies, as last I heard it was a script for a pilot for some random tv network.

And yes, I'm pretty sure you did read a different book.

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On 9/25/2017 at 8:20 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Has anyone addressed the idea of NC's soul "bouncing" back from the outside when the NG was brought down the first time and winding up in Kelmomas?

Bakker says it's something about the structure of the Anasurimbor brain being able to replicate those of the original Inchoroi Insertant's.  So I don't think that li'l Kel has NC's soul.

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1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well Wracu have souls, right?

I'm not sure if products of the tekne can be ensouled. That being said, the vast differences in personality between Skuthula (the neckbeardiest of dragons), Wutteat (a hermit who enjoys trolling) and Skafra (speaks with ye olde english accent) indicate it might be so.

Speaking of Skafra, he indicates that the No-God has more thoughts beyond existential questioning, stating that he acknowledged the death of Celmomas; Kellhus made a similar statement when he confronted Aurang-as-Esmi in TTT, saying that the No-God would punish him for his failures. The religious significance Skafra attaches to the No-God is also interesting. Far from being a mere weapon, the No-God is viewed as a deity in its own right.

DR II, Kellhus' actions in TUC indicate he loves Esmi. He had no reason to save Kelmomas beyond appeasing her. I like MSJ's idea that Kellhus feels a love that we would find quite alien. Granted, this might be Ajokli influencing Kellhus; maybe Ajokli's a horny God, as the emphasis on his phallus in artwork suggests?  

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8 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well there was that one skinspy. Also we know now that the Inchoroi are products of the Tekne, right?

Man, completely failed to connect the Inchoroi to the ensoulment question. Thanks!

Hmmmm. I wonder what exactly is sent to hell when an Inchoroi dies and is damned, as this would reveal the identity of the soul. Is it the mind? Why do Inchoroi whatever it is and not Sranc? On a side note, I was actually surprised by the level of cognitive depth in the Sranc POV we got in WLW or TJE.

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I don't know why you would choose to adapt this series at all. If I had to list series that would be nigh impossible to adapt for TV this would make the top. Although they made Outlander into a series without changing anything, and people find it romantic, and ok I just threw up.

And they're trying to make a Dune film again.

 

So.

 

Hmm.

 

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20 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh and love triangle would imply Kellhus is in love with Esmi, which I find hilarious and disgusting.

Go find the part (one of the early books) where Esme is walking along the top of a high wall and falters, likely to fall to her death. Kellhus's heart rate goes up and he even asks from what darkness does this come from? Dunyain have vestigial emotions. It's part of their vestigial biases.

A theme of the books is how the Dunyain conditioning makes Kellhus basically abuse the woman he loves (loves about as much as he can, which is feebly compared to a world born). Yes, it is disgusting. Reframe him not just having an impersonal manipulator relationship to Esme all those years, but actually using her and leaving her to hate him - when as best he can, he loves her. Tragic as fuck, the obsession with the shortest path.

Dude, so much book you haven't read. Yet.

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20 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Second, to make a high magic series like TSA into an franchise would require a hell of a lot more money than the property's name recognition would justify.

Indeed. How would changing the gender of a few characters make any difference to that?

 

20 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

No, you daren't.

Nerve found, lol!

 

20 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

That's a plot point, not a theme.

I gave a blunt example because no one is daring actually naming a theme. Really it's an event. And themes ride upon events. Take away the event and the theme falls in the shit.

Can you name a theme of the books? Any?

 

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11 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Go find the part (one of the early books) where Esme is walking along the top of a high wall and falters, likely to fall to her death. Kellhus's heart rate goes up and he even asks from what darkness does this come from? Dunyain have vestigial emotions. It's part of their vestigial biases.

A theme of the books is how the Dunyain conditioning makes Kellhus basically abuse the woman he loves (loves about as much as he can, which is feebly compared to a world born). Yes, it is disgusting. Reframe him not just having an impersonal manipulator relationship to Esme all those years, but actually using her and leaving her to hate him - when as best he can, he loves her. Tragic as fuck, the obsession with the shortest path.

Dude, so much book you haven't read. Yet.

There are many parts where it is viable to believe Kellhus loves Esme. When talking to Moe and asks about losing Esme, he said, "His heart would crash to ruin.". I think it confirmed in TUC about keeping her ignorant, because she was his only Darkness. He loved Serwe and that's obvious from the Circumfixion. Is it a love like I have for my wife, I don't think so. But, it is a love, nonetheless. Where does Kellhus ever abuse Esme? I mean he doesn't show any emotion over the death of their children which could be a type of mental abuse, I suppose. But, when does he ever physically abuse Esme? Esme is driving mad because she understands the nature of the Dunyain and such and sees him for what he is. But, Kellhus has love for Esme, even if it's a different type of love than we're used to.

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10 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Okay, here's a good rule of thumb to go by. Ask yourself, could the feelings between these two characters also be used to accurately describe something like a pedophile grooming his victim, or a wife-beater gaslighting his partner.

If the answer to that question is anything other than a solid no, then the story you're reading is not a romance.

No. He manipulates Esme in the beginning to steal her from Akka. But, "His heart would crash to ruin" is from TTT and before any children are involved. The curcumfix changed Kellhus and showed himself he has those emotions, he felt for Serwe. He loved Esme, in his own Dunyain way. But, it was love, just the same. Is this story a romance? Not at all.

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Where does Kellhus abuse Esme?

Seriously?

Her entire arc and character is about being an abuse survivor. That despite living in a relationship she knows is loveless and that she is being manipulated at every turn she keeps fighting and moving on. 

The only difference between how Kellhus treats Esme and how Cnaiur treats serwe is that we don't have any on screen evidence of Kellhus beating her. Esme is his prize. 

As to Esme being Kellhus only darkness - we now know that the darkness that Kellhus thinks is his soul is ajokli. Kellhus thinks it can only be esme because he thinks too highly of his own spirit and can't comprehend that he is being taken over - so he attributes his feelings to the only thing he knows. 

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54 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No. He manipulates Esme in the beginning to steal her from Akka. But, "His heart would crash to ruin" is from TTT and before any children are involved. The curcumfix changed Kellhus and showed himself he has those emotions, he felt for Serwe. He loved Esme, in his own Dunyain way. But, it was love, just the same. Is this story a romance? Not at all.

After the circumfix, when he first started being manipulated by ajokli?

Also, 'his heart would crash to ruin' is not, as far as I can tell, actually in TTT. 

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