Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Nowy Tends]

6 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Hope it works.  Also on the main page (where all the t-shirts are...It is labeled as new.

https://shop.hbo.com/collections/game-of-thrones-shirts/products/game-of-thrones-sigil-black-tee

This is what I get:

HBO has decided to cease operation of the HBO UK, FR, DE, & EU Shops. We are no longer offering merchandise for sale through these portals. Below, you can find out about other HBO products and how to stay connected to your favorite HBO shows.

[teej6]

13 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Hope it works.  Also on the main page (where all the t-shirts are...It is labeled as new.

https://shop.hbo.com/collections/game-of-thrones-shirts/products/game-of-thrones-sigil-black-tee

Wow! this to me is a huge spoiler. I don’t believe the King Branbot leak is happening (I hope not). I remember for the final after party (where Kit was DJing or something), the combined Stark/Targ sigil was put up on a monitor. Here’s the reddit link: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bl32z0/this_photo_was_taken_at_an_s8_after_party/

It looks like the same sigil. 

[teej6]

13 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This is what I get:

HBO has decided to cease operation of the HBO UK, FR, DE, & EU Shops. We are no longer offering merchandise for sale through these portals. Below, you can find out about other HBO products and how to stay connected to your favorite HBO shows.

Link still works for me. 

[divica]

14 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This is what I get:

HBO has decided to cease operation of the HBO UK, FR, DE, & EU Shops. We are no longer offering merchandise for sale through these portals. Below, you can find out about other HBO products and how to stay connected to your favorite HBO shows.

It is basically a black T shirt with the targ simbol and the stark simbol pasted over.

After this week's ep with the starks turning against danny the t shirts don t make much sense. If jon ends up killing her then they are just stupid...

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Link still works for me. 

That’s weird. It works for me.  Just go to the HBO store and look for it.  EDIT:  Sorry....I should have responded to Nowy Ends.

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

@sweetsunray My quoting isn't working too:

 Viserys was already narcissistic and paranoid even before he met the Dothraki. I don't have the quotes with me but Dany mentioned in her first chapter how Viserys would always tell her that people were trying to kill them, but she never saw any of them. And I don't need to mention the multiple times Dany has memories of him being abusive to her. It isn't Viserys' inability to make allies with an unfamiliar culture that made him paranoid and narcissistic, he was already paranoid and narcissistic, to begin with.

I never claimed that the Dothraki made Viserys narcissistic and paranoid. I've had a relationship with a psychopath once. So, I know very well how a personality disorder isn't some circumstantial response. So, yeah, I fully agree that Viserys has a narcissistic personality disorder, and paranoia is one of its aspects. But the situation with the Dothraki exasperated it severely. I guess we can close any further debate upon Viserys himself.

9 hours ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

Your point lies on the assumption that Dany's inability to work with politically with people other than the Dothraki (which I disagree with but will get to later) will somehow make her paranoid and narcissistic like Viserys.

No. That is not what I am saying at all.

My point is GRRM's point: If a King [or queen] is a noble one or a shit (paraphrasing here), and you wonder why he is that way you check what his father was like and his father before him. GRRM recognizes both genetic influences as well as environmental upbringing influences, and also recognizes that even genetic influences are not black or white, but can manifest along a spectrum.

Aerys was a major shit. He was pathological even before he was "mad". His charming ways, his promise making but never delivering, his womanizing and his envy of Tywin as a younger adult as well as his sadism much later in life reveals he had a personality disorder before whatever other pathology reared its ugly head. Such disordered persons also tend to favor the child showing the most promise of having a personality disorder too as the golden child. So, Viserys also was heavily influenced genetically. Aerys' favouring of him encouraged him too. 

Dany does not show such traits as a youngster. So, I do not regard her as personality disordered or even a machiavelist. But she does show moments of callousness and indifference and her empathy towards others even when she expresses it can be superficial or somewhat self-absorbed. She is not without the ability to feel empathy though, because she has an instinctive response of disgust to cruelty, which prompts her to her breaker-of-chains mission. I just would not call her an empath.

She is however heavily influenced by Viserys as he was her sole and/or major caretaker for 8 years of her life. He was her surrogate parent.

9 hours ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

If that was the case, why didn't she become so when the Qartheen didn't support her with armies? Why didn't she become so when the initial negotiations for the Unsullied didn't go as planned?

Because she was still developing and processing a lot mentally, nor has she yet perceived herself as having a messianic destiny in Qarth, and her messianic goal is born because of what she learns about the Unsullied. And I find it absurd to portray this as a switch instead of a process, and a complex one at that.

But let's look at the three times that Viserys appears in her visions after he died:

• when she gives birth to a stillbirth, she beliieves Drogo is likely dead, and the khalasar tried to stone her and most left
• in Qarth, at the HotU, after having shopped at other factions and having no one else tu turn to anymore for help
• in the Dothraki Sea, after Mereen, and she perceives her Mereen-peace a failure (I think her perception is wrong, but that's not the point of discussion here imo; it's how Dany perceives it that is imporntant)

Hmmm, interesting, her visions of him coincide during moments of perceived failure or deep loss. But there are also differences in how she perceives Viserys in each of those visions.

• during the childbirthing, she perceives him as the abusive menace he was
• in the HotU vision, she perceives him as an accuser
• in the Dothraki Sea at the end of aDwD, she starts with putting the responsibility all on Viserys, expecting him to accuse her, but he responds by telling her what his intentions were, his defence, and they are positive goals: he wanted to take care of her, did it for her.

That's even more interesting. Even though Dany does not recognize having any responsibility in his demise (and her sole responsibility was that she simply did nothing to stop what she understood Drogo was about to do), her actively trying to argue what mistakes he made, hint that at a subconscious level, Dany feels guilt over how he died. And the most interesting change is how she alters the narrative of Viserys. In the 3rd vision, Viserys becomes a sympathetic figure.

The menacing Viserys is not one she would identify with. A far more sympathetic Viserys though does enable her to identify with him more.

Based on this pattern we can make the following predictions: she will have more visions that include Viserys, at least once more, until he has completely decomposed (his image as corpse is starting to lose bits of body). And this Viserys will become a most beloved ideal brother, she can mourn. This alternative Viserys (we can't call him the original anymore, since his narrative will have changed) will show up as vision after a painful loss and feelings of failure. How about after losing Viserion? This was the dragon she named after her brother, and as white and golden dragon he represents a purified Viserys. And once Viserys is remembered as this ideal lost brother, she will identify with him more, and also start to behave more like him. We can then expect scenes such as the show gave us where Dany fondly remembers all the cruel things Viserys and her would do to this or that person who helped in the downfall of her father's reign or the flight from Dragonstone.

BTW Viserys is not the sole person in her vision of aDwD whose narrative has changed. In real life, Jorah started out as the one who held the ideal ruler picture before her, and how that wasn't Viserys. That's when she inevitably began to question whether she wouldn't make for a better one (treason in her head). But she sent him away for his betrayal, and in aDwD he as lost to her as Viserys. She clearly misses him. Vision-Jorah advizes her to accept she is a dragon whose words are "fire and blood", euhm which is the opposite of how Jorah had pictured an ideal ruler for her in aGot, and the opposite of what type of ruler she attempted to be in Mereen and in her eyes failed to render positive results. So, here she uses the memory of Jorah as the one who teaches her how to rule, except she changes the teaching to fit her instinct. In Mereen, she tried to be a ruler that Westeros would need as Jorah told her once, believes she failed at it, and ends up using vision-Jorah to justify being the opposite of that.

Makes me wonder what type of advice a vision of Selmy will end up giving her in her mind, once she loses him? Perhaps that advice will sound more true if it came from Daario Naharis? 

Anyway, my point is that loss combined with feelings of failure and frustration over subjects not responding to her like a khalasar makes Dany alter the narrative and advice of the role models and advizers in her life to suit her dragon instincts. This was also exemplified in the show with Missandai's last words, except in the show they actually made Missandei say it: "Dracarys". Naathi are such peaceful people that they even refuse to defend themselves when attacked. That even such a pro-peace personality ends up saying Dracarys completely justifies in Dany's mind the killing of innocent smallfolk and sacking a city more akin to the Dothraki. The peaceful enslaved becoming the slave captures narrative.

Can't happen? She's already doing it in her last chapter in aDwD, and while it reads exhilerating in her last chapter, it foreshadows more narrative twisting by Dany herself to justify whatever atrocity she intends to commit.

 

[Nowy Tends]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

After this week's ep with the starks turning against danny the t shirts don t make much sense. If jon ends up killing her then they are just stupid...

Yes, that's an other evidence that these leaks are bogus… I'm not a fan of the "Spanish leak" but it's more credible to me…

[divica]

1 minute ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yes, that's an other evidence that these leaks are bogus… I'm not a fan of the "Spanish leak" but it's more credible to me…

I think it is more credible for everyone.

However it has probs… Like what happens with varys? In the photos we see jon arriving at dragonstone and talking with varys but the leak doesn t mention it… I think that the embracing scene between danny and jon the leaks talk about happens toward the beguining instead of the end. 

And the leak has no idea what tyrion does to betray them or who the hooded person is...

[Rose of Red Lake]

There is something that bothers me about the King Bran/Jon joins the NW leaks that were posted by throwaway 10 days ago. Arya does nothing in E5 or E6. Is she basically done in E4? Also no wildfire explosion, which was foreshadowed heavily. 

[Nightwish]

6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There is something that bothers me about the King Bran/Jon joins the NW leaks that were posted by throwaway 10 days ago. Arya does nothing in E5 or E6. Is she basically done in E4? Also no wildfire explosion, which was foreshadowed heavily. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bkc8xd/compilation_of_spoilers_for_got_episodes_46/

if you read it (go to the end particularly) you will find some info about Arya.

[Nightwish]

14 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Vanity Fair can imagine it, and they may not be wrong. They present reasoned arguments for why Martin is certainly NOT planning on turning Jon into some Aragorn-like figure. But at least he’ll get to pet Ghost.

The article is not bad, since all the leaks are suggesting this as part of the ending, but the ending itself is especially since it's a copy paste from LOTR. 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, divica said:

It would be completly out of character of him to abandon his familly or the responsability he has to westeros because he killed danny. Besides the fact that it would make the whole r+l=j the most stupid plot device used in literature… At this point, if danny daies jon has to be king… 

And jon was only ok with not being a ranger because they explained to him that he was being prepared to be LC. He was groomed to lead since for ever...

The poor battle comander is because D&D can t write a fucking battle, he was sociable in the feast after the battle of winterfell, sansa didn t do shit when they were trying to win the north to fight against ramsay...

Jon was going to just wander around until Sansa came along and kicked his ass into gear. Without Sansa, Ramsey would still have Winterfell and Jon would be...random Westerosi #2165464. 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

You must have missed that brief moment when she delivered a whole army to save the day.

 

I agree all that fuss over r+l=j is probably going to turn out to be an enormous red herring.

Northerns aren t people from the vale. IT were the northerns that named him king. She didn t help anything with that.

Think you didn't understand the reply. Sansa delivered the Vale army at the last second (ugh) which turned the battle of Winterfell and the Vale was still there to fight the WWs. Bronze Yohn follows Sansa like a puppy, not Jon. She also warned Jon about Ramsey which he didn't listen to - and she turned out to be right. 

 

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

Another interesting read.  Dany defenders should like this one.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/9/18537013/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-daenerys-targaryen-mad-queen

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

The article is not bad, since all the leaks are suggesting this as part of the ending, but the ending itself is especially since it's a copy paste from LOTR. 

Yeah, they're mapping that part a bit too closely. I do think they do a better job of illustrating what would count as bittersweet in Martin's mind. The "heroes" of a war are always too damaged by it for a storybook ending.

[Torienne]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There is something that bothers me about the King Bran/Jon joins the NW leaks that were posted by throwaway 10 days ago. Arya does nothing in E5 or E6. Is she basically done in E4? Also no wildfire explosion, which was foreshadowed heavily. 

What about Arya killing Dany? 

(They brought me to the point where I do no longer search for any logic in the story. I just ask myself where D&D will assume the biggest wtf. And what would be the easiest way for them to show Jon doing nothing but tumbling through the ruins of KL, getting covered in mud and blood and  roar in anger and despair. I doubt that they will give him even a last second to shine.) 

[lakin1013]

 

1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Another interesting read.  Dany defenders should like this one.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/9/18537013/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-daenerys-targaryen-mad-queen

 

These articles, shy of just 2 episodes to the very end, are voicing what folks are saying here.  The show is abandoning its logic, storylines, and the arcs for actors in order to come to an END.   We are rushing headlong to an END that is becoming sloppy and stupid.  Want evidence?  Starbucks making an appearance in one episode, and in After the Episode, we are being told that Dany 'forgot' about Euron's navy.  And those are just 2 examples, from a previous episode.  

So, here we are, close to the finale, and it looks like this end might be really crummy.   I am hoping, with fingers crossed, that HBO released all of these spoilers to confuse us and that something really good is planned to wrap up GoT.  I surely hope so.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

3 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

 

These articles, shy of just 2 episodes to the very end, are voicing what folks are saying here.  The show is abandoning its logic, storylines, and the arcs for actors in order to come to an END.   We are rushing headlong to an END that is becoming sloppy and stupid.  Want evidence?  Starbucks making an appearance in one episode, and in After the Episode, we are being told that Dany 'forgot' about Euron's navy.  And those are just 2 examples, from a previous episode.  

So, here we are, close to the finale, and it looks like this end might be really crummy.   I am hoping, with fingers crossed, that HBO released all of these spoilers to confuse us and that something really good is planned to wrap up GoT.  I surely hope so.

If anyone is mad then it is Cersei.  She is the one taking her people inside the Red Keep to use as human shields.  She is the one who has always been obsessed with wildfire.....first during the preparations of the Battle of the Blackwater ( later Tyrion assumed the duty) and then when she blew up the Sept of Baelor.  Unlike Dany, Cersei didn’t even care if humankind became extinct as long as she could continue being Queen till the end.   Daenerys cared.  Cersei didn’t.  Grey Worm has a greater chance of going mad and rogue than Daenerys IMO.

[Westerosi]

2 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Another interesting read.  Dany defenders should like this one.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/9/18537013/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-daenerys-targaryen-mad-queen

 

Excellent read. 

[Westerosi]

13 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

If anyone is mad then it is Cersei.  She is the one taking her people inside the Red Keep to use as human shields.  She is the one who has always been obsessed with wildfire.....first during the preparations of the Battle of the Blackwater ( later Tyrion assumed the duty) and then when she blew up the Sept of Baelor.  Unlike Dany, Cersei didn’t even care if humankind became extinct as long as she could continue being Queen till the end.   Daenerys cared.  Cersei didn’t.  Grey Worm has a greater chance of going mad and rogue than Daenerys IMO.

Wholeheartedly agree. Varys, Sansa, and even Tyrion are not focusing their outrage on what Cersei has done and what she is doing now. We rarely hear about what happened at the Sept of Balor and the surrounding neighborhoods with all that wild fire. It’s brushed under the rug by D&D. The end result of it was just Cersei becoming queen despite having no legitimate claim. They are not showing outrage that Cersei would use the poor as human shields. It’s all side stepped. The focus is on trying to convince us in the last 3 episodes that Dany is unhinged and scary. It’s pointed out to us that Tyrion is quite literally scared of Dany by Sansa.  Good grief!  He certainly was never scared of Cersei, Tywin, or Joffrey despite the repeated attempts to have him killed. It’s all so contrived that I want to puke.

[longest night]

2 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Another interesting read.  Dany defenders should like this one.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/9/18537013/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-daenerys-targaryen-mad-queen

 

Has that person been watching the same show with the same Daenerys as I have?