MelisandresBurningPanties Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Indeed 21st century soap opera ladies and dialogues in a medieval setting surely must be magic too.... Martin has said and explained endless times of how much his story is based on real history. and how he is writing more historical fiction than straight fantasy. Westeros is not a land in a vacuum filled and surrounded with anything the author chooses... it has a grounding and has been saluted in the beginning for this precise choice of doing fantasy feel like a historical real gritty world. Not Spice Girls in Westeros. So its a medievally inspired story , landscape , with laws, customs, weaponry, medicine, legal systems, feuds, monarchies , no modern schools and road systems ...but the people should behave , exist , speak and act like its the 2000's? You can surely see how that makes no sense... Aragorn should have banged eowyn after the first cup they shared like a real ladies man then ... or perhaps she should have pushed him to the walls of theodens' hall and banged him right there.... how did Tolkien miss this ? None of those elements which constitute the fantastical icing on the cake , so to speak, negate the fact that G.Martin has studied , read a lot of history, and historical fiction for the purpose of writing these novels that are inspired precisely on medieval history , not little red riding hood and the seven dwarfs : the feministic version/ teenaged / girl power version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, Error-504 said: What does this prove, exactly? That because these things do exist, so should feminism? Uh, no. It means quit expecting fantasy fiction to be historically accurate in any way. Including an ice zombie apocalypse should tell you what the author's priorities are in regards to historical accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, MelisandresBurningPanties said: Indeed 21st century soap opera ladies and dialogues in a medieval setting surely must be magic too.... Martin has said and explained endless times of how much his story is based on real history. and how he is writing more historical fiction than straight fantasy. Westeros is not a land in a vacuum filled and surrounded with anything the author chooses... it has a grounding and has been saluted in the beginning for this precise choice of doing fantasy feel like a historical real gritty world. Not Spice Girls in Westeros. So its a medievally inspired story , landscape , with laws, customs, weaponry, medicine, legal systems, feuds, monarchies , no modern schools and road systems ...but the people should behave , exist , speak and act like its the 2000's? You can surely see how that makes no sense... Aragorn should have banged eowyn after the first cup they shared like a real ladies man then ... or perhaps she should have pushed him to the walls of theodens' hall and banged him right there.... how did Tolkien miss this ? None of those elements which constitute the fantastical icing on the cake , so to speak, negate the fact that G.Martin has studied , read a lot of history, and historical fiction for the purpose of writing these novels that are inspired precisely on medieval history , not little red riding hood and the seven dwarfs : the feministic version/ teenaged / girl power version. Oh please... Arguments and disagreements happen, then and now, between all sorts of people. That’s not the issue at all. And please, leave Martin out this, there’s nothing in the books that compares to the utter idiocy that all show characters suffer from. And yes, especially the women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 https://static.hitek.fr/img/up_m/534387296/55726225_2218587778201118_4808435438010236928_n.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelisandresBurningPanties Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 i can't leave him out since his world and what inspired him to create it and what it is - a medieval continent , not a 20th century one- which inspired the series is the same : westeros , with all the people , laws, customs , and structure that should exist in such a society. The tv people , by inserting such idiocy as you say do it a great disservice. Characters no longer feel as real organic characters , people have complained... well one of the reasons is this , i think. that and the corny , unsophisticated dialogues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st Century Moose Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Mystical said: What did you expect? For women to be realistically written on this show? Surely you jest. It's interesting that you say that. What do you think a realistic portrayal of women would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 34 minutes ago, 21st Century Moose said: It's interesting that you say that. What do you think a realistic portrayal of women would be? Well, there was a moment of a realistic portrayal of a medieval Castle Lady in the show, and that was Sansa thinking ahead about supplies for an ever increasing number of displaced refugees and hopefully ever increasing number of fighters, armies, and all the animals that come with that. It was done awkwardly because this is HBO GOT, particularly the scripted dialog that went with it, but that is indeed what ladies of castles in medieval eras did, among a very large number of other directions that they oversaw -- including, more often than not, finding the funds for the weapons, armor, payment for the soldiers, and everything else. Which to me, means more than anything else, that at this moment, of crazy dead people marching at Winterfell, Sansa, more than anything else, upon meeting Daenerys, her soldiers, her dragons and other resources, would be thrilled. She wouldn't give a loose shyte about bending the knee or love or anything else -- she would be thrilled that Jon brought Winterfell a goddmned fighting chance.* But no -- D&D have to make drama! drama! drama! between two females catfighting. That's just, stoopid. Really stupid. As if an army of the dead in the north and Cersei and whatever else in the south isn't source enough for drama. Pullllleeeeeeeeeeeeze. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * Ya, I read a shyte load of history; it's in my job description -- including all the novels that make up the Accursed Kings which shows the end of France's Capetian dynasty and the utter catastrophe that envelops France with the end of that monarchy while the Valois try to find their footing. This isn't the War of the Roses, this is historical fiction by a French writer about French history, translated into english, from which GRRM gleaned most of his inspirations, from the small council, to the bannermen, to names such as Brienne and Loris, the concept of giant twin knights, etc. And most of all, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and the first novel, named The Iron King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Error-504 said: It means there's no rightful queen at all as the KitN isn't married. It's been made clear that the North rejects Jon's grounds for kneeling. Has it? In my world, the first episode has yet to air. So, the KitN doens'nt have the option to choose his own bride? Must he consult Sansa first? Is that what your saying? Or is it that Jon was made KitN until he makes a decision that not everyone likes? What the heck good is that? Hey Jon, your KitN!...Well, kinda, but not really....... As for the rest......yeah ok, they are ornery.....so what? 3 hours ago, Error-504 said: From the Sansa interview................ "Her relationship with Jon is struggling because he’s so clearly in love with Daenerys and believes in her completely. Sansa thinks she’s power-hungry and not the rightful queen. There’s a huge amount of fighting between Sansa and Jon." Odd choice of words, I wonder in her mind, who the "rightful Queen" would be? Cersei? Her? Bolded: You're accepting part of your quote sight unseen, and turning around to dismiss stuff you don't like by claiming it's as yet sight unseen. Cherry picking. The North is ornery, so any objections to Dany can't be blamed on Sansa just being a bitch. From an aired episode which makes it very clear what "not the rightful queen" means, especially in conjunction with the content from my previous post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3L5J-HL2YY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 35 minutes ago, Zorral said: Which to me, means more than anything else, that at this moment, of crazy dead people marching at Winterfell, Sansa, more than anything else, upon meeting Daenerys, her soldiers, her dragons and other resources, would be thrilled. She wouldn't give a loose shyte about bending the knee or love or anything else -- she would be thrilled that Jon brought Winterfell a goddmned fighting chance.* But no -- D&D have to make drama! drama! drama! between two females catfighting. That's just, stoopid. Really stupid. As if an army of the dead in the north and Cersei and whatever else in the south isn't source enough for drama. Pullllleeeeeeeeeeeeze. Should Sansa be happy that Danerys is coming to her aid? Absolutely. Should she be happy that she now has to subject herself to Dany’s rule? Absolutely not. Sansa is not being catty. She has a genuine concern about Danerys and whatever hold she has over her brother, especially considering the crimes Dany’s family committed against Sansa’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: Should Sansa be happy that Danerys is coming to her aid? Absolutely. Should she be happy that she now has to subject herself to Dany’s rule? Absolutely not. Sansa is not being catty. She has a genuine concern about Danerys and whatever hold she has over her brother, especially considering the crimes Dany’s family committed against Sansa’s. So. We all KNOW this without even seeing the episode? And even if this is what is going to happen, it's still stupid writing of character and plot. At best it would be another fabrication of faux cat fighting as with Sansa and Arya and the Little Finger blow-off. The wails and gnashes are the only thing I with confidence will predict. Also, all the bending of the knee thing is just historically hilarious. Kings and king's heirs and others were bending the knee all the time and beyond a temporary brokerage of peace and, maybe cooperation, it meant exactly diddly squat. Look at all the times Henry II's sons were bending the knees to him and France, how often the Edwards were bending knees to France -- while then going on to conquer most of it -- and so on and so forth. Yes, I know a great deal about medieval history. Again just frackin' bad writing by D&D who don't know any history either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Lollygag said: Bolded: You're accepting part of your quote sight unseen, and turning around to dismiss stuff you don't like by claiming it's as yet sight unseen. Cherry picking. The North is ornery, so any objections to Dany can't be blamed on Sansa just being a bitch. From an aired episode which makes it very clear what "not the rightful queen" means, especially in conjunction with the content from my previous post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3L5J-HL2YY What on earth are you talking about? the parts you bolded are far from any proof of anything, except your inability to understand what you read.the second bolded part is from an interview from the actress that plays Sansa, not me. One would think she has a little insight into the matter of how Sansa is going to react, wouldn't they? good Lord.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 34 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: Should Sansa be happy that Danerys is coming to her aid? Absolutely. Should she be happy that she now has to subject herself to Dany’s rule? Absolutely not. Sansa is not being catty. She has a genuine concern about Danerys and whatever hold she has over her brother, especially considering the crimes Dany’s family committed against Sansa’s. So she should be more concerned about the crimes Dany's father committed against her family, then the ones Cersei herself has committed? Do you even watch the show? You do realize, sooner or later, the North will have to support one or the other, or go to war with withever ones wins between Cersei vs Dany, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 22 minutes ago, Zorral said: So. We all KNOW this without even seeing the episode? And even if this is what is going to happen, it's still stupid writing of character and plot. At best it would be another fabrication of faux cat fighting as with Sansa and Arya and the Little Finger blow-off. The wails and gnashes are the only thing I with confidence will predict. It’s not stupid writing at all. D&D aren’t writing a fairy tale where all the characters would automatically get along. They are writing a story with realistic characters who naturally would have trust issues, especially considering everything Sansa has been through. I notice that you only use cat fighting when discussing women. Would you call Renly/Stannis cat fighting? How about Roose/Ramsay? Jon/Janos? Theon/Balon? I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point. Sansa and Arya’s fight was very real. There was nothing fake about it. I’m not sure what you mean by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 I dont know if it really qualifies as faux drama. I think opposition to Dany is the drama. For the first time, she won't win submissive followers just by virtue of riding her dragons and being fireproof. Let's see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Mystical said: The rightful Queen of the North is my opinion, not all of Westeros. No one in the North chose her (they chose Jon). Dany didn't conquer the North (which still wouldn't make her 'rightful'). I don't think Sansa is thinking about all of Westeros which would be in line with Sansa thinking 'I barely have enough to feed the people, wtf am I going to feed those dragons?'. Ha! You mean the Sansa that had all the food shipped to WF, that will have been completely destroyed after the WW's attack? Good planning Sansa, put all your supplies in one spot (ala pearl harbor), brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Error-504 said: So she should be more concerned about the crimes Dany's father committed against her family, then the ones Cersei herself has committed? Do you even watch the show? You do realize, sooner or later, the North will have to support one or the other, or go to war with withever ones wins between Cersei vs Dany, right? What are you talking about? What does Cersei have to do with the North not bending the knee to Danerys? Naturally, if they want to keep their independence, they would have to fight for it. That was never in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: What are you talking about? What does Cersei have to do with the North not bending the knee to Danerys? Naturally, if they want to keep their independence, they would have to fight for it. That was never in question. Should Dany had demanded Jon bend the knee before she committed her forces to the Northern cause, what then? Should Jon had denied her help and had the North go it alone against the WW's? How would the North have reacted to this scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Error-504 said: Should Dany had demanded Jon bend the knee before she committed her forces to the Northern cause, what then? Should Jon had denied her help and had the North go it alone against the WW's? How would the North have reacted to this scenario? I obviously haven’t explained myself properly. I do believe that Jon did the right thing in bending the knee, but I can also see Sansa’s side of things. I don’t think Sansa is simply being “catty,” but has a genuine concern with Danerys and won’t warm to her right away. Hopefully, she sees what Jon sees quickly, preferably before the White Walkers arrive. I hate the word “catty” by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: I obviously haven’t explained myself properly. I do believe that Jon did the right thing in bending the knee, but I can also see Sansa’s side of things. I don’t think Sansa is simply being “catty,” but has a genuine concern with Danerys and won’t warm to her right away. Hopefully, she sees what Jon sees quickly, preferably before the White Walkers arrive. I hate the word “catty” by the way. Under the circumstances, Sansa should immediately fall to her knees and kiss Dany's feet. After about 30 minutes of foot kissing, she should then turn to Jon and ask his forgiveness about once again making a huge tactical blunder by placing the entirety of the North's food supply at ground zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystical Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 hours ago, MelisandresBurningPanties said: i can't leave him out since his world and what inspired him to create it and what it is - a medieval continent , not a 20th century one- which inspired the series is the same : westeros , with all the people , laws, customs , and structure that should exist in such a society. The tv people , by inserting such idiocy as you say do it a great disservice. Characters no longer feel as real organic characters , people have complained... well one of the reasons is this , i think. that and the corny , unsophisticated dialogues. Oh please, people need to stop with the 'medieval time period' excuse. Other than broad strokes, this is nothing like it was in our world. And lets not forget that the people in that world aren't even real humans apparently. Where are all the plagues? What about sexually transmitted diseases? All that incest and no birth defects except a slight chance for mental craziness? What about the raping among the armies (winning vs losing side)? People don't have enough to eat and track miles through the snow and don't lose weight? Why hasn't society or technology developed further in thousands of years? Why does everyone have perfect white teeth and the women all have perfect eyebrows and shaved pits/legs? And then there is magic, dragons, non-human races like the Children. 33 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: For the first time, she won't win submissive followers just by virtue of riding her dragons and being fireproof. God forbid someone doesn't immediately fall in love with Dany like everyone else does on this show. Oh the horror. I mean it's ok for Jon to take months to warm up to her but the Northern Lords or Sansa or Arya aren't even allowed 5 min before they are called out by fans for being 'insert negative word of your choice here'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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