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Werthead

Rocket Man vs. Orang-Utan: Korean Krisis

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Looks to me like reunification is a key thing here, assuming NK is sincere in its wishes to go through with things. The whole point of the nukes seems to have been to push the US into a negotiation of sorts, the only other option being an act of aggression against what amounts to a third world country. It’s worked well if they are able to get sanctions lifted and start working towards some form of normality I’d say. But a lot rests on what Prez Orange Turd does in a the situation. That’s how things get screwed up I’d guess. 

The problem is that reunification of the two Koreas with their  differing  polical systems is unlikely .  If Kim ended up  in charge of reunified Korean Peninsula, he would quickly confiscate all the private corporations for the state and he would crush the political establishment in the south .  

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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14 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Josh Lyman: You know, can I say this? Why don't we just give the $60 billion to North Korea in exchange for not bombing us?

President Bartlet: It's almost hard to believe that you're not on the National Security Council.

Josh Lyman: I know, I feel like they're missing an important voice.

You're missing out on a kind of critical thing - which is that I want to pay off Kim Jong Un, not the entirety of North Korea. The biggest reason that Kim wants to stay in power and have nukes is to ensure that he doesn't have the same fate as Gaddafi and Hussein, and that's a reasonable fear. But if you can simply offer him an awesome lifestyle and life and let him just leave without issue while Korea becomes unified, he's got a good 'out'. It's like Marcos from the 80s all over again, or Noriega. 

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

You're missing out on a kind of critical thing - which is that I want to pay off Kim Jong Un, not the entirety of North Korea.

Yeah, still thought it was similar enough to be noteworthy.  Taking it seriously, I don't think it'd work.  Un could go off and have a pretty sweet life all on his own - look at his brother before Un, ya know, killed him.  And it's nothing like Noriega because we invaded and he was prosecuted and incarcerated.

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Kim can go do good on his own - but what he wouldn't have is the protection that the US can offer. His brother is an excellent example of why he needs something else - he can't just have a good life, he needs a good life and no fear of reprisal. 

There was some other random tinpot dictator that got off scot free back in the day, but I can't remember who. In any case, Marcos is a great example - he got flown to Hawaii and lived a lavish life mostly on our dime. 

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Just now, Kalbear said:

Kim can go do good on his own - but what he wouldn't have is the protection that the US can offer. His brother is an excellent example of why he needs something else - he can't just have a good life, he needs a good life and no fear of reprisal. 

There was some other random tinpot dictator that got off scot free back in the day, but I can't remember who. In any case, Marcos is a great example - he got flown to Hawaii and lived a lavish life mostly on our dime. 

Kim is criminal, the only the thing he deserves is a prison cell.

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I think the fear, and potential, of reprisal is the same in this hypothetical whether he worked out a deal with the US or did it on his own.  In the latter case, he could rely on his own chosen security detail rather than US agents.  Would he trust them more to protect him, or would he trust that no vengeance-seekers would want to go through US personnel?  I don't know.

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3 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Kim is criminal, the only the thing he deserves is a prison cell.

So? No one's talking about what they deserve. Do North Koreans deserve to be oppressed for years because you won't bargain?

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59 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You're missing out on a kind of critical thing - which is that I want to pay off Kim Jong Un, not the entirety of North Korea. The biggest reason that Kim wants to stay in power and have nukes is to ensure that he doesn't have the same fate as Gaddafi and Hussein, and that's a reasonable fear. But if you can simply offer him an awesome lifestyle and life and let him just leave without issue while Korea becomes unified, he's got a good 'out'. It's like Marcos from the 80s all over again, or Noriega. 

That's a long shot, but it's possible. There is the power of ruling, which he would lose, and really it has to be a plain deal: take this or die, whatever may come after that.

They'd presumably need to get some of the Kim family's cronies to turn on them, too. That way it can be posited that it's not just the US strong-arming them, but also North Korea beginning to turn against its dictator.

Really, though, this is wishful thinking. I can't imagine the Kims agreeing to relinquish power.

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11 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So? No one's talking about what they deserve. Do North Koreans deserve to be oppressed for years because you won't bargain?

Sad thing is it's not even the NK people who won't bargin and yet they are the ones suffering. It is their political "elite" who are doing all the bargaining and trying to throw their weight around, the general population is just stuck in a blinkered version of hell. I doubt they even know that talks have been suggested, or that reunification is really a thing. They probably only know (or are forced to know) that everywhere else is the enemy.

Reunification would be wonderful, but there is a huge mess to sort out were it to happen. SK is prosperous and safe and the people there are unlikely to want to pay for what is practically barely a 3rd world country to be dragged into the 21st Century.
And what would China think of all this? Would a unified Korea suddenly loose its US military presence, or would China suddenly find it has a direct land border with a strong US ally, with bases popping up all along the northern border?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So? No one's talking about what they deserve. Do North Koreans deserve to be oppressed for years because you won't bargain?

 

Kim is criminal and should face consequences for his actions and behavior and not be given a fat happy retirement if he leaves.

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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Why are your ideals more important than the suffering of 25 million people? Kim not getting what he deserves would be imo a small price to pay to prevent another child from starving to death.

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6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Why are your ideals more important than the suffering of 25 million people? Kim not getting what he deserves would be imo a small price to pay to prevent another child from starving to death.

You know the 'law and order' mentality.  Same worldview that has people defending the death penalty even when it's pointed out to them that innocent people are being executed as well, 'but justice...'

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Why are your ideals more important than the suffering of 25 million people? Kim not getting what he deserves would be imo a small price to pay to prevent another child from starving to death.

 Why should Kim  get a reward of a  golden parachute  just for the fact that he's willing  quit brutalizing his people and leaves ? You don't reward someone like him, you punish him.    You Can't Sweep Justice under the carpet because it become inconvenient .

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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5 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Why should Kim  get a reward of a  golden parachute  just for the fact that he's willing  quit brutalizing his people and leaves ? You don't reward someone like him, you punish him.  You can't just sweep justice under the carpet because it becomes impractical and inconvenient . 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Duvalier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

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Why should millions continue to suffer because we are unable to deal with someone by your standard of justice? Why is it better to keep an injustice happening then stop the injustice even if it means not being able to punish the person responsible?

Basically why does the criminal matter more to you than the victims?

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3 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Yes I know all of those creatures got to retire and escape the consequences  of their crimes.:(

Add to that Idi Amin whom  got  to live a fat happy retirement courtesy  of Saudi Arabia .

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2 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

 

Why should millions continue to suffer because we are unable to deal with someone by your standard of justice? Why is it better to keep an injustice happening then stop the injustice even if it means not being able to punish the person responsible?

Basically why does the criminal matter more to you than the victims?

Why doesn't the criminal seem matter to you ? 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 Why should Kim  get a reward of a  golden parachute  just for the fact that he's willing  quit brutalizing his people and leaves ? You don't reward someone like him, you punish him.    You Can't Sweep Justice under the carpet because it become inconvenient .

millions of people suffering isn't 'inconvenient'. 

4 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Why doesn't the criminal seem matter to you ? 

It does matter, but not as much as the 2 million people suffering horribly. Paying $1000 a person to end their suffering seems like a massive bargain, all told. 

Edited by Kalbear

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

millions of people suffering isn't 'inconvenient'. 

Then why can't China , the US and everyone else  intervene and depose Kim ? That would be one one solution, but that won't happed for practical  and political reasons.

What do principles mean anymore when all we seem to do is compromise them away?  You know  that alot of terrible things and decisions in History were done and justified all  in the name practicality  and expediency.

 

 

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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52 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Why doesn't the criminal seem matter to you ? 

Because it did not matter to Trump and the meeting is the U.S stating it is not important enough to preclude discussion on what is view as more critical issues that involves the U.S.

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