Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[T and A]

It may be bogus (and it probably is) but the 3ER being a puppet of the CotF, would fit with Melissandres vision in ADWD. Just sayin .  But it is probably bogus.

[Mystical]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because Jon needed to know his heritage, that's it.  The timing in the show was done very poorly, but its nothing to do w/Bran, it is probably someone else who tells him the books.  

But it's pointless and makes no sense. The 3ER is NOT Bran so the 3ER doesn't care that Jon deserves to know the truth for thruth's sake. 3ER doesn't give a damn about anyone, including Jon. Jon also won't sit the throne so what purpose did the reveal play in the show? The only thing it did was divide everyone and ultimately the destruction of hundreds of thousands. It also ensured that neither Dany nor Jon will sit the throne. But it sure paved the way nicely for the 3ER to become the ruler of Westeros instead...

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

Forget the books. For how the tv show did things is a pretty good theory. It would make the story even sadder, but it is a smart theory.

Yes very very sad and TRAGIC for poor dany and KL 

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

But it's pointless and makes no sense. The 3ER is NOT Bran so the 3ER doesn't care that Jon deserves to know the truth for thruth's sake. 3ER doesn't give a damn about anyone, including Jon. Jon also won't sit the throne so what purpose did the reveal play in the show? The only thing it did was divide everyone and ultimately the destruction of hundreds of thousands. It also ensured that neither Dany nor Jon will sit the throne. But it sure paved the way nicely for the 3ER to become the ruler of Westeros instead...

On the money and he was told at the worst possible time..I don't know whether to be devastated at what could have been. Dany truly will have to take a knife to thd heart for her people for light bringer to be forged ...FFS

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

But where is the sweetness? I admit it is a smart and logical theory...

But it leaves me even sadder! What is next? Arya was the waif all along?

Sweetness...I wish I could tell u...not for jon or dany I think...

Check out bran role - messing up humans by amis in This forum he has done the maths 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But it's pointless and makes no sense. The 3ER is NOT Bran so the 3ER doesn't care that Jon deserves to know the truth for thruth's sake. 3ER doesn't give a damn about anyone, including Jon. Jon also won't sit the throne so what purpose did the reveal play in the show? The only thing it did was divide everyone and ultimately the destruction of hundreds of thousands. It also ensured that neither Dany nor Jon will sit the throne. But it sure paved the way nicely for the 3ER to become the ruler of Westeros instead...

If you assume the show is doing a poor job in hitting the 'major character beats' as GRRM says, then one of the beats is Jon Snow finding out his true heritage.  The 'beat' is that he finds out, not how or who tells him, or even necessarily what the importance is, because it seems very, very unlikely Arya plays any major role in the defeat of the Others in the books.  This was the show doing an abracadabra change to surprise the audience.

[T and A]

8 minutes ago, divica said:

But where is the sweetness? I admit it is a smart and logical theory...

But it leaves me even sadder! What is next? Arya was the waif all along?

I think people should stop with this "Bitersweet" discussion. First, it is not an objective term. Everyone defines it as he wants it. And knowing GRRM writing and his books, he has clearly a more sick definition of "Bitersweet" than, say, I do. Same goes for the showrunners, who think shock elements and subversion are the most important part of telling a story. Second, by the taste of the random guy, we are way past "Bittersweet" by now. 

[Demetri]

There could be a moment of sweetness if actual Bran peeks through for the unnecessarily long death scene but perhaps retains some of his knowledge/was aware of what he was doing. That could be an amazingly powerful scene and could be sweet.

I don't hate the Bran as Great Other theory in book or show verse. Previously, I was able to tender theories without this disclaimer but of course "if it is handled properly" must be said after season 8.

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, T and A said:

I think people should stop with this "Bitersweet" discussion. First, it is not an objective term. Everyone defines it as he wants it. And knowing GRRM writing and his books, he has clearly a more sick definition of "Bitersweet" than, say, I do. Same goes for the showrunners, who think shock elements and subversion are the most important part of telling a story. Second, by the taste of the random guy, we are way past "Bittersweet" by now. 

That's part of why people feel misled though, because yes, the 'man on the street' reaction is that we are far past bittersweet and heading to tragedy.  I feel misled.  When someone says he's aiming for LOTR bittersweet, which was yeah, it had some sad elements, but was overwhelmingly positive especially for the main protagonists, I'm not expecting the major characters lives to be utterly destroyed and their chance for happiness eliminated.

[CrypticWeirwood]

9 minutes ago, Demetri said:

I don't hate the Bran as Great Other theory in book or show verse. Previously, I was able to tender theories without this disclaimer but of course "if it is handled properly" must be said after season 8.

So that means that Melisandre was actually good at interpreting her fire visions?

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's part of why people feel misled though, because yes, the 'man on the street' reaction is that we are far past bittersweet and heading to tragedy.  I feel misled.  When someone says he's aiming for LOTR bittersweet, which was yeah, it had some sad elements, but was overwhelmingly positive especially for the main protagonists, I'm not expecting the major characters lives to be utterly destroyed and their chance for happiness eliminated.

yes bittersweet in LOTR is positive for the main characters, bittersweet is such a misleading term for what we are getting. there is nothing in it for dany above all ' but as sam says, would she sacrifice for her people' cos if this theory is correct that is what she is doing, although unwittingly. yes there is no sweet for the main characters which is ultimately what we all wanted. we did not need the shock and awe this season.

[Mystical]

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If you assume the show is doing a poor job in hitting the 'major character beats' as GRRM says, then one of the beats is Jon Snow finding out his true heritage.  The 'beat' is that he finds out, not how or who tells him, or even necessarily what the importance is, because it seems very, very unlikely Arya plays any major role in the defeat of the Others in the books.  This was the show doing an abracadabra change to surprise the audience.

The point of this show is NOT the characters, as per the showrunners own words, it's the plot. So all I can look at is the plot. And 3ER=evil makes all the sense in the world to me if he ends up as supreme ruler of Westeros. Whether that was the actual intention or not I don't presume to know. But from the way the plot unfolded, the 3ER is clearly no force for good if you think humans=good side. The 3ER chose his time very specifically to reveal this secret. After all, what stopped him from doing it way before then? All he had to do was write a message, attach it to a raven and warg the thing to Dragonstone in S7 to literally fly it into Jon's lap. Or he could have done it from Castle Black when Jon was still in WF in early S7. But no, 3ER waited until Dany was up North and all the other crap was hitting her that was making her lose it.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

poor dany sob sob she was truly fucked ...a real heart breaker...

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The point of this show is NOT the characters, as per the showrunners own words, it's the plot. So all I can look at is the plot. And 3ER=evil makes all the sense in the world to me if he ends up as supreme ruler of Westeros. Whether that was the actual intention or not I don't presume to know. But from the way the plot unfolded, the 3ER is clearly no force for good if you think humans=good side. The 3ER chose his time very specifically to reveal this secret. After all, what stopped him from doing it way before then? All he had to do was write a message, attach it to a raven and warg the thing to Dragonstone to literally fly it into Jon's lap. Or he could have done it from Castle Black when Jon was still in WF. But no, 3ER waited until Dany was up North and all the other crap was hitting her that was making her lose it.

you've already put more thought in the sequence of events than the showrunners did, all that matters is jon needs to know his heritage, thjs is the plot beat, it doesn't matter who tells him, when he finds out as long as it's after his alliance with Dany so it will screw that up, bran is mostly irrelevant to this plot point as i said, he almost surely will not be the one to tell jon in the books.  

i don't think bran will be king either, but it's possible, another 'beat' the show will  have done a terrible job setting up, but I still think this is unlikely given how little they have given bran to do, even for the good since he left the cave.

[T and A]

18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's part of why people feel misled though, because yes, the 'man on the street' reaction is that we are far past bittersweet and heading to tragedy.  I feel misled.  When someone says he's aiming for LOTR bittersweet, which was yeah, it had some sad elements, but was overwhelmingly positive especially for the main protagonists, I'm not expecting the major characters lives to be utterly destroyed and their chance for happiness eliminated.

Agree. Whenever GRRM or the showrunners talked about "bittersweet", before season 8, I thought it will be a sad but nice ending. Knowing GRRM, I knew it will be more sad than LotR. But after reading the leaks, I knew they use a completely different definition. That is why I don't pay too much atention to it, when it comes to the last episode. After the "The bells" we are way past "bittersweet". This is a classic greek tragedy. 

[sweetsunray]

I'm not convinced that Bran = king will be the ending of epi 6. But if it is, nope, it doesn't make him evil necessarily. Let alone if it's in the books. Greenseers are truth-seers and truth-speakers. The whole religion of the Old Gods and worshipping a tree was basically petitioning their cases and grievances, and seeking justice before an all-knowing greenseer. To seek justice basically all they needed to do was drag a criminal before a heart tree and ask "is this guy guilty of this or that?" Kings and Lords are used as judges in Westeros. King's justice. But it's problematic AF, because a king determines you need to die because you have a wart or something. Greenseers deliever greenseer justice. So, Bran being made king in the show, means Westeros will incorporate belief in the Old Gods south once more, and seek justice once more in the old way. 

[longest night]

8 hours ago, Darryk said:

It's so different though, Bran becomes king before Dany and the Others even invade? From where he currently is in the books, it's hard to imagine him ending up on the throne at all, let alone before Dany invades.

I think his original intention was to somehow have Bran be a deposed king that would then return at the end of the series, but him being this omniscient powerful 3EC. That simply wasn't possible, but somehow he's going to try to shoehorn it in at the end of the series anyway.  Daenerys and the Others were always intended to be the major threats.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, longest night said:

I think his original intention was to somehow have Bran be a deposed king that would then return at the end of the series, but him being this omniscient powerful 3EC. That simply wasn't possible, but somehow he's going to try to shoehorn it in at the end of the series anyway.  Daenerys and the Others were always intended to be the major threats.

To be fair, book Bran already sits a throne in the books atm - a weirwood throne, which is what kings of old sat on as well, living an unbelievably long life. And the inheritance isn't their children, but fate choosing some future child with greenseer ability.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

Might also explain how bran/3er treated meera on winterfell also and it ties into the nissa nissa thing 

[longest night]

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not convinced that Bran = king will be the ending of epi 6. But if it is, nope, it doesn't make him evil necessarily. Let alone if it's in the books. Greenseers are truth-seers and truth-speakers. The whole religion of the Old Gods and worshipping a tree was basically petitioning their cases and grievances, and seeking justice before an all-knowing greenseer. To seek justice basically all they needed to do was drag a criminal before a heart tree and ask "is this guy guilty of this or that?" Kings and Lords are used as judges in Westeros. King's justice. But it's problematic AF, because a king determines you need to die because you have a wart or something. Greenseers deliever greenseer justice. So, Bran being made king in the show, means Westeros will incorporate belief in the Old Gods south once more, and seek justice once more in the old way. 

“If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.” 

-George R.R.  Martin, in regards to his inability to have a time skip.

You can tell there's a heavy bias in GRRM's writing towards the old gods religion. Which is fine if you only think it's a bias in the manner of POV characters. However, if you consider that 'greenseeing' is suppose to be representative as form enlightenment that only a certain powerful elite can obtain, so they can rule over the "ignorant masses". That only those with such enlightenment have the knowledge to lead the people, everyone else are either misguide fools, sadistic evil people, or puppets of the greenseers. The misguided fools and the sadistic evil people are there to show why these enlightened powerful elite must be the ones to rule over the ignorant masses for peace to reign.

Yet also all that comes at a cost of "necessary" blood sacrifices for the "greater good".  Blood sacrifices were given to the weirwood trees, Bran is eating Jojen paste, and of course all the collateral damage such as Hodor which in the show was clearly intentional. 

The 3EC is incredibly powerful with mind controlling abilities, and has the ability to see what everyone has done or ever will do. Having something like that as king is essentially equivalent to as I said before, some form of the beginning of a dystopian novel, not the end of a fantasy epic.

 The symbolism is all there. You have 'Lightbringer' which is essentially Lucifer, and a bringer of enlightenment in Masonic and neo-pagan mythologies. It is also forged by a blood sacrifice. The person who would wield Lightbringer would fight back the darkness aka "ignorance". Stannis' fake Lightbringer said by Aemon as how it would only lead the world further into darkness.