Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[TheSlayerofLies]

17 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

The idea that Dany has to go through the motions just so her dragon's death can have some sort of meaning for her is hilariously stupid. Just go kill the fucking bad guy who killed her dragon and who is threatening HER kingdom if she wants it to have meaning.

Which is what she's headed to do...  I mean it'd be quite out of character for Daenerys not to want to enact revenge on the NK after he killed her dragon.

 

18 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

It was a poor decision to trust Cersei at all. Basically Dany went through all that effort to get Cersei to lie to her. 

 

I agree.  As I said, Cersei managed to lie to all them.  Her own brothers fell for it, so if anything it reflects worse on them.  And also as I said, the poor decision is that Dany didn't deal with Cersei from the get go.

 

21 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Notice how bending the knee still wasn't enough to get Dany North without Cersei's ceasefire.

Dany already went North prior to him bending the knee, at Jon's request.  She saved their mission to capture the wight. 

 

23 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

And since Dany is still apparently going South when he wakes up on the boat, he probably didnt believe a word out of her mouth when she made that "pledge."

Her pledge is "We are going to destroy the Night King and his army. And we'll do it together. You have my word."  I don't see any reason why Jon wouldn't believe her.  Besides we have an abundance of leaked material from Season 7, all suggesting that he does.

[Guest]

I feel like we're back to the first post I made.

Jon bent the knee to get her to honor her pledge. Which from his perspective, looks like she has no interest in doing because she's inserting a variable into the equation he can't control: Cersei Lannister. If Dany's pledge on the boat was sincere, she wouldnt have made it contingent on whatever Cersei says. Why is she waiting on Cersei to agree to her demands? What if Cersei didnt? Is the North just screwed now?

[Bear Claw]

8 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I feel like we're back to the first post I made.

Jon bent the knee to get her to honor her pledge. Which from his perspective, looks like she has no interest in doing because she's inserting a variable into the equation he can't control: Cersei Lannister. If Dany's pledge on the boat was sincere, she wouldnt have made it contingent on whatever Cersei says. Why is she waiting on Cersei to agree to her demands? What if Cersei didnt? Is the North just screwed now?

This issue reminds me of the Sansa/Vale problem in Season Six. Sansa keeps the Vale info from Jon, and in season seven, Dany "pledges," but really won't follow through unless Cersei agrees to a cease-fire. It brings up many questions and uncertainties. 

[TheSlayerofLies]

7 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Jon bent the knee to get her to honor her pledge.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.  Jon has been given no reason to doubt Dany's pledge.  Dany gave him men to mine the dragon glass.  She showed up beyond the wall when she was needed the most.

 

8 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Why is she waiting on Cersei to agree to her demands? What if Cersei didnt?

I imagine this is part of the reason why they took Dany's entire force and planted them outside the gates of King's Landing.  The show never really gave a "plan b" in case Cersei didn't agree.  So it's difficult to know how that scenario would have played out.

 

8 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Is the North just screwed now?

From filming news it looks like everywhere is screwed lol.  But if you're asking if Dany is going to abandon the North, that doesn't seem to be the case as she took part in filming at the Winterfell set during those night shoots.  

As I keep harkening back to, it appears that not dealing with Cersei swiftly will be a big mistake.  The most commonly accepted speculation (including credible sources such as WOTW and L7R) is that they're gonna be attacked at Winterfell by both Cersei and the NK at some point.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.  Jon has been given no reason to doubt Dany's pledge.  Dany gave him men to mine the dragon glass.  She showed up beyond the wall when she was needed the most.

It's because she's saying one thing while doing another. She's headed south toward King's Landing, the last place Jon would want to go after that disastrous excursion beyond the Wall. The scene right after Jon feigns sleep, looks at the ceiling and sighs in a very "I'm fucked" way, is Viserion getting raised from the dead. Which suggests that Jon is worried about a wight dragon now. Jon is also warned that a Targaryen cannot be trusted. Jon also says "She won't fight beside us until I bend the knee." He doesn't believe she'll actually do that, until he bends the knee.

Also, any other alternative explanation for why Jon bent the knee is far worse:

- Jon thinks Daenerys Targaryen would do a better job ruling the North than he could?

- Jon decides she should be queen of the 7 kingdoms because she's pretty and sad?

- Jon thinks his people will love her and fall in their feet in adoration, even as he "went south and lost his kingdom" for a "foreign whore" just like Robb?

- Jon is so impressed that she saved him on a suicide mission that she sent him on for her benefit? When she didn't actually save him - it was Benjen? (it's clear he doesn't even care about being rescued by her, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to end it right there).

- Jon believes every word out of Dany's mouth even as she expresses indecisiveness in the next episode?

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

I imagine this is part of the reason why they took Dany's entire force and planted them outside the gates of King's Landing.  The show never really gave a "plan b" in case Cersei didn't agree.  So it's difficult to know how that scenario would have played out.

This whole thing is easily solved by Dany making a decision to help regardless of what Cersei does. This is not a legitimate dilemma. Dany always had the ability to make the choice to help the North - Cersei has nothing to do with it. 

Cersei would attack them whether Dany got a promise from her or not. Getting a promise doesnt make anyone "safer" when dealing with an enemy. Meeting with Cersei and showing up with her dragons actually gave Cersei valuable intel. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

 But if you're asking if Dany is going to abandon the North, that doesn't seem to be the case as she took part in filming at the Winterfell set during those night shoots.  

We don't really know what happens at WF yet.

We also got a set pic of Winterfell in flames.

I'm not saying the two are related, but fire queen at Winterfell-->Winterfell in flames sets off alarm bells.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

This issue reminds me of the Sansa/Vale problem in Season Six. Sansa keeps the Vale info from Jon, and in season seven, Dany "pledges," but really won't follow through unless Cersei agrees to a cease-fire. It brings up many questions and uncertainties. 

Yeah it could be that, but why is there so much material to poke holes in this love story?

Jon didnt even bend the knee to her and he qualified his statement with a "but."

Really important dialogue, and they throw that in there when they didn't have to?

[TheSlayerofLies]

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

t's because she's saying one thing while doing another. She's headed south toward King's Landing, the last place Jon would want to go after that disastrous excursion beyond the Wall.

They would have to go South regardless.  Dany's entire army is situated there.

 

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

The scene right after Jon feigns sleep, looks at the ceiling and sighs in a very "I'm fucked" way, is Viserion getting raised from the dead. Which suggests that Jon is worried about a wight dragon now. Jon is also warned that a Targaryen cannot be trusted. Jon also says "She won't fight beside us until I bend the knee." He doesn't believe she'll actually do that, until he bends the knee.

Pretty sure Jon doesn't know about Viserion being risen from the dead.  If h knew he would have mentioned it to Daenerys or someone (Davos?).  Jon and co saw Viserion slip into the frozen lake, and at the Dragonpit he's asked if wights can swim, to which he says no.  I think Bran is the only one who knows about Viserion at this point.

And the scene you're talking about is this scene.  Credit to u/shmedstark from r/asoiaf for going through the leaked scripts/summaries

• "Jon sees her beauty, strength, grief and pain and all push him to the realization that he loves her and he's thrown by the realization. Her fingers move on his hand and she likes the way it feels. A look between them acknowledges what almost just happened, she stares at him a moment longer, stands and leaves the cabin."

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Jon thinks Daenerys Targaryen would do a better job ruling the North than he could?

Jon never wanted to be King.  Pretty sure this is stated in the script.  Don't know whether he believes Dany would do a better job or not.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Jon decides she should be queen of the 7 kingdoms because she's pretty and sad?

No that's silly.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Jon thinks his people will love her and fall in their feet in adoration, even as he "went south and lost his kingdom" for a "foreign whore" just like Robb?

Jon is so impressed that she saved him on a suicide mission that she sent him on for her benefit? When she didn't actually save him - it was Benjen? (it's clear he doesn't even care about being rescued by her, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to end it right there).

This is what the script says:

• He abdicates his claims of kingship, and pledges her his allegiance.
• Dany is shocked and amazed. What about the Northerners? How will they take it? Jon thinks they’ll understand. The ones who know him know he never really wanted to be king anyway. And the rest of them will come to see Dany for what she is: someone from the edge of the world, just like them. Someone who could have let them all die, but didn’t.

And come on, this is significantly different from what Robb did.  Dany has armies and dragons, whereas Talisa added nothing.

Both Benjen and Daenerys saved him.  That's the way it was shot, don't know what else to say.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

This whole thing is easily solved by Dany making a decision to help regardless of what Cersei does. This is not a legitimate dilemma. Dany always had the ability to make the choice to help the North - Cersei has nothing to do with it. 

Cersei would attack them whether Dany got a promise from her or not. Getting a promise doesnt make anyone "safer" when dealing with an enemy. Meeting with Cersei and showing up with her dragons actually gave Cersei valuable intel. 

Again, here she is relying on Tyrion's knowledge of Cersei.  She doesn't know her, but if Tyrion believes she can be convinced to at least have a temporary truce between them then she'll take it.  It's probably the smart thing to do, but we, the audience, know that it's going to backfire.  Seems Sansa was the one who was right about Cersei, and she should have been taken care of sooner.

 

52 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

We don't really know what happens at WF yet.

Yes you're right.  Though IrishThrones states there are scenes involving Jon, Daenerys, The Hound, and the Night King at Winterfell.  We also have leaked prop photos of the shoot there.  And potentially an extra that leaked some minor stuff on 4chan.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

They would have to go South regardless.  Dany's entire army is situated there.

Cool idea. So why didn't she do this? 

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Pretty sure Jon doesn't know about Viserion being risen from the dead.  If h knew he would have mentioned it to Daenerys or someone (Davos?).  Jon and co saw Viserion slip into the frozen lake, and at the Dragonpit he's asked if wights can swim, to which he says no.  I think Bran is the only one who knows about Viserion at this point.

He saw a wight polar bear and wight horses. I know the show writes Jon as if he can't even rub two brain cells together, but he would at least know that any living thing that dies beyond the Wall can be turned into a wight.

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

And the scene you're talking about is this scene.  Credit to u/shmedstark from r/asoiaf for going through the leaked scripts/summaries

Evidence suggests that was faked. I've seen the reddit page that claims that this line is in the summary, but there is no summary document attached. People asked him to provide a source and he never did.

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Jon never wanted to be King.  Pretty sure this is stated in the script.  Don't know whether he believes Dany would do a better job or not.

• He abdicates his claims of kingship, and pledges her his allegiance.
• Dany is shocked and amazed. What about the Northerners? How will they take it? Jon thinks they’ll understand. The ones who know him know he never really wanted to be king anyway. And the rest of them will come to see Dany for what she is: someone from the edge of the world, just like them. Someone who could have let them all die, but didn’t.

Honestly all of that sounds like flattery. Because in the cave scene he tells her: "My people will never accept a southern ruler." "someone from the edge of the world, just like them"? Cheesy as fuck. They won't see it that way AT ALL. Thank god that didn't make it into the final scene. I base things on what I see on screen anyway, because the scripts are written to mislead viewers. For example, "Sansa never utters the words but it seems clear that her next move is to kill Arya."

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

And come on, this is significantly different from what Robb did.  Dany has armies and dragons, whereas Talisa added nothing.

It's too perfect, which is why it's suspicious. Jon just happens to fall in love with a woman who will fix his wight problem? No conflict whatsoever to prevent them from being together, except the eventual incest (which people think Jon will just get over anyway)? Another issue is that falling in love on a political mission means that we'll always wonder if he's just saying these things to get her to do something for him. There is always a transactional element to their interactions.

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Again, here she is relying on Tyrion's knowledge of Cersei.  She doesn't know her, but if Tyrion believes she can be convinced to at least have a temporary truce between them then she'll take it.  It's probably the smart thing to do, but we, the audience, know that it's going to backfire.  Seems Sansa was the one who was right about Cersei, and she should have been taken care of sooner.

Fair point on Cersei being dealt with sooner, but you're missing the bigger picture. Dany's choice in S7 is between pursuing the Iron Throne or helping the North. If she were really a hero, she would help the North even if there is no benefit in for her. Instead, she takes prizes (the North handed to her on a silver platter) and puts conditions on her assistance (Cersei can't have an advantage). She didn't want to make a decision. The narrative won't let her get away with this fuckery.

 

[TheSlayerofLies]

12 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Cool idea. So why didn't she do this? 

She did.  And now they're all on their way North.

13 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

He saw a wight polar bear and wight horses. I know the show writes Jon as if he can't even rub two brain cells together, but he would at least know that any living thing that dies beyond the Wall can be turned into a wight.

Well classify it as bad writing if you want.  The whole idea of the wight hunt makes them all look like morons.  I'm pretty sure Jon will be surprised to find out Viserion was reanimated.

15 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Evidence suggests that was faked. I've seen the reddit page that claims that this line is in the summary, but there is no summary document attached. People asked him to provide a source and he never did.

You believe it it to be faked, but I'm not sure you can suggest there's "evidence" it's faked.  I'm pretty sure it's not faked considering this persons track record.

18 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Honestly all of that sounds like flattery. Because in the cave scene he tells her: "My people will never accept a southern ruler." "someone from the edge of the world, just like them"? Cheesy as fuck. They won't see it that way AT ALL. Thank god that didn't make it into the final scene. I base things on what I see on screen anyway, because the scripts are written to mislead viewers. For example, "Sansa never utters the words but it seems clear that her next move is to kill Arya."

The cave scene is from episode 4, Jon's opinion on her evolved.  Whether you think it was convincingly done is another manner.

It being cheesy isn't really an argument, especially considering this is D&D we're talking about.  

And no, the scripts are not meant to mislead viewers.  The scripts are not even mean't to be seen by viewers.  They're given to the cast and crew in order for them to do their job.  The scene is meant to filmed in a romantic ("cheesy") manner, which is what we got. 

24 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

It's too perfect, which is why it's suspicious. Jon just happens to fall in love with a woman who will fix his wight problem? No conflict whatsoever to prevent them from being together, except the eventual incest (which people think Jon will just get over anyway)?

It's a bit perfect now but fear not, there will be conflict.

"Just as we're seeing these two people come together, we're hearing the information that will inevitably, if not tear them apart, at least cause real problems in their relationship," he says. "And she's his aunt.

“It complicates everything on a political level, on a personal level, and it just makes everything that could’ve been so neat and kind of perfect for Jon and Dany and it really muddies the waters.”

29 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Another issue is that falling in love on a political mission means that we'll always wonder if he's just saying these things to get her to do something for him. There is always a transactional element to their interactions.

Well you're welcome to wonder.  I've learned from Season 4/5 till now that it's usually best to take things the way they're presented to you.  D&D are writing this for the general audience.

31 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Fair point on Cersei being dealt with sooner, but you're missing the bigger picture. Dany's choice in S7 is between pursuing the Iron Throne or helping the North. If she were really a hero, she would help the North even if there is no benefit in for her.

Dany is capable of heroic actions, yes, but I wouldn't classify her as an outright hero.  What she did in Slaver's Bay was of little benefit to her, particularly after she got the Unsullied.  If memory serves right, she also had the ships she need to cross the Narrow Sea by 4x05.  Yet she saw it all out.  In any case, I'd say Dany falls somewhere in the middle.

35 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Instead, she takes prizes (the North handed to her on a silver platter) and puts conditions on her assistance (Cersei can't have an advantage). She didn't want to make a decision. The narrative won't let her get away with this fuckery.

Her pledge to Jon comes before "he handed the North to her on a silver platter".  And even then, she questions it by asking about what the Northerners will think.  Dany doesn't even communicate this to her hand.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

She did.  And now they're all on their way North.

 Why didn't she skip the ceasefire meeting?

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Well classify it as bad writing if you want.  The whole idea of the wight hunt makes them all look like morons.  I'm pretty sure Jon will be surprised to find out Viserion was reanimated.

The wight hunt is Tyrion's idea and Jon jumps on it because Dany won't budge. She had the power to say "you know what, this is stupid" when they presented the idea. They're only doing to work around Dany's worry that she'd be giving the country to Cersei. The wight hunt is a farce; everyone is moving heaven and earth to make Dany happy/pleased. 

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

You believe it it to be faked, but I'm not sure you can suggest there's "evidence" it's faked.  I'm pretty sure it's not faked considering this persons track record.

Who knows. No one has a copy or screenshot of those original outline pages that shmedstark appears to be quoting. None of that stuff shows up in the full outline leak from Lads either. It's suspicious that that line was omitted from the original leak. As we're witnessing with S8 leaks, there are a ton of fake leakers out there who write things and pass it off as legit. I wouldn't be surprised if this also happened in S7. shmedstark could have gotten played.

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

The cave scene is from episode 4, Jon's opinion on her evolved.  Whether you think it was convincingly done is another manner.

It being cheesy isn't really an argument, especially considering this is D&D we're talking about.  

And no, the scripts are not meant to mislead viewers.  The scripts are not even mean't to be seen by viewers.  They're given to the cast and crew in order for them to do their job.  The scene is meant to filmed in a romantic ("cheesy") manner, which is what we got. 

This is not about HIS opinion on her. In 7x6 on the boat the dialogue is about his opinion on how his people will see her. He thinks his people will NEVER support her, now suddenly he thinks they'll love her? This is contradictory.

Are D&D writing Jon in the final season as being as dumb as Ned and Robb? Are they going to have Mr. Wight Expert Jon Snow shocked and surprised that a wight dragon exists? He will also be shocked that the Northern Independence movement doesn't find her as amazing as he does? The series ends with Jon Snow, dumb as a brick, pure at heart, and a cuddly cinnamon roll who wants to become Dany's supplicant and grovel at her feet just like Tyrion, Jorah, Daario, and every man in the entire world? 

I think D&D aren't even trying with this romance because they'll end up going to war with each other anyway.

Scripts are written from the audience POV. They show what the audience is supposed to see and think. Game of Thrones has also released scripts in an official capacity. 

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Dany is capable of heroic actions, yes, but I wouldn't classify her as an outright hero.  What she did in Slaver's Bay was of little benefit to her, particularly after she got the Unsullied.  If memory serves right, she also had the ships she need to cross the Narrow Sea by 4x05.  Yet she saw it all out.  In any case, I'd say Dany falls somewhere in the middle.

Yes, Dany has had her hero moments and it's clear she's the "hero from the other side." It's just odd that once she gets to Westeros and sees the AOTD with her own eyes, she decides to dilly-dally around in the south playing politics with Cersei. Stannis didn't ask for a ceasefire from Joffrey before he answered the call to help at the Wall. Stannis didn't even have to see the AOTD himself. 

49 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Her pledge to Jon comes before "he handed the North to her on a silver platter".  And even then, she questions it by asking about what the Northerners will think.  Dany doesn't even communicate this to her hand.

If the North wasn't important to her, she should have let Jon know that. It's better to be co-equal allies, which is what Jon wanted all along.

We'll see if Dany really doesn't care about "prizes" like the North in S8. Say for example, the Northern lords refuse to kneel to her or if they declare Sansa Queen. Yup, sure, Dany will be cool with that.

This also comes back to the idea that Jon has no way of making her act on her promise, when there is still another hurdle to overcome: the meeting itself. Jon refusing to honor Cersei's offer shouldn't be the deciding factor if Dany helps or not. If you read his promises speech in the dragonpit, it sounds like he's talking about Dany. Dany appears to be on the verge of breaking her promise just because Jon told the truth.

[TheSlayerofLies]

31 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Why didn't she skip the ceasefire meeting?

Because that had already been agreed upon.  Tyrion "risked" his life entering the city just to meet up with Jaime. 

32 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

The wight hunt is Tyrion's idea and Jon jumps on it because Dany won't budge. She had the power to say "you know what, this is stupid" when they presented the idea.

Yes, in a way, you are correct but the manner in which it is written and displayed is quite shoddy.

This is what writer Dave Hill has to say about that mission

“Once they know the Army of the Dead is marching, it’s time to put up or shut up. She knows he’s honest — and is honest to a fault. She’s seen the cave. She can’t continue a war and still have Seven Kingdoms to rule after the war is done. Jon is not about to send others on a deadly mission that he wouldn’t shoulder himself. She’s gotten used to the technically-in-rebellion King in the North advising her. They’re both, in a way, cut from the same cloth — they’re both idealists. They both care about the people they govern, which makes them unique in Westeros. And they both feel the same weight of the crown. All that that draws her to him. He’s good hearted and would want to ‘break the wheel’ with her.”

37 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Who knows. No one has a copy or screenshot of those original outline pages that shmedstark appears to be quoting. None of that stuff shows up in the full outline leak from Lads either. It's suspicious that that line was omitted from the original leak. As we're witnessing with S8 leaks, there are a ton of fake leakers out there who write things and pass it off as legit. I wouldn't be surprised if this also happened in S7. shmedstark could have gotten played.

Well that is quite different than suggesting that there was "evidence" pointing towards it being faked.  The episode summaries were all released though but they were quickly taken down.  Here

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6vy3fe/episode_7_detailed_overview_by_mrsmith_sent_by/dm4h7ud/

It's not a stretch to say shmedstark was able to see/download them.  He does provide sample pics in his posts and even points out the number of pages there is.  127 pages for the "Preliminary Outline" and 31 pages from the episode summaries.  And everything in his post lines up with what was leaked; I don't think he'd lie about that particular line.  Besides, that line pretty accurately depicts what transpired on screen so I don't understand what we're arguing about in this case.

And awayforthelads only leaked 6 script pages so I'm not sure why it'd show up there.  He just mostly answered peoples questions.

49 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

This is not about HIS opinion on her. In 7x6 on the boat the dialogue is about his opinion on how his people will see her. He thinks his people will NEVER support her, now suddenly he thinks they'll love her? This is contradictory.

Yes that's what he thinks in 7x4, but as I said, his opinion on her evolved.  So while he initially thought that his people would never support her, he is hopeful that their opinion of Daenerys will evolve just as his has.  Which is what's stated in the script.

51 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I think D&D aren't even trying with this romance because they'll end up going to war with each other anyway.

Besides Jon & Ygritte, I can't really think of a well written romance in either books or show.  Maybe Jaime & Brienne if it pans out.

And yes that's possible, but I doubt it. 

54 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Scripts are written from the audience POV. They show what the audience is supposed to see and think. Game of Thrones has also released scripts in an official capacity. 

Yes, but they are there to guide the cast and crew on how they're supposed to be filming/playing scenes.  They are not meant for the general audience.

Game of Thrones releases scripts that they submit for awards but those are altered.

57 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Yes, Dany has had her hero moments and it's clear she's the "hero from the other side." It's just odd that once she gets to Westeros and sees the AOTD with her own eyes, she decides to dilly-dally around in the south playing politics with Cersei.

Sure, just like everyone is a hero from their own stories be it Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, the NK, Cersei, etc.

58 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Stannis didn't ask for a ceasefire from Joffrey before he answered the call to help at the Wall. Stannis didn't even have to see the AOTD himself. 

Stannis was not in a position to ask for a ceasefire.  He had just lost, and only had a small amount of men.  Whereas Dany is in a position in which she could take King's Landing whenever she wants, so she's asking from a position of strength.

But yes, Stannis deserves credit for aiding the Night's Watch.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

We'll see if Dany really doesn't care about "prizes" like the North in S8. Say for example, the Northern lords refuse to kneel to her or if they declare Sansa Queen. Yup, sure, Dany will be cool with that.

Well we'll have to see what happens.  Perhaps Sansa will present a marriage option between Jon and Dany as that idea has already been instilled in her head.  In seriousness, it was bad writing that no one suggested it in S7.

But your scenario is a possibility.  

Dany does say that she's not headed north to conquer it, but rather to save it.  Perhaps she'll put off asking for their fealty till after the war.  Who knows.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Dany appears to be on the verge of breaking her promise just because Jon told the truth.

What is Dany's promise though?  She promised him that they'll defeat the NK together, I don't see how anything she does since is her "breaking her promise".  If we want to get real nitpicky, we could argue that Dany doesn't really give a timeframe.

[goldenmaps]

Do we know if the dragons will actually be effective against the Night King and the White Walkers.  I honestly don't think that they will be effective.  Dany's army is the very definition of a summer army.  Will they be effective in fighting in the North which I think is an analogue to Russia.  I would think the fighting styles in the desert and in the freezing cold will be different. 

For some reason I think that Bran will be the savior, not Dany.  Bran's been actively training and then Dany just comes and swoops in and saves them all is not something I believe will happen.  Ever since Bran woke up from his coma he thinks that he can't be a knight because he doesn't have the use of his legs anymore.  He can't run or climb like he used to.  I think that GRMM is setting it up that Bran is a true knight even if his legs don't work anymore. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Besides, that line pretty accurately depicts what transpired on screen so I don't understand what we're arguing about in this case.

Her Beauty! Strength! Grief! And Pain! And he falls in love with her. It's "he bent the knee because she's pretty and sad" This is the essence of it. Sure it could be D&D's own hack writing. It could also be something a shipper wrote in. This is why I said the episode summaries are suspicious - posted by "TeamKhaleesi"? Ok.

No matter. I disagree that it matches up with the scene anyway.

All of their conversations revolve around politics or dragons. Jon has no personal moments where he talks about himself. He's closed off for most of the season. This raises questions about what he actually wants. In that scene he seems like he's pleading for her to do something. He holds on to her hand a bit too long. He may want her assurance that the ceasefire won't affect her promise. Or he may just want to get laid. But like I said, he never verbalizes his personal desires at all this season so I don't think it's that.

I also see flattery in that scene. He's done it before, when she caught him not giving a satisfactory answer about her dragons. There's no question he knows how the Northerners will react to her (read: negatively) because he persuades her not to take her dragon North. He's basically telling her "sure! the North will love you!" out of the side of his mouth while trying to control the PR around her arrival. 

If Jon does know about a wight dragon, which I think he does, it presents a danger to everyone in the North (it can just fly over the Wall) and it would be a bad time to tell her about this concern. Daario dropped a line that everyone is afraid to tell her the truth, and to me this describes Jon around Dany in S7. If he does tell her the truth, he sugarcoats it. For example, "People believe in you because you made something impossible happen!" I can't imagine him thinking that Cersei was ever important, after such a disastrous mission, so he may want her to cancel the ceasefire (which she should do anyway), but he feels like he can't tell her why.

Using script outlines and interviews will drive you insane if you use that to explain stuff. The writers are very contradictory in their statements and are notorious trolls. They intentionally lie in interviews to maximize a twist coming later. Not every line in the script can be trusted, not even the leaked ones. If they want to fool the audience, they will also fool the actors too because they want them to give off a convincing performance. 

But if you want to use outlines to provide evidence of something (I usually don't), we could bring up how Dany is a much darker character in the outline. She's described as acting like Caligula. She's called a new boss, same as the old boss. Men trail after her like baby ducks. She thinks the person with the most dragons should rule the Seven Kingdoms. She questions Jon's resurrection and brags about her own. She takes Jon's clothes off to stare at his scars while he's unconscious (creepy). Loyalty turns her on. She asks to speak with Jon privately at the end of 7x7, suggesting that she's coercing him into sleeping with her. This is in addition to the the official script in 6x10, "My tyranny has just begun" and Jack Bender saying she has the same power as Hitler and that we should be horrified.

Would Jon fall in love with someone so dark? It seems OOC. He couldn't even handle Ygritte killing an old man and Dany is much darker than her. She had one redeeming quality in S7  - a rescue mission that she went on. Correction: that she sent him on. I'm not sure what that Dave Hill quote is supposed to prove. Yes, Dany already believes the threat is real and is marching beyond the Wall. It reflects badly on her that she doesn't act when she knows this, and Jon finds out his family has returned home. She should have "put up or shut up" and helped the North right then if that was the case. They could have used the Wall as a base of operations to attack, but now they can't because everything had to line up for her perfectly first. 

3 hours ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

What is Dany's promise though?  She promised him that they'll defeat the NK together, I don't see how anything she does since is her "breaking her promise".  If we want to get real nitpicky, we could argue that Dany doesn't really give a timeframe.

Doesn't matter. Her promise is meaningless because the AOTD could wipe out everyone before she even gets a chance to defeat the NK "together." For Jon, immediate assistance is required: "THERE'S NO TIME FOR ANY OF THIS." So yeah I can understand why the longer Dany gets entangled in wars and politics in the South - or even decides she has to defeat Cersei first - the more anxious he's going to get about her not helping them at all. The North is the first to go if the Wall falls. While Dany takes her sweet time, Jon's family could be dead and half her kingdom wiped out.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Besides Jon & Ygritte, I can't really think of a well written romance in either books or show.  Maybe Jaime & Brienne if it pans out.

They may suck at everything else but they know how to write romance and build up to it. Missandei and Greyworm. Talisa and Robb. Sam and Gilly. Drogo and Dany. Ned and Cat. Tyrion and Shae. You might not have liked the pairings but I never questioned the characters' feelings.

[TheSlayerofLies]

43 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Her Beauty! Strength! Grief! And Pain! And he falls in love with her. It's "he bent the knee because she's pretty and sad" This is the essence of it. Sure it could be D&D's own hack writing. It could also be something a shipper wrote in. This is why I said the episode summaries are suspicious - posted by "TeamKhaleesi"? Ok

Well I remember people making that same argument when awayforthelads leaked the script page which had Jon saying "Thank you Dany".  People were calling it faked by a shipper because of that, but it ended up being on the show.  

The summaries were not leaked by u/teamkhaleesi, they were simply sharing the files that "Mr. Smith" leaked from the HBO hack.  Amongst the files, there were actor contracts and personal information (such as phone and address). Not really sure what the reddit user's name has to do with it..

54 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

All of their conversations revolve around politics or dragons. Jon has no personal moments where he talks about himself. He's closed off for most of the season. This raises questions about what he actually wants. In that scene he seems like he's pleading for her to do something. He holds on to her hand a bit too long. He may want her assurance that the ceasefire won't affect her promise. Or he may just want to get laid. But like I said, he never verbalizes his personal desires at all this season so I don't think it's that.

For most of the season they're both leaders with their own sets of goals.  Both of them want the other to see their objective as the most pressing thing.  It'd be out of character for them to have those sort of moments.  I believe prior to the season the show runners talked about how the audience just has to assume that these conversations happen offscreen.  

I think the scene is what it is.  Meaning it exists as a romantic moment between the two characters and in them coming to an understanding of one another.  Don't really think it's any deeper than that.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I also see flattery in that scene. He's done it before, when she caught him not giving a satisfactory answer about her dragons. There's no question he knows how the Northerners will react to her (read: negatively) because he persuades her not to take her dragon North. He's basically telling her "sure! the North will love you!" out of the side of his mouth while trying to control the PR around her arrival. 

Of course, but he's betting on the Northerners opinion of her to evolve just as his has.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Using script outlines and interviews will drive you insane if you use that to explain stuff. The writers are very contradictory in their statements and are notorious trolls. They intentionally lie in interviews to maximize a twist coming later. Not every line in the script can be trusted, not even the leaked ones. If they want to fool the audience, they will also fool the actors too because they want them to give off a convincing performance. 

 I don't necessarily disagree with any of this.  But at the moment it's all we have, so..

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

But if you want to use outlines to provide evidence of something (I usually don't), we could bring up how Dany is a much darker character in the outline. She's described as acting like Caligula.

I don't see how this is any "darker" than what we've seen of Dany on the show.  But I will note that many of these quotes you're using are entirely decontextualized.  For example, the Caligula part is about Tyrion and Varys hoping for more Caesar-like ruthlessness.  

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

She's called a new boss, same as the old boss. Men trail after her like baby ducks

This is Bronn teasing Tyrion (the outline heavily implies that Tyrion has romantic feelings for Daenerys). 

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

She thinks the person with the most dragons should rule the Seven Kingdoms. She questions Jon's resurrection and brags about her own.

Reading this scene, it comes across as very flirty.  It's quite cheesy that I'm glad they changed it.  But the intent was for it to be a romantically charged scene.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

She takes Jon's clothes off to stare at his scars while he's unconscious (creepy)

This scene is also supposed to have romantic implications, and it's definitely not written in a creepy manner.  In fact, it's a follow up scene to the scene above this one.  In that scene Jon offered to show her his scars and even calls her Dany.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Loyalty turns her on

Again, another "romantic" scene.  It describes Dany as having that look she gave Drogo when he said they were sailing for Westeros.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

She asks to speak with Jon privately at the end of 7x7, suggesting that she's coercing him into sleeping with her.

This scene lacks context, but needless to say I disagree with your interpretation.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

This is in addition to the the official script in 6x10, "My tyranny has just begun"

Yes, this is to aid/direct Emilia, as in this scene she's supposed to show the "faintest smile" just before Drogon shows up.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Jack Bender saying she has the same power as Hitler and that we should be horrified.

This is about Dany's speech in which she rallies the Dothraki.  And Bender's words are correct, we should be roused by her speech and a bit horrified.  He says she's not Hitler but has the power.  Don't see anything wrong with those statements.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Would Jon fall in love with someone so dark? It seems OOC. He couldn't even handle Ygritte killing an old man and Dany is much darker than her.

As of right now, Jon has no reason not to fall in love with Dany.  Perhaps when he sees her committing those dark acts or when he learns more about her prior actions.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Correction: that she sent him on

Corrections x2: She didn't want him to go (so she couldn't have possibly sent him on it) 

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I'm not sure what that Dave Hill quote is supposed to prove.

Dave Hill's quote highlights that Dany thinks she cannot continue to fight a war against Cersei, which is where the idea of a truce comes into play.

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

They may suck at everything else but they know how to write romance and build up to it. Missandei and Greyworm. Talisa and Robb. Sam and Gilly. Drogo and Dany. Ned and Cat. Tyrion and Shae. You might not have liked the pairings but I never questioned the characters' feelings.

I completely disagree.  Gilly was apparently turned on that she was almost raped because immediately after she had sex with Sam.  Talisa and Robb is hilariously bad and unbelievable.   Dany is continuously raped by Drogo and falls in love with him when she gets to be on top?  Ned and Cat is a relationship established before the shows beginning, can't say they had too many romantic scenes.  Tyrion and Shae was never believable for me, the dynamics of their relationship is just completely off.

 

In any case, I'm going back to lurking, as I'm afraid I won't have the time that I had today.  I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply to my thoughts; I enjoyed reading yours.  Good day to you!

[jcmontea]

21 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I feel like we're back to the first post I made.

Jon bent the knee to get her to honor her pledge. Which from his perspective, looks like she has no interest in doing because she's inserting a variable into the equation he can't control: Cersei Lannister. If Dany's pledge on the boat was sincere, she wouldnt have made it contingent on whatever Cersei says. Why is she waiting on Cersei to agree to her demands? What if Cersei didnt? Is the North just screwed now?

This is such a flawed reading I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are trolling. 

[Guest]

I'm going to entertain the idea that Jon is someone who gladly joins Dany's "cult of personality" -Bronn.  Since that's essentially what's going on with his character - Jon Snow, Dany cult member #2422, the "broody" one - unless D&D are trolling  the audience.

It took him a while to come around to her charms, but Jon does eventually become another lovesick idiot who stares slack-jawed at a lady on a dragon, barely distinguishable from Jorah or Daario. Only difference is that Dany decides he's one of the "hot" ones worthy enough to fuck a queen. Jon gives up his kingdom to the mad king's daughter against the explicit wishes of his subjects. His father may have fought to put an end to the Targaryen dynasty, but Jon has no qualms about trampling on Ned's memory and restoring it. He pulls a Robb by anticipating that everyone will love his new consort and "their new queen." Even though he makes the unilateral decision to revoke his people's hard-won independence, he believes they'll forgive him for this offensive act and come to love her too (Oh I get it now! Dany is Queen Alysanne 2.0!). Jon is happy to be imprisoned because he gets to flirt with her all over Dragonstone. He watches her berate her own advisors and fly off to murder "enemies" against his advice, but has no concerns about her fitness for rule. He decides that she has the right temperament for it because she cries over the loss of her dragon. Jon also feels that it is important to win a truce with Cersei and naively believes that she would honor it. Jon wants Dany to take all the time she needs to decide whether they will live or die. He believes Dany will honor her word even if Cersei refuses to keep hers. Even though he has been dealing with the Northern threat since S1, he'll be shocked to learn that dead animals could be turned into wights. On top of all of these epic fails, he's in love with his aunt and they brought down the Wall ~together~.

If this is the Jon Snow D&D are writing, he doesn't deserve to survive life in Westeros. He in fact IS the Northern fool he says he is. Everyone in Westeros has a valid reason to make sure Jon and Dany don't have power to make any important decisions ever again. When they're "working together" these two lovebirds combined make Lollys Stokeworth look like a genius. 

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33 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I'm going to entertain the idea that Jon is someone who gladly joins Dany's "cult of personality" -Bronn.  Since that's essentially what's going on with his character - Jon Snow, Dany cult member #2422, the "broody" one - unless D&D are trolling  the audience.

It took him a while to come around to her charms, but Jon does eventually become another lovesick idiot who stares slack-jawed at a lady on a dragon, barely distinguishable from Jorah or Daario. Only difference is that Dany decides he's one of the "hot" ones worthy enough to fuck a queen. Jon gives up his kingdom to the mad king's daughter against the explicit wishes of his subjects. His father may have fought to put an end to the Targaryen dynasty, but Jon has no qualms about trampling on Ned's memory and restoring it. He pulls a Robb by anticipating that everyone will love his new consort and "their new queen." Even though he makes the unilateral decision to revoke his people's hard-won independence, he believes they'll forgive him for this offensive act and come to love her too (Oh I get it now! Dany is Queen Alysanne 2.0!). Jon is happy to be imprisoned because he gets to flirt with her all over Dragonstone. He watches her berate her own advisors and fly off to murder "enemies" against his advice, but has no concerns about her fitness for rule. He decides that she has the right temperament for it because she cries over the loss of her dragon. Jon also feels that it is important to win a truce with Cersei and naively believes that she would honor it. Jon wants Dany to take all the time she needs to decide whether they will live or die. He believes Dany will honor her word even if Cersei refuses to keep hers. Even though he has been dealing with the Northern threat since S1, he'll be shocked to learn that dead animals could be turned into wights. On top of all of these epic fails, he's in love with his aunt and they brought down the Wall ~together~.

If this is the Jon Snow D&D are writing, he doesn't deserve to survive life in Westeros. He in fact IS the Northern fool he says he is. Everyone in Westeros has a valid reason to make sure Jon and Dany don't have power to make any important decisions ever again. When they're "working together" these two lovebirds combined make Lollys Stokeworth look like a genius. 

Your losing this debate badly...........