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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You didn't answer why those listed items were quality tv or in general, how people critical of the show are missing something important. 

When we criticize the show, we go into (excruciating) detail to explain why we think that. But when people state that it's a good show, they don't address its problems and hand-wave off legit criticisms as "complaining" or "being negative" instead of showing us how we've misjudged the show. 

If you like it, then like it and own it. But don't conflate liking something with its quality. We all like bad stuff sometimes. I like disco and baloney, but I'd never, ever, ever put either of these forward as things of quality that others are wrong for disliking. 

 

I don't understand what you mean by "item". I put the Link to Rotten Tomatoes, which lists both, proffesional and viewers critics. And while some of the casual viewers may like the show, just because they "like it", proffesional critics make big analysis why they like or dislike it. You could just read some, and I would not need to explain it though. And if you compare GoT with individual bad taste like liking disco music, I can not possibly argue with that.

Edited by T and A

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The characters don't have reader/viewer omniscience. Also, did you see the clip in the trailer where people were terrified of the dragons?

I'm not arguing the decision, just the expectation that people should prostrate themselves for her on first sight and ask no questions. They don't know that she's there to help them, they haven't seen the show or read the books and they're not going to be quick to take her word on that. She came to Westeros to conquer. Concurrent to Dany claiming to help them will be Cersei claiming to help when she's doing the opposite. We've been through how many books and how much tv? This is how Westeros works going back thousands of years. It's not gonna change on a dime to give Dany a Mary Sue moment. 

The show's theme from the beginning is how people don't prioritize the important challenges, sometimes for valid reasons and sometimes not (the Game). Dany went through this cycle of disbelief to belief herself. Most of the North and Westeros haven't seen, and of those who've seen 1 ice zombie, it's not like seeing the whole horde. It's the way we're wired (insert your favorite real-life example here). So no, like just about everyone in the series thus far, they don't really understand what's coming except in a very abstract way, and humans are notoriously bad at processing abstractions. We don't understand the gravity of the challenges until it's staring us in the face. And even then some don't see. Jon saw first hand and he still kneeled when it wasn't necessary knowing - KNOWING - it would cause political destabilization at the worst time. The way the theme is treated is making us aware that we have this same flaw irl, and the arguments about the game and rightful claims that posters like you and me get into are telling us that yes, we can be just as blind to stuff as the Westerosi. It's tricking the reader into the same bias the Westerosi had against Jaime all over again. 

 

 

Obviously they need to ask questions. They need to know what happened and what is the current status of the north.

And jon will certainly arrive and say he bent the knee and danny brought her armies, dragonglass and dragons to defend the north and everbody should be at least mildly happy. It was everything jon said they needed and acording to the brillant show every northern lord believes the army of the dead and that they are marching south.

Like you said, the characters aren t omnipresent. They don t know under which conditions jon bent the knee. From their perspective there isn t anything to criticize… Even if they hate the targs she is bringing dragons and hundreds of thousands of soldiers. That was the whole objective of jon going south! Or did they believe that danny should help them and don t demand anything in return?

Just because we are frustated by danny agreeing to defend the north and jon then bending the knee doesn t mean there is a reason for the northern lords to be raising problems. 

Specifically speaking about sansa. Why is she criticizing? if she believes in the dead and that the Wall has fallen because of a wight dragon she should be ecstatic that danny brought 2 dragons and all those soldiers. Wether danny is a good ruler or deserves the throne is completly meaningless at the moment. First they need to survive the coming war and if danny is a problem deal with her later… The only reason I can fanthom is that she doesn t want to lose her power in the north. That she is basically afraid of being powerless again. which is a valid reason, although not a good one.

Edited by divica

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1 hour ago, divica said:

After watching her armies and dragons arriving in winterfell and knowing that the army of the dead are coming what should they do?

They might not like her or being suspicious of her, but they must be gratefull and happy to have so many people to fight the dead. Given the size of her army and situation in the north there wasn t much that could be done. jon had to form an aliance with danny and danny had all the power to decide the terms of the aliance. He would either bend the knee or marry her...

I think the people in the north will be afraid of the coming Winter, but the reality of a zombie army being on the way won't hit them until it's actually there. There a lot of room for the people to fight each other due to the tense situation, lack of food, foreigner armies present (and having to be fed and clothed and all), the dragons, Targaryens, mistrust and hatred, and so on.

The average folk hasn't seen any white walker or wight. I think being grateful will be far from their minds for the most part, until it's too late.

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I think the Northerners just dont want to be trapped between ice and fire, the hammer and the anvil. Dany could really do anything. Save them to burn them later, then it wouldn't even matter. She's a threat that's been building just like the Others. I'm sure they'll view her the same way Cersei views Euron. They'll use her.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, T and A said:

I don't understand what you mean by "item". I put the Link to Rotten Tomatoes, which lists both, proffesional and viewers critics. And while some of the casual viewers may like the show, just because they "like it", proffesional critics make big analysis why they like or dislike it. You could just read some, and I would not need to explain it though. And if you compare GoT with individual bad taste like liking disco music, I can not possibly argue with that.

The items were the things on @divica 's post. I'm asking what we've all missed that makes this quality tv:

the dorne plot

the iron islands plot (after euron appears)

the vale plot (since season 5)

the riverlands plot (whatever it may be since the red wedding)

And even the north plot despite having several of the main characters has serious flaws.

 

Your appeal to critics based just on their say-so is a fallacy called appeal to authority. https://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/

https://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-popularity/

 

Edited by Lollygag

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19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think the Northerners just dont want to be trapped between ice and fire, the hammer and the anvil. Dany could really do anything. Save them to burn them later, then it wouldn't even matter. She's a threat that's been building just like the Others. I'm sure they'll view her the same way Cersei views Euron. They'll use her.

This I could understand. They treating her well while the WW are around and when the war is over trying to create all sorts of problems. 

And please, after all the shit we have seen the northerns do don t tell me it isn t the northern way...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, divica said:

Obviously they need to ask questions. They need to know what happened and what is the current status of the north.

And jon will certainly arrive and say he bent the knee and danny brought her armies, dragonglass and dragons to defend the north and everbody should be at least mildly happy. It was everything jon said they needed and acording to the brillant show every northern lord believes the army of the dead and that they are marching south.

Like you said, the characters aren t omnipresent. They don t know under which conditions jon bent the knee. From their perspective there isn t anything to criticize… Even if they hate the targs she is bringing dragons and hundreds of thousands of soldiers. That was the whole objective of jon going south! Or did they believe that danny should help them and don t demand anything in return?

Just because we are frustated by danny agreeing to defend the north and jon then bending the knee doesn t mean there is a reason for the northern lords to be raising problems. 

Specifically speaking about sansa. Why is she criticizing? if she believes in the dead and that the Wall has fallen because of a wight dragon she should be ecstatic that danny brought 2 dragons and all those soldiers. Wether danny is a good ruler or deserves the throne is completly meaningless at the moment. First they need to survive the coming war and if danny is a problem deal with her later… The only reason I can fanthom is that she doesn t want to lose her power in the north. That she is basically afraid of being powerless again. which is a valid reason, although not a good one.

Bold 1: The leaks say there's loads of PDA and the Northerners were very clear about their wishes in regards to Targs/Dany which Jon just tossed. They'll be able to make some guesses. Hence Sansa (lots of people) asking whether Jon was thinking with his dick. Jon's telling the North to trust the Targ conqueror because he trusts her. And btw, he's :wub: and gettin' some from said person, so it at least looks like there's some seriously clouded judgment there. 

Bold 2: Exactly! Which is why Dany should reject Jon's kneeling when she sees what a distraction it is. She should take the Stannis route and just ask them to give her a chance to prove herself. See? No one's innocent here. Dany's playing the game by accepting Jon's kneeling knowing it causes a mess and she's not just a stranger to the North, but to Westeros. The Northerners should kneel because it's doing the right thing, but that Dany should give up claim of the North (at least for now) somehow never comes up. 

I'm not addressing the rest because I already covered that and it's like I never wrote in the first place. I'll leave you with your "at least mildly happy" expectations. 

Edited by Lollygag

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Just in case anyone is here for actual spoilers (crazy, I know), GRRM gave an interview where he pretty much confirmed that for most of the major characters, the show and the books will end the same.

Quote

"The series has been extremely faithful compared to 97% of all television and movie adaptations, but it's not completely faithful, and it can't be otherwise it would have to run another 5 seasons"

Asked if he's worried that fans will have D&D's ending in their mind's eye

Quote

"I don't think Dan and David's ending will be that different from my ending"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjDentEr9c4&feature=youtu.be

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

The items were the things on @divica 's post. I'm asking what we've all missed that makes this quality tv:

the dorne plot

the iron islands plot (after euron appears)

the vale plot (since season 5)

the riverlands plot (whatever it may be since the red wedding)

And even the north plot despite having several of the main characters has serious flaws.

 

Your appeal to critics based just on their say-so is a fallacy called appeal to authority. https://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/

https://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-popularity/

 

I could continue this arguement. But I will leave it that way. I just don't want to discuss with you anymore. Have a good day.

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5 minutes ago, T and A said:

I could continue this arguement. But I will leave it that way. I just don't want to discuss with you anymore. Have a good day.

I didn't expect any answers. Hope you enjoy the show. 

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Since this is the News, Spoilers, and Leaks thread (hard to tell, I know), when does the Winterfell Battle take place - is it episode 3?

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8 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Since this is the News, Spoilers, and Leaks thread (hard to tell, I know), when does the Winterfell Battle take place - is it episode 3?

Yes, episode 3, directed by Miguel Sapochnik. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/7/2018 at 12:14 PM, jcmontea said:

Didn’t Robb have a whole ton of time invested in him? Way more than the books?

The show was obsessed with pulling off the Red Wedding. It was the #1 goal, besides getting on the air in the first place. At least for D&D, if not HBO. 

In order to do that they needed a strong Robbb character.

Edited by darmody

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6 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Oh, it's your favorite, so that makes it a flawless show?  I'm sorry but a show can be successful despite obvious defects in construction, coherence, storytelling, whatever. 

btw, every show with a lot of nudity and sex will make a big audience. We all know that tits, ultra violence and dragons are the main attractions of this show for a large part of the audience. Not the Dorne plot…

 

I never said GOT was flawless, but if I decided to only watch flawless shows, I would never turn on my television, as such a thing does not exist. I judge a show by seeing if the positives outweigh the negatives, and for GOT, that is most definitely the case.

First of all, you have no idea why the general audience are attracted to this show, so don’t pretend that you do. Second, if achieving high viewership and becoming one of the most successful shows in history was so easy, everyone would do it.

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If you like it, then like it and own it. But don't conflate liking something with its quality. We all like bad stuff sometimes. I like disco and baloney, but I'd never, ever, ever put either of these forward as things of quality that others are wrong for disliking. 

Quality is subjective. I like GOT because I believe it to be high quality. It’s that simple.

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1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

Quality is subjective. I like GOT because I believe it to be high quality. It’s that simple.

I don't have a problem with you liking it and you should be left alone about that. 

 

But this idea of quality is circular reasoning. It's simple for you, but everyone else is :blink: as we aren't mind readers. What is anyone supposed to do with that? 

Poster 1: Loooooonnnnnnnngggggggggg list of things in the show which don't work at all. 

Poster 2: Ignoring the long list above and offering no counterpoint, says it's still a quality show with no further explanation. 

Poster 1: :shocked:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

???????????? 

 

Two things wrong with this.

1) Sansa didn't say Dany wasn't the rightful queen of the North, she said she wasn't the rightful queen, which would imply of the seven kingdoms.  And if Dany is Jon's love interest, I would say she has the inside track at this as well.

2) I never said I though Sansa was speculating either she or Cersie was the rightful queen, rather, If not Dany, then who? Sansa or Cersie was my speculation, because nobody else comes to mind. 

 

My apologies, I could have worded it better, I was in a hurry at the time. 

As to whether or not the show (as much as the I love the show, there are times I don't agree with how they portray certain things) makes a big deal out of the North disproving of Jon bending the knee (Jon himself admitted to Dany they would'nt like it, but would come to appreciate her), my argument is it is much to do about nothing, period. It's really rather idiotic for the Northerners do so, in light of current circumstances. 

They are already in open rebellion against Cersei ( A recent development I might add). Declaring for Dany gives them an Ally against the WW's and against Cersei. The North would have zero chance of surviving against either, without Dany's help (the enemy of my enemy). And should the combined forces of the North And Dany's army manage to prevail in both wars, and find Dany's terms un-agreeable (once she becomes Queen of Westeros), there is nothing to prevent them from once again claiming independence (you know, like they just did) and being in open rebellion against Dany. 

But unlike the Northern Lords, Jon seems to understand that the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is the survival of his people (Jamie seems to understand that as well, even going farther than Jon), and all people for that matter. Everything else is inconsequential. A point you just can't seem to get over. a point the Northern Lords themselves, if they had a brain amongst them would understand. In other words, a more realistic reaction when they learn of the news about Jon bending the knee to Dany should be more akin to "So what" or "lets worry about that later", rather than anything else the show decides to spoon feed us. And yes, I am sure the show will delve into that for a bit, but if they make a big deal out of it, they are doing a disservice to the plot line. What I think will happen is this will be a very minor issue (some grumbling etc) and be resolved rather quickly. And if Sansa is to be the one making the biggest deal out of it, it goes to show how completely clueless she really is about the bigger picture. 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Instead of trying to change the subject, the correct response would be to tell me why Dany burning the Tarlys doesn't raise issues over her being crazy like her Dad. Tell me why burning them was smarter than holding them captive especially in the light of so much book and show context to the contrary and why she didn't have any other choice as you claim (rewatch the clip below). And also please address why the show is making a huge deal over Dany doing this if it's as you imply, no big deal and won't come up when Dany's at Winterfell (contrary to the leaks which were confirmed by people who were at the premiere btw). 

Also, give another think about the circumstances surrounding Mance and Olenna both in show and out. Those examples aren't helping your point. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXGBZ1s5k9Q

Per the video, Westeros has been given very solid reasons to question Dany. It can't be brushed off as those stupid Westerosi, stupid Northerners, stupid Starks, stupid Sansa. 

I didn't change the subject. I put it in perspective. There is no Geneva convention in Westeros. This is a story roughly based in mid-evil times. Get over your 21st century morality, it is not relevant to the conversation. Do you think Rob Stark took prisoners? Or Ned and Robert? On occasion they might take a hostage, if that person where of significant strategical value, Otherwise bend the knee or die. That's the way it was done. Losers didn't get a pat on the back and a participation trophy then sent home. They don't tie up a significant portion of their own forces to march them to a POW camp, back at their home base either. 

My Mance and Olenna circumstances do help my point, your inability to understand the point is not a problem of mine, it is yours. The point is, bend the knee or die is perfectly acceptable in THAT SOCIETY. 

So the fact that Randyl and Dickon were executed is a non-starter. Or at least it should be. The only thing in question then is the manner in which they were executed. Dead is dead in my book, and personally I don't see a big issue with it. Would it have been an issue if they did it Ned Stark style and cut off their heads instead? Would you feel better about it then? We all know how seriously Ned takes honor. How would he have reacted to Randyl Tarleys betrayal of their Liege lord? I can assure you he would have killed them himself. Ned Stark style. 

Which then leaves us with the manor of execution, death by dragon fire. That is the only part of your whole argument that has anything to stand on (and even that is tenuous at best). Given the history of her father, yes, Dany could have chosen a better method. But in my book, so what. Thanks for the video btw, it actually makes my argument much stronger. Before the execution, roughly half the captured forces were refusing to bend the knee, after the execution, they all did. Dany's display, though barbaric as you might think it was, saved many lives.  And it is not as if Randayl did'nt have other options, for a moment, he was even offered the chance to take the Black, an option Dany was considering. He refused. It's his own dam fault. He was daring her to execute him. 

And the fact Tyrion was lamenting over the dead Lannister/Tarely soldiers and the manner in which they died, is laughable. Does he think the soldiers he killed in the Blackwater Bay battle died any differently? 

Or should he decide to betray Dany (as some rumors have suggested) and ally with Cersei, who can forget this:

Randyl Tarley had no problems allying with Cersei, even after this atrocity, now did he? And those weren't even soldiers that died in that catastrophe, yet Randyl Tarley didn't care. 

Your argument is laughable, inconsistent, and totally lacking in any understanding of the realities of war in the time period. 

Edited by Error-504

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13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You didn't answer why those listed items were quality tv or in general, how people critical of the show are missing something important. 

When we criticize the show, we go into (excruciating) detail to explain why we think that. But when people state that it's a good show, they don't address its problems and hand-wave off legit criticisms as "complaining" or "being negative" instead of showing us how we've misjudged the show. 

I read some critics that went into details and many have facts wrong or interpret things different than others. They often compare to the earlier seasons but fail to see the flaws in those, partly because they also read the more detailed books. Some critiques just do it because it makes them feel smart when in fact, they can't follow the story without GRRM's hand guiding them. The shows has some flaws but it's still excellent.

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The items were the things on @divica 's post. I'm asking what we've all missed that makes this quality tv:

the dorne plot

the iron islands plot (after euron appears)

the vale plot (since season 5)

the riverlands plot (whatever it may be since the red wedding)

And even the north plot despite having several of the main characters has serious flaws.

It's just too broad a question. 

Yeah, Dorne sucked and the Sandsnakes actresses were terrible. D&D know it and they redeemed themselves with one line: "let the grown women speak". At least they got the cruellest death.

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