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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

In your fantasy, sure. In mine too. That's not what happened on the show though. My first thought when Bran showed up at the wall in the S7 premiere was 'wtf are you doing, you are marked and will negate the magic in the wall and bring it down if you cross'. But it's like D&D didn't even remember that. The NK doesn't need a dragon to get past the wall in that case, him and his army could just climb over it then if it was free of magic thanks to Bran.

Well a dragon is a pretty good bonus. Climbing the wall would have allowed the NW to defend it, probably.

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24 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

That's not exactly true, they were marching south. IIRC, they had gotten to a point some 20 miles North of the wall where the mountain shaped like an arrowhead was. Are we to assume that once they reached the wall, they were all just going to have a picnic? 

They have been marching all over the North for several Seasons. And several times close to the wall. So this tells me nothing. The opener of S1E01 showed them not far from the wall when the NW brothers encountered them. When they spared Sam, we saw them assembling right at the wall and nothing happened. In S7 we saw them marching sure but that wasn't anything new they were doing. And they weren't that close to the wall (compared to when they spared Sam) in 7x06. So why would I assume that this time would be different from all the other times in 7 Seasons when we saw them marching or being right at the wall?

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Just now, NonoNono said:

Well a dragon is a pretty good bonus. Climbing the wall would have allowed the NW to defend it, probably.

What NW? The 5 guys still there at what, one castle along a 700 mile long wall that could be climbed anywhere along those 700 miles? And 5 NW guys versus 100k army of the dead? COME ON.

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13 minutes ago, Mystical said:

They have been marching all over the North for several Seasons. And several times close to the wall. So this tells me nothing. The opener of S1E01 showed them not far from the wall when the NW brothers encountered them. When they spared Sam, we saw them assembling right at the wall and nothing happened. In S7 we saw them marching sure but that wasn't anything new they were doing. And they weren't that close to the wall (compared to when they spared Sam) in 7x06. So why would I assume that this time would be different from all the other times in 7 Seasons when we saw them marching or being right at the wall?

Because this was the only time the NK himself was with them? Not to mention the magnitude of wights he had in season 7 was 100,000x anything we had seen previously, other than hard home, the last sighting of the NK. Drawing a line from Hardhome to the Mountain shaped like an arrowhead with 100,000 wights in tow suggests what exactly? 

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Here is the thing about the wight dragon, and a huge plot hole you haven't latched onto yet.....................

If he is a wight, he can be defeated by valaryan steel, dragonglass, or...........FIRE. 

Should be a pretty easy kill for drogo. Or Bron with a dragonglass tipped scorpion arrow/spear. 

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Posted (edited)

Re-reading bits of the books:

Quote

That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

If she is forced to leave Winterfell before the battle starts and stays at Dragonstone, pondering what her future holds in front of the fireplace we would be left wondering what she will do. Jon leaves back to Winterfell on Rhaegal, fight and lose at Winterfell, and as the people flee south she comes in, saving them from the White Walkers on their tail.

But this one...

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.

Hopefully that's just Jon, lol.

Edited by NonoNono

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1)

On 3/25/2019 at 6:43 AM, alienarea said:

Since Jon is confirmed as the son of Lyanna Stark (Ice) and Rhaegar Targaryen (Fire), we already have "A Son(g) of Ice and Fire".

A child of Jon and Daenerys would be less ice => doesn't make sense

Makes one wonder whether the Night King is after Jon?

Also, since the fight will be ice vs fire maybe Jon ends up as Nissa Nissa?

I see this supposed asymmetry brought up every so often, but I don't think it's an issue at all. Symbolism is not mathematics. Jon can represent ice when compared to Dany's fire, fire when compared to the White Walkers' ice, and ice & fire by himself, all at the same time.

For the books, Martin indicated that Jon and Dany representing ice and fire, respectively, is one of multiple possible meanings for the title:

Quote

Shaw: As the novels unfold, Jon becomes increasingly identified with the northern cold and ice, just as Dany is closely tied to the southern heat and fire. Will these two ultimately embody the central image of the series, Ice and Fire? 

Martin: That's certainly one way to interpret it. That's for my readers to argue out. That may be one possible meaning. There may be a secondary meaning, or a tertiary meaning as well. 

-Interview with the Dragon

(There are more quotes where Martin alludes to the title having multiple meanings, including another in that same interview.)

And for the show, it's very clear that the union of Jon and Dany is seen as a union of ice and fire:

Quote

MELISANDRE: I've done my part. I've brought ice and fire together. (S7E3)

Quote

From Mel, Dany hears about the great conflict to come for the first time. The Night King, the Army of the Dead. They are real and they are coming. Mel says that Jon Snow, the King in the North, will be crucial in the Great War. And that War will only be won if Ice and Fire come together to create— (Preliminary Outline, EPISODE 702)

Quote

Game of Thrones: Cast Commentary on A Union of Fire and Ice (HBO) - Official video discussing Jon and Dany getting together at the end of Season 7 (and Rhaegar and Lyanna - again, multiple meanings)

Quote

[Taylor:] We were in Malta shooting episode ten of the first season, and the show wasn't a big deal yet and we weren't being very secretive because nobody cared yet, and [Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, "Oh well it's all about Dany and Jon Snow" and at the time I thought, "Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?"

But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we're starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it's circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, "fire and ice."

-'Game of Thrones' director on what George R.R. Martin told him years ago - INSIDER

2) Here is /u/Mr_Freeload's description of one of Jon and Dany's scenes in the Season 8 premiere (although note that some of it could be incomplete, inaccurate, and/or editorialized). The part that I've bolded might be foreshadowing:

Quote

Jon and Danyerys are walking towards the dragon chatting about some shit I forgot, it's not relevant. Probably about Sansa being a bitch to Danyerys or Northerners. Whatever.

They approach the dragons, Rhagael gets close to Jon to sniff him. Danyerys then asks if he would ever ride a dragon, he replies, "how does one ride a dragon". She replies, "By riding it". He then makes a joke that he can fall and die, she smiles back saying, "then it was nice knowing you, Jon Snow".

They ride away, hes sort of struggling at first. Then gets the hang of it. The whole flying scene reminds me of when Jake Sully first flies his Ikran for the first time in Avatar. They fly around, smile at each other and what not.

Jon lands his dragon near a waterfall. Dany follows. Jon looks around and says, "we could live here for a 1000 years and nobody would find us". They kiss, dragons watch. They kiss some more, Jon opens his eyes while kissing and catches both dragons starring at them (also Bran somewhere probably). Rhaegal was grinning? Growling? Had his teeth showing, it was a funny moment.

Scene cuts off - they definitely fucked after. Maybe I made it seem like they were getting away to go fuck somewhere, but that could also be true.

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9 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Here is the thing about the wight dragon, and a huge plot hole you haven't latched onto yet.....................

If he is a wight, he can be defeated by valaryan steel, dragonglass, or...........FIRE. 

Should be a pretty easy kill for drogo. Or Bron with a dragonglass tipped scorpion arrow/spear. 

No. The Dragon is not a wight. The NK touched him, just like he touched Crasters son in Season 4. This means that he is a Dragon version of the White Walkers, who cant be killed by fire. They can be killed by Dragonglass and valyrian Steel though. I assume you can kill Viserion with those weapons too. But you can also kill Dannys Dragons with regular big spears. It is just very hard, since they are huge and fly away. The same thing will be for Viserion. You can try kill him with Dragonglass, but it is very difficult to reach him. Not to mention that he is mounted by a supernatural being who is absurdly strong.

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2 hours ago, T and A said:

No. The Dragon is not a wight. The NK touched him, just like he touched Crasters son in Season 4. This means that he is a Dragon version of the White Walkers, who cant be killed by fire. They can be killed by Dragonglass and valyrian Steel though. I assume you can kill Viserion with those weapons too. But you can also kill Dannys Dragons with regular big spears. It is just very hard, since they are huge and fly away. The same thing will be for Viserion. You can try kill him with Dragonglass, but it is very difficult to reach him. Not to mention that he is mounted by a supernatural being who is absurdly strong.

I tend to agree here. Viserion is probably a WW dragon based on the way he was created (I suspect the NK has powers we have not seen yet up to the end of S7). He is immune to regular fire, including regular dragonfire. Daenerys and her remaining two dragons are also immune to regular fire and dragonfire. However Viserion's flame is blue fire, which is hotter than regular fire or regular dragonfire. Why else would they make his flame blue. I would not be surprised if we find this out in the battle for WF. Rhaegal (symbolic of Rhaeger T.) will be killed by the NK (symbolic of R.B.) on Viserion. Subsequently Viserion will probably be killed in some fashion in a fight with Drogon who will be mortally wounded. Daenerys will have to put him to sleep in a mercy killing much like she killed Drogo. In an ironic twist, with the dragons all gone, Daenerys will lose her "Targaryen Specialness", as she had stated in her conversation with Jon in the dragonpit scene in S7E7. While she herself may remain immune to fire, in every other respect she will just be a human like everyone else. I guess we shall see. Should be very exciting to see what actually happens. 

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Can we move discussions from this thread into unique relevant threads?  This thread isn't for speculation.  The reason I ask is because I think there is some great conversation in here but I don't want to risk being spoiled!  Likewise I am sure those that want spoilers don't want to wade through a load of conversation and debates that aren't relevant.....

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

No. The Dragon is not a wight. The NK touched him, just like he touched Crasters son in Season 4. This means that he is a Dragon version of the White Walkers, who cant be killed by fire. They can be killed by Dragonglass and valyrian Steel though. I assume you can kill Viserion with those weapons too. But you can also kill Dannys Dragons with regular big spears. It is just very hard, since they are huge and fly away. The same thing will be for Viserion. You can try kill him with Dragonglass, but it is very difficult to reach him. Not to mention that he is mounted by a supernatural being who is absurdly strong.

Craster's son was still alive though, the dragon was dead.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Craster's son was still alive though, the dragon was dead.

Yes. But whights are not resurected by touching. The only beings we know that were created like that are the White Walkers. I think, if the Dragon was a wight, the resurection would happen differently. It is just a guess though. But I think it makes the most sense...

Edited by T and A

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, T and A said:

No. The Dragon is not a wight. The NK touched him, just like he touched Crasters son in Season 4. This means that he is a Dragon version of the White Walkers, who cant be killed by fire. They can be killed by Dragonglass and valyrian Steel though. I assume you can kill Viserion with those weapons too. But you can also kill Dannys Dragons with regular big spears. It is just very hard, since they are huge and fly away. The same thing will be for Viserion. You can try kill him with Dragonglass, but it is very difficult to reach him. Not to mention that he is mounted by a supernatural being who is absurdly strong.

I guess that is up for debate, as Crasters children were alive when they were turned, the Dragon was very much dead, like the horses the Others ride, or the Wight Polar Bear. As previously mentioned, I guess it will be whatever they want it to be. But if they have the ability to change something dead into an other, why do they need live children, that part makes no sense. 

Why not just do the same thing to some human corpses and make an army of Others, instead of wights? 

Edited by Error-504

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4 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

While she herself may remain immune to fire, in every other respect she will just be a human like everyone else.

Just your average human with magical fire immunity, lol

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

I guess that is up for debate, as Crasters children were alive when they were turned, the Dragon was very much dead, like the horses the Others ride, or the Wight Polar Bear. As previously mentioned, I guess it will be whatever they want it to be. But if they have the ability to change something dead into an other, why do they need live children, that part makes no sense. 

Why not just do the same thing to some human corpses and make an army of Others, instead of wights? 

I, and probably we all, can only speculate here. Maybe Dragons, by being magical beings, don't need to be alive to become White Walkers. Or maybe the NK has created something new, not a Whight and not a White Walker, but rather an Ice Dragon. Dragons are not regular living beings. They are born by using magic. In case of Dannys Dragons, it was blood magic. Now, you could not resurect a dead fetus by throwing it, yourself and another living being into fire. But it worked with the dragon eggs who where turned to stone. It is (blood) magic that brought them to life. Maybe the NK is using bis magic that brought Viserion to a lifeform similar to the White Walkers, because it was resurected by magic of the White Walkers. And not the regular magic they use to resurect the dead as Whights, but the one the NK used to turn people into White Walkers. 

And by the way: We don't know what the NK wants. We don't know if he wants more White Walkers. We don't know if a regular human being can become a White Walker. Up until now, he only has chosen Crasters babies, for reasons (yet) unnown. He could have attacked Wildling villages and get their babys, if he wanted to. But, as far as we know, he only has chosen Crasters babies. In the books it is not yet mentioned. From the books, we also only know about the fact that a White Walkers wanted Crasters baby. It all points out that a regular human being won't do the deed. I am not sure if the show is gonna reference that though...

Edited by T and A

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1 hour ago, T and A said:

I, and probably we all, can only speculate here. Maybe Dragons, by being magical beings, don't need to be alive to become White Walkers. Or maybe the NK has created something new, not a Whight and not a White Walker, but rather an Ice Dragon. Dragons are not regular living beings. They are born by using magic. In case of Dannys Dragons, it was blood magic. Now, you could not resurect a dead fetus by throwing it, yourself and another living being into fire. But it worked with the dragon eggs who where turned to stone. It is (blood) magic that brought them to life. Maybe the NK is using bis magic that brought Viserion to a lifeform similar to the White Walkers, because it was resurected by magic of the White Walkers. And not the regular magic they use to resurect the dead as Whights, but the one the NK used to turn people into White Walkers. 

And by the way: We don't know what the NK wants. We don't know if he wants more White Walkers. We don't know if a regular human being can become a White Walker. Up until now, he only has chosen Crasters babies, for reasons (yet) unnown. He could have attacked Wildling villages and get their babys, if he wanted to. But, as far as we know, he only has chosen Crasters babies. In the books it is not yet mentioned. From the books, we also only know about the fact that a White Walkers wanted Crasters baby. It all points out that a regular human being won't do the deed. I am not sure if the show is gonna reference that though...

Dragons are magical beings, yes, although I not so sure it's "blood magic". Dany did not perform any rituals, etc. At any rate, it's all speculation, there is nothing definitive on the matters. 

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2 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Dragons are magical beings, yes, although I not so sure it's "blood magic". Dany did not perform any rituals, etc. At any rate, it's all speculation, there is nothing definitive on the matters. 

She did tie the witch to the pyre, could be considered she used her blood sacrifice for the magic.

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On 4/7/2019 at 5:57 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Rhaegar acted recklessly, he didn't even leave a raven or inform people of what he was doing. Rhaegar was oblivious to how his actions could cause dissent in the realm, and that makes him unsympathetic in my eyes. I dont know why there's this Must Defend Rhaegar impulse. He's flawed and he fucked up.

The worst thing was how dishounourably he treated his wife and children. Targaryens got issues.

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Possible spoiler, possible mistake.  But Nickolaj Coster-Waldau was joking around on the Ellen DeGeneres show about the show and said about Bran, 'He becomes the Three-Eyed Raven, this magical creature who can foresee the future, look back, and help save the world, and all because of Jaime Lannister, this great guy.'.

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