Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[divica]

24 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Turning his back on whatever confederacy is left of the Six Kingdoms (the North will be free again, and Sansa its Queen) to disappear back into the world of the Wildlings where he can reunite with Ghost and Tormund is by far the sweeter destiny for Jon than a bitter life stuck in a pointy chair surrounded by the same plots and scheming that have consumed so many Starks, including his own close family.

Northerners are not meant for Southron intrigues. The social cues are all wrong. One of the very few Starks who can be said to have been successful in the capital was Lord Cregan Stark, who served as Hand for a single day at the end of the Dance of Dragons after Aegon II perished by poison. A day was all he needed, just long enough to pass judgement on the Greens, quickly marry a Blackwood, and return to Winterfell.

Let Jon fade into legend. We shall not see his like again.

The problem with all this is that Jon would be miserable living with the wildlings. 

We are talking about a dude used to civilization. That loves his family, that loves Winterfell, loves the north... He would abandon all he knows to live among the wildlings while the rest of westeros suffers... 

This isn t a happy ending. This is someone running away and living alone because he is miserable. It is an awful ending that makes Jon's entire story stupid. 

If he had Val or if ran away with Danny it could be understood. However the story you are presenting is awful. 

[divica]

6 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

This wouldn't be abandoning the north, only the south — who quite frankly deserve abandonment.

Plus just think of all those lands turning fertile enough for crops and easier living once the seasons return to their annual cycle!  Maybe the waterfall won't be frozen so much.

It is abandoning the north. He wouldn t be involved with the affairs in the north because he would be living in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of savages he has very little in common. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

If he had Val or if ran away with Danny it could be understood. However the story you are presenting is awful. 

I doubt he'd be wholly alone. And he might even be the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Somehow.

He'd probably visit his family in Winterfell from time to time, just as his Uncle Benjen did. But if he does take Danny as a Benjen-style Night's Queen, then he'll be busy enough.

[Xemi]

19 minutes ago, divica said:

Martin made a will naming Jon King in the north ages ago. Whatever they say is just fanfiction to justify whatever the show will do. 

The idea that Jon will simply abandon the north, his family and the other kingdoms to fend for themselves after all these crisis is laughable. 

And would be character assasination of the highest order, but since this is Dumb&Dumber we're talking about, it can certainly happen.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem with all this is that Jon would be miserable living with the wildlings. 

We are talking about a dude used to civilization. That loves his family, that loves Winterfell, loves the north... He would abandon all he knows to live among the wildlings while the rest of westeros suffers... 

This isn t a happy ending. This is someone running away and living alone because he is miserable. It is an awful ending that makes Jon's entire story stupid. 

If he had Val or if ran away with Danny it could be understood. However the story you are presenting is awful. 

I agree - whatever happens, killing the woman he loves, in the way I think he will do it, is not a happy ending. happy for sansa maybe, but devastating for him. he loves his family, yes, but the point of his departure from ghost and what happens to rhaegal is that he is a ghost, in limbo and has no family. he does not consider himself a stark - with his talk to sansa and arya. he does not conider himself a dragon, either and the death of rhaegal severs his connection to dany. the only chance they have is for her to be pregnant, but I do not think this will happen and dany will take a knife to the heart and the wheel will be broken.

[Vaith]

I definitely think it's far more likely that the throne will be destroyed next week than having a surprise candidate at a Great Council, especially when that candidate is the Stark Benioff & Weiss are clearly the least interested in.

[divica]

8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I doubt he'd be wholly alone. He'd probably visit his family in Winterfell from time to time, just as his Uncle Benjen did. But if he does take Danny as a Benjen-style Night's Queen, then he'll be busy enough.

 

8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I doubt he'd be wholly alone. He'd probably visit his family in Winterfell from time to time, just as his Uncle Benjen did. But if he does take Danny as a Benjen-style Night's Queen, then he'll be busy enough.

It would be much better if he and Danny just spent the rest of their mortal or immortal lives in the waterfall of the first ep and the show ending with someone finding them after a lot of time has passed

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

1 minute ago, divica said:

 

It would be much better if he and Danny just spent the rest of their mortal or immortal lives in the waterfall of the first ep and the show ending with someone finding them after a lot of time has passed

yes I would like that but not brutal enough and not enough shock value for the show, perfect for an old romantic like me lol

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

yes I would like that but not brutal enough and not enough shock value for the show, perfect for an old romantic like me lol

It has a good amount of bitter and sweet... 

It would also be interesting if the person in black robes in the trailer is daario coming to join Cersei against Danny. Then Danny snapping could be because he tells her that he brought slavery back to meereen. 

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

I like the waterfall theory, with them raising their child...

[Torienne]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did he? I’d love to read that... do you remember where/when it was?

NCW really did a superb job w/ the awful stuff he’s been given. Jaime is definitely not one of the Ds favourite! 

My name is not Sansa; I am an oath keeper.

And I found it:

NCW talking about his difficulties as an actor not knowing his character arc but having to improvise since he came back to watch Cersei´s crowning... Starting at about 6:40 up to 8:40

Interesting, isn't it.

[kissdbyfire]

@Torienne, thank you! 

I’m really looking forward to watching this.

[Lollygag]

I went into the show expecting a lot of plot changes and perhaps some character changes because of the adaptation problems. I don't see show x as book x and I'm only really, really bothered when they screw with core themes or they start butchering the heart of the character which I expected to be kept in tact. The differences between the show characters and book characters have become so pronounced that the fandom has had to resort to Larry/Jaime, Carol/Sheryl/Cersei, Wolverine/Arya, Sandra/Sansa, Tyrion/St Tyrion, Stany/Dany (made that up myself as they've turned Dany into Stannis for some reason and I just need to differentiate them at this point), Branbot/Bran, and I feel like I'm forgetting some. Adding: Jon/Westerosi Jesus but I really like Blacknerdproblem's Pomade Jesus.

But the show is supposedly using the book character endings which won't fit at all for whatever the show characters plot devices have morphed into. It's sort of jarring as I'm having to mentally remorph the show and book characters back together without the development time from TWOW and ADOS in order to reconcile where they are now and where they'll end up. 

Folks are discussing show Jon's possible ending. Book Jon is a vastly different character, and the problem is we don't know if he'll be resurrected or will survive (I'm in the survive camp myself) and how he'll change for all of that. But anticipating how the book characters will end sounds like how we'll have to reconcile the show ending for the characters. The biggest thing for me is that book Jon has a temper that show Jon doesn't, book Jon is smart and engaged where show Jon disappears, broods and is bloody idiot, and book Jon is ambitious (he still struggles with the bastard thing and was really, really tempted by Stannis' Winterfell offer) but show Jon is Westerosi Jesus. How do you give these two very different people the same ending and have it make sense? 

My brain feels like a pretzel. This is so stupid.

 

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I went into the show expecting a lot of plot changes and perhaps some character changes because of the adaptation problems. I don't see show x as book x and I'm only really, really bothered when they screw with core themes or they start butchering the heart of the character which I expected to be kept in tact. The differences between the show characters and book characters have become so pronounced that the fandom has had to resort to Larry/Jaime, Carol/Sheryl/Cersei, Wolverine/Arya, Sandra/Sansa, Tyrion/St Tyrion, Stany/Dany (made that up myself as they've turned Dany into Stannis for some reason and I just need to differentiate them at this point), Branbot/Bran, and I feel like I'm forgetting some. Jon definitely needs a counterpart name. 

But the show is supposedly using the book character endings which won't fit at all for whatever the show characters plot devices have morphed into. It's sort of jarring as I'm having to mentally remorph the show and book characters back together without the development time from TWOW and ADOS in order to reconcile where they're going and where they'll end up. 

Folks are discussing show Jon's possible ending. Book Jon is a vastly different character, and the problem is we don't know if he'll be resurrected or will survive (I'm in the survive camp myself) and how he'll change for all of that. But anticipating how the book characters will end sounds like how we'll have to reconcile the show ending for the characters. The biggest thing for me is that book Jon has a temper that show Jon doesn't, book Jon is smart and engaged where show Jon disappears and broods, and book Jon is ambitious (he still struggles with the bastard thing and was really, really tempted by Stannis' Winterfell offer) but show Jon is Westerosi Jesus. How do you give these two very different people the same ending and have it make sense? 

My brain feels like a pretzel. This is so stupid. 

 

I think you make a great point of trying to shoe horn the book endings into the show. both different entities and bitter pills to swallow for characters that have had fantastic journeys only to regress this season

[Kaguya]

4 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

We don't know yet. But why would poetic justice be a problem here? It worked out well enough when the dragon caused the same to happen in The Fall of the House of Usher, so a bit of an homage would be nicely literary.

It would be a problem because it derives Jaime’s arc. They’ve also got too much history for some shitty Disney cliche death to come in the way of that.

[Leticia Stark]

Jon is really going to be an Frodo copy, huh?

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 5/4/2019 at 9:40 PM, Maia said:

It seemed like the   stuff in WoIaF and FaB with women being repeatedly passed over as heirs was a set-up for Dany buckling the trend, but apparently not... So will it be Sansa or is it going to be straight-up "back to the blessed patriarchy!" kind  of deal with Jon or a bastard of  Robert ending up as the "good" king? With Dany anding up as yet another cautionary tale, justifying the status quo? Speaking of the most cliche way to go, which is, apparently, supposed to be the result of all the subversions. Unfortunatly, I do not think that Sansa was sufficiently built up as a believable replacement for Dany in the show, much less in the books. 

Sansa was never supposed to replace Dany. Sansa was built up as a queen consort who is the power behind the man (a la Joanna Lannister, Catelyn, Samantha Tarly, Rhaenys, Alysanne). She was given game playing skills so she can help Jon. Jon is the true king of Westeros who is a reconstructed Aragorn, not a deconstructed one. That means GRRM wanted to illustrate why Aragorn would actually be a good king instead of just telling us he is. If Jon kills Dany then it also reflects on all of his statements about characters being darker after resurrection and why a good man doesn't necessarily make a good king.

Dany was a ruling queen in Essos - she did a lot of good there and just because she didn't get another throne on another continent doesn't mean the author is a raging sexist who won't let women rule.

Fire and Blood was never set up for Dany to rule. It was clearly written to establish why the Targaryen dynasty must end. It illustrates the fallacy of ruling through nuclear weapons. 

I always saw Dany as just a very convincing misdirect, and a lot of people fell for the trap of her POV. Also, it makes no sense to have a character who wants to possess power that badly, and then have them get exactly what they want. 

[lakin1013]

11 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Vanity Fair can imagine it, and they may not be wrong. They present reasoned arguments for why Martin is certainly NOT planning on turning Jon into some Aragorn-like figure. But at least he’ll get to pet Ghost.

The VF article is a very interesting argument, taking Martin's love for Tolkien's work and applying it to main characters in the show.  The argument is well-reasoned and supported.  It is a good read. 

[Nowy Tends]

11 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

The VF article is a very interesting argument, taking Martin's love for Tolkien's work and applying it to main characters in the show.  The argument is well-reasoned and supported.  It is a good read. 

it's been forever since I read Tolkien but this article is indeed an interesting read.

[divica]

I was on reddit and they found an interesting thing.

In these postcards released by HBO

http://musebycl.io/film-tv/hbo-made-best-mothers-day-cards-celebrating-daenerys-cersei-and-other-moms

daenerys has a sword… And only the spanish leak talked about her getting a sword. So it was either said with these postcards in mind or at least it gives them some chance to be true...