Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Cas Stark]

George RR Martin is about as clear as mud.  He has contradicted himself multiple times, changed his mind multiple times, and has admitted that he IS CHANGING his own story as a result of the show.  How anyone can feel confident that his original outline hasn't changed I can't understand.

[SecretWeapon]

On 9/4/2018 at 5:13 PM, Newstar said:

1993 Outline Sansa dying + 1993 Outline GRRM planning an ending and Stark succession without Sansa + GRRM sticking to the same ending since 1991 (as he has said before the outline leaked in 2014) = ASOIAF Sansa ending up dead or irrelevant to Stark succession

I realize that's a bitter pill to swallow, but better make your peace with it now.

looking forward to Jonarya taking down Mad King Jaime and Sansa's secret child with Joffrey being revealed in ToW an ADoS then lmao. 

or better yet, looking forward to your posts in 2019 where you claim LoWSansa is a "D&D invention"

[goldenmaps]

GRMM might take some elements of the outline, but he could have changed his mind.  I think that if he was sticking to the outline that maybe the books will be easier to write. 

I do think that D&D is sticking to an outline. 

[Juligen]

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

It's very interesting to me that the overlap between individuals who predict (or simply hope) that Sansa will be the endgame queen and the individuals who see Dany as the final villain is so very large.

It's almost as if there cannot be a scenario in which Sansa can "win" the game without Dany also dying tragically. It's almost as if one needs to write off Dany's character completely (in ways that make no sense to the narrative) in order to arrive at the rather far-fetched conclusion that Sansa could be queen. 

Of course, this view is completely incongruous with everything we saw on our TVs during Season 7. Not only did Daenerys have the support of three Great Houses coming into her invasion, she opted out of harming innocents at every opportunity, and confined her dragon power to the field of battle. 

Daenerys, when push comes to shove, has demonstrated herself as someone who is willing to forgo her personal desires for the good of all. Now that the focus is shifting to the Army of the Dead and the impending doom of the human race, I fail to see how Dany as a villainous figure could come to fruition. There's already a supernatural Big Bad: the Night's King. There's already two human arch villains in Cersei and Euron. The narrative is simply past the point where this could have been a thing. 

Let's face the facts: Dany is most likely pregnant with Jon's child. Per the House of the Undying, she will marry him as well. What with the R+L=J revelation, she will most likely be marrying him as Aegon Targaryen, bringing the story of House Targaryen back full circle. Jon and Dany are a united front, and will most likely remain such for the rest of the series. 

There is simply no room in this trajectory for a Sansa-Jon marriage, let alone romance. Sansa was not only not one of the original main characters, she also has no claim to the throne in her own right nor has she any reason to seek a marriage with her adopted brother/cousin. 

Can we all just put the lid on this Sansa/Jon thing? It's dead in the water. We might as well be making the case of Hot Pie as king.  At this point, if Dany dies before the end, Arya is the cousin/sister Jon is most likely to end up with. I see both scenarios as far-fetched at this point, but as textual evidence goes, Sansa is the least likely female character to end up in an incestuous relationship. 

On a separate note, I find the likelihood of Tyrion marrying and having legitimate issue very, very small. He's had an absolutely tortured love life so far, and I don't see that changing. 

Especially if he ends up becoming infatuated with Daenerys in the books, which I suspect he will.

Let's face it: he's not the paternal type, his emotional baggage when it comes to women is extreme, and I don't see anyone forcing him to marry ever again. A bachelor's life sounds about right for his character, and GRRM seems to gravitate toward lifelong bachelors in his other writings as well. In some ways, I see a parallel between a potential Jon/Dany/Tyrion love triangle and the triangle (or sorts) between a few of his characters in Fevre Dream. 

I totally get it that from my theories i get label as a Dany hater or Jonsa, or whatever, but believe it or not I started reading those books in 2011 and from book 1 I always thought that Jon and Dany would end up together in the Iron Throne and rule Westeros and restore their family; I saw it Sansa route more as an advicer or Lady of Winterfell. Than season 7 changed all that for me. 

First of all the show was going out of the way to show Sansa as a efficient Queen and diplomat who was able to calm down the Lords and keep the country at peace waiting for the king to return. That got me by surprise a lot. George does foreshadows Sansa being Queen when Ned tells Arya "You will marry a King and rule his castle", "No, Thats Sansa" . So I was a bit confused by this.

Than we had the romance between Jon and Dany and quite frankly it was disappointing. I dreamed with the scene where he would tell her about growing up motherless in Winterfell, or mention  Maester Aemon or telling her tales of her father Ned Stark, but nothing, nada. In fact Jon Snow doesnt make one single comment about himself to Daenerys. I get it that many people liked the romance, but for me it was flat, rushed and downright poor.

Last we had Daenerys,  I thought she would arrive in Westeros wise and mature, but I saw a queen that had to be restrained over and over to not use her dragons in Kings Landing even tho she knows the city is covered in wild fire. I expect her to apologise for her father's mistakes and actually be humble. That didnt happened. Then to make things worse Dany decides to burn alive the Tarllys, after they refused to bend the knee. Talk about political blunder. She spends 7 years telling us that she is not her father's daughter then decides to burn two High Lords, a father and a son together, just like her father did to Richard and Brandon Satrk, mind you this was the act that started the rebelion.

For me it was like, if Marie Antoinette  daughter, came back to France after the Revolution promising to not be like her mother, then  just after her first victory in French soil she started throwing cake at the defeated soldiers. I just didnt get it. This is terrible PR and she should know better by now.

I see now a lot of parallels between Dany and Stannis; both had the rightful claims to the Throne, both were grey characters but are trying to do good, both use fire to kill their enemies, both can be rutheless. Both burned alive a leader to make their followers to bend the knee, Stannis burned Mance and Dany burned the Tarllys. Stannis just like Dany had several defeats and decided to stop the Throne fight to go North save the realm, he also wanted the North to help him to defeat the Lannisters after he helped them with the Wildlings and the Boltons. For me its like history is repeating itself.

[Error-504]

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

My point was that invoking real world genetics as you tried to do is dumb, because GRRM doesn’t play by those rules when writing, and there are numerous examples of this. Nice try, though.

 

Oh, dear. 

The outline is proof that GRRM will never make Sansa any sort of queen. Whatever he does with her, she can’t end up with Winterfell, she can’t rule the North and she can’t be queen, because in his original ending those all went to someone else (members of his core five, no doubt) and he’s sticking with that ending. The outline is also proof that Sansa has never been nearly as important to GRRM as the core five, which of course many fans have intuited for a very long time, long before the outline was leaked. The fact that GRRM only came up with Sansa in the first place because he felt the other Stark siblings were getting along too well is also a big tell.

Maybe if he’s feeling very generous he’ll let her run off with the Hound and never be heard from again, leaving Jon and Dany to run Westeros, Tyrion to live a bachelor lifestyle unencumbered by an inconvenient wife, and Bran and/or Arya to run Winterfell. I doubt it, though. Sansa unlike Arya has never been a favourite of his and just like Catelyn, she was mean to or unappreciative of GRRM’s acknowledged faves (Arya and Tyrion). Catelyn had a hideously cruel death even by GRRM standards—dying watching her firstborn die before her eyes, believing all her children are either dead or good as dead—so I’m guessing Sansa will come in for similar treatment. 

What you mean is fans don't pay attention to real world genetics when prescribing to lame ideas and theory's with their fan-fiction and ideas of "Stark look". George was pretty spot on the one time he choose to incorporate it into the story, when Ned was looking into the the children of Robert and Cersie. 

[Juligen]

9 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

What you mean is fans don't pay attention to real world genetics when prescribing to lame ideas and theory's with their fan-fiction and ideas of "Stark look". George was pretty spot on the one time he choose to incorporate it into the story, when Ned was looking into the the children of Robert and Cersie. 

To be honest real life genetics dont work in the show or all the Starks would have Ned's hair, not Catelyn's red hair. George was just playing with the looks of the characters

[Error-504]

10 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Lol, I am not leaving this site, I quite like it. In fact when one this things that I always loved about ASOIAF was that theories were celebrated and gladly discussed. Than season 7 happened and all of sudden if you didnt believe Jon and Dany were to get married, have babies and rule Westeros together you were called a mad man or a hater.

The more I read the books the more certain I am that Daenerys will be a very tragic character in the end. I think that both Ice and Fire will destroy Westeros and her dragons will burn down Kings Landing. We have Bran's vision in season 6 of a dragon flying above Kings Landing (and we were told in the commentaries that this was supposed to be a very important vision) and we know that the underground of the city is full of wildfire; in the books George writes that "magic is a sword without a hilt" it can not be controlled completely.

Daenerys for me was written in parallel with Cersei, both were sold of to marriage by their families to seek power; both became queens very young; both became the mothers of 3 children; both decided to use their children to hold power, both love their child even tho they are monsters and are capable of great destruction. Cersei thought she could control Joffrey and use him to rule the 7 Kingdoms, we saw what happened in season 1. The same way Dany thinks she can control Drogon to get the Iron Throne. Savage beats cannot be controlled.

We even have Mirri Maz Duur on seaosn 1  telling Dany that she killed her son because he was going to be The Stallion That Will Mount the world,
 

But we know now that Dany herself is the Stallion who united all the Khalasars and rode them to the end of the world, bringing them to Westeros.

Besides, doesnt she has 3 fires to light up? One was the pyre that birth the dragons; another one was the fire that burned down the Dosh Khallen temple to unite the all the Khalasars, and what do you think will be the last one? Winterfell?

I dont think she will be a villain, but she will be seing as a villain by Westeros. The Queen of Ashes who brought dragons back and destroy the kingdom. Call me crazy, but it makes quite sense in my mind.

When people come up with these crazy fanfic theory's, they always fail to take into account the remaining run time the show has left. With three, maybe four episodes tied up with the WW's and the fight for survival, there isn't any time left to then spin Dany as a villain without the fanbase going WTF?

[Error-504]

12 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

To be honest real life genetics dont work in the show or all the Starks would have Ned's hair, not Catelyn's red hair. George was just playing with the looks of the characters

Again, that is a false statement. Ned could have had dark hair and been carrying a recessive gene. If what you said was true, then the whole point of Ned searching out Robert's bastards made zero sense. 

[SecretWeapon]

16 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

To be honest real life genetics dont work in the show or all the Starks would have Ned's hair, not Catelyn's red hair. George was just playing with the looks of the characters

nah that can happen irl. it's just quite unlikely. Same for Robert/Cersei case but she confirmed it herself so need didn't need to further investigate afterwards

[jcmontea]

 

Quote

Last we had Daenerys,  I thought she would arrive in Westeros wise and mature, but I saw a queen that had to be restrained over and over to not use her dragons in Kings Landing even tho she knows the city is covered in wild fire.

By over and over again you mean once? Also, its not clear that the wildfire is a problem otherwise that would have been brought up

Quote

I expect her to apologise for her father's mistakes and actually be humble. That didnt happened.

“My father was an evil man. On behalf of House Targaryen I ask your forgiveness for the crimes he committed against your family.”

“I hope I deserve it”

Quote

Then to make things worse Dany decides to burn alive the Tarllys, after they refused to bend the knee. Talk about political blunder.

Was their a political blunder? It looked like everyone bent the knee and it worked. Even the outline to the season said you can question her methods but they get the job done

Quote

She spends 7 years telling us that she is not her father's daughter then decides to burn two High Lords, a father and a son together, just like her father did to Richard and Brandon Satrk, mind you this was the act that started the rebelion.

Is burning an enemy general and traitor on the opposing side of a war who you offered to forgive or send to the wall really the same thing as burning a lord who was loyal to you when he came to see his son?

 

[Error-504]

2 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 

By over and over again you mean once?

“My father was an evil man. On behalf of House Targaryen I ask your forgiveness for the crimes he committed against your family.”

 

Was their a political blunder? It looked like everyone bent the knee and it worked

Is burning an enemy general and traitor on the opposing side of a war who you offered to forgive or send to the wall really the same thing as burning a lord who was loyal to you when he came to see his son?

 

I do wonder how Dany will be received by Sam though.....

[jcmontea]

4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

I do wonder how Dany will be received by Sam though.....

That is the question. Its def going to be a storyline. 

[Juligen]

59 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 

By over and over again you mean once? Also, its not clear that the wildfire is a problem otherwise that would have been brought up

“My father was an evil man. On behalf of House Targaryen I ask your forgiveness for the crimes he committed against your family.”

“I hope I deserve it”

Was their a political blunder? It looked like everyone bent the knee and it worked. Even the outline to the season said you can question her methods but they get the job done

Is burning an enemy general and traitor on the opposing side of a war who you offered to forgive or send to the wall really the same thing as burning a lord who was loyal to you when he came to see his son?

 

I get it that Richard and Brandon situation was different, what I am saying its the image she reflects with those acts. She burned two High Lords, a father and a son. When they tell the story in the North or around Westeros, the details wont matter.

The reason I believe that scene will be important in season 8 is because first they made sure to have Sansa remembering Richard and Brandon deaths in episode 2, then later we had Jon also mentioning to Dany that the Mad king burned his grandfather and uncle alive. Than in episode 5 we have Daenerys burning father and son. Lets be real, Dickon or Randy could have easily had died in battle, but the writers made sure that both survived and both were killed by Dany. 

Also the way that scene was written screamed Stannis Baratheon for me. I keep telling people, I am not getting a mad queen vibe from Dany, I am getting a Stannis vibe from her. She keeps repeating all his actions and attitutes. 

In season 5 we had Stannis fighting the Wildlings at the wall. Mance Ryder rebeled against the crown, and declared himself King beyond the Wall, he lead his army against Stannis  and in the end he was defeated. Later Stannis demanded Mance to bend the knee and proclaim him as the rightful king so that Mance's followers could do the same, Mance refused to do so and because of that he was burned alived. Jon Snow was so horrified by this, that he disobeyed Stannis and killed Mance with a arrow because it was less painful. 

Now, isnt the scene with the Tarlys pretty much the same thing? Like literally? The Tarlys rebeled against the Tyrells, proclaimed Cersei as their queen, lost the batlle and in the end refused to bend the knee to Daenerys. As I said, I never saw coming Stannis burning Sheeren alive, which is why I think something will happen that will make her take Drogon to Kings Landing. Maybe she will finally done with Tyrion mistakes.

 

[jcmontea]

13 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

I get it that Richard and Brandon situation was different, what I am saying its the image she reflects with those acts. She burned two High Lords, a father and a son. When they tell the story in the North or around Westeros, the details wont matter.

The reason I believe that scene will be important in season 8 is because first they made sure to have Sansa remembering Richard and Brandon deaths in episode 2, then later we had Jon also mentioning to Dany that the Mad king burned his grandfather and uncle alive. Than in episode 5 we have Daenerys burning father and son. Lets be real, Dickon or Randy could have easily had died in battle, but the writers made sure that both survived and both were killed by Dany. 

Also the way that scene was written screamed Stannis Baratheon for me. I keep telling people, I am not getting a mad queen vibe from Dany, I am getting a Stannis vibe from her. She keeps repeating all his actions and attitutes. 

In season 5 we had Stannis fighting the Wildlings at the wall. Mance Ryder rebeled against the crown, and declared himself King beyond the Wall, he lead his army against Stannis  and in the end he was defeated. Later Stannis demanded Mance to bend the knee and proclaim him as the rightful king so that Mance's followers could do the same, Mance refused to do so and because of that he was burned alived. Jon Snow was so horrified by this, that he disobeyed Stannis and killed Mance with a arrow because it was less painful. 

Now, isnt the scene with the Tarlys pretty much the same thing? Like literally? The Tarlys rebeled against the Tyrells, proclaimed Cersei as their queen, lost the batlle and in the end refused to bend the knee to Daenerys. As I said, I never saw coming Stannis burning Sheeren alive, which is why I think something will happen that will make her take Drogon to Kings Landing. Maybe she will finally done with Tyrion mistakes.

 

You realize Stannis Baratheon never would have made the decidion she made in 706? 

[Juligen]

1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

You realize Stannis Baratheon never would have made the decidion she made in 706? 

which one? going North to save Jon? 

[jcmontea]

5 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

which one? going North to save Jon? 

Yes. Stannis would have let him die. 

[TheSlayerofLies]

21 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I realized, a long time ago, that I am reading and watching a differrent show than lots of people. Because in my books, Sansa has been groomed to be a queen since book 1. Like, I no even have a doubt in my mind.

Her entire arc in the books is about learning the political game and experiencing life in Westeros. She grew up in the North, went to Kings Landing, later spends time in the Vale. Thats 3 very important regions of the Kingdom that she has experience and she still has personal connections with Riverland. Sansa also lived as a High born Lady, a hostage of war and as a bastard girl, she has experienced very different situations of life in Westeros.

In Kings Landing she was able to watch closely people like Tywin, Cersei, Jofreey, Varys and she was able to see how to act and most important, how not to act as a ruler. Her chapters in the Vale are also very good and Littlefinger is teaching her to be political savy, and use diplomacy to solve conflicts and problems, you know, one would think that diplomacy is actually a quality expected in a ruler. 

That is seriously your argument for how Sansa "has been groomed to be queen"?  That'd be like the equivalent of me saying that Dany has been groomed to elite at physical combat.  She's been able to watch people like Drogo, Jorah, Greyworm, Ser Barristan, Daario, and Jon Snow closely, and she was able to learn and really master swordplay.    But no, there's no arc there.  Dany doesn't have missteps and triumphs based upon physical combat; her mistakes and victories come in the form of her being a leader/ruler.  Likewise, when we analyze Sansa's arc for what it is, we realize that her arc has very little with being a leader or a queen and more to do about her home and family.  Her mistakes in season 1 were to go against her family, she then later aided in reclaiming her home and reestablished her relationships with her siblings (Arya, Jon, Bran).  You can really track her growth in that regard.  How can you possibly suspect that her arc is about queenhood when her arc has never focused on that?  Even in S7, when she does a fine job managing Winterfell, it's obvious that's not the focus of her story, rather it's about her relationships with Arya and Littlefinger.

[Juligen]

1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

Yes. Stannis would have let him die. 

Maybe, Danny did developed  feelings for Jon. But as I said, their paths are quite similar, which for me is a bad sign for Dany

[Juligen]

23 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

That is seriously your argument for how Sansa "has been groomed to be queen"?  That'd be like the equivalent of me saying that Dany has been groomed to elite at physical combat.  She's been able to watch people like Drogo, Jorah, Greyworm, Ser Barristan, Daario, and Jon Snow closely, and she was able to learn and really master swordplay.    But no, there's no arc there.  Dany doesn't have missteps and triumphs based upon physical combat; her mistakes and victories come in the form of her being a leader/ruler.  Likewise, when we analyze Sansa's arc for what it is, we realize that her arc has very little with being a leader or a queen and more to do about her home and family.  Her mistakes in season 1 were to go against her family, she then later aided in reclaiming her home and reestablished her relationships with her siblings (Arya, Jon, Bran).  You can really track her growth in that regard.  How can you possibly suspect that her arc is about queenhood when her arc has never focused on that?  Even in S7, when she does a fine job managing Winterfell, it's obvious that's not the focus of her story, rather it's about her relationships with Arya and Littlefinger.

Sansa arc has never been about being a queen? Did I miss the pilot epsiode when she was betrothed to the heir of the Throne  when she was 11 and has been called the key to the North since season 2? Yes, her Stark family is a huge point in her arc, but I dont think its a coincidence that she has lived in 3 different regions of the country and has been educated by Littlefinger about how to play the Game of Thrones. 

Also, the fact that she spent years in Kings Landing is important, when you watch closely leaders and advisers make bad decisions or even good decisions involving ruling and the management of the kingdom you can't help but to learn about those decisions. Also may I point out that no all decisions or ideas made by Jofrey, Tywyn or Cersei may have been terrible. For example Joffrey was the only one who actually was worried about Daenerys Targeryen and Tywyn told him to not worry about her, that was smart from Joffrey.

[jcmontea]

20 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

That is seriously your argument for how Sansa "has been groomed to be queen"?  That'd be like the equivalent of me saying that Dany has been groomed to elite at physical combat.  She's been able to watch people like Drogo, Jorah, Greyworm, Ser Barristan, Daario, and Jon Snow closely, and she was able to learn and really master swordplay.    But no, there's no arc there.  Dany doesn't have missteps and triumphs based upon physical combat; her mistakes and victories come in the form of her being a leader/ruler.  Likewise, when we analyze Sansa's arc for what it is, we realize that her arc has very little with being a leader or a queen and more to do about her home and family.  Her mistakes in season 1 were to go against her family, she then later aided in reclaiming her home and reestablished her relationships with her siblings (Arya, Jon, Bran).  You can really track her growth in that regard.  How can you possibly suspect that her arc is about queenhood when her arc has never focused on that?  Even in S7, when she does a fine job managing Winterfell, it's obvious that's not the focus of her story, rather it's about her relationships with Arya and Littlefinger.

I think you nailed it. 

If you really analyze her arc in terms of beliefs which at the end of the day is the centerpiece of a character arc, ruling just has nothing to do with it. 

In conrast to Dany who every character arc is centered around ruling.