Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Bradam]

Who is to say Jon will even mention the whole targ parent thing? He might believe his brother but everyone else will just thing he's nuts or it's a con. Only proof they have is a maesters poop diary? That just leaves  Howland Reed, who might not even know , atleast from the show they never filmed him inside close enough to hear Lyanna whisper to Ned who the father is. Ned could have easily just told him the father was some random farm hand or whatever.

[Error-504]

14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I really dont think Ned was thinking about Jon's inheritance rights to the North when he said that line. He said Jon doesn't have his name, and in the feudal system the name is all that matters. Being a blood relation isn't good enough to control Winterfell. Plus they already tried the "blood" relation when they appointed him king as "Ned Stark's son," and look how that turned out - he gave it to a Targaryen. Jon isn't really helping matters when he switches from Ned Stark's bastard to Lyanna's son, he still doesn't have the Stark name. 

Do you even watch the show? How is it that Robert Baretheon became King in the first place when they overthrew the Mad King? It was because Robert had some Targ blood in him threw some distant aunt/cousin/grandmother, giving him the better claim. 

[Error-504]

1 minute ago, Bradam said:

Who is to say Jon will even mention the whole targ parent thing? He might believe his brother but everyone else will just thing he's nuts or it's a con. Only proof they have is a maesters poop diary? That just leaves  Howland Reed, who might not even know , atleast from the show they never filmed him inside close enough to hear Lyanna whisper to Ned who the father is. Ned could have easily just told him the father was some random farm hand or whatever.

Two separate issues being discussed and some can't separate the two. 

1) In a feudal society, of the remaining players, who has the best claim to the throne?

And more importantly, in light of how the story has unfolded,

2) Who will actually sit on the Iron throne, and does succession even matter? 

[teej6]

18 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

As for Sansa's marriage to Tyrion: What's remarkable is that in the books, Jon insists WF belongs to Sansa anyway! It's magnificent. He restores the rights Robb took them away and its almost like he senses that the wedding was a sham anyway. If GRRM wanted to permanently keep Sansa from being a Stark at WF he would have had that marriage consummated.

I don’t mean to derail this thread but I just wanted to point out that Jon has no idea about Robb’s will and if he did, and if Robb did name him his heir, I suspect Jon would find it much easier accepting Winterfell from Robb than from Stannis.  In the books, Jon is not aware that Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion was not consummated or was a sham. How could he? There’s no indication in the text that anyone apart from the Lannisters (Tywin and perhaps Cersei) and LF knew about the marriage not being consummated. Why even Lysa had to be convinced by Sansa that she’s still a maid and Tyrion didn’t bed her. 

[Error-504]

5 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Two separate issues being discussed and some can't separate the two. 

1) In a feudal society, of the remaining players, who has the best claim to the throne?

And more importantly, in light of how the story has unfolded,

2) Who will actually sit on the Iron throne, and does succession even matter? 

Everyone is so obsessed with trying to figure out what plot twist we might see in the end game, now we have every whack-a-doodle coming out of the woodwork.. 

For instance, Harry Strickland becoming the King? Seriously?

After spending 7 years watch these characters grow up, evolve, die, etc we have a character that hasn't even existed show up in the last 5 episodes and claim the throne? Could anything be more moronic? 

[Error-504]

11 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don’t mean to derail this thread but I just wanted to point out that Jon has no idea about Robb’s will and if he did, and if Robb did name him his heir, I suspect Jon would find it much easier accepting Winterfell from Robb than from Stannis.  And Jon has no way of knowing that Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion was not consummated or was a sham. How would he? There’s no indication in the text that anyone apart from the Lannisters (Tywin and perhaps Cersei) and LF knew about the marriage not being consummated. Why even Lysa had to be convinced by Sansa that she’s still a maid and Tyrion didn’t bed her. 

Well, Tyrion himself told Jon the marriage wasn't consummated. Her marriage to Ramsey most certainly was, but not sure if your talking about show or books tbh. 

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Well, Tyrion himself told Jon the marriage wasn't consummated. Her marriage to Ramsey most certainly was, but not sure if your talking about show or books tbh. 

I’m talking about the books. Was responding to the poster who mentioned Robb’s will, which does not appear in the show. Again, didn’t mean to derail this thread but just wanted to respond to something I thought was incorrectly attributed to the text. 

[Mystical]

55 minutes ago, HouseLancaster said:

Also. Naming 'Cersi Lannister, first of her name' not Baratheon really bugged me. I've not given it too much thought or research but surely that would not be the way? Anyone know?

The best excuse you can make for Cersei being on the IT is that she took it by conquest (she has no right to it by the laws and rules of Westeros). In her case the conquest was blowing up the Vatican. And by any logic known to men (unless you are D&D of course) Cersei should be dead now. Not only did she kinslay (uncle Kevan) but the people of KL loved the Sparrow and his goons. After she destroyed the Sept the half million or more people in KL would have rioted and stormed the Red Keep and strung her up. But in S7 nothing of the sort happened and they loved their good Queen apparently.

[Error-504]

It all comes down to who you think will still be alive at the end. If you accept the huge amount of foreshadowing and think Dany will/is pregnant with Jon's child, I find it hard to believe Dany dies, at least not until child birth. And with six episodes left, unless we see a significant passing of time between the battle for WF, and the attack on KL, I cannot see a birth until the very end of the show. 

If Dany were to die during childbirth, that would leave Jon to raise the heir apparent until he becomes of age. However, if Jon were to legitimize Gendry, things get really interesting. Regardless of claim, I don't think Jon wants the IT anyways, and would turn it down. So maybe we get Gendry/Arya ruling as King and queen regent until the child of Jon and Dany becomes of age. 

[Error-504]

2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The best excuse you can make for Cersei being on the IT is that she took it by conquest (she has no right to it by the laws and rules of Westeros). In her case the conquest was blowing up the Vatican. And by any logic know to men (unless you are D&D of course) Cersei should be dead now. Not only did she kinslay (uncle Kevan) but the people of KL loved the Sparrow and his goons. After she destroyed the Sept the half million or more people in KL would have rioted and stormed the Red Keep and strung her up. But in S7 nothing of the sort happened and they loved their good Queen apparently.

They don't love her, they fear her. And as the wife of Robert Baretheon, she actually does have a claim, now that all of her children are dead. 

[HouseLancaster]

13 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The best excuse you can make for Cersei being on the IT is that she took it by conquest (she has no right to it by the laws and rules of Westeros). In her case the conquest was blowing up the Vatican. And by any logic known to men (unless you are D&D of course) Cersei should be dead now. Not only did she kinslay (uncle Kevan) but the people of KL loved the Sparrow and his goons. After she destroyed the Sept the half million or more people in KL would have rioted and stormed the Red Keep and strung her up. But in S7 nothing of the sort happened and they loved their good Queen apparently.

Yep. Everything you just said feeds into me thinking the Northern Political upheaval issues won't go past ep 3. D&D are all about the spectical now, not lore or details 

[HouseLancaster]

12 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

They don't love her, they fear her. And as the wife of Robert Baretheon, she actually does have a claim, now that all of her children are dead. 

True, but changing her name back to Lannister wouldn't be helpful for her Baretheon claim. I've made my peace with it though (ish)

[HouseLancaster]

18 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

It all comes down to who you think will still be alive at the end. If you accept the huge amount of foreshadowing and think Dany will/is pregnant with Jon's child, I find it hard to believe Dany dies, at least not until child birth. And with six episodes left, unless we see a significant passing of time between the battle for WF, and the attack on KL, I cannot see a birth until the very end of the show. 

If Dany were to die during childbirth, that would leave Jon to raise the heir apparent until he becomes of age. However, if Jon were to legitimize Gendry, things get really interesting. Regardless of claim, I don't think Jon wants the IT anyways, and would turn it down. So maybe we get Gendry/Arya ruling as King and queen regent until the child of Jon and Dany becomes of age. 

I used to think Arya Gendry too, not anymore, not Targ enough. I liked the theory that Sansa and Tyrion legitimised their marriage and ruled as regent for Jon and Dany's child, but again doesn't seem likely to me either now.

[Error-504]

9 minutes ago, HouseLancaster said:

True, but changing her name back to Lannister wouldn't be helpful for her Baretheon claim. I've made my peace with it though (ish)

Oh, I don't disagree, but typically the maesters have something to say in these matters iirc. don't they? At any rate, I don't think the show had enough time to delve into that whole mess. 

[Bradam]

He who has the biggest army rules. Or she.  You can make claims all day long, it sure helped Danys brother gain the crown.

Robert had no claim, he had the biggest army and support. Tywin opening the gates to kings landing sped things up for sure.  

[NonoNono]

1 hour ago, Bradam said:

Who is to say Jon will even mention the whole targ parent thing? He might believe his brother but everyone else will just thing he's nuts or it's a con. Only proof they have is a maesters poop diary? That just leaves  Howland Reed, who might not even know , atleast from the show they never filmed him inside close enough to hear Lyanna whisper to Ned who the father is. Ned could have easily just told him the father was some random farm hand or whatever.

I think Jon being Jon, he will have to tell people the truth. Tyrion told him he should learn to lie a little, and Jon rebuked him, well enough that even Tyrion accepted the rebuke. Jon always does what is "right", and is blamed for it like Ned was. But I agree they will either not believe it, thinking he is making up something to get a claim on the Iron Throne, or will hate him for it. Cat's quote in the teaser pretty much says the Starks are screwed because Jon wasn't loved like the others.

He who has the biggest army rules. Or she.  You can make claims all day long, it sure helped Danys brother gain the crown.

Robert had no claim, he had the biggest army and support. Tywin opening the gates to kings landing sped things up for sure.  

The best army, and "a good name", said Varys to Tyrion. Jon has no good name, he will be known as Snow, no matter what he or Bran claim. Sansa has no army. Cersei has no good name. Dany is ruining her name, but if a Aegon Targaryen leads the Golden Company to kill the only threat against King's Landing, the last dragon, it would make him a good Targ in the eyes of the people.

Aegon Targaryen VI would have a good name, and strong army:)

[Error-504]

40 minutes ago, HouseLancaster said:

I used to think Arya Gendry too, not anymore, not Targ enough. I liked the theory that Sansa and Tyrion legitimised their marriage and ruled as regent for Jon and Dany's child, but again doesn't seem likely to me either now.

Well, Arya Gendry as a possible temporary "thing" might still be possible,, but I am grasping at straws here, I will admit. But if you try to piece together a plotline that makes sense, based on what we know and what we think we know, you have to get from point A to point B. 

I think the Gendry/Arya scene was significant. 

I also think the foreshadowing of Dany becoming pregnant was VERY significant. Replace Dragos image with Jons in the visions she had at the temple of the undying. 

And what we have come to expect with the leaks in regards to the Dragonpit scene. In which Jon and Dany appear to have both been absent. Are they both dead? or is there another reason? Maybe Dany is giving birth? 

is this scene a trial?

Or is it an election? Not unlike the scene in which Jon was elected Lord Commander of the NW, and foreshadowed my Gendry in the video I posted earlier, in which a leader that was chosen has more significance than a leader that assumed power by birthright. 

[Error-504]

22 minutes ago, Bradam said:

He who has the biggest army rules. Or she.  You can make claims all day long, it sure helped Danys brother gain the crown.

Robert had no claim, he had the biggest army and support. Tywin opening the gates to kings landing sped things up for sure.  

It was decided who had the best claim amongst the conquerers,, Ned, Arryn or Robert. 

Towards the end of the war, Lord Robert Baratheon proclaimed his intend to claim the Iron Throne.^[61] Out of the three leaders of the rebellion, Robert had the better claim,^[62] due to the fact that his grandmother had been Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, the youngest daughter of King Aegon V Targaryen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen#A_Game_of_Thrones

[Error-504]

People forget the evolution of Dany. She at first never wanted to be Queen, or a ruler, or anything like that. She just wanted to go home. 

 

Later she was committed to not being ruler, but to giving birth to a ruler, the stallion that shall mount the world. Her objectives later changed only when she lost what she thought was that child, and faced with the very real possibility that she could never give birth again. Upon discovery of the fact she is in fact pregnant, it is not inconceivable her objectives change once again, with her being perfectly fine with not being ruler of Westeros, but in caring for and raising the child that will be.    

[Bradam]

20 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

It was decided who had the best claim amongst the conquerers,, Ned, Arryn or Robert. 

Towards the end of the war, Lord Robert Baratheon proclaimed his intend to claim the Iron Throne.^[61] Out of the three leaders of the rebellion, Robert had the better claim,^[62] due to the fact that his grandmother had been Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, the youngest daughter of King Aegon V Targaryen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen#A_Game_of_Thrones

To me that's more of an after the fact descion or excuse for the usurper.

I doubt Ned wanted it at all. No idea on Arryon's thoughts. They both had young Tully wives at home waiting on them.

Tywin: so who wants be king and marry my psyco daughter?

Ned/Arryn at the same time: Not it!