Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[NonoNono]

I think it's possible Dany doubts she should be queen once she has trouble at Winterfell, and that might be what triggers the conversation between Sam and Jon: Jon might be worried about the consequences if she gives up her claim, and what would happen with Cersei. He might think Cersei will proceed to march on them and whoever and a new war will start. He might be worried about where he would stand if it came to this. And that might be why Sam says Dany doesn't have to be queen, that Jon can be king.

I haven't read the leak though so I don't know, but that would seem in line with Sam's character. He's usually moral support when Jon feels conflicted.

[Rose of Red Lake]

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Nothing in the leaks states that Dany needs them to bend the knee.  The Northern lords are upset Jon bent the knee to her.  And lets not forget that Daenerys didn't ask for a "prize", she pledged to fight the NK no strings attached; Jon was the one who proceeded to bend the knee after that.  Jon is also the one who made the whole thing public, as it apparently shocked Tyrion and Davos at the Dragonpit.

I can't really buy the "no strings attached argument" because she wanted a ceasefire immediately after that. That's something she wanted in exchange. She still hesitated after her "oath." She wanted to feel secure that Cersei wasn't going to win back Dany's territory before she went North. 

On the leaks, Lyanna says they didn't choose her. So would Dany care if she was ousted? It's unclear if she would or wouldn't. I'm curious to see how she handles the pushback. If she's cool with letting them decide they don't want her as ruler, then that's great. If she is offended, then she really did want prizes. Emilia said Dany comes into Winterfell "cocksure and confident"...so I'm not optimistic. 

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

In fairness, according to the leaks, Jon's response to Dany burning Sam's father and brother is actually that Dany is the queen and that she's in charge lol.  Jon's response to the other stuff is mostly disbelief that Ned lied about his identity, to which Sam replies why he did it.

On the bolded: We must be looking at different translations. I'm going by the reddit link where Jon says nothing. There seems to be competing versions. 

37 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Seems you might be getting too ahead of yourself...  It makes sense for Same to like the idea of Jon as king, even if we were to completely disregard the Tarly incident, that's his best friend.  We should continue to see how the story unfolds; we know from the trailer that Sam apparently gives Jorah Heartsbane to wield against the AOTD

Sam has done this before. He puts Jon in a corner and nominates him for leadership positions whether Jon likes it or not. It looks like a repeat plot to me, but, yes, its early. I will say that it was very clever of Sam to drop in the news about what Dany did to his family with the news about kingship. It was strategic. I think Sam feels attached to Jorah because of Lord Commander Mormont, not necessarily Dany. But Heartsbane sounds like a good political ploy to sway Jorah back to the Northern cause. Sam has played dirty like that before, in the books. 

[NonoNono]

In the promotional photos, Jorah is with Varys in both pictures: once when everyone is together, both on the far left side, and on another page where only he and Varys are together. Make that what you will, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jorah has to abandon his beloved queen at some point. He might love her, but I think there's a limit to it. Jorah having Heartsbane could figuratively imply that, considering its meaning.

[Bear Claw]

12 hours ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

In fairness, according to the leaks, Jon's response to Dany burning Sam's father and brother is actually that Dany is the queen and that she's in charge lol.  Jon's response to the other stuff is mostly disbelief that Ned lied about his identity, to which Sam replies why he did it.

 

Not according to this transcript: Transcript of Frikdoctor by E_v_a_n

Quote

 And you see that Jon thought that Daenerys is the Queen but Sam is telling him that she should not, and instead he should be [the King]. And they leave us there, in the crypts. All this is left hanging there. - Transcript of Frikidoctor by E_v_a_n

 

Jon doesn't respond. It's just "left hanging there". Friki goes on to say, it's apparently saved for the next episode. This makes complete sense because, as you said, it is a lot of info, and TV likes to leave us with cliff hangers. 

[Bear Claw]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

On the bolded: We must be looking at different translations. I'm going by the reddit link where Jon says nothing. There seems to be competing versions. 

I linked it on another comment. The link I provided was a transcript of Frikidoctor's video, so it includes, or attempts to include word for word what Friki said. I think it is correct because it leaves Jon's response to this information as a cliff hanger to be dealt with in Ep. 2.  ETA: Many of the other translations summarized or paraphrased what Friki said, unlike this transcripted version. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

44 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

I linked it on another comment. The link I provided was a transcript of Frikidoctor's video, so it includes, or attempts to include word for word what Friki said. I think it is correct because it leaves Jon's response to this information as a cliff hanger to be dealt with in Ep. 2.  ETA: Many of the other translations summarized or paraphrased what Friki said, unlike this transcripted version. 

Ah that explains it then, yes a transcripted version would be better, thanks! 

[Ser Wun Wun]

2 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

Not according to this transcript: Transcript by Reddit User 

Jon doesn't respond. It's just "left hanging there". Friki goes on to say, it's apparently saved for the next episode. This makes complete sense because, as you said, it is a lot of info, and TV likes to leave us with cliff hangers. 

I think you might have did the link wrong.  It's just taking me to this forum page.  

This is the most thorough of the transcriptions that I've found:  Link

Is this the one you were linking?  It's basically every word Friki says in the video taken from Youtube captions and then run through google translate.  

Jon does react to the Tarly news as the other user stated, according to this. 

Quote

Samwell tells like “man, I see you and Daenerys are like, yes and no [insinuating their romance] but sometimes Daenerys crosses the limits, she crosses the limits with some things”. And, of course, Jon is left there thinking and he says again that we need allies, because he is repeating this thing with the allies, and he bent the knee to her, and she is the Queen. And that I am no longer the King in the North. And she is in command now. But Sam sees him like that, he just found out this news [about his father and brother?], and what Sam could say? And Sam is like “All is OK, for me is the same about the Night King, about the other, about that [like, all the other pressing issues that they face], but this Daenerys Targaryen does not have to be the Queen, you should be the King, because, well, I am going to tell you a few things. Because your mother is Lyanna Stark.”

 

[Mystical]

Is it starting to sound annoyingly repetitive or are the writers trying to tell us that Jon can't handle the situations he gets himself in? It seems that in every conversation/confrontation Jon has with people, he repeats the same mantra of 'we need allies'. As if that excuses everything he or Dany have done. Is he trying to convince himself or others of his awesome girlfriend? Or his testosterone driven 'bending the knee' decision? He gives the same answer about allies in his confrontation with Sansa. It's not an all round excuse just because his obsession with the NK gives him tunnel vision. So it's fine Dany burns people alive, they need allies. What happens should she threaten to burn Northerner? It's fine then or what? And it's fine he put the North in peril with Cersei, they need allies. 'We need allies' is not an all purpose excuse, especially if your stupidity keeps getting allies killed.

[TheSlayerofLies]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I can't really buy the "no strings attached argument" because she wanted a ceasefire immediately after that. That's something she wanted in exchange. She still hesitated after her "oath." She wanted to feel secure that Cersei wasn't going to win back Dany's territory before she went North. 

Well from Dany's perspective, that was the entire purpose of allowing the wight hunt to happen.  This was discussed in 7x05.  So I really can't see how she "hesitated".  

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

On the leaks, Lyanna says they didn't choose her. So would Dany care if she was ousted? It's unclear if she would or wouldn't. I'm curious to see how she handles the pushback. If she's cool with letting them decide they don't want her as ruler, then that's great. If she is offended, then she really did want prizes. Emilia said Dany comes into Winterfell "cocksure and confident"...so I'm not optimistic. 

Yes, I'm interested in that as well.  But again, I think you're being somewhat unfair.. anyone would be offended if they continuously were told they weren't wanted; it's not matter of "prizes".

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

On the bolded: We must be looking at different translations. I'm going by the reddit link where Jon says nothing. There seems to be competing versions. 

 

7 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

Not according to this transcript: Transcript by Reddit User 

Spanish is my first language   The link provided by @Ser Wun Wun is far closer to what Frikidoctor said.  There's some minor translating errors in it, but it gets Jon's reply right.

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sam has done this before. He puts Jon in a corner and nominates him for leadership positions whether Jon likes it or not. It looks like a repeat plot to me, but, yes, its early. I will say that it was very clever of Sam to drop in the news about what Dany did to his family with the news about kingship. It was strategic. I think Sam feels attached to Jorah because of Lord Commander Mormont, not necessarily Dany. But Heartsbane sounds like a good political ploy to sway Jorah back to the Northern cause. Sam has played dirty like that before, in the books.

I can't agree that it was strategic from Sam's part.  The leaks make it seem like he is unsettled, and Jon notices this and asks Sam what is up, which then prompts Sam to tell Jon what happened to his dad and brother.  So it was "strategic" that D&D structured the reveal this way, yes, but it doesn't seem strategic from Sam's POV.  It will probably be clearer once we see it for ourselves. As for the Heartsbane thing... we shall see, hopefully we get the leaks for that soon.  

[Lady Fevre Dream]

All of this.............The North will not, won't want to, bow down to a Targ and her dragons.....leads me to feel it's time for some reminders.

First off, how did the North wind up in the Seven Kingdoms?  The King Who Knelt...........after taking one look at the dragons and what they had done.  Why?  Because Torrhen Stark didn't see the sense in getting a ton of Northerners killed and then still..........being ruled by the Targs.  He took stock of The Field of Fire, what happened at Harrenhal, thought on it a night and became:  The King Who Knelt.  Wisely. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:The_King_who_kneltChaseStone.png

How did we wind up with new Kings in The North this time?  Cue The GreatJon.  This may be a book quote, but it was for the most part included in the show: 

MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the North!

It was the DRAGONS WE MARRIED?  Hmmmmm, that quote is very interesting, LOL 

This isn't my first choice of video for it, but yes, GreatJon pointed out that it was the Dragons they bowed to and the Dragons are all dead. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff35SjsN7g0

ETA:  I feel I should mention that Aegon's terms also figured into Torrhen's kneeling. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

48 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

Yes, I'm interested in that as well.  But again, I think you're being somewhat unfair.. anyone would be offended if they continuously were told they weren't wanted; it's not matter of "prizes".

If Dany is truly as magnanimous as folks claim and "didn't want Jon to bend the knee anymore," she shouldn't care if the North rejects her. Jon/the North just needs her army, they dont need her breaking the wheel platform or whatever political platform she's running on. If its a rejection of her as their ruler, she can either accept it or force them to kneel or die. Jon kneeling doesnt really mean anything, the power is with the lords. Dany cant claim Winterfell by marriage to him either. Now that RLJ is out of the bag, the Northerners have no reason to support a Targaryen restoration with two Targaryens, and they have no reason to support Jon and Dany as a "couple" because he gave the North away for love. If Jon keeps saying Dany is the Queen, he's kind of forced to say that because he needs her armies. 

[Jô Maltese]

Let's fuel the fire for Dany haters and Sansa (JonSa) lovers:

http://tiny-little-bird.tumblr.com/post/177348038876/jonsa-game-of-thrones-season-8-gif-au-sansas

[Rose of Red Lake]

25 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

How did we wind up with new Kings in The North this time?  Cue The GreatJon.  This may be a book quote, but it was for the most part included in the show: 

How is this scene about Northern independence, which is still very much a thing right now, evidence for the Northerners kneeling to a dragon queen? 

Emphasizing the word "wed." - If Sansa is a Northerner married to a dragon, it could be Jonsa foreshadowing. I'm a delusional Jonsa myself so, ask me anything.

I'm not understanding what Torrhen kneeling out of fear of what Aegon could do to his people is supposed to prove. Are you saying Jon knelt to Dany out of fear of what she could do to his people?

[TheSlayerofLies]

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany is truly as magnanimous as folks claim and "didn't want Jon to bend the knee anymore," she shouldn't care if the North rejects her. Jon/the North just needs her army, they dont need her breaking the wheel platform or whatever political platform she's running on. If its a rejection of her as their ruler, she can either accept it or force them to kneel or die. Jon kneeling doesnt really mean anything, the power is with the lords. Dany cant claim Winterfell by marriage to him either. Now that RLJ is out of the bag, the Northerners have no reason to support a Targaryen restoration with two Targaryens, and they have no reason to support Jon and Dany as a "couple" because he gave the North away for love. If Jon keeps saying Dany is the Queen, he's kind of forced to say that because he needs her armies. 

Well who knows? We're speculating at this point.  Nothing in Friki's leaks state that she'll give them the kneel or die ultimatum, but perhaps that will come next episode.  

I imagine the following episode will primarily consist of Jaime's arrival, finding out Cersei's plan to betray them,  the reactions to R+L=J, and the NK's arrival as a cliffhanger 

[kissdbyfire]

34 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the North!

Yup, I could see the show going there... And it would sort of make some sense. Appease the northerners by reminding them of all of that, and make it easier for them to accept Dany, especially if she marries her nephew (  ), who is Stark/Targ. The big question though is, will they? Will the show even bother explaining stuff and reminding the audience of something that happened all the way back in s 1? 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, I could see the show going there... And it would sort of make some sense. Appease the northerners by reminding them of all of that, and make it easier for them to accept Dany, especially if she marries her nephew (  ), who is Stark/Targ. The big question though is, will they? Will the show even bother explaining stuff and reminding the audience of something that happened all the way back in s 1? 

My meaning was about the marriage of the kingdoms, not individuals, LOL,  With the fate of the Greatjon barely understood show wise, I'm not certain of a totally matching followup scene.  But, it is a place to start. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

My meaning was about the marriage of the kingdoms, not individuals, LOL,  With the fate of the Greatjon barely understood show wise, I'm not certain of a totally matching followup scene.  But, it is a place to start. 

Yup, I got that. “It was the dragons we married” and all that. I was just expanding on it... they may bring that back, and this time there’s a literal marriage as well!

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, I got that. “It was the dragons we married” and all that. I was just expanding on it... they may bring that back, and this time there’s a literal marriage as well!

 

Oh, I didn't mind you expounding on it.  The funny thing is, I didn't even remember that, bookwise, the Greatjon used the word 'marriage.'  I always remembered that his premise was how much the situation had changed from about 300 years ago up until now.  It also dawned on me that we are back to having what he noticed was gone, Targs and dragons, LOL  Can I laugh if there is one more wedding even before the Battle of Winterfell? 

[Jô Maltese]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Oh, I didn't mind you expounding on it.  The funny thing is, I didn't even remember that, bookwise, the Greatjon used the word 'marriage.'  I always remembered that his premise was how much the situation had changed from about 300 years ago up until now.  It also dawned on me that we are back to having what he noticed was gone, Targs and dragons, LOL  Can I laugh if there is one more wedding even before the Battle of Winterfell? 

It could mirror the Pact of Ice and Fire during the Dance : 

Quote

At the start of the civil war, Prince Jacaerys Velaryon flew to Winterfell to gain House Stark and the North for the cause of his mother, Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen. According to Mushroom, Prince Jacaerys secretly married Lord Cregan Stark's bastard sister, Sara Snow, which led to the pact. (...)

A Wiki of Ice and Fire

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

6 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

It could mirror the Pact of Ice and Fire during the Dance : 

 

I'd mainly consider the idea of a quickie marriage to be about Jon's issue about growing up a bastard.  I could see him wanting to marry if Dany was pregnant.  I'd also like to unsee that thing you posted further up the thread, LOL  Just sayin'