So was Jon Arryn's seed weak?

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

If he didn't have Lysa, he would have never planned to murder Jon. Everything Petyr has is due to Lysa and John. His position in Gulltown, his positions in king's landing etc. I can only imagine that if he did not have connections to the lord paramount of the vale, he would have ingratiated himself to someone else and used them as a ladder 

True.

[Damon_Tor]

On 9/26/2017 at 2:17 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I think it's ironic that Lysa thought Jon was talking about Sweetrobin when he said "The seed is strong." 

He may have been.

Look at Sweetrobin's hair color. Then look at Lysa and Jon's.

It would really be ironic if Jon had no idea about the Lannister incest at all: that his genetic research was to try to determine whether he had been cuckolded, Lysa murdered him because he had found out, and Littlefinger arranged for Ned to find his way to the twincest to hide the motive.

[Walda]

I don't think Jon Arryn was attempting to disinherit his heir on his deathbed. He wanted SweetRobin at Dragonstone, out of King's Landing, before Cersei had any reason to wish for a hostage from Lysa. And he knew he had run out of time, and he at least had the good fortune to have raised a heir for seven years to replace himself. A man of Jon Arryns age, with Jon Arryn's history, might think twice before putting aside an heir half raised, for one that he has not yet found the wife to create.

Before he died,

Quote

the lord had taken a great interest in the breeding of hunting hounds

(AGoT, Ch.27 Eddard VI)

And then he asked Pycelle for Malleon, and took a great interest in that.

A couple of comments mention SweetRobin's hair:

Quote

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, “Come to Mother, my sweet one.” She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. “Isn’t he beautiful?

(AGoT, Ch.34 Catelyn VI )

Quote

She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair. He does have pretty hair

(AFfC, Ch.41 Alayne II )

which we know does not match Lysa's

Quote

thick auburn hair

(AGoT, Ch.34 Catelyn VI )

and it seems likely that it did not match Jon Arryn's, either

Quote

Spoiler

Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose. (Alayne I)

 

(Winds of Winter)

Nor is it a match with Petyr Baelish's

Quote

 threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty.

(AGoT, Ch.18 Catelyn IV)

But it is a good match with the fine brown hair, brown eyes, and pug noses of House Strong, who had their share of paternity doubts of old

Quote

Rhaenyra was of the blood of the Dragon, and Ser Laenor likewise had the aquiline nose, fine features, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his own Valyrian heritage. Why, then, did Jacaerys have brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose? Many looked at them, and then at the hulking Ser Harwin Strong, now chief of the blacks, and Rhaenyra's constant companion, and wondered.

(A World of Ice and Fire)

I'm guessing there is some military advantage, or some prophecy about the seed of House Strong, that is lost on me, but known by the heirs of House Baratheon.

There is nothing in SweetRobin having Strong seed that would imply he is not Jon Arryn's child:- If we look at Jon Arryn's family tree, we can see that it is largely unknown, for hundreds of years, as has the Tully and Whent family trees. I'm guessing this is to obscure the many pure Targaryen matches both families have made, which are the root cause of the fertility issues that dogged both families.

SweetRobin is dragonseed, is one of the things that means, descended from the true heir of King Viserys I and Aemma Arryn, whose children were the last generation of Targaryens to hatch dragons.

There must be other implications, more complex to explain and of greater significance to the realm, given Jon Arryn's insistent determination to share this knowledge on his deathbed. Unfortunately, these were lost on Lysa and King Robert, and it would appear that, the minute it occurred to Pycelle to go back and check Malleon, he was brained by a reading candlestick, ruining at least the page that explains the mystery, if not the whole codex.

ETA: I don't think Jon Arryn had detected the Lannister incest in Malleon - that was so obvious a child of twelve could spot it - note it was Sansa, who had not read Malleon, who pointed it out to Eddard, who sincerely believed it would have taken his men "years to find this brothel" without Petyr Baelish's help. That is, Chataya's brothel, the most famous in King's Landing, with a secret tunnel connecting it to his own bedroom. Eddard is a bit slower on the uptake than most of the people who have seen Robert's bastards, is all.

ETA: Also, there is something odd about the way people go on about how low Petyr Baelish was. I mean, his father had a lordship, and a holding. It wasn't big, he was a hedge-knight's son, but still, he was a lord. Petyr was ambitious, but so was Lord Frey, when he sought the hand of Gemma Lannister for his non-heir son. People talk about Petyr Baelish as if he had been raised from the gutters of Myr, rather than the first-born son of a small but legitimate lordling.

Also a little odd that he was taken as a page by Hoster Tully, rather than a lord of the Vale. But Hoster took him willingly enough, it was no insult to his house to have the boy in his household, on equal footing with his own children. Also, Petyr's resentment over his being outranked by the Starks, seems a bit out of control. It was hypocritical of Hoster to send Petyr away because he didn't want anything to get in the way of the ambitious marriages he was making for his daughters, railing against Petyr's ambition as he did, but Petyr seems to have been young enough, subtle enough, and clever enough to both get over it, and to get the Lordship of Harrenhal, and (nominally) of the Riverlands, before marrying Lysa- and collecting the Vale and Ayrrn inheritance that Hoster had coveted, in the process. That he is still resenting the pride of the Lords Declarant and his own 'lowly' birth, seems a bit slow, a bit pathological - he is like Heathcliff, only when Heathcliff's origins are described as obscure, it means we can't be sure that he is not Cathy's half-brother. While with Petyr Baelish we know he is the legitimate heir of a small lordship in the Fingers.  

[Damon_Tor]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

Nor is [Robert Arryn's hair color] a match with Petyr Baelish's

"Brown" can be described as "dark" but even if you assume that wouldn't be the case, a gene for a lighter hair color can "hide" behind a more dominant gene.

 

[Graydon Hicks]

i like the theory that robin might be petry's, but he doesnt care for, because its not a child by the women he wanted. and as for robin's health issues, i read a theory that lysa consciously took some sort of drug, which robin would receive from breast feeding, or gave it to him directly, that kept him ill, fragile, and totally dependent, physically, mentally, and emotionally, on her. to fulfill her own dependency needs.

[nara]

On 9/26/2017 at 6:03 PM, Angel Eyes said:

 I'm actually part of the camp that believes that Littlefinger caused Robert's Rebellion by lying about the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, so Brandon would get himself killed. Petyr didn't intend for war to break out, but Brandon died, and he was fine with that.

As much as I like the idea that Petyr manipulated the situation to send Brandon to his death, I don't think it's possible.  After he was injured in the duel with Brandon (which would have had to happen before Lyanna disappeared because I doubt Brandon would pause to fight a duel before looking for his sister), Petyr was exiled back to the Fingers IIRC.  If so, he would not have been around to spread the rumor.

On 9/28/2017 at 3:43 AM, Damon_Tor said:

It would really be ironic if Jon had no idea about the Lannister incest at all: that his genetic research was to try to determine whether he had been cuckolded, Lysa murdered him because he had found out, and Littlefinger arranged for Ned to find his way to the twincest to hide the motive.

OMG.  This would be an awesome twist!  But I think Stannis has told us that it was about the Lannister incest.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, nara said:

As much as I like the idea that Petyr manipulated the situation to send Brandon to his death, I don't think it's possible.  After he was injured in the duel with Brandon (which would have had to happen before Lyanna disappeared because I doubt Brandon would pause to fight a duel before looking for his sister), Petyr was exiled back to the Fingers IIRC.  If so, he would not have been around to spread the rumor.

OMG.  This would be an awesome twist!  But I think Stannis has told us that it was about the Lannister incest.

Depends. How long does it take from Riverrun to the Fingers? Also depends on when Petyr dueled Brandon.

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Depends. How long does it take from Riverrun to the Fingers?

350 land miles by barge down the Red Fork to Saltpans.

40 miles a day - 9 days.

And then c.750 nautical miles by sea from Saltpans.

50 miles a day is an average speed - 15 days.

So 9+15=24 days.

Allowing for swift current/favoruable winds - 18 days?

Allowing for no current/unfavoruable winds - 30 days?