Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Arya Greyjoy]

6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I keep telling people that Sansa will be the Queen in the end. She will marry her cousin Aegon Targaryen, there is lots of foreshadowing in the books about their romance and the show did put a lot of effort and care on JOn and Sansa scenes, they were even shot with some nuances and romatic overtones.

 

Daenerys will be the final antagonist burning KL to the ground, that was her endgame in the first outline and it is still teh same now.

Jon is not in love with Sansa or Sansa is in love with Jon. Assume it at once because you are obsessed. Although you insist on the same in all forums, the reality is going to hit you in the nose when the season ends.

[Arya Greyjoy]

@freerider

Jon is not in love with Sansa or Sansa is in love with Jon. Assume it at once because you are obsessed. Although you insist on the same in all forums, the reality is going to hit you in the nose when the season ends.

[Bear Claw]

9 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

 

I will only post my theories in the next weeks because I am finishing re watching the whole show from season 1. I am making notes in every episode and paying attention to when they change from one scene to another, but I am alreay have SO MUCH foreshadowing from the show that Dany will destroy  KL and be the queen of ashes that its blowing my mind. They literally have been telling us from season 1.

I am looking forward to your post!

[Juligen]

7 hours ago, Arya Greyjoy said:

@freerider

Jon is not in love with Sansa or Sansa is in love with Jon. Assume it at once because you are obsessed. Although you insist on the same in all forums, the reality is going to hit you in the nose when the season ends.

lol, nahh. Once you realize that Daenerys is a red herring and remove her from the story is actually quite simply to see the end. Arya and Sansa are the heroines of this story.

 

I believe both will be queens; Sansa queen of the 7 kingdoms and Arya queen in the North. Dany is destrying KL  in the end.

[Arya Greyjoy]

Hace 8 horas, prettylongclaw dijo:

jajaja, nahh. Una vez que te das cuenta de que Daenerys es una pista falsa y las eliminaciones de la historia, en realidad es bastante simple, es el final. Arya y Sansa son las heroínas de esta historia.

 

Creo que ambas sean reinas; Sansa reina de los 7 reinos y Arya reina en el norte. Dany está destripando un KL al final.

I have not talked about Daenerys but about Sansa and Jon. Although Sansa was queen, Jon will not marry her because he does not love her.

 

The false track of Daenerys has lasted eight seasons and that is not the issue. Daenerys I do not care.

[Newstar]

Rumours of a big NK-on-Viserion vs. Dany-on-Drogon battle taking place in the last episode.

Apparently, what's been filmed on the KL exterior set over the past two months is the climactic KL battle. What's being filmed now is a huge sequence with 600 extras of all ethnicities and ages (both men and women), and lots (and lots and lots) of fire. Source.

My best guess at who's still filming (by character): Jon, Arya, Davos, Tyrion, Sam, Gregor, Dany (although Emilia dyeing her roots brown is making me wonder)

The final wrap party is scheduled for June 30th (this coming Saturday) with all former cast members.

[Coyote_Durango]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:21 PM, Dragon in the North said:

As for D&D searching for fan theories, I don’t think that’s true. I’m not sure which plot points from the show you think are just fan theories, but there are many mysteries and revelations I believe will appear in the books, though plot points will probably differ.

The scene that really confirmed it for me was Arya giving Walder the Frey Pie. While the Frey Pie theory is pretty well known among book theorists and re-readers, it's not widely known elsewhere. The theory itself requires piecing together rather subtle, mundane clues scattered across several chapters in ADWD. It also requires understanding specific rules of guest right, which are furthermore scattered across the books in multiple POVs. What's more, the Frey pie theory doesn't lend much to the story outside of suggesting a deliciously twisted and vengeful side of Lord Manderly, so it's likely the theory will forever be left a mystery. Most first-time book readers wouldn't have noticed it in their first read through, and even less fewer would likely have caught it on their own without learning of it first from these forums. In fact, I think it would have been quite impressive if D&D put it together without reading fan theories, as they'd have matched some of the cleverest readers out there.

And let's not forget the elephant in the room that is R+L=J. That's a fan theory involving even more scattered clues and is still missing many critical details, yet they still sourced it anyway. So if we're supposed to really believe that D&D pieced together not just the Frey Pies but also the truth of Jon's parentage all without the help of published fan theories, then my name is Jinglebells.

[Juligen]

14 hours ago, Arya Greyjoy said:

I have not talked about Daenerys but about Sansa and Jon. Although Sansa was queen, Jon will not marry her because he does not love her.

 

The false track of Daenerys has lasted eight seasons and that is not the issue. Daenerys I do not care.

well, we agree on disagree. I have no doubt that they will marry and it will be for love because thats wha the books are telling me and thats what the show has hinted us too. 

 

As I said, I have no doubt both will be King and queen.

[lakin1013]

Keeping up with the posts here, and the rumors elsewhere, it is beginning to look like the big 5 (Jon, Arya, Sansa, Dany, and Tyrion) all live -- except Dany.  Dany is still a likely death, to my way of thinking.  Even her mode of transportation dates her :-)  If the magic that fuels the NK will be ended, then so will the dragons.

I do think the posts about Gendry being seen, and Lyanna Mormont filming supports the idea that a new government will be formed.  If Robert Arryn has also been seen, then clearly some type of new political system is being created. 

If all B plot level characters become legit rulers, the NK is ended, and the Big 5 live, then where is the bittersweet ending?  Is anybody else disappointed if this is the way it ends, at least on TV?

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Keeping up with the posts here, and the rumors elsewhere, it is beginning to look like the big 5 (Jon, Arya, Sansa, Dany, and Tyrion) all live -- except Dany.  Dany is still a likely death, to my way of thinking.  Even her mode of transportation dates her :-)  If the magic that fuels the NK will be ended, then so will the dragons.

I do think the posts about Gendry being seen, and Lyanna Mormont filming supports the idea that a new government will be formed.  If Robert Arryn has also been seen, then clearly some type of new political system is being created. 

If all B plot level characters become legit rulers, the NK is ended, and the Big 5 live, then where is the bittersweet ending?  Is anybody else disappointed if this is the way it ends, at least on TV?

No more magic? That’s pretty bittersweet; it’s similar to LOTR to be honest.

[Newstar]

5 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Keeping up with the posts here, and the rumors elsewhere, it is beginning to look like the big 5 (Jon, Arya, Sansa, Dany, and Tyrion) all live -- except Dany.  Dany is still a likely death, to my way of thinking.  Even her mode of transportation dates her :-)  If the magic that fuels the NK will be ended, then so will the dragons.

The big five has always been Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran, not Sansa.

If Dany's last scene on the show was filmed in Dubrovnik, as Architectural Digest claimed, Dany definitely doesn't die.

Emilia hasn't been filming the big KL battle scenes with Kit, Maisie, Liam and Peter, but since Dany is probably on the back of a dragon when this battle is happening on the ground, that's hardly surprising.

If the Seville day scenes are postwar scenes, then Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, and Bran (as well as Robin, Brienne, Sam, Davos and Gendry) are safe, but Jon and Dany are question marks, since Kit didn't film in Seville during the day, and Emilia didn't film in Seville at all. However, if Architectural Digest is correct, we can probably guess that Dany survives.

The only Team Stark character of the main cast who's a question mark based on the above assumptions about Seville and Dubrovnik is Jon. We know he survives at least until the big KL battle of 8x05 or 8x06, though.

Quote

 

I do think the posts about Gendry being seen, and Lyanna Mormont filming supports the idea that a new government will be formed.  If Robert Arryn has also been seen, then clearly some type of new political system is being created. 

 

It is possible that there was some sort of great council scene filmed during the day in Seville, but if so that would mean that Jon and Dany are out of the picture by the time that happens...Maybe by the time the great council rolls around Jon and Dany have already abandoned Westeros or gone into hiding or what have you.

What makes me think it was a postwar grand council, other than my skepticism that they would film winter scenes in heavy costumes in Seville May weather, is that Tobias Menzies (Edmure) was allegedly spotted with the rest of the cast on the flight returning from Seville, even though he hadn't been staying at the hotel with the main cast members and even though no one had seen him in Seville. Why would they keep his presence in Seville secret unless there was something spoilery about it? 

Along with Tobias Menzies, we have Lino Facioli (Robin) and Gemma Whelan (Yara) both in Seville when these scenes were being filmed. Lino made no secret of his presence, but Gemma wasn't seen at all and was only "outed" as being in Seville when she posted a photo that was taken in Seville. So between Edmure, Robin and Yara, those are three of the surviving lords/ladies ruling large regions (assuming Yara survives and Theon dies). Throw in Sam (Warden of the South assuming the NW is dissolved), Bran/Arya/Sansa (the North), Tyrion (Westerlands), Brienne (Tarth), and Gendry (Stormlands if he's legitimized), and that's pretty much a full house for a great council (at least in the show universe), isn't is?

So if what was filmed was this enormous gathering of survivings lords and ladies, and Jon and Dany are absent, that would suggest that Jon and Dany aren't part of the postwar power structure in Westeros, for whatever reason.

Quote

If all B plot level characters become legit rulers, the NK is ended, and the Big 5 live, then where is the bittersweet ending?  Is anybody else disappointed if this is the way it ends, at least on TV?

I'm guessing that the dragons die, for starters. If there is a big dragon vs. dragon fight in the last episode, that pretty much seals the fate of both. We can also anticipate that there will be a lot of human deaths, and I'm not just talking about the millions of Westeros residents that will be absorbed into the AOTD as the NK makes his way south, or that will be killed when Winterfell and KL are burned to the ground. Grey Worm survives the Battle of Winterfell, but we can probably guess based on filming times that Pod and Tormund won't be so lucky. (I'm less clear about Jorah and Beric.) Then of course Varys and Melisandre are clearly doomed. Throw in Jaime, Sandor (I'm guessing), and maybe even Gilly (since Hannah Murray didn't film in Seville as far as we know), and it's already looking pretty bleak. 

I mean, isn't that bittersweet enough for you? Because it sounds bittersweet to me.

[Dragon in the North]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:32 PM, Coyote_Durango said:

The scene that really confirmed it for me was Arya giving Walder the Frey Pie. While the Frey Pie theory is pretty well known among book theorists and re-readers, it's not widely known elsewhere. The theory itself requires piecing together rather subtle, mundane clues scattered across several chapters in ADWD. It also requires understanding specific rules of guest right, which are furthermore scattered across the books in multiple POVs. What's more, the Frey pie theory doesn't lend much to the story outside of suggesting a deliciously twisted and vengeful side of Lord Manderly, so it's likely the theory will forever be left a mystery. Most first-time book readers wouldn't have noticed it in their first read through, and even less fewer would likely have caught it on their own without learning of it first from these forums. In fact, I think it would have been quite impressive if D&D put it together without reading fan theories, as they'd have matched some of the cleverest readers out there.

And let's not forget the elephant in the room that is R+L=J. That's a fan theory involving even more scattered clues and is still missing many critical details, yet they still sourced it anyway. So if we're supposed to really believe that D&D pieced together not just the Frey Pies but also the truth of Jon's parentage all without the help of published fan theories, then my name is Jinglebells.

You need to remember though that they’ve had Martin as a source of information for years. They could have bounced their own theories off of him, or he may have offered them freely. There was that notorious 3 day meeting they had at Martin’s house when the show was about to overtake the books. He may have given them a rundown of all the mysteries he had planned for the series. Bryan Cogman, one of the main writers of the show, also seems to be an avid ASOIAF fan. He could have brought the theory to D&D’s attention.

And I know for a fact that R+L=J was confirmed by Martin himself. He asked D&D to name Jon Snow’s mother before they signed on to the project. It wasn’t that difficult of a theory to come up with, as the clues stood out more than they should have.

[Coyote_Durango]

12 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

You need to remember though that they’ve had Martin as a source of information for years. They could have bounced their own theories off of him, or he may have offered them freely. There was that notorious 3 day meeting they had at Martin’s house when the show was about to overtake the books. He may have given them a rundown of all the mysteries he had planned for the series. Bryan Cogman, one of the main writers of the show, also seems to be an avid ASOIAF fan. He could have brought the theory to D&D’s attention.

And I know for a fact that R+L=J was confirmed by Martin himself. He asked D&D to name Jon Snow’s mother before they signed on to the project. It wasn’t that difficult of a theory to come up with, as the clues stood out more than they should have.

Yeah, Cogman probably knew of the theories. They could have gotten the Frey Pie idea from him. Boo hiss.

Whether GRRM really ever told D&D about Jon's real mother, it's anybody's guess. I'm not convinced though, given how careful the guy is about revealing critical details about the book in interviews. If Jon's parentage was important to the central plot at all, I don't know if he'd want D&D to spoil that before the books concluded.

Although D&D were asked about Jon's mother, GRRM didn't actually say they were right or wrong. "George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was the tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point".   So just for the sake of argument, perhaps either D&D guessed right but Jon's mother isn't critical at all and R+L=J is much ado about nothing, or they came to the wrong conclusion and GRRM was satisfied they wouldn't spoil any book surprises. After all, GRRM threw this into ASOS, "Jaime smiled knowingly. Men will read all sorts of things into a knowing smile if you let them."

And to your last point, I don't know if I'd say the clues stood out. Sure it's easy to say the clues stand out now since we're conscious of the theory, but not to a first-time reader given GRRMs tendency to play off reader expectations. The clues are pretty well hidden behind biased sources and vague memories of dead characters. Or extrapolations from what's not said about certain characters. So given the context and narrative flow, a reader could easily read all five books without ever questioning whether Jon's mother wasn't Wylla just as both Ned and Edric said unless they ask specific questions about seemingly unrelated events. It's what makes this book series so fun.

Tangents aside though, you're probably right. Cogman probably let them know about some of these more popular theories. I just hope they don't end up spoiling the ending for the books is all.

[Mindwalker]

I'd just like to point out that if Westeros is governed by a council representing the kingdoms or regions, that has nothing to do with democracy. It's not "somewhat" more democratic, it's just federal instead of central.

[btfu806]

3 hours ago, Coyote_Durango said:

Yeah, Cogman probably knew of the theories. They could have gotten the Frey Pie idea from him. Boo hiss.

Regarding R+L=J being confirmed by GRRM though, I'm not convinced given how careful the guy is about revealing critical details about the book in interviews. If Jon's parentage was important to the central plot at all, I don't know if he'd want D&D to spoil it before the books concluded. So just for the sake of argument, perhaps either D&D guessed right but Jon's mother isn't critical at all and R+L=J is much ado about nothing, or they came to the wrong conclusion and GRRM was satisfied they would spoil any book surprises.

And just to go full nerd for a bit, I can illustrate my point that GRRM might have hid the truth from D&D. I pulled up that Q&A from 2013 you referred to where D&D were asked about Jon's mother, and they said "George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was the tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point". Interestingly, in GRRM's own writing, he gave Jaime a strangely applicable inner monologue about "knowing smiles" in ASOS: "Jaime smiled knowingly. Men will read all sorts of things into a knowing smile if you let them."

And to your last point, I don't know if I'd say the clues stood out. Sure it's easy to say the clues stand out now since we're conscious of the theory, but not to a first-time reader given GRRMs tendency to play off reader expectations. The clues are pretty cleverly hidden behind biased sources and vague memories of dead characters. Or extrapolations from what's not said about certain characters. So given the context and narrative flow, a reader could easily read all five books without ever questioning whether Jon's mother wasn't Wylla just as both Ned and Edric said unless they ask specific questions about seemingly unrelated events. It's what makes this book series so fun.

 

Tangents aside though, you're probably right. Cogman probably let them know about some of these more popular theories. I just hope they don't end up spoiling the ending for the books is all.

I also remember that Q&A and thinking it was weird that GRRM didn't just say, yep, you're right. Or something along those lines. Or want to go into it more because I am sure it's a secret he would love to talk about (once he actually writes it).  I could see him smiling at them because he was happy they fell for the trap of thinking R+L=J is real.

Maybe it's the greatest plot twist of all time, R+L=J isn't a thing at all, and GRRM is letting the show finish out so he can write what it actually is and not let D&D try to change their plot last minute to be like the books. No idea what the benefit is at all of doing this. But it's fun to think about..

It would be kinda hilarious if in the books Jon is actually dead, and that's it. He never comes back. Now, I don't think that will be at all what happens, but I think it would be funny.

[Arya Greyjoy]

I refuse to believe Theon dies. If he does not survive, his story will not make sense. Yara does not deserve to govern Pike. Theon is the protagonist of the Greyjoy. He was in Belfast after seeing Gemma in Seville.

[Dragon in the North]

14 hours ago, Coyote_Durango said:

Yeah, Cogman probably knew of the theories. They could have gotten the Frey Pie idea from him. Boo hiss.

Whether GRRM really ever told D&D about Jon's real mother, it's anybody's guess. I'm not convinced though, given how careful the guy is about revealing critical details about the book in interviews. If Jon's parentage was important to the central plot at all, I don't know if he'd want D&D to spoil that before the books concluded.

Although D&D were asked about Jon's mother, GRRM didn't actually say they were right or wrong. "George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was the tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point".   So just for the sake of argument, perhaps either D&D guessed right but Jon's mother isn't critical at all and R+L=J is much ado about nothing, or they came to the wrong conclusion and GRRM was satisfied they wouldn't spoil any book surprises. After all, GRRM threw this into ASOS, "Jaime smiled knowingly. Men will read all sorts of things into a knowing smile if you let them."

And to your last point, I don't know if I'd say the clues stood out. Sure it's easy to say the clues stand out now since we're conscious of the theory, but not to a first-time reader given GRRMs tendency to play off reader expectations. The clues are pretty well hidden behind biased sources and vague memories of dead characters. Or extrapolations from what's not said about certain characters. So given the context and narrative flow, a reader could easily read all five books without ever questioning whether Jon's mother wasn't Wylla just as both Ned and Edric said unless they ask specific questions about seemingly unrelated events. It's what makes this book series so fun.

Tangents aside though, you're probably right. Cogman probably let them know about some of these more popular theories. I just hope they don't end up spoiling the ending for the books is all.

Ok, I guess whether or not Martin confirmed Jon’s parentage can be seen as ambiguous, but I took it as confirmation. If what yo say is true and Martin deliberately misled D&D so as to not spoil his story, then he must have known, or at least suspected, that the show would overtake the books before it even began filming. I think their meeting was in 2005. I believe that Martin had truly tried to outpace the books and don’t think he would have thrown in the towel so soon. That would make him a sell out. As to your last point, it depends what you consider a spoiler. There will be many plot points  that happen in the books that won’t happen in the show, so you have those to look forward to, but I think several of the big revelations will be the same, such as the revelations I already mentioned.

[Coyote_Durango]

20 hours ago, btfu806 said:

It would be kinda hilarious if in the books Jon is actually dead, and that's it. He never comes back. Now, I don't think that will be at all what happens, but I think it would be funny.

You know now that you mention it, maybe it would actually be an interesting plot device if Jon stayed dead. Given how much he achieved before he died, he'd be a powerful martyr especially given that there are so many characters driven by prophecy. If some characters wound up believing he was a secret prophetic prince and tried to magically resurrect him, how fitting would it be for them to fail spectacularly? It would be quite the trope subversion; like GRRM's version of Humpty Dumpty!

Honestly, I'd feel a little disappointed if his arc wound up being the same as the show. I mean, Jon coming back two episodes after getting murdered just screamed PLOT ARMOR! It was as if his murder only served to give him an excuse to leave the Night's Watch and go south.

[Lady Anna]

On 6/27/2018 at 3:47 PM, Coyote_Durango said:

Whether GRRM really ever told D&D about Jon's real mother, it's anybody's guess. I'm not convinced though, given how careful the guy is about revealing critical details about the book in interviews. If Jon's parentage was important to the central plot at all, I don't know if he'd want D&D to spoil that before the books concluded.

Sorry to butt in but didn't he literally tell them how the series ends? True, he probably didn't know it would come to be spoilers for book-readers but that's how it is. They're probably the only 2 people who know almost as much as Martin regarding the major plot points of the series. And tbh I think your average reader could pick up the hints of Jon's parentage halfway through the first book, I don't understand this over-estimation of a such a clear fantasy trope.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Sorry to butt in but didn't he literally tell them how the series ends? True, he probably didn't know it would come to be spoilers for book-readers but that's how it is. They're probably the only 2 people who know almost as much as Martin regarding the major plot points of the series. And tbh I think your average reader could pick up the hints of Jon's parentage halfway through the first book, I don't understand this over-estimation of a such a clear fantasy trope.

In this article, GRRM said he doesn't know the ending yet himself thus he couldn't possibly tell it to D&D. And D&D are also quoted as saying the endings may not be the same. And I'll add that just because GRRM told them something doesn't mean D&D will go along with that. GRRM has been overridden before with Stoneheart, etc.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

That said, I've seen a lot of contradictions, so we won't know how the show ending compares to the books unless the book ending is actually written (not likely) or unless GRRM comes out and makes a very clear public announcement confirming that the show ending should be seen as the book ending as well.

 

“I haven’t written the ending yet,” he said. “I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with a victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory…All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve if or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”

 

“We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”